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NYT: Gay Marriage a Tough Sell with Blacks in Maryland

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ivysaur12

Banned
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/16/us/maryland-gay-marriage-faces-black-skepticism.html?_r=1&smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto

ANNAPOLIS, Md. — As a bill legalizing same-sex marriage in Maryland hurtles toward a vote in the legislature this week, a coalition lobbying for its passage has focused much of its efforts on a group of Democrats who could potentially scuttle its success: African-Americans.

It is the most serious attempt by advocates for same-sex marriage to win over blacks, who have traditionally been skeptical, and whose support is critical for the bill’s passage in this state, where nearly a third of the population is African-American, a far higher share than in the broader population.

The campaign includes videos of well-known African-American Marylanders, including Michael Kenneth Williams, an actor from the television series “The Wire,” and Mo’nique, a Baltimore-born actress; an editorial in The Afro; and conversations in churches and union halls, where most members are black.

The Human Rights Campaign and the Service Employees International Union have sent dozens of workers and volunteers, many of them African-American, across the state to talk about the issue. Particular attention is being paid to Baltimore and Prince George’s County, organizers said, two majority-black areas where skepticism has been strong.

It is uncertain whether the effort will lead to the bill’s passage; a similar bill failed in the House last year without coming to a vote. But it has had one clear effect, that of opening a difficult conversation about homosexuality among one group that has traditionally shied away from talking about it.

“It’s a very sensitive subject in the black community,” said Ezekiel Jackson, a political organizer for the 1199 Service Employees International Union in Maryland, who has been meeting with members, mostly health care workers, to persuade them to support the bill. “The culture is different. Gay people got pushed off into their own circle. Instead of dealing with it, they just lived their lives among like minds, apart.”

Much of the hesitation, black advocates of the bill say, has its roots in the churches, whose influence is strong among many African-Americans. And while the overwhelming majority of black clergy in the state still strongly oppose same-sex marriage — they held a rally here in the state capital last month to make that point — a few young pastors have come out in support.

“This was an issue I knew I could not avoid,” said the Rev. Delman Coates, 39, one of two Baptist preachers who testified in support of the bill in a hearing last week. “Clergy leaders have been organizing against this, and I didn’t want my silence to sound like consent.”

The soul-searching in Maryland on same-sex marriage shows just how delicate the issue can be for Democrats around the country who count on strong African-American support at the polls.

It presents a tricky equation for President Obama, who cannot risk depressing turnout among blacks, as their votes will be critical in what is shaping up to be a closely fought campaign. Mr. Obama, who has in the past opposed same-sex marriage, has said his views are “evolving.” In July, he endorsed a bill to repeal the law that limits the legal definition of marriage to a union between a man and a woman.

Among those opposing the bill in Maryland is Pastor Joel Peebles of Jericho City of Praise, a megachurch in Prince George’s County. “The black community is watching with a great deal of concern regarding how our legislators vote on this bill,” he said. “Their decision will be strongly in the mind of the voters when they go to the polls.”

Maryland’s Democrats are sharply divided by race on the issue. A Washington Post poll published on Jan. 30 found that 71 percent of white respondents supported it, while 24 percent did not. Among blacks, 41 percent were supportive, while 53 percent were opposed. African-Americans are an important constituency here: their share of the population — 29 percent — is greater than in many Southern states, including Alabama and South Carolina, according to the Brookings Institution.


In the Maryland House, the bill needs 71 votes to pass. Only two Republicans have pledged their support; the rest are expected to oppose the measure. Of the 98 Democrats in the House, as many as 30 are said to be undecided, a majority of them African-Americans.
Still, advocates are cautiously optimistic. Gov. Martin O’Malley, a Democrat, proposed the bill and has pushed it energetically, in the fashion of Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo of New York.

“There’s been an evolution here in our state on this issue,” he said in an interview. “The wave of opinion on this is pretty unmistakable.”

But resistance runs deep in the faith community. Last year, several traditional black churches formed the Maryland Marriage Alliance, an umbrella group opposed to the bill that includes the Maryland Catholic Conference.

“Households are going to be turned upside down because of this,” said the Rev. Ralph A. Martino, senior pastor at First Church of Christ (Holiness) USA in Washington, who attacked Mr. Coates’s position on a radio show.

