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[Pie and Beans]

Gabe is getting a bit too bitchy on twitter.
Get the stick out of your ass Gabe.

Remember, by removing the immeasurable time vampire and blight that is advertising sourcing on these talented hard working gentlemen, they will have all the time in the world to bring new and exciting content to your eyes in the form of a few full size comic pages a year of offshoot properties and not spend endless amounts of time on petty twitter wars or otherwise.

 

[Kintaro]

btw, according to a Gabe tweet, they made a special arrangement with Kickstarter beforehand. So, yeah. It's about dat money.

some real pedantry there. 'i didn't give a negative opinion about it, i just insulted it'.

You honestly don't think someone can go "Eh, that's stupid but if it works for them, whatever's clever?" That's basically what was said. Basically what a lot of people are saying.

Jim Sterling ‏@JimSterling

For those asking: I think the Penny Arcade KS is dumb because, as someone who's supported by ads and *never* been censored, I don't see...
... the supposed creative freedom that comes with not having them. Now if people want to pay for it, cool, but I see no merit in it myself.

Makes sense to me.

 

[Last Hearth]

Not surprised.

Kickstarter has always been .1% legitimate ideas looking for funding and 99.9% minor celebrities leveraging their notoriety to separate fools from their money.

 

[AkuMifune]

The more I think about it the more selfish this seems. They don't like the ads and they want to take advantage of the goodwill of their fans to get rid of them.

They are also doing very well. This is not the kind of thing that deserves a kickstarter, and kinda shits on all the other legit kickstarters out there.

Sure it's a business, blah blah, but these guys are living the dream and have to put up with a modicum of reality in their lives, their ads, and they don't even want to deal with those now. People throw around the fact that gamers feel entitled to shit, but this seems like a real bitchy entitled move.

 

[Sinatar]

During the 10 seconds a week it takes to read the penny arcade strips do people really get that annoyed by banner ads?

Really?

 

[StrikerObi]

Was there really an outcry for this? I mean, I love PA, and I've never minded the ads...

It just seems like there are so many better things they could fund than something that, by their own admission, won't change the content at all.

Well, if you look at the stretch goals, it WILL change their content. If they aren't charging companies to do custom commissioned game comics, it means they can do other stuff. If they hit $550k, it means they have replaced enough of their ad and commission revenue that they will be able to make the comics they want. In this case, a Lookouts comic. Either Nintendo pays them to do a custom Skyward Sword comic (or Ubisoft for an Assassin's Creed comic, etc.), or we pay them to do a Lookouts comic. It's that simple.

 

[plagiarize]

Well, if you look at the stretch goals, it WILL change their content. If they aren't charging companies to do custom commissioned game comics, it means they can do other stuff. If they hit $550k, it means they have replaced enough of their ad and commission revenue that they will be able to make the comics they want. In this case, a Lookouts comic. Either Nintendo pays them to do a custom Skyward Sword comic (or Ubisoft for an Assassin's Creed comic, etc.), or we pay them to do a Lookouts comic. It's that simple.

right. Penny Arcade is a company. right now they make their money from video game companies, either running adverts or being commissioned by them. it's not greedy or entitled to want to make that money from the readers instead is it? certainly not when it isn't being forced on anyone.

 

[StrikerObi]

right. Penny Arcade is a company. right now they make their money from video game companies, either running adverts or being commissioned by them. it's not greedy or entitled to want to make that money from the readers instead is it? certainly not when it isn't being forced on anyone.

Right. The end user really has nothing to lose in this scenario. Will anybody really be upset if they get rid of the ads? If they don't reach the goal, then the ads stay and nobody gets charged.

Honestly, the worse case scenario is that they reach the initial $250k goal, and nothing else. It would feel like a waste at that point to me. Paying to get rid of one ad is kind of pointless. If I'm paying to get rid of ads, I want them all gone (at least on the homepage).

Personally, I'm very excited that a fully ad-free Penny Arcade means they can publish the comic and news posts inside the RSS feed. Right now they only provide links to the main page, so they get the ads views. But without the ads, I will be able to read the content on the platform of my choice. I'd love to read PA directly on Flipboard or Google Reader.

The point is that Penny Arcade will make their $1,000,000 a year regardless. So how is it "entitled" to ask for direct funding. It's equally "entitled" of them to ask the advertisers for money. People seem to forget that PA is not a hobby. It is a business.

 

[plagiarize]

You honestly don't think someone can go "Eh, that's stupid but if it works for them, whatever's clever?" That's basically what was said. Basically what a lot of people are saying.

of course he can say that and of course he can think that. what i think is splitting hairs is to then try to claim that it wasn't a criticism, because clearly saying something is stupid is criticising it, and sure he didn't use the exact words 'i don't like it', but so what?

i don't think anyone in this thread calling it dumb would get upset if i said they didn't like the kickstarter. because you know, they think it's a dumb idea.

