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Syrian army retakes Homs; terrorists flee

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D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
Solid warrior said:
If you terrorize people and use violence for political purposes, then, You ARE a terrorist.

So, Please, bomb the nearby government offices in your area, if you feel oppressed, k? You won't be a terrorist anyway.
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You're... not helping your case here. If you are trying to help people see your side of this story, you could probably help yourself out by not coming off so overly defensive.

A group that is not truly organized that makes an attack on a government building is not immediately a terrorist group. Had they bombed a marketplace, church, hospital... something like that, you'd be on to something. But that is not what you showed me. Had they used inhumane weapons, suicide bombing tactics, torture on civilians or non-combatants then you'd be on to something too.

So far, you've shown that there is a civil war going on. No war is going to be blood free. People who are not involved will die. No matter which side is doing it, its going to happen. And on top of that, you can't even deny that the government is responsible for a solid number of deaths as well. So why bother making the comment of "I'll never support a tyrant BUT" if you immediately follow with "the opposing force here must be terrorists - how dare they not follow democracy"? You're making it really, really hard to see your side here. If you're not a troll.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
Our relationship with Saudi Arabia is definitely fucked but in the context of this thread it's ultimately just a straw man defense.
 
D

DarkKyo

Member
Azih said:
Let's not invoke Godwin here.

The fact is that a lot of Syrians support the Bashar Al-Asad. You can't ignore that fact as it is something that complicates the matter terribly. As Solid Warrior demonstrates.
Click to expand...

Germans by and large supported Hitler as well.
 
D

Dinosaur Tamer

Member
Sealda said:
OP how dare you have another opinion than others!!!!!!


Im disgusted by this, surely, you do not fit in a democratic society!
Click to expand...

Already making friends, aren't we?

Your hyperbole is missing the point. This is a matter of semantics rather than opinion. An armed rebellion and/or a faction in a civil war simply does not fit the description of terrorist(s).

Solid warrior said:
Terrorists taking a population hostage?
Click to expand...

I was about to ask you where you are from, but at this point I am convinced you are just trolling.
 
Dude Abides

Dude Abides

Banned
Dinosaur Tamer said:
Your hyperbole is missing the point. This is a matter of semantics rather than opinion. An armed rebellion and/or a faction in a civil war simply does not fit the description of terrorist(s).
Click to expand...

They do if they deliberately target noncombatants. Whether something is terrorism is a question of means, not ends or political alignment.

I don't really know who the rebels are in Homs but it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that some portion of them are terrorists.
 
S

Something Wicked

Member
Solid warrior said:
there are 'claims' of 8,000 deaths. the UN still can't verify them and they've recently said "It's impossible" to verify them. The Syrian government claims more than 1500 security personnel deaths and asks, who killed them?

To my understanding, Saudi and GCC forces has entered Bahrain to end Bahrainis "peaceful" uprising. At the same time, Saudi and the rest of GCC supported "freedom" and "democracy" of Syrian People.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/29/w...ose-in-on-syrian-rebels-after-referendum.html
Click to expand...

Guess what? Saudi tanks weren't shelling Bahraini Shia. There weren't Saudi snipers shooting women and children in the middle of the streets.

It's a false equivalency.
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
haha wow @ the framing. Yeah, some terrorists are part of the resistance. That's inevitable in a breakdown like this. No, they're not a majority of terrorists. Assad is a mass murdering tyrant devoid of human value and when you live under the boot of someone like that, someone who terrorizes you all day long, it becomes different than terrorism when you decide to fight back as a citizen.

Maybe if Assad wasn't a murderous tyrant douchebag you wouldn't have people, however disorganized and intermingled with actual terrorists they may be, blowing up government buildings. Hm?
 
D

DarkKyo

Member
phosphor112 said:
You're comparing Nazism to a minority group in a country that want to protect their self interests. Syria isn't attempting to take over the world through ethnic cleansing. That's a terrible comparison.
Click to expand...

All I was saying was that it means nothing that a large amount of people support an evil leader. It doesn't make the leader half-right or something.
 
