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DD Fraud: Sony is Embezzling 2 Games from Me (Everybody's Tennis/Motorstor:AE)

bangai-o

Banned
It's not that Valve can do no wrong. Others can testify that I rail on Valve's poor customer service constantly but you didn't even try. You gave up. Again, Valve can't fix a problem that they don't know exists. It's akin to going into a store, buying something, leaving, putting the product down on the ground in front of the business, and never coming back to pick it up AND THEN railing against the owner for not contacting you.

Come on.

im not railing on them. I dont even care anymore. All i said was Steam can be lumped into the same mold as Sony concerning this issue. You asked me to describe it, and so i did. Subsequently someone else sais Im lying, and then you made a bad analogy.

If Im not allowed to talk bad about Steam, how about this? I purchased UMK3 on xbla. I heard that game got pulled, so I may not be able to download it again. Happy now pc gamers? I said something bad about xbox.
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
Don't know if others brought it up, but the most annoying thing Sony's done regarding digital distribution is change how PSP games transfer from the PS3 through a firmware update. It meant that even if you backed up all your PSP games on your PS3's hard drive, like I did, they all became useless after updating the firmware.

THIS.

They've got this all so so wrong. :/
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
im not railing on them. I dont even care anymore. All i said was Steam can be lumped into the same mold as Sony concerning this issue. You asked me to describe it, and so i did. Subsequently someone else sais Im lying, and then you made a bad analogy.

You're the one making the bad analogy.

Sony pulled a game and disabled people redownloaded it.
Your Steam account (may have) had an error that you could almost certainly resolve just by contacting them.

These are not the same thing.

If Im not allowed to talk bad about Steam, how about this? I purchased UMK3 on xbla. I heard that game got pulled, so I may not be able to download it again. Happy now pc gamers? I said something bad about xbox.

This is ALSO not the same thing because the game is in your download history so you can redownload it.
 
karairindool9.gif



Blue Submarine (i believe it was him) is in same boat as you and emailed them and received a pretty useless email back.....dunno what the outcome was/will be but im kinda interested in how this pans out.
As of right now my request for a refund has been submitted to the Playstation Network team. From their last email:
Our PlayStation® Network team will reply to your Sign in ID (email address) with their decision regarding your request for the following item:

• MotorStorm® Arctic Edge

Please keep in mind that as per our user agreement we don't generally offer refunds. However, our network team will review your situation and make a decision accordingly. If they do offer a refund, it will be offered as a onetime courtesy. We will not be able to offer any additional refunds in the future.
So, I wait...
lol

Welcome to Sony's digital future!

Stating facts != agreeing that they're right or wrong.

I love how people jump on an opinion no one expressed because they posted the facts of software licensing. You don't have to like it, and I'm certain most people don't, but that doesn't change the fact that software is licensed to people for use and this includes games and physically distributed software. It is simply harder to disable access to physically distributed software.
They can have my UMDs when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers!!
 

Mandoric

Banned
This is ALSO not the same thing because the game is in your download history so you can redownload it.

Not all pulled content for (360-era, not talking things like Halo 2 maps) XBL stays in the download history, though I don't know if any actual games have gotten the total yank treatment.
 

XOMTOR

Member
Frankly I'm amazed with Sony's efficiency. They must read Wololo's blog religiously. Sadly, they'll react to this with lightning reflexes but everything else they do takes place on an evolutionary time scale. Sony, you really need to start paying more attention to your customers and less time/energy chasing after so-called hackers.
 

Sera O

Banned
Wow. That's unbelievably infuriating.

In the past I've preferred physical copies even when they've been more expensive and less convenient, but recently in the interests of cutting clutter I have been buying more off of PSN.

This kind of crap really worries me - especially as Sony's memory card formats are always proprietary and overpriced, pretty much necessitating moving games on and off if I don't want to spend a hundred bucks on a card (Vita I'm looking at you). If you are not careful about keeping a backup you will end up having to redownload, and surprise, it's gone.

I think they need to manage expectations better. If they can't ensure you will have access to what you bought for the lifetime of the system, they should move to a pay once, download once model and cut the prices to be somewhere between a rental and a full physical retail package.
 
Not all pulled content for (360-era, not talking things like Halo 2 maps) XBL stays in the download history, though I don't know if any actual games have gotten the total yank treatment.