Mr. Coates acknowledged that his position was unpopular, but said he was trying to give people a way to accept the bill by presenting it as a matter of rights, not religious doctrine. He said that most in his congregation — about 8,000 people in Prince George’s County — seemed to understand the distinction, and that the loudest opposition had come from other pastors.

“People in the pews are much farther along than those in the pulpit,” he said.

The Rev. Larry Brumfield, a pastor in Baltimore who has a weekly radio show on gay issues that focuses on a black audience, agreed. Still, he said that many churchgoers adopt the views of their pastors, who in traditional black churches in Maryland are still almost entirely opposed to the bill. That makes Mr. Brumfield, an African-American, “feel the need to be extra vocal.”

“It really bothers me how black people can be so insensitive to oppression,” he said. “They use the same arguments that were used against us by the segregationists in the 1950s.”

Whatever the bill’s fate, the process of talking about it has changed something for black people here, supporters say. Mr. Jackson, the union worker, said a colleague had come into his office recently and broken down in tears. Her daughter is gay, the woman said, and they had never spoken of it, choosing instead to pretend it was not there. Soon after, she called her daughter, Mr. Jackson said, and told her she accepted her.

“For the first time, many people who were not able to talk about it are seeing how important it is, and are talking,” said Tawanna P. Gaines, a Democratic lawmaker who supports the bill. “People are saying, ‘Here’s an opportunity for me to no longer have to lie about this.’ ”

Race and sexual orientation are both very sensitive topics. I thought this was an intriguing and timely article and brings up some uncomfortable conversations that need to happen.

My one issues is that she fails to talk about some of the racism within the gay community. I've found that the gay community has done very little (until recently) to reach out to people of faith and other minority groups. I've been very discouraged by the conversations I've had with other gay people about race and sexual orientation. My own roommate
who I hate for a myriad of reasons and am forced to live with until my lease is up
has said some incredibly racist things, especially the few times that I've gone on dates with non-white men.

So, don't be stupid. Be respectful.
 

Door2Dawn

Banned
tumblr_lxjmakjA3b1rn1xxfo1_250.gif


But yeah, black people are very religious, so it doesn't come to a surprise that the majority are against gay marriage.
 

stufte

Member
Race aside, I'll never understand why equal rights for citizens are ever put to any kind of vote...
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Race aside, I'll never understand why equal rights for citizens are ever put to any kind of vote...

There is no popular vote here, this is about getting enough votes to pass the lower chamber of Maryland's legislature for the governor signature.

There is a referendum process in Maryland, but it's very rigid and hard to obtain. It's only happened a handful of times in the state's history.


Is there a way to market gay marriage to black people better?

Make a bigger effort to get people of faith on board. Have well-known and respected black leaders come out for equality. Have more visible out black people. The LGBT community has done a terrible job in the past, usually going with the "well, we're both minorities, they should support us" approach. Which has failed. Miserably. Like it or not, it's the gay community's job build bridges with the black community in order to gain support.
 

Pollux

Member
Given their history of being persecuted, one would think that they'd have a greater understanding of discrimination.

This is what I was thinking.

Ivysaur, you mention the gay community should do more to reach out to people of faith...do they not as it is now? Sorry if that question made no sense.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
This is what I was thinking.

Ivysaur, you mention the gay community should do more to reach out to people of faith...do they not as it is now? Sorry if that question made no sense.

From observing the gay rights organizations, they all do a fantastically terrible job at grassroots support and campaigning. There's a lot of elitism, especially towards groups that have historically shunned them.

I had to work with various gay rights groups in the past, from college groups to larger state-wide and national ones, and the microcosm that we worked in showed me that people were very unwilling to go outside of their comfort zone in order to drum up support.

Obviously, there's only so much you can do if the other people aren't willing to meet you half way to at least start a conversation. But people of faith are the key towards helping a larger acceptance of LGBT people in society. The fact that gay rights group don't seem interested in trying to start that conversation is mind boggling.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Make a bigger effort to get people of faith on board. Have well-known and respected black leaders come out for equality. Have more visible out black people. The LGBT community has done a terrible job in the past, usually going with the "well, we're both minorities, they should support us" approach. Which has failed. Miserably. Like it or not, it's the gay community's job build bridges with the black community in order to gain support.