J

Jackpot

Banned
Solid warrior said:
Also, the AL monitoring mission 'CONFIRMED' the syrian government claims of terrorists groups in Homs and other places as well. That's why it has been discontinued.
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Busted

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16778505

"Syria condemns Arab League move to suspend monitoring"

Why did Syria's own government condemn the pull-out if their mission was complete and their conclusions matched the Syrian gov's? Why did the Arab League then refer it up to the UN for sanctions against Syria?

Also people should remember that the government slaughtered unarmed protesters months before the "Free Syrian Army" took up arms.
 
P

panda21

Member
the OP previously claimed that there was no proof the Syrian army killed the journalists in Homs, but that it was the 'terrorists'.

so yeah.
 
M

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
Azih said:
Let's not invoke Godwin here.

The fact is that a lot of Syrians support the Bashar Al-Asad. You can't ignore that fact as it is something that complicates the matter terribly. As Solid Warrior demonstrates.

Edit: Now I'm assuming that SW here is a Syrian that supports Al-Asad. He may not be. But you can bet that there are a ton of Syrians who DO and have similar reasoning. It's better to understand the reasoning than just knee jerk attacking it.

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
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That is inevitable during any uprising. It is easy to forget now that a significant Torry population once backed the British during the American Revolution (who, if I remember correctly, used very similar language to smear the American rebels). The question is one of justification and complicity. Do the rebels have a moral justification to rise up against the government, and is there enough will among the people to defy it? The nature of this thread does not seem to be designed to debate either issue.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
http://www.npr.org/2012/03/01/147683908/officials-look-for-signs-of-al-qaida-surge-in-syria

The situation is so murky because during the Iraq War, al-Qaida used a network of Syrian tribesmen and smugglers to get suicide bombers into Iraq to attack U.S. forces. Now that so-called "rat line" has been reversed; al-Qaida is starting to send operatives the other way — back to Syria.
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In recent years, al-Qaida has chosen to play a behind-the-scenes role in regional conflicts instead of lending local groups the al-Qaida brand. It has been training fighters for al-Shabab in Somalia. There are indications it is schooling bomb-makers in Nigeria. But in both cases, al-Qaida has shied away from taking credit for doing so. That has forced U.S. intelligence analysts to troll for more subtle cues. In addition to tracking the foreign fighters heading into Syria, for example, they are watching for an uptick in suicide attacks — particularly car bombs, which are al-Qaida's specialty.

Another indicator: jihadi propaganda and in particular al-Qaida messages that focus on Syria. In a small way, that has already happened. Osama bin Laden's successor, al-Qaida leader Ayman al-Zawahiri, released a short video message a couple of weeks ago throwing al-Qaida's weight behind the uprising in Syria. He talked directly to the Syrian fighters and said, "You face their tanks with your bare chests." Then he called on Muslims throughout the Levant region to travel to Syria and help topple the government there. It is too early to tell whether that call has been answered.
Click to expand...
 
S

Solid warrior

Banned
Jackpot said:
Busted

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16778505

"Syria condemns Arab League move to suspend monitoring"

Why did Syria's own government condemn the pull-out if their mission was complete and their conclusions matched the Syrian gov's? Why did the Arab League then refer it up to the UN for sanctions against Syria?

Also people should remember that the government slaughtered unarmed protesters months before the "Free Syrian Army" took up arms.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about?

the Syrian government condemned the Arab League decision. AL took that decision after AL monitors confirmed the Syrian Gov claims of terrorists groups. Saudi/Qatar didn't like the fact they've been exposed, so they pushed for discontinuing the mission as it is.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
Solid warrior said:
But they invaded Bahrain to aid the government crackdown on "freedom/democracy seeking" protestors.
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Yep.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...turmoil-to-epicentre-of-world-oil-supply.html
At least four protesters were killed in a bloody crack-down in Bahrain after tanks entered the capital and security forces smashed a tent city in the main square, opening fire with grapeshot. The situation is fraught with risk since a Sunni monarchy rules a Shia majority with mixed Iranian ancestry and sympathetic ties to Tehran.

"Bahrain is the main danger, not because it is intrinsically important, but because it could trigger intervention by Saudi Arabia," said Faysal Itani, a Mid-East expert at consultants Exclusive Analysis. "We have heard reports that the Saudis have already dispatched troops and equipment to put down the uprising".
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Who would have thought!?