So it doesn't all stay in the download history but you don't know if anything has actually been pulled from the download history?

Huh?
 

Mandoric

Banned
So it doesn't all stay in the download history but you don't know if anything has actually been pulled from the download history?

Huh?

Actually just went and double-checked, it's been a while. I have nongame content that does appear in the history, but is not redownloadable. Long-term issue, occurs across multiple consoles, not a thing where they fixed GeoIP because it's US-region content and I'm accessing from the US.

This is pretty offtopic, though. Curious to see how the refund request goes, hopefully he'll either get it or details on when the game will be back.
 

Eusis

Member
I think they need to manage expectations better. If they can't ensure you will have access to what you bought for the lifetime of the system, they should move to a pay once, download once model and cut the prices to be somewhere between a rental and a full physical retail package.
That'd probably also kill this because, well, why bother when I can get a physical copy that WON'T vanish on me? Especially for more niche games, I'd rather just own the damn thing and not have them use it as a fallback because retail sucks.
 

MoxManiac

Member
what property? what precisely did you own? the game's source code? you owned a license to play the game at sony's discretion. sony's discretion is such that nobody should be playing those games because of exploits.

the title of this thread is absolutely laughable.

..and this is exactly why i will not support a DD future.

(ironically my entire PSP library is digital, only because i think UMD is the worst format ever)
 

jsnepo

Member
I can't believe some people are defending Sony about this. This is anti consumer obviously. If you pay for something, you have to get it unless you broke something. If they don't want you to have it then at least a refund should be given.

Same thing happened with Burnout Paradise Party Pack. It wasn't available in the store nor the download list. It only came back this month I think.

Fuck the digital only future. I need my discs and carts.
 

Sera O

Banned
That'd probably also kill this because, well, why bother when I can get a physical copy that WON'T vanish on me? Especially for more niche games, I'd rather just own the damn thing and not have them use it as a fallback because retail sucks.

I agree with wanting physical copies of "keeper" games.

DD has its place in my life, mostly for games I don't think I'll want to find shelf space for, or ones I don't have a burning interest in. The problem is we're expected to pay full retail and still have to take too much on faith (Sony: "YOINK! Oh you were using that? lol sorry but we're the royal navy and there are pirates out there - ready the cannons").

I don't rent or buy games used. If DD versions were significantly cheaper - not just 5 bucks - with the caveat that 'once you transfer the game, you're on your own,' I think it would be a fair tradeoff and my backlog would probably grow. Physical for games I care about, DD for other games. I could live with it.

'Course that would really piss off retailers and probably start a shitstorm, so I'm living in a dream world. Charging less? Yeah that'll happen. . .
 

Yagharek

Member
As of right now my request for a refund has been submitted to the Playstation Network team. From their last email:

So, I wait...
lol

Welcome to Sony's digital future!

They can have my UMDs when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers!!

Our PlayStation® Network team will reply to your Sign in ID (email address) with their decision regarding your request for the following item:

• MotorStorm® Arctic Edge

Please keep in mind that as per our user agreement we don't generally offer refunds. However, our network team will review your situation and make a decision accordingly. If they do offer a refund, it will be offered as a onetime courtesy. We will not be able to offer any additional refunds in the future.

So basically Sony here are saying that when they screw you around in future they wont make up for it even if they do so this time?

Bunch of weasels.
 

FStop7

Banned
ITT:

People who hate dirty fucking pirates for stealing games from corporations but are fine with justified business interests removing games from paying consumers

Can someone explain to my why whenever there is a thread like this there are certain people who are practically tripping over themselves in their hurry to defend corporate bullshit? What drives a person to do that?
 

mujun

Member
I can't believe some people are defending Sony about this. This is anti consumer obviously. If you pay for something, you have to get it unless you broke something. If they don't want you to have it then at least a refund should be given.

Same thing happened with Burnout Paradise Party Pack. It wasn't available in the store nor the download list. It only came back this month I think.

Fuck the digital only future. I need my discs and carts.

Some people will defend anything, no matter how blatant.
 
The corporate felching needs to stop. Sure, the EULA might say that Sony can do this, but no logical judge or jury would uphold that.
 

MrPliskin

Banned
You're the one making the bad analogy.