Seems like a struggle. But I do like your line of thinking - the problem is, gay people are like any other group of people - filled with a large diverse group of opinions. Trying to get unity in how gay people address the problem is something that would be super duper difficult.
 

Pollux

Member
From observing the gay rights organizations, they all do a fantastically terrible job at grassroots support and campaigning. There's a lot of elitism, especially towards groups that have historically shunned them.

I had to work with various gay rights groups in the past, from college groups to larger state-wide and national ones, and the microcosm that we worked in showed me that people were very unwilling to go outside of their comfort zone in order to drum up support.

Obviously, there's only so much you can do if the other people aren't willing to meet you half way to at least start a conversation. But people of faith are the key towards helping a larger acceptance of LGBT people in society. The fact that gay rights group don't seem interested in trying to start that conversation is mind boggling.

Got it. Thanks for the response. If that's the case I'll admit I'm just as confused as you are.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Seems like a struggle. But I do like your line of thinking - the problem is, gay people are like any other group of people - filled with a large diverse group of opinions. Trying to get unity in how gay people address the problem is something that would be super duper difficult.

The problem is that the leadership of larger gay rights group are not diverse groups of people. The ones with the funds that are throwing thousands of dollars around on ad campaigns and lobbying groups to win support for marriage equality? They're mostly elitist with their noses turned up at anyone who shows concern about support marriage equality.

If we really want to start expediting the process so marriage equality can be a reality beyond New England, this is something that NEEDS to happen.

Got it. Thanks for the response. If that's the case I'll admit I'm just as confused as you are.

This even manifested itself in my undergrad experience. Instead of focusing on support within Greek communities and communities of faith, the gay rights group mostly wanted to collaborate within a bubble of previous support and acceptance, without any initiative to expand beyond a comfort zone. It's the same issue, I think, that many gay people had with Obama versus Hilary in the primary.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
California, Washington and Iowa all say hi.

You mean Washington and Iowa. You can thank the worst grassroots organization since the McCain campaign for a loss of marriage equality in California, which is exactly the point. No effort was really made to court people of faith or of color. And there was no understanding about the importance of faith within these communities. It was a huge clusterfuck.
 

Prax

Member
Given their history of being persecuted, one would think that they'd have a greater understanding of discrimination.
My somewhat wildly uneducated guess is--besides the religiousity aspect, which plays a huuuge role--is that maybe formerly oppressed minority groups (blacks in this case) do want to associate themselves with or help any currently oppressed groups (LGBT people in this case) for two reasons:

1) Fear that they will get dragged back into the fray (so they want nothing to do with fighting for rights anymore)

2) Feel they are "done" with their struggle and that other oppressed groups need to "earn" their rights with the same amont of hardship or even more. This may also translate into overcompensatory elititist attitudes and more fervent "backlash oppression" against currently oppressed groups. Sometimes it seems like a "HAHA! Now that I have some power, it's MY turn to be a huge bigot!".

This also works for how a racial group can gain a bunch of rights or influence but still be hypocritically racist towards smaller racial minority groups.

I otherwise don't get it.

EDIT:
I feel bad that this post may come off as offensive and makes it seems like I believe my terrible explanations.... so let me clarify:
They are not real explanations. I don't actually believe that's what is going through most of people's minds when they dismiss or fight against rights for others. And I know racism is still very prevalent.
These are "explanations" without using religious influence as a factor. So of course they are bad explanations, and it doesn't make sense unless religion was the big focus of the problem. (And other cultural definitions of sexual orientation and what it means, things about gender and power etc etc--more nuance and complication!!).

So I'm sorry if my "explanations" were very uninformed and caused offense to anyone. It's obviously meant to sound really stupid!
Though I do WONDER if there are some truths in them.
 

akira28

Member
To be clear, it's really only the black churches(with outside support from you know who), who have been pushing to GOTV against gay marriage in its different legal iterations. They worked hard to try to block it in DC, with radio commercials and concert parties and community meetings and such. And they were pretty much panned in my opinion. They've been more successful in Maryland though. The trick is, lots of black communities are built around churches, and there are a WHOLE lot of churches. My folks live out in the country of southern Maryland, and over the span of 25 years 5 mega churches within a 10 mile radius have sprouted up, set to fit over 1000 people, and others able to allow 500 or so. And while the religious stance on gay marriage is pretty clear, even some churches have begun to support it and accept it. But then those churches get attacked by other churches, and lose members, and gain members, it's like a religious/political battle.

