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DD Fraud: Sony is Embezzling 2 Games from Me (Everybody's Tennis/Motorstor:AE)

jorma

is now taking requests
Heh, embezzled. Don't mean to be glib, but that's not embezzlement.

edit: That's not to say I think it's right what they did.

It's hyperbolic yeah. It's sort of like calling copyright infringement "theft". :p

But the game will be back in the pal store i'm sure. If they don't they will be sued, and Sony are probably not ready to try and defend their EULAS in a EU court just yet, because they will most assuredly lose and everyone will have proper legal precedent to call their EULAS out as invalid.
 

Mandoric

Banned
The reason i think it would be nice to know the baseline expectations is from my experience with Final Fight on PSN. Granted, in practice, the DRM on it doesn't affect me 99% of the time. But if I'm travelling or my ADSL connection is down for whatever reason, I can't play the game. That's not the problem though - the problem is that when I bought the game, I bought it under the assumption it was like every other PSN game. It wasn't, and Sony/Capcom didnt clarify the inclusion of said DRM until a few weeks after it went on sale.

Yeah, if they know in advance games are different from normal they should have an up-front warning.
 

DeVeAn

Member
All I can say is I love the idea of DD BUT, the day I start having games removed from my account/HDD I will resort to more shady options. I invest way to much into games to be taken for a fool.
 
In a way that's even worse. It means, say, someone could make a false claim that there's an exploit in ANY game and get it ripped down, despite the fact there is in fact no exploit to be made. Thus someone who wants to just troll or actively remove a game they don't like gets disproportionate power.

I actually considered listing examples, but the last thing I want to do is give anyone ideas.

Yes because if they have documented glitch I'm sure they won't bother trying to replicate it and just pull game without even trying ...
 

Dunan

Member
It redirects you to the local site based on the IP. Just add UK or US before Playstation.com and you're good to go.

IP-based redirects should be illegal. When you type a URL into your browser, you should get that exact URL, not the URL that the owner of that URL thinks that you really want to see. This paternal second-guessing is a nuisance and has to stop.

At the very least, bring up a language-selection page so that the users can say that they really do want the language that they specified.

(I'd pay extra to my provider if I could have a permanent IP address with no country attached to it. Make my location Antarctica and let me see the web in whatever language I like.)
 

El-Suave

Member
I've had customer service dealings with all three hardware manufacturers, although they're not comparable I would say Sony's was easily the worst, especially if you're not UK based apparently.

The Euro PSN Store initially overpriced Beyond Good and Evil, and the PS Blog said we should contact customer service in our countries - I did and the German phone hotline guy knew nothing about the matter and said he had to forward the isssue to the UK. Haven't heard from them since.

At the Vita launch there was a problem with the Mutant Blob downloadable game, the version they uploaded wouldn't install. GAF helped me out with a course of action and I contacted Sony via e-mail. Weeks later I got a response saying they were sorry they're late and that I should call their hotline, which I would have done anyway if the number wasn't so VERY hard to find on their Vita websites - if it is there at all. Didn't get around to calling immediately and in the meantime all of a sudden I have a refund to my PSN balance. This is the desired outcome but there was no communication on Sony's part and if my balance hadn't been zero before I might not even have noticed.
 
What does that particular golf game's EULA say about it being your property? And I'm not trying to be a douchebag, because it's crucial.

what property? what precisely did you own? the game's source code? you owned a license to play the game at sony's discretion. sony's discretion is such that nobody should be playing those games because of exploits.

the title of this thread is absolutely laughable.

I don't want to be that guy here, but technically you paid for a license to play those games. Sony (and many other companies) have clauses basically saying you don't own anything and that they can revoke any digital content at any time.

It's messed up. Hopefully you will be reimbursed some how.

OP may be in Europe, EULA's aren't necessarily binding over here.

I'm happy that the first page has both posts about the incredible power of EULAs (lol!), and rational folks saying they are crap. Btw, I'm pretty sure if you dig deep enough US law also takes precedence over legal-mambo-jumbo written by corporate lawyers. Too bad US law is so vague, which kinda defeats a point of it being the law.
 
The issue isn't IP based, but covering how consumption of software works. You're not buying direct access to the content, but a specific way of interact with that content. It isn't (usually) intended that you just have direct access to specific audio, art, or content files and it especially isn't intended to allow you to claim ownership of those individual files because companies want to restrict redistribution and usage of those parts.