Sony pulled a game and disabled people redownloaded it.
Your Steam account (may have) had an error that you could almost certainly resolve just by contacting them.

These are not the same thing.

To be fair, the OP could just as easily call Sony (with a little effort) and get a full refund for said title.


corporate felching

WAT.

Goodness, the hyperbole get's more and more disgusting as days go by. I shudder to think what logical people will be called in the next few months / years...
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Can someone explain to my why whenever there is a thread like this there are certain people who are practically tripping over themselves in their hurry to defend corporate bullshit? What drives a person to do that?

In threads like these, reading comprehension seems to take back seat to unbridled rage. Plenty of people in "these threads" tend to take a dispassionate look and explain how this stuff works. Then they get accused of being "corporate apologists" or what have you. Some even say "and btw, my opinion is I don't like it" - and STILL get called corporate apologists.

In this particular case, it's quite true that software is licensed, whether physical or digital. The emotional connection people have to the idea of ownership notwithstanding and the rationalizations that connection inspires them to make.

Having said that, what Sony MAY be embarking on here (if they do not take further steps to address this issue) is bad news, for their reputation especially.

In the interests of not being categorized as an "apologist", I shall now say a corporation does bad things. *clears throat*

Sony really gives the aura that end user and customer concerns are essentially at the absolute bottom of their priority list. Worse than most, even worse than Microsoft in a lot of ways. In this case, what appears to have happened is that it isn't that Sony's DD system broke; they do have basic provisions for preserving the customer's right to a purchased PSN title in perpetuity. But when extraordinary circumstances hit Sony, they freak out and make rash, shoot-from-the-hip responses.

In this case, their response to the mere possibility of a full Vita hack was to not just bar future sales of the affected PSP games, but effectively destroy those games, wiping them from existence. With apparently no plan on what to do next to resolve the situation. (Until we hear otherwise.)

... and that does set a bad and scary precedent. It means that at the slightest hint of inconvenience for Sony, they will rip anything off PSN with very likely no provisions, forethought, or after-the-fact plan for fixing it. This is sobering and may be one of the first real significant fuckups that the major platform holders have made with DD. The fact that it involves a pair of "mere" PSP games is just the canary in the mineshaft.

For example, Zipper is apparently going out of business. Unit 13, the recently released title for Vita, is buggy and desperately needs support. What if a Vita exploit is discovered tomorrow due to how buggy the game is, and with no staff left to do real work on it, Sony just cancels the game's existence and rips it down?

What if a year from now some other significant game has a bug or issue uncovered that sets off Sony's berserker response to Playstation firmware hacks? If this new behavior is a sign of things to come, their response would be to crush the threat as clumsily as possible with no thought to the situation of their paying customers.
 
It actually does.

As far as I'm aware embezzlement entails the illegal appropriation of someone else's property which was under their possession. I guess the crux of whether the game/data in question, stored on Sony's servers is actually the TC's property. I imagine it wouldn't be considered as such in the legal system.

Not sure if there are lawyers on gaf who can clarify (not that it really matters anyway, was just an observation).
 
So do we know if the Wololo story was actually true? Maybe he was just trolling Sony.

Anyway, good job on the issue and its communication there. Luckily I only have the free stuff they gave away for the PSN screw-job. And Flower but they can take that away if they want.
 

Eusis

Member
So do we know if the Wololo story was actually true? Maybe he was just trolling Sony.
In a way that's even worse. It means, say, someone could make a false claim that there's an exploit in ANY game and get it ripped down, despite the fact there is in fact no exploit to be made. Thus someone who wants to just troll or actively remove a game they don't like gets disproportionate power.

I actually considered listing examples, but the last thing I want to do is give anyone ideas.
 

ReaperXL7

Member
In threads like these, reading comprehension seems to take back seat to unbridled rage. Plenty of people in "these threads" tend to take a dispassionate look and explain how this stuff works. Then they get accused of being "corporate apologists" or what have you. Some even say "and btw, my opinion is I don't like it" - and STILL get called corporate apologists.

In this particular case, it's quite true that software is licensed, whether physical or digital. The emotional connection people have to the idea of ownership notwithstanding and the rationalizations that connection inspires them to make.