There is a popular liberal Christian church that even began holding gay union ceremonies in anticipation of a gay marriage change, but the proposal was delayed in state congress. And of course, Maryland politicians are potential members of these prominent churches throughout the area, since it allows them even greater access to the voting public to be visible in the church community. So it's not even a racial thing, outside of the point that black communities tend to be fairly Christian. Conservative Christian dollars from outside the community are trying to help prevent the tide from turning. I'd say concentrate on the political side, and focus on the politicians creating the logjam. Preachers are making their stances, but the community isn't automatically against gay marriage at all.

So let's keep it clean gentlemen.

"HAHA! Now that I have some power, it's MY turn to be a huge bigot!".
no. no. no...
 

akira28

Member
I'll put a few things out there.

There's no assumed alliance, but there is an actual alliance. Many times I hear within the politically active corners of the black community about their connection and support for LGBT and women's rights issues. But...there was no assumed alliance back in the 60s. Gays were on both sides of the Civil Rights issue, obviously. And as an example, further back with women's suffrage. Blacks in the 19th century supported women's suffrage along with negro suffrage, and women's suffrage split with that support, many turning around to silently or actively support Jim Crow.

So it's better to actively work on strengthening existing connections instead of assuming relative similarities will carry things through. Realize there are multiple factions and different influences at play instead of making it a monolithic issue based on race and sexual orientation.

I can say from living in Maryland that most people here are complete morons and will oppose gay marriage.

nice. you're a great help. keep it up.
 
Given their history of being persecuted, one would think that they'd have a greater understanding of discrimination.
This is a thought that I believe most people will have. However The church has been imbedded into our culture and plays a big influence socially. The Church was a way of gathering and getting to know one another when they had no one to turn to, especially in the 1700's. African Americans were trying to find was of acceptance and Christianity was one of those ways to feel socially accepted. With that said, of course the church would have such an impact on our community.

PBS has a great 4 part Narrative Called Africans in America. Several sections in here explain the churches influence and importance to the community historically. Especially in parts 2 and 3. The whole thing is great if anyone is interested.
It's really unfortunate however. The LGBT community would have progressed even further if another community as powerful and influential as the black community was more accepting of homosexuality. Not trying to say all or most don't approve or anything or its all because of the church, but from personal experiences being who I am, those numbers do not surprise me at all :(.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
This is a thought that I believe most people will have. However The church has been imbedded into our culture and plays a big influence socially. The Church was a way of gathering and getting to know one another when they had no one to turn to, especially in the 1700's. African Americans were trying to find was of acceptance and Christianity was one of those ways to feel socially accepted. With that said, of course the church would have such an impact on our community.

PBS has a great 4 part Narrative Called Africans in America. Several sections in here explain the churches influence and importance to the community historically. Especially in parts 2 and 3. The whole thing is great if anyone is interested.
It's really unfortunate however. The LGBT community would have progressed even further if another community as powerful and influential as the black community was more accepting of homosexuality. Not trying to say all or most don't approve or anything or its all because of the church, but from personal experiences being who I am, those numbers do not surprise me at all :(.

While the black community has a long way to go towards accepting gay and lesbian people, the LGBT community needs to do more informed outreach to people of faith and of color. What they're doing now... it's not enough.
 

Agent Icebeezy

Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
Its not even about the religious aspect of it. I'm black and I've observed this numerous amounts of times in that most black men would rather be called the N word than the F word. Its about masculinity and other machoism that are stupid at the end of the day.
 
I don't see how any black person can vote against gay marriage and still consider themselves morally right without employing some serious cognitive dissonance.

I would think it would be the duty of people who went through oppression to vote for it if they're going to vote at all.
 

akira28

Member
Its not even about the religious aspect of it. I'm black and I've observed this numerous amounts of times in that most black men would rather be called the N word than the F word. Its about masculinity and other machoism that are stupid at the end of the day.

I don't think a personal insult against someone's race and human equality, or someone's sexuality and manhood would be well accepted, one way or the other, really. And homophobia doesn't even have to enter into it. It's an insulting slur one way or the other, when coming from someone who is not a member of that particular group.

