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PS3 Firmware 4.10 - WEB BROWSER IMPROVEMENTS JEFF_RIGBY REDEEMED
- Thread starter Carl
- Start date
he means that Sony numbers their updates quite weirdly. The Vita update, for example was numbered at 4.0 even though the last update before it was 3.75.
TheBanditKing
Member
Any other issues with the firmware guys? I seen a couple of people/websites complaining of issues/bugs with 4.10.
May have important, under the hood changes.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Like printer support?
Has to be more substantial than that ! ^_^
All previous printer updates only warranted minor version increment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_system_software
Btw, the 4.10 entry reads:
LiquidSolid
Member
Hmm? Oh, would you look at that. Trophy descriptions are back to normal. I was beginning to wonder if it was done on purpose.
Eh? Really? Since when? Is my memory fooling me?
OgTheClever
Member
This.
OgTheClever
Member
Well maybe I'm mistaken then. I definitely remember seeing the red symbol appear when trying to use the XMB before, so I haven't tried it more recently.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Thanks to this thread I just realized I can use the ps3youtube website to download videos directly off YouTube and onto my PS3 *mind blown*
I remember both scenarios. Perhaps it's like this:
You could:
* Play music. Press PS button. Launch web browser.
At some point in time, you could not:
* While browsing. Press PS button.
Nothing happens. Had to press O to quit.
Now the browser is a full app. So pressing PS button launches in-game XMB as expected.
What I want to know is: in-game browser. e.g., Will PS Home use the new browser or the old one if they embed a HTML page in their home space.
You could:
* Play music. Press PS button. Launch web browser.
At some point in time, you could not:
* While browsing. Press PS button.
Nothing happens. Had to press O to quit.
Now the browser is a full app. So pressing PS button launches in-game XMB as expected.
What I want to know is: in-game browser. e.g., Will PS Home use the new browser or the old one if they embed a HTML page in their home space.
Well then, apparently this also applies for me.
PSN
There is no SEN store. It's the Playstation Store on the Playstation Network where you login with your SEN account.
Consider my mind blown, I really thought everything was going to be called SEN from now on.
Well my wireless stereo headset no longer seems to be working after the update. It cannot connect to the USB dongle.
Kccitystar
Member
When you allow your console to upload trophy achievements to Facebook, I wonder if it still jumbles all of the achievements into one glob of a post, like this:
I wonder if they'll eventually fix up the Facebook API so it formats your achievements properly when you view the posting on your Timeline. Nothing really serious but a little cosmetic tweak since the feature exists
I wonder if they'll eventually fix up the Facebook API so it formats your achievements properly when you view the posting on your Timeline. Nothing really serious but a little cosmetic tweak since the feature exists
phosphor112
Banned
Just an FYI, I love it when you, Jeff and Androsky(sp?) post.
The Lamonster
Member
Well this is awesome. jeff_rigby is the new Hero of Gaf.
chocolateTHUNDER
Neo Member
Yeah, it's a known problem that they're looking into.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Kind of like NBA-GAF, I never see them leave.He was born in that thread, matured to a member status in that thread, and I've yet to see him post outside ps3/console future concept threads.
Having not read the pages between this one and the first page, I'll just mention that I think this firmware just bricked my console. After downloading the update my screen went black, and now the controllers no longer light up. The four lights flash but then go black. The screen remained black. I restarted the system after some time and it's still black. Keeping my finger on the power button to shutdown greets me with the quick three beeps. The only way for me to turn it off is to flip the switch on the back.
First time that any firmware has seemingly bricked a console of mine.
Lovely.
Lion Heart
Banned
I'm loving this new browser, youtube loads instantly.
Using the ps3 tailored version is still trash but I'm gonna give the actual site a try later on.
jeff_rigby
Banned
That's my memory (may be faulty also) One of the first things I checked was XMB while in the browser. Webkit is smaller/uses less memory than the Netfront browser and I would guess based on memory that the XMB did once then didn't support Music playing or XMB video clip/picture previews.
Saw on BY3D that you think Sony might not follow through on using Gnome software on the PS3 like they have with other platforms. You could be correct and I think the issue is security. Sony has a ton of money invested in the PS3 both in the Cell and in Software to use the Cell. It's their cash cow so to speak. I think the current implementation of the Webkit browser is not using OpenGL > cairoGL or glib > gstreamer & GTK toolkit because it's feared webkit can, if using low level accelerated routines, give access to the OS. This is Microsoft's published reason for no WebGL support.