Having said that, what Sony MAY be embarking on here (if they do not take further steps to address this issue) is bad news, for their reputation especially.

In the interests of not being categorized as an "apologist", I shall now say a corporation does bad things. *clears throat*

Sony really gives the aura that end user and customer concerns are essentially at the absolute bottom of their priority list. Worse than most, even worse than Microsoft in a lot of ways. In this case, what appears to have happened is that it isn't that Sony's DD system broke; they do have basic provisions for preserving the customer's right to a purchased PSN title in perpetuity. But when extraordinary circumstances hit Sony, they freak out and make rash, shoot-from-the-hip responses.

In this case, their response to the mere possibility of a full Vita hack was to not just bar future sales of the affected PSP games, but effectively destroy those games, wiping them from existence. With apparently no plan on what to do next to resolve the situation. (Until we hear otherwise.)

... and that does set a bad and scary precedent. It means that at the slightest hint of inconvenience for Sony, they will rip anything off PSN with very likely no provisions, forethought, or after-the-fact plan for fixing it. This is sobering and may be one of the first real significant fuckups that the major platform holders have made with DD. The fact that it involves a pair of "mere" PSP games is just the canary in the mineshaft.

For example, Zipper is apparently going out of business. Unit 13, the recently released title for Vita, is buggy and desperately needs support. What if a Vita exploit is discovered tomorrow due to how buggy the game is, and with no staff left to do real work on it, Sony just cancels the game's existence and rips it down?

What if a year from now some other significant game has a bug or issue uncovered that sets off Sony's berserker response to Playstation firmware hacks? If this new behavior is a sign of things to come, their response would be to crush the threat as clumsily as possible with no thought to the situation of their paying customers.

I think some of the people who defend these types of things are coming from the standpoint that they don't want what happened with the PSP, and more recently the PS3 to happen again. They probably also don't want to see Sony end up like Sega.

I did not own the PSP sadly, but from what I understand the PSP being hacked pretty much killed third party support for the PSP in many ways. It still got many great games, but would it have gotten more if not for the hack situation? Of course it's impossible to say for sure, but i'd probably wager it would have.

I also don't know if Sony's game division could survive the Vita seeing the same situation as i'm sure they have sunk a ton of money into it aswell. People just get attached to their console preference, I can say that when Sega announced they were jumping out of the hardware market it took me awhile to get over it because I loved alot of what they did.

I don't agree with this at all, but I also don't know if Sony are the only ones that we will be pointing the finger at in the future when the industry moves more and more into a DD standard. IIRC dident Apple do something like this on IOS years ago? I seem to recall something was pulled from IOS in a similar fashion as this, but I can't remember the specifics.
 

Burai

shitonmychest57
To be fair, the OP could just as easily call Sony (with a little effort) and get a full refund for said title.WAT.Goodness, the hyperbole get's more and more disgusting as days go by. I shudder to think what logical people will be called in the next few months / years...

"Logical" people? Do forgive me if I fail to see the logic in people who believe that EULAs are legally binding. Because they aren't.

And at what point does this cease to be logical? When it affects the defenders? What if Sony pulled the entire SEN store and everyone lost access to everything they ever bought? Then what? We all just shrug our shoulders at the loss of hundreds of dollars of legally purchased software because "the EULA said it might happen"?

Oh, yes, someone "logical" will come into this thread and tell me I'm being ridiculous and that could never, ever happen because of the bad PR. Much like how "logical" people were saying that the situation in the OP would never happen either back when Sony put the PSP library online for the PSP go. And yet here we are.
 

MrPliskin

Banned
"Logical" people? Do forgive me if I fail to see the logic in people who believe that EULAs are legally binding. Because they aren't.

And at what point does this cease to be logical? When it affects the defenders? What if Sony pulled the entire SEN store and everyone lost access to everything they ever bought? Then what? We all just shrug our shoulders at the loss of hundreds of dollars of legally purchased software because "the EULA said it might happen"?

Oh, yes, someone "logical" will come into this thread and tell me I'm being ridiculous and that could never, ever happen because of the bad PR. Much like how "logical" people were saying that the situation in the OP would never happen either back when Sony put the PSP library online for the PSP go. And yet here we are.

There is literally a tiny handful (if that) of defenders in this thread.

/kneejerk

Why am I not surprised...