And it's not like people were deaf to the anti-black backlash post Prop 9. So people who might have been on the fence, or might have supported it elsewhere got to see something they wouldn't have expected coming from the gay community. But there's racism even within the gay community itself, so it was only a surprise to some, like those who were surprised that some black people would actively oppose gay marriage.

bottom line: to say "you're black, you should support gays" is as much a leap and an assumption as saying "you're gay, you should support blacks". It didn't happen that way in the past, and it doesn't happen that way today.
 

Agent Icebeezy

Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
I am also told that it's a strong old/young split within the black community when it comes to gay rights.

I'm 32 now. Relatives try to hit me with the shit they hear in church. I'm not gay, I've always loved big boobs, the color blue and cinnamon. I can't explain it. I was born that way. The same thing is with people that are born and eventually grow to have same sex relationships. They are born that way and there is nothing wrong about that. I just wish people would get off of their high-horse on this topic and let the community breathe and give them the same rights that everyone else has.
 

jaxword

Member
But then those churches get attacked by other churches, and lose members, and gain members, it's like a religious/political battle.

Man, that's not "like", that IS a religious/political battle.

That's all this truly is, at heart. A religious/political platform to gain more influence from people. Take a stance, people will follow, especially with one as religiously poisoned as sexuality.
 

Sadsic

Member
nice. you're a great help. keep it up.

I'm bisexual and I would love for gay marriage to be legal here, but seriously, most people here really do stay within their own little world here. It's really hard to go between the gay and straight worlds here; I moved up here a year ago and people seem to be shocked that I identify as bi and not either gay or straight.

However I'm in Southern Maryland, and I'm told Northern Maryland is much less abjectly bad.
 

akira28

Member
I used like, because in my experience, religious and political battles came with weapons, bloodshed, political crackdowns, and communities turning against each other along those lines, etc.

this is more of a struggle than a battle, but it's 'like' a battle in lots of ways.

However I'm in Southern Maryland, and I'm told Northern Maryland is much less abjectly bad.

Maryland is divided up in a lot of different ways. Expressly Southern and North Western Maryland still have the Klan. But there are liberal parts of Montgomery and Prince George's county where gay members of the community are accepted. Since Washington DC has a pretty populous gay community, it only makes sense that the DC suburbs would have higher numbers as well. Communities like gay households because they tend to be high earning tax payers and also spend money locally. The only real pushback is from the churches and their effects on politics. So people really need to choose their targets. In my experiences, most people are very ambivalent or even apathetic about gays, they don't care one way or the other. And it's probably best to tip them towards acceptance than to assume from the outside that they're anti-gay because of their vocal church leaders.

The best way to get people out of their bubbles is to invite them to step out. But what I'm seeing is people pressing in from the outside to make those bubbles even tighter.
 

PogiJones

Banned
The problem is that the leadership of larger gay rights group are not diverse groups of people. The ones with the funds that are throwing thousands of dollars around on ad campaigns and lobbying groups to win support for marriage equality? They're mostly elitist with their noses turned up at anyone who shows concern about support marriage equality.

If we really want to start expediting the process so marriage equality can be a reality beyond New England, this is something that NEEDS to happen.


This even manifested itself in my undergrad experience. Instead of focusing on support within Greek communities and communities of faith, the gay rights group mostly wanted to collaborate within a bubble of previous support and acceptance, without any initiative to expand beyond a comfort zone. It's the same issue, I think, that many gay people had with Obama versus Hilary in the primary.

Hey Ivysaur, I just wanna say you seem like a really cool guy, reaching out to us religious people. While I don't agree with gay marriage, I do agree that an open dialogue with each other should be started, if for no other reason than civility and understanding, instead of the hate that each side directs at each other.

I'm going to go out on a limb (wherein most of GAF will likely crucify me) and try and explain my side. When birth control became the norm in the '60s, there seemed to be no downside for religious folk: "Religious people don't have to have premarital sex. It just makes it safer for those who do." Now, I'm not against birth control. I use it myself with my wife. But something happened after it became widespread: waiting till marriage is now shunned. You're seen as a prude, an idiot, etc. if you believe in waiting till marriage. Why did this happen? Normalization. It happened because premarital sex, while it had existed before, became the norm. Therefore, people who believed it was morally wrong became shunned. It's scary for me to admit on a forum that I believe in waiting till marriage, for fear of being banned.