Books are a bad example because you can't really dissect the book for its parts, it is built to be consumed as a whole. And I'm not claiming it is right or wrong to allow complete restriction of something you paid for, but the reality of software is that you don't own anything but directed access to it based on terms presented to you by the developers.

No, software is exactly the same as all other forms of intellectual content.
The form of interaction doesn't exempt the seller from fullfilling it's advertised obligation. At least in Europe once you buy something, the seller has no legal ground to withhold it or revoke it regardless of the nature of what it is. Software on traditional disks is no different to movies, books, music or pictures in that regard. You own the copy and are allowed to personally consume, enjoy, destroy it at your discretion. You don't however purchase any sort of intellectual ownership of the content, which means that by purchasing it you aren't allowed to resell parts or the whole content as your own creation. Technically you are also forbidden to broadcast it, but that's a legal greyzone especially when it comes to interactive content, as a publisher can't claim ownership on 3rd party produced video of an interaction. It gets more complicated than that, but that would take us too far OT.

Digital Distribution is not considered a purchase in any legal sense. It's leasing at best, and a one time payment for a revokable license at worst. You pay for a license.that allows you access to parts of a distribution channel and interaction with paid for content, but legally you don't even get ownership of the license to use this content.

I fully expect the EU to mandate better conditions for consumers of digital distributed content in the next few years, as of now there is literally nothing that would stop companies like Sony to accept payment and immediately revoke access to the content outside of common business sense. With the increase of online scams in recent years i expect some legislation concerning digital distribution and a legal definition of ownership status when it comes full digital content copies.
 
I'm happy that the first page has both posts about the incredible power of EULAs (lol!), and rational folks saying they are crap. Btw, I'm pretty sure if you dig deep enough US law also takes precedence over legal-mambo-jumbo written by corporate lawyers. Too bad US law is so vague, which kinda defeats a point of it being the law.

I don't think that is something related to EULA. If you have a defective product and you have to took it down from the service, and put it again as soon as the product is safe. This happens all the time.

Nobody would complain if those games were took down, not because they can open a hack, because they had a virus or some kind of weird bug that can overheat the console, or has a privacy leak that can make someone steal your psn id. People is complaining not because they took away the games, is complaining because they don't agree about why they took away the games.

But Sony should explain what the hell happen with that, and when all people that have the game will be able to download it again. It won't be acceptable to took them out forever.
 

Burai

shitonmychest57
I don't think that is something related to EULA. If you have a defective product and you have to took it down from the service, and put it again as soon as the product is safe. This happens all the time.Nobody would complain if those games were took down, not because they can open a hack, because they had a virus or some kind of weird bug that can overheat the console, or has a privacy leak that can make someone steal your psn id. People is complaining not because they took away the games, is complaining because they don't agree about why they took away the games.But Sony should explain what the hell happen with that, and when all people that have the game will be able to download it again. It won't be acceptable to took them out forever.

That'a the biggest problem here. The lack of transparency. If they'd sent an email/PSN message to everyone that owns the software as to what was going on and how they are going to resolve the issue, I don't think anyone would be that upset.

But they didn't. The software is gone, we don't know how this is going to be resolved and Sony don't want to tell us. Maybe it's all a huge misunderstanding. Maybe Sony hope that not enough people will notice and they'll get to keep the cash and provide nothing in return.

All I know is that this industry wants to go digital distribution only and Sony are doing a pretty great job of convincing consumers that this isn't a good idea.
 

BigDug13

Member
what property? what precisely did you own? the game's source code? you owned a license to play the game at sony's discretion. sony's discretion is such that nobody should be playing those games because of exploits.

the title of this thread is absolutely laughable.

But don't you think acts like this will push people further away from legitimate sources when those legitimate sources decide to give you the finger and take it away? I'd rather stick to my ability to play PS1 on my PSP than get a Vita and have paid games stolen from me.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
I always thought the standard in these situations was to take a product off the store but to leave it on download lists/histories so previous purchasers could still access it. If that's not happening in these cases you're right to kick up a stink about it. It's fine to restrict access going forward, but not retroactively for purchasers, and certainly not without good compensation in very pressing circumstances (e.g. if the company had been legally obliged to take it off for everyone).
 

tzare

Member
i find it ok to remove the games..... but only if they return fixed after a while. If they don't they should refund legit customers obviously.
 

mclem

Member
I'd like to see these matters (not just with Sony) taken to higher court and judgment passed. The concept of "ownership" really needs to be clarified.