SouthernDragon said:
As previously stated, no one is claiming the rebel resistance is all puppies and kittens.

However, the current dictatorship is far worse.
Click to expand...

The implications of the rebels winning is far worse than if Assad wins. Assad CAN NOT kill all the rebels, the rebels (and outside help) can easily destroy them though. This includes all non-Muslim communities as well.
 
N

noah111

Still Alive
J

joseph1594

Member
The UN can't verify the numbers? You are seriously a fucking fool is blatantly ignoring the media. If you actually read you would know that the UN raised the death toll in Syria to 7,500, not terribly far from 8,000. You should seriously research your shit before you make a remark, only for your own "evidence" to actually be against your assertions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17194593
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/28/syria-idUSL5E8DS86T20120228
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-02-28/...ommittees-syrian-observatory?_s=PM:MIDDLEEAST

You keep on mentioning the bombings in Damascus and Aleppo, are you trying to say two wrongs make a right? When Hama was controlled by Islamists during the early 1980s, did you think it was all right from the Syrian government under Hafez to murder thousands of residents of Hama as collective punishment?

I don't deny that the opposition is guilty of contributing to sectarian violence, bombings, etc, but you do realize a lot of Syrians just become radicalized massively by the bloody crackdown, right? Terrorists don't just spring up because they want to terrorize people, not to say that justifies their actions. I don't believe the whole bombing ordeals was a terribly big problem at the beginning of the uprising when it was dominated by protests instead of insurgency. Anyways, it is extremely foolish logic to say "well, since Hamas and Al-Qaeda back regime change in Syria, that must mean going against the Syrian government makes you a supporter of terrorism!" Hey, did you know Al-Qaeda opposes the American government's foreign policy? Since I am opposed with the way that my country conducts foreign policy, I must be a member of Al-Qaeda!
 
J

Jackpot

Banned
Solid warrior said:
What are you talking about?
Click to expand...

What are you, dense? Don't dodge the question. Quote from you right there saying the Arab League discontinued their monitoring after confirming the Syrian gov's conclusions in response to my post saying even the lax Arab League found enough evidence to condemn Assad. I then post an official statement from the Syrian gov confirming the exact opposite of what you said the Arab League monitoring did.
 
M

Mahonay

Banned
Good thing they're indiscriminately shelling and shooting rockets at these families of dirty terrorists. Those women and children are important government targets.

Fuck everything about this thread.
 
D

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
I honestly wanted a better understanding of this situation because, hell, MAYBE there was a new side to this. Instead, I see people proving each of his points wrong with legit sources a counter-argument to boot.

Thanks.
 
S

Solid warrior

Banned
RustyNails said:
1. UN estimates 5,300 deaths few months ago
2. Assad kicks out UN's sources. Death toll rises to 8,000.
3. 8,000 number is bogus because UN can't verify them

Is that your argument?
Click to expand...
the recently added numbers can't be verified by the UN.

but, I previously said that even the 5300 death claims long time ago can't be verified, either.

because, they're simply baseless. Go find the UN report in PDF form, you'll find out that it's based on "witnesses" claims.
 
G

Guardian Bob

Member
OP, the new "constitution" is a joke:

- The president appoints the prime minister and cabinet members
- The president can enact legislation when parliament is not in session and has veto power.
- It bans parties based on religion or ethnicity, but the president must be Muslim.

Freedom! And there is no stopping things to go back to the way things were. The governments' actions have left them with very few friends, no longer a member of the Arab League, and got some big EU and UN sanctions. All because of the governments actions, not "terrorists".
 
C

ClovingWestbrook

Banned
Solid warrior said:
the recently added numbers can't be verified by the UN.

but, I previously said that even the 5300 death claims long time ago can't be verified, either.

because, they're simply baseless. Go find the UN report in PDF form, you'll find out that it's based on "witnesses" claims.
Click to expand...

Do you accept that the regime has killed innocent Syrians? Do you accept that they are trying to shut up international journalists? Do you accept that due to the Syrian regime innocent journalists have been killed? Do you accept that Assad is a tyranical dictator like Qaddafi, Mubarak, and others?
 