I'm in no way implying that gay marriage would become the norm. No, people's genes won't change just because the law does. But the current status of society is: "You can believe gay sex is immoral, but you have no right to stop someone from doing so." Which I agree with. I have no right to tell you what to do with your life. What people like me fear is that widespread gay marriage would make it wrong to think it's wrong; that we'll be shunned for holding the moral values we currently keep dear, even if we're not imposing it on anyone.

It used to be okay to be a virgin till marriage; now it's humiliating (I was one). It is currently okay to think that (without restricting anyone from doing it) gay sex is immoral, a fundamental belief in Christian chastity, but with the legalization of gay marriage that may not be the case.

The ironic thing is that we're worried about being shunned in the future, whereas you guys are fighting not to be shunned right now. :) So I totally get where you're coming from, and why you're fighting the good fight. If nothing else, maybe my explanation of our fears can help you in your endeavors to spread what you feel is good, and to that I wish you all the best luck.
 

Prax

Member
no. no. no...
Hey, to be fair, I said it SEEMS to sound like that or come off like that.

It's sometimes hard to understand hypocrisy (or rather, understand why people don't see their own hypocrisy as obviously bad), especially when it comes to rights.
I figure people have trouble with abstraction and thinking about the "big picture". This is why leadership (people telling people how to think/come to a conclusion) is so important. Unfortunately much of the leadership for the black community is concentrated in the churches, which are more often against marriage equality.

Of course the ideal would be to teach everyone higher level critical thinking skills so people don't have to rely so heavily on authority to tell them what they should feel, but I don't know how feasible that would be. Seems a lot of people would much rather someone tell them what to think (and of course my assumption is that the conclusion they would reach with these new-gained critical thinking skills is more equality/equity, not less).
 

Sadsic

Member
I used like, because in my experience, religious and political battles came with weapons, bloodshed, political crackdowns, and communities turning against each other along those lines, etc.

this is more of a struggle than a battle, but it's 'like' a battle in lots of ways.



Maryland is divided up in a lot of different ways. Expressly Southern and North Western Maryland still have the Klan. But there are liberal parts of Montgomery and Prince George's county where gay members of the community are accepted. Since Washington DC has a pretty populous gay community, it only makes sense that the DC suburbs would have higher numbers as well. Communities like gay households because they tend to be high earning tax payers and also spend money locally. The only real pushback is from the churches and their effects on politics. So people really need to choose their targets. In my experiences, most people are very ambivalent or even apathetic about gays, they don't care one way or the other. And it's probably best to tip them towards acceptance than to assume from the outside that they're anti-gay because of their vocal church leaders.

The best way to get people out of their bubbles is to invite them to step out. But what I'm seeing is people pressing in from the outside to make those bubbles even tighter.

Well it just seems extremely difficult to get people to do anything they don't want to in this state because of the intense post de-industrialization here. I think the main way to fix the division here would be to remove the intense malaise here / give some sort of unity to the people.

Basically the ending to Watchmen >_>
 
You mean Washington and Iowa. You can thank the worst grassroots organization since the McCain campaign for a loss of marriage equality in California, which is exactly the point. No effort was really made to court people of faith or of color. And there was no understanding about the importance of faith within these communities. It was a huge clusterfuck.

Didn't the appeals court reverse the California ruling that Prop 8 was unconstitutional? Yeah, that decision is being appealed but the Supreme Court might not even pick it up. Technically, it's legal in California again but gay couples aren't allowed to marry quite just yet...according to this article. For the sake of arguing let's call it a push and we're both right.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Hey Ivysaur, I just wanna say you seem like a really cool guy, reaching out to us religious people. While I don't agree with gay marriage, I do agree that an open dialogue with each other should be started, if for no other reason than civility and understanding, instead of the hate that each side directs at each other.

I'm going to go out on a limb (wherein most of GAF will likely crucify me) and try and explain my side. When birth control became the norm in the '60s, there seemed to be no downside for religious folk: "Religious people don't have to have premarital sex. It just makes it safer for those who do." Now, I'm not against birth control. I use it myself with my wife. But something happened after it became widespread: waiting till marriage is now shunned. You're seen as a prude, an idiot, etc. if you believe in waiting till marriage. Why did this happen? Normalization. It happened because premarital sex, while it had existed before, became the norm. Therefore, people who believed it was morally wrong became shunned. It's scary for me to admit on a forum that I believe in waiting till marriage, for fear of being banned.