 

[storafötter]

I could swear they made fun of the kick-starter concept of people giving out false promises. So it is interesting seeing them going this route.

 

[BattleMonkey]

During the 10 seconds a week it takes to read the penny arcade strips do people really get that annoyed by banner ads?

Really?

Yea years of reading PA and I've never once been bothered by some small ads.

 

[DarkSoul520]

Right. The end user really has nothing to lose in this scenario. Will anybody really be upset if they get rid of the ads? If they don't reach the goal, then the ads stay and nobody gets charged.

Honestly, the worse case scenario is that they reach the initial $250k goal, and nothing else. It would feel like a waste at that point to me. Paying to get rid of one ad is kind of pointless. If I'm paying to get rid of ads, I want them all gone (at least on the homepage).

Personally, I'm very excited that a fully ad-free Penny Arcade means they can publish the comic and news posts inside the RSS feed. Right now they only provide links to the main page, so they get the ads views. But without the ads, I will be able to read the content on the platform of my choice. I'd love to read PA directly on Flipboard or Google Reader.

The point is that Penny Arcade will make their $1,000,000 a year regardless. So how is it "entitled" to ask for direct funding. It's equally "entitled" of them to ask the advertisers for money. People seem to forget that PA is not a hobby. It is a business.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[mavs]

The more I think about it the more selfish this seems. They don't like the ads and they want to take advantage of the goodwill of their fans to get rid of them.

They are also doing very well. This is not the kind of thing that deserves a kickstarter, and kinda shits on all the other legit kickstarters out there.

Sure it's a business, blah blah, but these guys are living the dream and have to put up with a modicum of reality in their lives, their ads, and they don't even want to deal with those now. People throw around the fact that gamers feel entitled to shit, but this seems like a real bitchy entitled move.

Really? They're asking for money, with basically no consequences either way. It's not "site closes if we don't get money", there is no effect if this kickstarter fails. That doesn't square with 'entitled', let alone 'bitchy'. A kickstarter like this doesn't even count as putting your hand out when they freely admit there's no reason to give them anything.

 

[megalowho]

The point is that Penny Arcade will make their $1,000,000 a year regardless. So how is it "entitled" to ask for direct funding. It's equally "entitled" of them to ask the advertisers for money. People seem to forget that PA is not a hobby. It is a business.

Advertising revenue is directly proportionate to the volume of traffic a website attracts, all those eyes are what give the ads value. In Penny Arcade's case, let's say for argument's sake that number is $1m.

Now if by 2013 site readership goes up by a noticeable percentage, should that be reflected by, say, a $1.3m goal for no ads? Ostensibly if their site growth is worth more to advertisers, why shouldn't they be compensated fairly from the crowd since that's what they're replacing. And if the numbers decrease, will they ask for less since they'd be worth less to advertising partners?

Not trying to hate and less pissed off that I was originally, they can do whatever they want. Legitimately interested in what happens when you take away a concrete metric for a website's worth (ad revenue) and replace it with something more nebulous, or nothing at all.

 

[ElNarez]

My stance, but told way more eloquently:
http://iamdavidbrothers.com/post/26928458012/we-spoke-to-kickstarter-ahead-of-time-to-make

The thing is, when you’re asking for a quarter million, minimum, there shouldn’t be any pretending involved. PA DOES exist, PA DOES make a ton of money, and PA DOES put on two different extremely popular conventions. The fact that PA DOES exist, and has legions of fans, is what makes this Kickstarter a likely success, even though it violates Kickstarter’s terms.

To pretend otherwise is foolish. The PA crew aren’t starving artists. They make money, their job is to make money, and they are asking for more money under the umbrella of “working for their fans” (you don’t work for me if I cannot fire you, you don’t work with me if I can’t tell you no, you do not work for me if you do not make me money) and a tongue-in-cheek reference to “selling out” to their fans, instead of to the advertisers that currently pay their bills.

It’s a cheat. It’s doublespeak.

Pretend like Penny Arcade never existed. How much is the first year of an unproven webcomic about video games and nerds worth to you? A quarter milli?

 

[Ceebs]

Gabe is getting a bit too bitchy on twitter.





Get the stick out of your ass Gabe.

You would think people would have learned to not reply or antagonize him over Twitter by now.

 

[Mairu]

btw, according to a Gabe tweet, they made a special arrangement with Kickstarter beforehand. So, yeah. It's about dat money.

Link to the tweet? I was hoping there was a legitimate explanation as to why the project was approved on Kickstarter when it doesn't seem like it matches their guidelines appropriately.