The current implementation of the PS3 browser is not OpenGL accelerated! ; CairoGL is not being used. Cairo-Pixman as in the combined library to support webkit is OpenGL accelerated, Pixman listed by it'self is apparently not accelerated and is using PPU code only (androvsky said "as expected") I didn't expect this so I hope he expands on this; it's not in the webkit disclosure or any on-line posts about webkit I have read.
I kinda think webkit on the PS3 using only one PPU is pretty fast for no OpenGL support. Imagine full GPU acceleration when we get the webkit2 OpenGL version.
Speculation: Netflix could use the IBM provided Openmax IL PPU codecs with Gstreamer GST-Openmax which would not require Gstreamer in the PS3. In this case if Sony PS3 disclosures are accurate, Sony is using the AVM+ Open Source (they can only use it for non-commercial applications) Adobe flash player and Actionscript Virtual Machine to support DASH IPTV player functionality for Home. This would explain Sony not using IPTV for commercial use till either Gstreamer 1.0 is done, PROVED secure and they disclose it or they decide to pay Adobe for the commercial use of AVM+. My early speculation that Shifty objected to about the PS3 3.5 version number being the same as Adobe Flash server 3.5 version number and Sony using this AVM+ open source Adobe player software may have been accurate. That Sony has a DASH player as seen with Home on the PS3 but is not using it for commercial IPTV themselves makes me believe that Gstreamer is the first choice, a choice so critical that they will delay implementing their entire ecosystem and the money to be made from it until Gstreamer is finished and proved secure.
Then again, Sony could do the same with Gstreamer and the Openmax IL PPU support with no security risk. I assume they want WebGL, accelerated codecs and video manipulation with Cairo which is necessary for zooming into video streams (Playmemories Studio). So it's Gstreamer and Cairo SPU-RSX accelerated support or Something they will have to write themselves and constantly upgrade. (can't use AVM+ without disclosing to Adobe or Pay Adobe for it's use).
CairoGL is another matter, the speed increase for Netflix when it started using CairoGL vs CairoFB and the Sony disclosure for Cairo which had almost no Diff file confirm OpenGL like support for Cairo. I guess Sony considered the Netflix app to be secure.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Jeffffffffffffffffffff, well done.
jeff_rigby
Banned
This should not be about me, it's about Sony.....I started looking into what Sony might be doing (long term) because I couldn't understand why they were not providing applications on the PS3. Webkit requires support libraries that can also support applications.
Android is a package of support libraries to support webkit as well as a virtual machine. Google's Android is functionally limited by their library choices and their choices are because they want fully open source BSD like licences not GPL or LGPL (except for webcore).
Gnome Mobile + Mono is a very similar model but with more powerful libraries.
Adobe Air requires webkit support on a platform and adds a Flash video streaming/player with DRM and a custom virtual machine.
All of the above were speculated by me to be in the PS3 or coming to the PS3 at one time or another (except mono). <somewhat embarrassing wild speculation>
All I have done is assume Sony is not stupid and looked for evidence of a long term plan. androvsy has done the same to a lesser extent...patsu also. The difference in my mind is they don't stick their necks out as far and haven't drawn as much flak.
Since March of 2011 after seriously looking into the webkit disclosures prompted by androvsky doing so first, Sony future plans had more support....looking at other Sony platforms support the same plan....Gnome supported GTKwebkit then PS Suite which used a Mono (GNOME) virtual machine which generally uses webkit (used Gecko), Gstreamer and GTK toolkit APIs to support applications.
What should be now under stood by my being provably correct on a few of my speculations is that the PS3 is not an orphan....Sony does have a long range plan and much more is coming for the PS3.
I am getting undeserved praise only because of the harshness of the nay Sayers and my persistence in providing clues to what I thought was happening. Patsu has done the same in the BY3D Console forums but did not stick his neck out with speculation.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Don't need to, the Vita browser is nearly identical in function, same webkit2 core same level of toolkit API integration. Differences that might show up are Geolocation, Augmented Reality through the browser, Script to text and maybe some more later that I can't think of now.
Most of the core Vita applications are also going to show up on the PS3.
How is that a problem?
I think they did it purposely because now you can actually hear yourself
R_thanatos
Member
This might be a stupid question but if it's a matter of libraries, couldn't the PS3 broswer support this as well given the right accesories is available ? i'm thinking about augmented reality ..