I'm in no way implying that gay marriage would become the norm. No, people's genes won't change just because the law does. But the current status of society is: "You can believe gay sex is immoral, but you have no right to stop someone from doing so." Which I agree with. I have no right to tell you what to do with your life. What people like me fear is that widespread gay marriage would make it wrong to think it's wrong; that we'll be shunned for holding the moral values we currently keep dear, even if we're not imposing it on anyone.

It used to be okay to be a virgin till marriage; now it's humiliating (I was one). It is currently okay to think that (without restricting anyone from doing it) gay sex is immoral, a fundamental belief in Christian chastity, but with the legalization of gay marriage that may not be the case.

The ironic thing is that we're worried about being shunned in the future, whereas you guys are fighting not to be shunned right now. :) So I totally get where you're coming from, and why you're fighting the good fight. If nothing else, maybe my explanation of our fears can help you in your endeavors to spread what you feel is good, and to that I wish you all the best luck.

Fearing that same-sex marriage might lead to a stigmatization of beliefs or normalization won't have anything to do with gay marriage. Even if a constitutional ban on gay marriage was passed federally tomorrow, it wouldn't matter - people are increasingly for gay marriage because their family members and friends are coming out. There is nothing anyone can do about that - gay people are going to come out more, and in turn, people will be more accepting when they realize how close to home the issue is. That is an inevitability that will happen whether or not gay marriage will become legal. It just is at this point

I grew up very Catholic. There are people who were in my congregation that were increasingly outraged by the Church's stance on birth control and women as priests. They left the church because of this. But others stayed, even though they disagreed with the church on those particular tenets. The same thing will happen with gay marriage in the future. And churches will absolutely have that right to disagree with the law and not perform marriages in their churches. They just might have a lot of parishioners who disagree with them. But that will have less to do with the legalization of marriage equality and more to do with a general acceptance of LGBT.

People of faith often have sincerely held beliefs that are scrutinized on GAF. I think that's generally unfair, especially when those beliefs do not harm anyone. In this particular issue, there's a cross section of religious liberty and civil rights that must be addressed so that both parties can be respected. There are lines that need to be drawn hard in the sand on both sides (Church cannot be expected to perform marriages they do not wish to perform, Gay couples must have the same access to the rights and name of marriage as straight couples). Where there is gray in between those lines, that's where the compromise should be.

Gay marriage can only strengthen families. It allows for one member of the family not to be ostracized, and can have a marriage performed in front of friends and family. It allows for gay couples the strength to raise a family with the legal and social protections that marriage brings. It can only strengthen the unions between them and allow for younger gay people to have a hope of having a family, something they might never thought they could have. It'll also do wonders for children in the system who need loving parents. It also could go a long way towards bringing gay people who feel shunned back to the church communities they grew up in. There are many ways in which church communities and gay communities are focusing on the same issue: a strength of the family through mutual commitment and love.
 

xbhaskarx

Member
This is not a new thing, the increase in African-American voters turning out for Obama were a big part of the reason Proposition 8 passed (with just 52% of the vote) in California:

Many Obama supporters also backed Prop. 8
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/05/MNH413UTUS.DTL

It also trumped racial identification. While Obama publicly backed the "No on Prop. 8" effort, African American voters had no trouble voting overwhelmingly for the man who will be the nation's first black president and then voting 70 percent in favor of Prop. 8, exit polls showed.
 

akira28

Member
Prax:
I don't think you'll see many Baptist/Methodist/Protestant churches pressing the benefits of critical thinking. Those followers might turn those newly opened eyes to the Biblio and start asking uncomfortable questions.

Change the church message and you will change the game as well. Covenant Baptist church accepts gay members, does unity ceremonies, and have been outspoken supporters of gay marriage. Then you have churches with closeted church leaders who speak and campaign publicly against the evils of homosexuality. But ultimately churches are a business who preach, for pay, a mix of what's considered Christian from the Bible, what they want you to believe, and what they think you want to hear. And if they successfully balance those things, they get their tithes and church offerings. They rely on and pander to and control the communities for their own survival. If they could be hit on any one of those lines, if attacking gays in service and sermon were to become unpopular, or if pastors that did that were to become unpopular, or if churches that supported gay rights were to become MORE popular, it would be helpful in winning the battle.
 