A

Azih

Member
Guess what? Saudi tanks weren't shelling Bahraini Shia. There weren't Saudi snipers shooting women and children in the middle of the streets.
Click to expand...
Bahrani rebels were crushed by tanks AND they were sniped in the streets. Regionally speaking the difference is that Bahrain is pro Saudi while Syria is not, Internationally speaking the equivalent difference is that Bahrain is pro-West while Syria is not.

My opinion is that both the Bahraini and Syrian regimes should be dragged out into the streets and shot but that's neither here nor there. It's imperative to understand that all these states have local support.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
ClovingSteam said:
Do you accept that the regime has killed innocent Syrians? Do you accept that they are trying to shut up international journalists? Do you accept that due to the Syrian regime innocent journalists have been killed? Do you accept that Assad is a tyranical dictator like Qaddafi, Mubarak, and others?
Click to expand...

I don't think he does and it doesn't look like there's anything anyone can say or link to change that.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
Azih said:
Bahrani rebels were crushed by tanks AND they were sniped in the streets. Regionally speaking the difference is that Bahrain is pro Saudi while Syria is not, Internationally speaking the equivalent difference is that Bahrain is pro-West while Syria is not.

My opinion is that both the Bahraini and Syrian regimes should be dragged out into the streets and shot but that's neither here nor there.
Click to expand...

Bahrain is majority Shia population. Gov supports Saudi Arabia.
Syria is majority Sunni population. Gov doesn't support Saudi Arabia.
Just to make things clearer for people.
 
S

SquiddyCracker

Banned
I have Syrian roots and what I hear from my relatives is that it's almost a matter of choosing the lesser of evils.
They all hate the current regime and would want nothing more for it to fail, but they are also causal-muslims/atheists and fear that a change of the regime will just result in hardcore religious groups coming into power.
 
A

Azih

Member
phosphor112 said:
Bahrain is majority Shia population. Gov supports Saudi Arabia.
Syria is majority Sunni population. Gov doesn't support Saudi Arabia.
Just to make things clearer for people.
Click to expand...

I'd like to get away from the whole Shia/Sunni thing because every Arab uprising has started with ordinary regular civilians making appeals for unity across every sectarian/religious divide. Existing power blocks who have gained and maintained their power by exploiting those divides don't like that of course.
 
J

JJD

Member
Solid warrior said:
there are 'claims' of 8,000 deaths. the UN still can't verify them and they've recently said "It's impossible" to verify them. The Syrian government claims more than 1500 security personnel deaths and asks, who killed them?

To my understanding, Saudi and GCC forces has entered Bahrain to end Bahrainis "peaceful" uprising. At the same time, Saudi and the rest of GCC supported "freedom" and "democracy" of Syrian People.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/29/w...ose-in-on-syrian-rebels-after-referendum.html
Click to expand...

And why the hell do you suppose it's impossible to verify the amount of deaths? Because the Assad dictartoship won't allow it.

And it's funny how you quickly disregard the reports of civilian deaths but will take the government claim of 1500 security personal deaths at face value.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
Solid warrior said:
the recently added numbers can't be verified by the UN.

but, I previously said that even the 5300 death claims long time ago can't be verified, either.

because, they're simply baseless. Go find the UN report in PDF form, you'll find out that it's based on "witnesses" claims.
Click to expand...

Think about what you're saying for a moment. Stop and think.

Your government outlawed foreign press from it's country because they were reporting of atrocities being carried out by it.

In the absence of free press, the only way to know what's going on inside your country is to hear it from civilians, i.e, eye witnesses. We make an estimate based on eyewitness accounts. For example, 100 people say 6,000 people died. 100 other people say 8,000 people died. Based on that, the death toll is somewhere between 6,000 and 8,000 according to eye-witness reports. In that way, we covered the statistical bias with a big ass margin of error. Of course those accounts cannot be independently verified by the UN because your country banned free press.

Just shrugging off 8,000 civilian casualties give or take just because UN cannot verify it is a shameful way of copping out. Have some decency.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
Azih said:
I'd like to get away from the whole Shia/Sunni thing because every Arab uprising has started with ordinary regular civilians making appeals for unity across every sectarian/religious divide. Existing power blocks who have gained and maintained their power by exploiting those divides don't like that of course.
Click to expand...

When has it NOT turned into a secular thing though? It never has.
 
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