Two reasons I didn't expect hardware acceleration: One, as I recall, although sometimes people talk about the high level graphics language on the PS3 as being OpengGL, it's not actually OpenGL (called PSGL, iirc), it's just similar. So if Sony was supporting PSGL directly, it would've shown up in the webkit source (most likely in Cairo). Yes, they could write a library to go between Cairo and PSGL, but that's getting messy and would probably wait until later.
Two, and the main reason, is that the BBC iPlayer app runs pretty slow, without any sort of smooth scrolling.
According to the BBC devs, it's a straightforward HTML5 app that they can reuse on other systems that support HTML5, so it kinda has to run on the webkit browser. Although I'm sure it's a huge improvement over the old one that ran on the Netfront browser, the new app really doesn't feel hardware accelerated at all when compared to the other PS3 apps that definitely are.Which brings us to your earlier question, about whether I think Sony's going to work on drawing speed or streaming HTML5 video support next. And I have no idea. I'd think video support would be a major priority unless Sony wants to push people towards using the apps that don't exist yet. If they want to push people towards apps, then drawing speed would be most important, especially if it would impact the apps.
Do we know Neftlix uses Cairo on the PS3? Iirc, it's Netflix's own webkit port + Qt. Since Qt has a commercial license, it could be drawing directly to PSGL without any sort of disclosure.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Sony in a GDC PDF mentioned in 2008 that they could emulate/provide support for openGL and the PS3 Cairo disclosure DIFF file was extremely small which meant it wasn't modified to use PSGL, the PS3 was supporting what CairoGL required. If they supported Cairo with PSGL they would have to disclose the changes to cairo to use PSGL. It makes sense for Sony to support Cairo with OpenGL as that provides a common interface that also isolates the SPU-RSX custom routines insuring another layer of security. Also with webGL in the future and with the javascript engine in particular, it will/can make calls directly to openGL. This is the security issue brought up by Microsoft and why they say they will not support webGL.
The backend used by Cairo for Netflix in September 2010 must have been CairoFB (cairo-Pixman) and when it reduced in size and had at least a 5X increase in drawing speed was probably CairoGL (cairo-pixman) replacing CairoFB (cairo-pixman). Pixman is MIT license and Cairo is LGPL. It's possible Pixman was being used by Netflix and the speedup was the accelerated Pixman. It is entirely possible for Netflix to have used PSGL but I think Netflix would prefer to use a "Standard" interface like either CairoFB or CairoGL rather than to have to customize a version just for the PS3.
It gets confusing this Cairo-pixman marriage and you have caught me before using Cairo for Playview zooming of pictures which would be the Pixman part of Cairo-Pixman.
It's up to Sony and the BBC jointly if they want to support something other than CairoFB (cairo-pixman) You are noticing a difference in speed between apps on the PS3, this should confirm that some are faster for a reason like OpenGL acceleration.Two, and the main reason, is that the BBC iPlayer app runs pretty slow, without any sort of smooth scrolling.
The point I was trying to make is that the current PS3 browser after 4.10 is I think a patch job and nothing like what I think the final browser will look or work like.
I think webGL is a security nightmare for Sony but they had to provide a browser that works for some coming soon feature of the PSN. So WebGL and HTML5 <video> which are security risks are not supported. I thought you had figured out earlier than I did that security was an issue and the reason for a wait for webkit2 but hadn't mentioned it.
Again this is speculation Following on the thoughts above: " Netflix could use the IBM provided Openmax IL PPU codecs with Gstreamer GST-Openmax which would not require Gstreamer in the PS3. In this case if Sony PS3 disclosures are accurate, Sony is using the AVM+ Open Source (they can only use it for non-commercial applications) Adobe flash player and Actionscript Virtual Machine to support DASH IPTV player functionality for Home. This would explain Sony not using IPTV for commercial use till either Gstreamer 1.0 is done, PROVED secure and they disclose it or they decide to pay Adobe for the commercial use of AVM+. My early speculation that Shifty objected to about the PS3 3.5 version number being the same as Adobe Flash server 3.5 version number and Sony using this AVM+ open source Adobe player software may have been accurate. That Sony has a DASH player as seen with Home on the PS3 but is not using it for commercial IPTV themselves makes me believe that Gstreamer is the first choice, a choice so critical that they will delay implementing their entire ecosystem and the money to be made from it until Gstreamer is finished and proved secure.