Prax

Member
The ironic thing is that we're worried about being shunned in the future, whereas you guys are fighting not to be shunned right now. :) So I totally get where you're coming from, and why you're fighting the good fight. If nothing else, maybe my explanation of our fears can help you in your endeavors to spread what you feel is good, and to that I wish you all the best luck.
I thought this was an interesting perspective.
The only twist seems to be that no one is REALLY barring your right to think the way you think or at (as long as it doesn't hurt others). You are right that intolerance in regards to sexual orientation is increasingly being shunned, and attitudes toward Christian doctrine is not as positive as before (but it's still pretty positive, given how religious America is!).
But barring rights is a whole other level than just being "shunned" for thinking a certain way or living a certain lifestyle. And I know you realize this and see it as unfair.
I am hoping people start understanding that sometimes their fears or insecurities are not as substantial as they feel, and that it shouldn't be used to continue oppressing groups from attaining equality. Just because you share power/raise others doesn't necessarily mean you lose power/become weak.

I think you are good people though. You seem to understand the wider implications and how keeping your moral values to where it counts (yourself) probably works best for everyone.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
This is not a new thing, the increase in African-American voters turning out for Obama were a big part of the reason Proposition 8 passed (with just 52% of the vote) in California:

Many Obama supporters also backed Prop. 8
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/05/MNH413UTUS.DTL

Exit polls were wrong, it was more in the mid-to-high 50s. Still bad, but not nearly as bad as the original polls suggest.

Of course, those exit polls also showed the racist side of the gay community...
 

xbhaskarx

Member
Exit polls were wrong, it was more in the mid-to-high 50s. Still bad, but not nearly as bad as the original polls suggest.

Of course, those exit polls also showed the racist side of the gay community...

Oh I didn't know there were updated numbers, I just remember the original story.

Also what do you mean when you say they showed the racist side of the gay community?
 

jaxword

Member
I'm in no way implying that gay marriage would become the norm. No, people's genes won't change just because the law does. But the current status of society is: "You can believe gay sex is immoral, but you have no right to stop someone from doing so." Which I agree with. I have no right to tell you what to do with your life. What people like me fear is that widespread gay marriage would make it wrong to think it's wrong; that we'll be shunned for holding the moral values we currently keep dear, even if we're not imposing it on anyone.

Why would it matter if you think it's wrong if you're not imposing it on anyone and keeping it to yourself?

You said "I have no right to tell you what do to with your life."

If you actually mean what you say, then you'd have ZERO opinions towards gay marriage being right OR wrong, because what the rest of society does would not impact those values if you're "not imposing it on anyone."

Therefore, by your own argument, you know your opinion on gay marriage should not matter at all to anyone but yourself, and therefore you'd have no objections to it, period.
 
I've read the arguments and claims that religion has played a huge role in these attitudes. I'm still not convinced that is the case.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Oh I didn't know there were updated numbers, I just remember the original story.

Also what do you mean when you say they showed the racist side of the gay community?

As in, gay people started to say some really shitty stuff about black people, even though the vast majority of gay people in California did shit to help the anti-Prop 8 campaign. And did shit to reach out to people of color and of faith. Lot of hypocrisy and elitism. It was, and still is, disgusting.

Anecdote - my roommate, who is the worst person ever (did I mention that already? Gonna say it again), lived in California during the whole Prop 8 debacle. He did nothing to campaign for it. I decide to go on a date with a black guy, who comes over to pick me up. I invite him in and my roommate is a huge asshole to him (not out of character, he's an asshole to all my friends. Did I mention I don't like him?). Regardless, I come back later and he tells me how much he hates black people because of the whole Prop 8 thing.

Same thing happens when I'm watching Community and mention that I think Danny Glover is kind of cute. Big fucking speech about how much he doesn't like black people. And while it's just anecdotal, I've heard shit like this from other people as well.

It's disgusting. There will never be a real social change in the country if only liberal, white females are targeted as potential allies.
 
There's one on this page, what is your response to him?

I think that religion plays a role in homophobic attitudes, but its impact is completely exaggerated. I think that the likelihood of someone being homophobic can loosely be tied to Christianity, but you'll likely hear many blacks condemn homosexuality even if they're not religious.
 
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