 

[StrikerObi]

Advertising revenue is directly proportionate to the volume of traffic a website attracts, all those eyes are what give the ads value. In Penny Arcade's case, let's say for argument's sake that number is $1m.

Now if by 2013 site readership goes up by a noticeable percentage, should that be reflected by, say, a $1.3m goal for no ads? Ostensibly if their site growth is worth more to advertisers, why shouldn't they be compensated fairly from the crowd since that's what they're replacing. And if the numbers decrease, will they ask for less since they'd be worth less to advertising partners?

Not trying to hate and less pissed off that I was originally, they can do whatever they want. Legitimately interested in what happens when you take away a concrete metric for a website's worth (ad revenue) and replace it with something more nebulous, or nothing at all.

This is really interesting. I'm very interested to see how it plays out in the future. The $1M came direct from PA's books, so I think we can trust that (though I assume they rounded it a bit to make it a nice even target).

What interests me the most is if they are successful this year, but not next. What happens if they remove all their ads for a year, and next year they need to bring the ads back. Will the advertisers be happy with that? It may be more difficult for them to find advertisers in the future. However, my initial assumption is that it won't be, since advertisers want the eyeballs PA can bring in.

 

[Risible]

Something I've always been curious about with all the charity organizations that various celebrities create, or things like Child's Play. Do the companies/celebs get to write that money off as a tax deduction against their company?

 

[plagiarize]

My stance, but told way more eloquently:
http://iamdavidbrothers.com/post/26928458012/we-spoke-to-kickstarter-ahead-of-time-to-make

again though, there is no standard that one has to meet before asking for any amount of money in pledges whether through kickstarter or not, nor should there be.

if you get more than you asked for, you weren't asking for too much. if you don't get more than you asked for, you were. there doesn't need to be anything else, so long as what you are asking for the money for is clear, which in this case it is.

 

[Zabka]

Link to the tweet? I was hoping there was a legitimate explanation as to why the project was approved on Kickstarter when it doesn't seem like it matches their guidelines appropriately.

Not positive why it was approved but I can guess it's because Kickstarter and Amazon get a cut of each successful Kickstarter. They can earn an easy $50k+ off this.

 

[ElNarez]

again though, there is no standard that one has to meet before asking for any amount of money in pledges whether through kickstarter or not, nor should there be.

if you get more than you asked for, you weren't asking for too much. if you don't get more than you asked for, you were. there doesn't need to be anything else, so long as what you are asking for the money for is clear, which in this case it is.

Y'know, save for the part where there is, at least for Kickstarter. It's called the Kickstarter Terms of Service.

 

[DJ Lushious]

Agreed. It's the NPR model. Nobody donates $500 to NPR for a tote bag. The tote bag is a small way that NPR can say "thank you". It's a visual reminder of their thanks for your support, and it puts NPR's name out there when you use it to carry your groceries... They are using it to ask for funding, and they are offering incentive gifts as a thank you, just like NPR.

The analogies to NPR are so out of left field. The only thing PA and NPR have in common is that there's money involved. I'll see if I can break it down:

NPR is a public service, operating as a not-for-profit entity. They are partially funded by tax payer's dollars, but this funding source is gradually shrinking. Their pledge drives are an opportunity to secure fiscal resources that cover the difference between what grants they receive and their actual operating cost, normally for the upcoming fiscal year.

Penny Arcade is a private entity, with no investors and no stock or share holders, who operate for the sole purpose of being profitable. They are asking for money to take current resources and move them into other business operations, at the expense of removing one of their current revenue streams.

PA straight out saying that this Kickstarter does not affect their operations if it does or does not succeed is such a red flag as to why they are even attempting such a thing. This isn't "fundraising," this is an investment into Penny Arcade with no capital gains. Which, well, isn't a smart fiscal move on the part of the "supporters" of this Kickstarter.

 

[Card Boy]

really

I know they're attempting to be funny, but it's really not.

Mr. Negativity.

 

[plagiarize]

Y'know, save for the part where there is, at least for Kickstarter. It's called the Kickstarter Terms of Service.

who wrote those terms of service? who has the right to change those terms of service whenever they want? who agreed that the Penny Arcade kickstarter was fine?

i'm talking about the bit where David Brothers says 'when you’re asking for a quarter million, minimum, there shouldn’t be any pretending involved.' as if the amount of money even comes into it.

of course, that he then next blogs desperately trying to sell pictures so that his computer WHICH IS ABOUT TO CRASH ANY MINUTE can be replaced and so he can keep his work going forever PLEASE REBLOG... kind of makes the criticism slightly hilarious to me.

makes the whole thing reek of jealousy on his part, if you don't mind me saying.

to my knowledge, nothing in the Kickstarter terms of service says 'if you can get your endeavour funded through other means you aren't allowed to try to get it funded through kickstarter.' how is this any different to, say, a musician wanting to leave the studio system and make their next album independantly funded?