Then again, Sony could do the same with Gstreamer and the Openmax IL PPU support with no more security risk (what else, what framework engine is being used that might be an issue). I assume they want WebGL, accelerated codecs and video manipulation with Cairo which is necessary for zooming into video streams (Playmemories Studio). So it's Gstreamer and Cairo SPU-RSX accelerated support or Something they will have to write themselves and constantly upgrade. (can't use AVM+ without disclosing or Pay Adobe for it's use).
AVM+ in Sony disclosures is an Adobe Actionscript Virtual Machine and the + indicates it includes other features like Flash player software.
If the PS3 disclosures are accurate....and I have issues with this, the 2009 PS3 firmware rewrite is using Open Source Adobe Flash, the Charles Ying post would then imply the PS3 is using a Flash player and a Adobe Virtual Machine for the IPTV framework not Gstreamer + mono. Rendering would still be with Cairo (cairo - Pixman)
IF Sony has not paid to use AVM+ or Air they can not use it for commercial applications. In addition they must disclose all changes to non-commercial (like GPL license) code but only for 6 months.
There was one line of code in the Javascript diff file that mentioned Glib would not be loaded for the POSIX port. Gstreamer and GTK both require glib. If Sony edited the GTKwebkit port removing all calls that required glib, they would have a generic javascript engine for IPTV that would be more secure and smaller.
The above makes including lib_GTK, lib_gstreamer and lib_Glib in the PS3 webkit disclosure library a puzzlement.
My best guess is that in 2009, AVM+ is a proven secure platform that is an industry standard. Mono + Gstreamer + Webkit is trying to emulate AVM+ and now Air 3 functionality but have not proven themselves secure and do not have a pool of programmers with experience. It made sense to support Free (non-commercial) IPTV at that time (2009) with Adobe Flash open source AVM+.
Geoff Levand's email stating that he didn't know what Air for embedded was when the PS3 was, if the above is accurate, using AVM+ FLASH and plans called for using a webkit javascript engine which would be needed with Air for embedded is troubling.
My best guess based on a number of facts is that future plans call for using Gstreamer and Mono in the PS3 for IPTV provided it is proven secure. As I said previously, Gstreamer + Mono + Webkit is trying to support the same feature set that Adobe does with Flash and Air and this to support W3C in it's effort to have a completely open source webkit that does not need plugins.
Sony can use Adobe software to support video editing or they can use Gstreamer's GST library. This explains the on and off statements by Sony of support for PS Suite in the PS3. Is Adobe more secure and faster or will Gstreamer which is open source and FREE work for Sony. We already know that it's Sony's first choice for every other networked platform and they have already decided to support PS Suite (gstreamer & Mono & webkit) on the Vita . My best guess is that Sony could go either way on the PS3; PS Suite (Gstreamer & Mono & webkit) or Adobe Air (Flash player & Virtual machine & webkit). There are obvious advantages in going with Open Source and having all IP built with the same libraries both now and in the future. All Sony platforms except the PS3 with the same Gstreamer - Mono libraries would again make the PS3 a second class member of the Sony family.
It's interesting that Sony's Android tablets come with PS suite and Adobe Air.
The 2009 Sony patent for supporting games via the web had Flash games as examples but the Snap program first seen on the web in early 2010 was using Gstreamer and Cairo for applications and mentioned porting Software from GNU Linux to Sony platforms. SNAP was put on hold several months after hitting the web and in Jan 2011 PS Suite (Mono-Cairo-Gstreamer-webkit) was announced and the SNAP site removed. This might echo internal Sony decisions along the timeline from 2009 - 2011.
Editing video ability, Playmemories Studio and Playview as in Flash Deep Zooming are key here. Both can be supported by either Air+webkit+cairo or Gstreamer+webkit+cairo with native "C" or with Mono totally like Air using a Virtual machine and even video editing using just webkit using javascript if properly supported with Gstreamer as Collabora is doing to comply with W3C recommendations and Emerson Labs for W3C RTC. (RTC for GTKwebkit is being supported by Gstreamer/D-buss/telepathy/ICE but Google Chrome is supplying other open source libraries to support RTC on Chrome.)
soundahfekz
Member
awwww shit
jeff_rigby
Banned
I guess so, I mentioned that a new Sony camera with LIVE wireless video could be used as a remote skype camera and as a augmented reality camera for the PS3. I was jumped on.
Oh no! The new browser has "nuked" the two Flash games I modified to get them working with the PS3 controller - N and The Pharaoh's Tomb...