I've said a few times: I think software licenses being locked down as a legal concept is the way things *should* go - tying virtual product to physical product has never felt appropriate to me, nor has regarding the same virtual product in two very different ways whether it's sent through DD or on a physical disc. The product is the same, the means of distribution should not affect its legal standing, but it does.

However, any change to give software licenses rock-solid legal backing should be married to an explicit code of *rights* any purchasers of such licenses would have, and what guarantees they have to use that license to acquire a playable copy of the software at any given time. What Sony's doing here should not be permissible; by all means withdraw the item from sale, but don't disallow future downloads.
 

Dunlop

Member
I would say call back and escalate to someone that will at least reimburse you but in all my dealings with Sony call center I have learned that they are pretty much useless.
 
I don't think that is something related to EULA. If you have a defective product and you have to took it down from the service, and put it again as soon as the product is safe. This happens all the time.

Nobody would complain if those games were took down, not because they can open a hack, because they had a virus or some kind of weird bug that can overheat the console, or has a privacy leak that can make someone steal your psn id. People is complaining not because they took away the games, is complaining because they don't agree about why they took away the games.

But Sony should explain what the hell happen with that, and when all people that have the game will be able to download it again. It won't be acceptable to took them out forever.
No. I'm complaining very specifically that they removed my access to a game I bought, without informing me or compensating me in any way. I don't give a rat's ass what their reason is for taking the game down off the network. I paid for the right to play it when I want, and I want to play it. Provide it, or give me my money back.

Just one question: Can you backup games that you bought from PSN on your PC?
Sort of.

With the PSP, you can back up the PSP, PSX and Minis you download to your PC via Media Go. These games are stored on your harddrive and you can install them on any PSP running under your account (up to five if purchased before Nov, 2011, up to two systems if purchased afterward).

With the Vita, you can "backup" your games only after they have been installed on your Vita. By running Content Manager you can copy the game file from the Vita to your PC, but you remove the game and your save files from your Vita at the same time. You can only keep one copy of your content - either it's on the PC or it's on the Vita, but it can't be on both. That's not a "backup" technically - backup implies a duplicate and here there is only one copy... I don't know what happens if the game file becomes corrupt, but I suspect you lose everything, as Sony have not provided a method for backing up save files seperate from the game files with the Vita.
 

Maedhros

Member
No. I'm complaining very specifically that they removed my access to a game I bought, without informing me or compensating me in any way. I don't give a rats ass what their reason for taking the game down is. I paid for the right to play it when I want, and I want to play it. Provide it, or give me my money back.

Playing when you want is what you paid for? Are you sure?

Is that how DD works? I thought they could drop the service any time they wanted. For example, Steam could drop their service right now, what would happen if you didn't have backups of the game you bought there?
 

snap0212

Member
Playing when you want is what you paid for? Are you sure?

Is that how DD works? I thought they could drop the service any time they wanted. For example, Steam could drop their service right now, what would happen if you didn't have backups of the game you bought there?
You're right and wrong. Sony's ToS say that they must not allow you to re-download content you've purchased. However, nothing Sony says about the PSN (outside of their endless ToS/EULA) mentions that they would not let you re-download content. They specifically mention that you can re-download it after you've purchased it. Their ToS also don't mention that you have to download the game right away (right after purchasing it), it simply doesn't mention that they'll only provide the service if you request it right away.

Games have been pulled in the past (Silent Hill PSX in Europe, for example) but people who have purchased these games have always been able to redownload them. Some licenses have run out so games are not offered on the PSN anymore. If you have bought it prior to the date they pulled it from the Store you can still download them though.

That's completely ignoring that Sony's ToS would not hold up in any European court anyways. Especially not since they tell you something (in their ToS) that's completely different from what Sony is advertising their products with (on their website).
 
Come on, everytime pretty much EVER something like this has happened people have gotten refunds and something small to compensate.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I always thought the standard in these situations was to take a product off the store but to leave it on download lists/histories so previous purchasers could still access it. If that's not happening in these cases you're right to kick up a stink about it. It's fine to restrict access going forward, but not retroactively for purchasers, and certainly not without good compensation in very pressing circumstances (e.g. if the company had been legally obliged to take it off for everyone).