Thisisneogaf.jpg

Also, how is calling someone a "corporate feltcher" NOT hyperbole? Furthermore, why are posters even allowed to blatantly instigate with such nonsense?
 
As of right now my request for a refund has been submitted to the Playstation Network team. From their last email:

So, I wait...
lol

Welcome to Sony's digital future!

They can have my UMDs when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers!!

courtesy?
refunding something you biught and they "disable" one-side is courtesy?
sony customer service ---> stupid shmuck...
 

Mandoric

Banned
"Logical" people? Do forgive me if I fail to see the logic in people who believe that EULAs are legally binding. Because they aren't.

Any agreement above and beyond the initial sale is in the consumer's favor, not Sony's. It's where the expectation of being able to come back later and download again, rather than having to save on your own, comes from.
 

Burai

shitonmychest57
There is literally a tiny handful (if that) of defenders in this thread.

/kneejerk

Why am I not surprised...

Thisisneogaf.jpg

Also, how is calling someone a "corporate feltcher" NOT hyperbole? Furthermore, why are posters even allowed to blatantly instigate with such nonsense?

I don't see what the number of defenders has to do with anything. Just a handful means that we don't get to argue back?

And if it is important, only one guy used the term "corporate felcher", so I don't understand why it's upset you.
 

BKK

Member
Please keep in mind that as per our user agreement we don't generally offer refunds. However, our network team will review your situation and make a decision accordingly. If they do offer a refund, it will be offered as a onetime courtesy. We will not be able to offer any additional refunds in the future.

Fucking outrageous, and almost certainly illegal in many territories too.
 
what property? what precisely did you own? the game's source code? you owned a license to play the game at sony's discretion. sony's discretion is such that nobody should be playing those games because of exploits.

the title of this thread is absolutely laughable.

oh dear
 

Luigiv

Member
what property? what precisely did you own? the game's source code? you owned a license to play the game at sony's discretion. sony's discretion is such that nobody should be playing those games because of exploits.

the title of this thread is absolutely laughable.

Almost right but unfortunately very, very wrong. He has purchased the rights to play the game at his own discretion not Sony's.

However, that being said, Sony is not preventing him from playing his games, just preventing him from using their servers to redownload the data, which is something else entirely. They're not uninstalling or blocking him from using games already installed on his system or transferable by other means (eg backed up on a PC).
 

BKK

Member
So do we know if the Wololo story was actually true? Maybe he was just trolling Sony.

He'd also be trolling his followers to waste their money on a game that doesn't even have an exploit though, which I doubt he'd do.

Funny why Sony is getting so aggressive about sandboxed PSP homebrew on Vita, they never even bothered to block PS2 Swap Magic from working on BC PS3s (they could have easily blocked it from working by blacklisting Crazy Taxi which shared the same code as Swap Magic).
 

Yagharek

Member
Almost right but unfortunately very, very wrong. He has purchased the rights to play the game at his own discretion not Sony's.

However, that being said, Sony is not preventing him from playing his games, just preventing him from using their servers to redownload the data, which is something else entirely. They're not uninstalling or blocking him from using games already installed on his system or transferable by other means (eg backed up on a PC).

Interesting distinction (which is obviously the case).

I wonder though - the game is sold as a package, yes? ie you are buying a license that gets you the game as a download and the right to download it onto x number of activated systems. Presumably that also means they are selling as part of that initial cost the actual ability to download it. If Sony are not upholding that part of the deal, then in the EU at least the OP should be getting a refund.

Just a thought.
 

Mandoric

Banned
Interesting distinction (which is obviously the case).

I wonder though - the game is sold as a package, yes? ie you are buying a license that gets you the game as a download and the right to download it onto x number of activated systems. Presumably that also means they are selling as part of that initial cost the actual ability to download it. If Sony are not upholding that part of the deal, then in the EU at least the OP should be getting a refund.

Just a thought.

The question is basically "how often" and "under which conditions".
For obvious reasons, they have to at least once under any reasonable use case.
North of that, barring specific promises, has a lot less to do with legal mandates and a lot more to do with making the customer happy. IMO, the "best way out" is a temporary withdrawal until a patch in the near future plus a small token for people who complain, with a full withdrawal + refund on complaint also OK but worse for everyone involved.
There are obvious huge technical problems with leaving it up, and a blanket refund would mostly go to people who don't care or who actually backed up their copy.