With the PS3 being an advanced games console, this is hardly a great loss, but the fact that Flash objects no longer receive the D-Pad key notifications (cursor left, right etc), might pose some other issues, e.g. you can no longer use the PS3's remote to switch to full screen with YouTube XL.
YouTube XL has always been way too basic for my tastes (up until the new browser, I have of course been using the bookmarklet and PS3YouTube), but XL's Flash video player did hold the distinction of being one of the few player's that actually allowed you to use the cursor keys (on the remote or controller) to navigate the player's controls (rewind, pause, etc).
Even if Sony do not address this issue, hopefully they will significantly improve the browser performance as whilst the rendering of the standard YouTube site is now spot on (excellent), the browser takes so long to render rollover styles (YouTube highlights thumbnail cells in white), using the remote (cursor keys) is almost unusable on some pages, e.g. try holding cursor down key on Videos (Browse) page...
Hopefully Sony will also implement a browser "tooltip" feature for where a text video title is abbreviated by the browser (now supported) or on the server and show the full title in a small popup below the cursor (as I did with the bookmarklet).
Now that the standard YouTube site is rendered perfectly, if you just can't stomach 240p, what you can do is open the standard site in one window and have PS3YouTube.com in a second window and then when you want to watch a video, use the "Copy address of this link" feature to copy the video's address and use this for the PS3YouTube window (paste address and insert ps3 in front of youtube in the address).
With the PS3 being an advanced games console, this is hardly a great loss, but the fact that Flash objects no longer receive the D-Pad key notifications (cursor left, right etc), might pose some other issues, e.g. you can no longer use the PS3's remote to switch to full screen with YouTube XL.
YouTube XL has always been way too basic for my tastes (up until the new browser, I have of course been using the bookmarklet and PS3YouTube), but XL's Flash video player did hold the distinction of being one of the few player's that actually allowed you to use the cursor keys (on the remote or controller) to navigate the player's controls (rewind, pause, etc).
Even if Sony do not address this issue, hopefully they will significantly improve the browser performance as whilst the rendering of the standard YouTube site is now spot on (excellent), the browser takes so long to render rollover styles (YouTube highlights thumbnail cells in white), using the remote (cursor keys) is almost unusable on some pages, e.g. try holding cursor down key on Videos (Browse) page...
Hopefully Sony will also implement a browser "tooltip" feature for where a text video title is abbreviated by the browser (now supported) or on the server and show the full title in a small popup below the cursor (as I did with the bookmarklet).
Now that the standard YouTube site is rendered perfectly, if you just can't stomach 240p, what you can do is open the standard site in one window and have PS3YouTube.com in a second window and then when you want to watch a video, use the "Copy address of this link" feature to copy the video's address and use this for the PS3YouTube window (paste address and insert ps3 in front of youtube in the address).
jeff_rigby
Banned
KVN, Kung Fu Grip; Sony Major version numbers track some internal roadmap of features. The 4.0 version number may have reflected an aversion in Japan to use the 4.0 (sounds like death in Japanese); This may have impacted 4.10 in that it may actually be part of what was planned for 4.0. In any case, Gstreamer and webkit2 are behind schedule so we might have several .1 updates as I believe 4.5 then 5.0 have already been reserved for significant future features.
4.something this spring with more HTML5 features and <video> tag along with RIA from the XMB.
5.0 is probably streaming (Video) Augmented reality this September (from Khronos), we have already seen AR still picture over camera video overlays with Android and a couple of games for the PS3.
3.0 - 3.5 - 4.0 did have in hind sight major features that were released:
3.0 support for the IPTV framework
3.5 webkit Javascript engine and support for Flash server 3.5 streams for IPTV (could be supported on the IPTV player side by DASH AVM+ (Flash) or DASH Gstreamer (2009 Marlin PDF)) & Openmax IL
4.0 full support for webkit in the PS3 with a new Webkit browser. (released as 4.1 and I think still behind in the features planned for 4.0)
Kung Fu Grip
Banned
Sorry for the bump, but is anyone having problems since this upgrade?
Sites that worked fine before don't work as well. And now when i try to type something in, the keyboard locks up and i have to reset the console.
And just now i lost all my bookmarks. I had over 100!!!
Sites that worked fine before don't work as well. And now when i try to type something in, the keyboard locks up and i have to reset the console.
And just now i lost all my bookmarks. I had over 100!!!