Persona conjecture but based on experience I have a suspicion it's more true than not - Companies have, so far, coasted on the DD "rights" issue because it's all new, and nothing truly major has come up. It's not unlike the epic PSN outage was really kinda new thing and unexplored territory. In that case, Sony ALSO didn't really respond all that well to an unexpected development. (Slow to inform users, anemic apology and "compensation", lack of transparency on when PSN might return.)

With DD purchases, it's relatively simple even in a logistical sense to keep the files for past purchases on servers so that people can redownload, in the even that something comes up and prevents further sales of the product. But that's a passive solution to potential bumps down the road. It doesn't require planning for investments of time, money, or personnel to deal with more serious issues.

For example, one problem with software is that much, or even most, of the time, the original development team isn't available a short while after the software is released, to perform further modifications to the software. In many cases the source code and assets for compiling a new version, especially with games, may be difficult or expensive to access.

When something happens like a DD game actually causing problems for the platform (such as security breaches), there's even odds that it won't be trivial to "fix the game" and re-upload the file. Way too many inconveniences could prevent a cheap and quick solution. In that case, the most expedient thing for the platform holder to do... is nuke the game from orbit, and remove the possibility of anyone from either getting access to the file ever again.

From the corporate perspective, it's simple, fast, a sure fix, and most of all... cheap.

Problem is it violates the end user and customer.

In the case of these particular PSP games in the current situation, I wouldn't doubt that it's probably not possible to simply "fix" the exploits in either game and re-upload a fresh version because development assets and resources have long since vanished and moved on. It might cost Sony a noticeable fee, either in money, or time, or both, to actually create new versions of these old games.

Perhaps its possible to rule out the exploits with a Vita firmware update. But if it's not, then the games simply must go and will never return.

Which means its a rather serious problem that the platform holder never allowed for in their planning - how to secure the purchases of a customer if more serious issues than "we lost the license to sell new copies" crops up down the road. Because from what I can see, that is just about the ONLY potential future problem than any of the major platform holders for DD have accounted for. Everything else... is murky. And companies tend to do things for their own benefit and convenience rather than good relations with the public.

So, I think how Sony plays this hand in the near future will be very interesting to see. FYI, while one of the folks involved has indeed gotten some form of communication back, don't forget what happened with the online pass debacle on the Vita a few weeks go... some call / email reps were telling people strange and worrying things that ended up being overruled by higher ups once a real solution was found.

Come on, everytime pretty much EVER something like this has happened people have gotten refunds and something small to compensate.

While this is basically true, I think the bigger concern over the future of DD is what has a lot of people taken aback. It's not just about the refunds (though that's important). It's more disturbing that one of the points of DD is being undercut so readily. Bad precedent for the future.
 
Love the outcries of "our future is doomed because of DD!" because of this. Relax. They're just patching the exploits. It will all be okay and you'll get your games back.
 

web01

Member
I really doubt they are going to bother patching the exploits in old psp games
especially if they do not even know how they are activated. These games are gone for good
from psn.
 

Wario64

works for Gamestop (lol)
Love the outcries of "our future is doomed because of DD!" because of this. Relax. They're just patching the exploits. It will all be okay and you'll get your games back.

Motorstorm has been pulled for over a month with no explanation. Right.
 
I really doubt they are going to bother patching the exploits in old psp games
especially if they do not even know how they are activated. These games are gone for good
from psn.

Yup, from the DLC excuses I hear these days, game devs seem horrible at establishing budgets, let alone setting aside a management reserve to address cases like these. These games aren't "hot" anymore, so they have no incentive, or money, to fix the problem at hand.
 

LuchaShaq

Banned
Waiting for a 5$ or less journey sale now. Not buying anything D/D on a Sony platform above 5$ unless everyone affected gets full refunds.

Was going to be my first d/d purchase from them since psn leak and my hours upon hours dealing with my email getting taken (never got it back) and all the accounts attached to it. 15-20 hours of phone calls and emails and I got 2 free 10$ games....yeah fuck off.
 

depward

Member
And who's going to fix MotorStorm...? =(

This quote is great, simply because they've had an issue with players not being able to login to play online (I was one of them). Their solution? "Create a new PSN username." Uhhh, yeah, no thanks?