This is actually pretty important for Sony to work out policy on now, in a few months PSS will be out and at some point Pokemon the App is gonna get approved.
 

Yagharek

Member
The question is basically "how often" and "under which conditions".
For obvious reasons, they have to at least once under any reasonable use case.
North of that, barring specific promises, has a lot less to do with legal mandates and a lot more to do with making the customer happy. IMO, the "best way out" is a temporary withdrawal until a patch in the near future plus a small token for people who complain, with a full withdrawal + refund on complaint also OK but worse for everyone involved.
There are obvious huge technical problems with leaving it up, and a blanket refund would mostly go to people who don't care or who actually backed up their copy.

This is actually pretty important for Sony to work out policy on now, in a few months PSS will be out and at some point Pokemon the App is gonna get approved.

Pretty much what you've said is a reasonable rationale. What it comes down to is Sony (and all DD providers) need to do is make it absolutely crystal clear to the customers what they get and what they can expect to happen to their downloaded games.

There needs to be a clear policy exactly along the lines of physical retail and statutory warranties etc. Not an EULA (which few people read). But a blanket rule that means no-one has the excuse "I didnt know". That way people can spend their money accordingly.

At present it's more the case that what we find out about our download purchases is all the little nasty details one drip of information at a time - hence the malcontent.
 

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
Everybody's Tennis is the best sports title on the PSP too - I'd cause a stink as well. Can't spell fraud without Sony!

GIVE THE HUMAN THE TENNIS!
 

Mandoric

Banned
Pretty much what you've said is a reasonable rationale. What it comes down to is Sony (and all DD providers) need to do is make it absolutely crystal clear to the customers what they get and what they can expect to happen to their downloaded games.

There needs to be a clear policy exactly along the lines of physical retail and statutory warranties etc. Not an EULA (which few people read). But a blanket rule that means no-one has the excuse "I didnt know". That way people can spend their money accordingly.

At present it's more the case that what we find out about our download purchases is all the little nasty details one drip of information at a time - hence the malcontent.

I guess. I've always looked at it kind of like free refills at diners: Most places have it, some don't, jumping to the conclusion that the one you're at does is silly, and sometimes there are decent excuses for having to wait while the next pot of coffee brews.

Demanding a hard and fast rule just screws everyone involved, because no one can promise downloads forever and it's still going to have to include a "technical difficulties" way to weasel out. We'll get downloads that can still go away that we absolutely have to back up, and Sony will get all the bad PR that EA did when they put a soft 2-year cap in the Origin EULA.
 
I doubt that there's any chance Sony could escape their obligation to provide access to a copy of the game, as agreed under the contract, simply due to the small print of the EULA. Certainly, I do not think they could within the UK due to the operation (and interpretation) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, which renders unfair terms unenforceable. One of the factors the court has to take into account when deciding if a term is unfair is the relative strength of the parties.

I'm led to believe there exist EU Regulations which would mean many terms within an EULA would be unenforceable within the EU, though I've never studied them.

I would phone them and tell them they're required by law to provide access, regardless of the EULA, and see if that changes their tune. You'll probably need to force your way to a higher up though.
 

Yagharek

Member
I guess. I've always looked at it kind of like free refills at diners: Most places have it, some don't, jumping to the conclusion that the one you're at does is silly, and sometimes there are decent excuses for having to wait while the next pot of coffee brews.

Demanding a hard and fast rule just screws everyone involved, because no one can promise downloads forever and it's still going to have to include a "technical difficulties" way to weasel out. We'll get downloads that can still go away that we absolutely have to back up, and Sony will get all the bad PR that EA did when they put a soft 2-year cap in the Origin EULA.

The reason i think it would be nice to know the baseline expectations is from my experience with Final Fight on PSN. Granted, in practice, the DRM on it doesn't affect me 99% of the time. But if I'm travelling or my ADSL connection is down for whatever reason, I can't play the game. That's not the problem though - the problem is that when I bought the game, I bought it under the assumption it was like every other PSN game. It wasn't, and Sony/Capcom didnt clarify the inclusion of said DRM until a few weeks after it went on sale.
 
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