I own both of these titles. Motorstorm was good fun and I LOVE Hot Shots Tennis. This is kind of bullshit, especially how they haven't specifically mentioned anything about it.
 

test_account

XP-39C²
This quote is great, simply because they've had an issue with players not being able to login to play online (I was one of them). Their solution? "Create a new PSN username." Uhhh, yeah, no thanks?
Is this even possible? The PSP only supports one PSN username at the time, and if you change, then you lose access to that previous content as far as i know.
 

Wario64

works for Gamestop (lol)
Is this even possible? The PSP only supports one PSN username at the time, and if you change, then you lose access to that previous content as far as i know.

Probably not, but this is the Sony that tells you to go buy PSN cards if you have problems buying stuff on PSN with your credit card (which many people do have trouble)
 

test_account

XP-39C²
Probably not, but this is the Sony that tells you to go buy PSN cards if you have problems buying stuff on PSN with your credit card (which many people do have trouble)
Hehe, well, at least that is a solution for some :) Assuming that they have access to buy PSN cards. Changing account would require people to rebuy the game, not much of a viable solution. But yeah, having to buy a PSN card doesnt really fix the problem with not being able to use a creditcard.
 
Yeah right, let's just ignore this problem.

A problem would be another hack of PSN or something similar. Being unable to download these two titles while they patch them is not a problem, it's an inconvenience.

Sony's really damned either way. They pull the titles immediately once they recognize the exploit and they're a-holes. If they wait and then that exploit grows into something more dangerous then they get criticized for not moving fast enough.

But that's okay, just like after the PSN hack they'll offer up a month of plus and a free $4 game and a promise to never let it happen again and then all will be forgotten.

In any case, Sony is not doing anything sinister here.
 

mclem

Member
A problem would be another hack of PSN or something similar. Being unable to download these two titles while they patch them is not a problem, it's an inconvenience.

Having a guarantee that they *will* patch them would help; it's not like they "just patched" OtherOS. And - if the problem's in the games, who's *going* to patch 'em? Do Sony have access to coders who have the game code structures fresh in their mind?

Code rot exists, and it increases *massively* when you lose the programmers who made it.
 

neoemonk

Member
Everyone affected by this should get together and file a class action lawsuit.

Oh wait you can't because you gave that right away in order to use the PSN.
 

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
Ever have a game company come to your house and take your game cartridges/discs?

Welcome to the world of DD and the reality that your purchases are under complete control of the companies you purchase them from.

But hey, no control over your purchases is totally worth not having to get up from the sofa to change a disc.
 
They should say when it will be patched or give out refunds. But taking away games you paid for is uncalled for and there should be compensation.
 

Eusis

Member
Or, you know, ask for a refund.
And if that (or word on returning to the store) failed? If they keep this up they'd NEED to be hit with a class action lawsuit, but this puts us at risk of it just being thrown out because THE EULA SAID YOU CAN'T DO THAT. Like I said before, DD would be easier to trust if we had a political climate that was more pro-consumer at the moment, just because we might actually have laws that help protect us within reason rather than letting companies do whatever the fuck they feel like.
 
And if that (or word on returning to the store) failed? If they keep this up they'd NEED to be hit with a class action lawsuit, but this puts us at risk of it just being thrown out because THE EULA SAID YOU CAN'T DO THAT. Like I said before, DD would be easier to trust if we had a political climate that was more pro-consumer at the moment, just because we might actually have laws that help protect us within reason rather than letting companies do whatever the fuck they feel like.

Why would it fail?


Also has apple been hit with a class action lawsuit because of it? Serious question.
 

Jac_Solar

Member
Imagine how it'd be like if they stopped selling physical copies of games, and started selling them online ONLY -- and that seems like a possibility, apparently, according to magazines/general tone of the subject when it's brought up in articles and such.

Playing games is great, but many people also really like having a collection of games on their shelves. Owning a copy of a game isn't the same as owning a game online. Doesn't really feel like it's yours in the way that a physical copy does.

How can anyone be cool with this? A company that you bought something from, paid legally, just took it back without a refund? That is literally stealing, regardless of any EULA -- that has been common sense all through human history. It is stealing.
 

TeegsD

Member
Cases like these are why I'm in no particular hurry for an all DD future. Physical copies are still the way to go.
 

Volcynika

Member
How does Steam handle this issue?

Removal of games? Just you can't purchase them, but if you have already, you can still download it since it is associated with your account. The content remains available to those that bought it. I haven't heard of any cases (maybe I missed them) where buyers can't download it or even see it on their account.
 
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