 

[NervousXtian]

Something I've always been curious about with all the charity organizations that various celebrities create, or things like Child's Play. Do the companies/celebs get to write that money off as a tax deduction against their company?

They probably can write off the time and money they spend taking care of it, but pretty damn certain that was never their intent in starting it.

If you were there when Child's Play first started it was a pretty small endeavor that grew to like crazy.

They did it because they thought it'd be a cool nice thing to do. I don't think they thought it'd ever become this big thing.

 

[snorggy]

has this been posted yet?

http://bapeonion.tumblr.com/post/26923425217/i-hope-penny-arcades-kickstarter-is-an-amazing

 

[JABEE]

The analogies to NPR are so out of left field. The only thing PA and NPR have in common is that there's money involved. I'll see if I can break it down:

NPR is a public service, operating as a not-for-profit entity. They are partially funded by tax payer's dollars, but this funding source is gradually shrinking. Their pledge drives are an opportunity to secure fiscal resources that cover the difference between what grants they receive and their actual operating cost, normally for the upcoming fiscal year.

Penny Arcade is a private entity, with no investors and no stock or share holders, who operate for the sole purpose of being profitable. They are asking for money to take current resources and move them into other business operations, at the expense of removing one of their current revenue streams.

PA straight out saying that this Kickstarter does not affect their operations if it does or does not succeed is such a red flag as to why they are even attempting such a thing. This isn't "fundraising," this is an investment into Penny Arcade with no capital gains. Which, well, isn't a smart fiscal move on the part of the "supporters" of this Kickstarter.

Kickstarter supporting this is a pure money grab.

 

[Risible]

They probably can write off the time and money they spend taking care of it, but pretty damn certain that was never their intent in starting it.

If you were there when Child's Play first started it was a pretty small endeavor that grew to like crazy.

They did it because they thought it'd be a cool nice thing to do. I don't think they thought it'd ever become this big thing.

Easy big fellow . I truly was just curious, no ill intent behind the question. I like PA and enjoy Jerry and Mike, even if they can get way too holier-than-thou on occasion. I'm actually very excited for the return of their podcast, used to listen to those religiously.

 

[cuyahoga]

Maybe if they get enough people reporting the project, Kickstarter will reconsider the listing.

 

[JABEE]

has this been posted yet?

http://bapeonion.tumblr.com/post/26923425217/i-hope-penny-arcades-kickstarter-is-an-amazing

It seems people are beginning to figure out that this is a "cash grab."

 

[NervousXtian]

has this been posted yet?

http://bapeonion.tumblr.com/post/26923425217/i-hope-penny-arcades-kickstarter-is-an-amazing

Not sure, but it's stupid.

 

[Clevinger]

Maybe if they get enough people reporting the project, Kickstarter will reconsider the listing.

That's not going to happen. This is going to make them a decent amount of cash, yearly. That's why they fudged their own site's rules to allow it.

Not sure, but it's stupid.

Oh, wow, you sure refuted his argument!

 

[ZenaxPure]

PA straight out saying that this Kickstarter does not affect their operations if it does or does not succeed is such a red flag as to why they are even attempting such a thing.

Except they didn't say that exactly. They said nothing changes if it fails, if it succeeds they will have more free time to do other things and their advertisers will also be able to "make things" instead of constantly trying to sell ad space. Saying nothing changes if this happens is 100% not true.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

I'm against this. I just am.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Don't see how its stupid that this Kickstarter essentially invalidates most of their stipulations for projects all in one fell swoop, but its okay because silver tongued Robert Khoo helped them come to an "agreement".

The real adventure will be whether Penny Arcade returns with cupped hands to Kickstarter next year (although theyre probably gonna get 2 years worth in one go, lets be honest) or if they'd just do it through their own site and a setup there.

Its the shocking vagueness of this whole thing alongside it completely going against the purpose of Kickstarter that makes it so unpalatable. Repackaged as a "Penny Arcade Super Project Pledge" where Tycho and Gabe and co commit to a years worth of new sizeable content (Full Monthly Lookouts, an animation, weekly podcast, etc) and stuff alongside the strip that then had the added special bonus effect of them no longer needing ads would have been a far better way to put this across than just "money please". Six pages of a fucking comic is a drop of piss in the urinal ocean that is Gabe's workday of just playing with an inflateable ball while skulking on a couch all day and drawing a few comic panels.

 

[snorggy]

Not sure, but it's stupid.

Well each to their own, but I think it makes some interesting points.

 

[Clevinger]

Except they didn't say that exactly. They said nothing changes if it fails, if it succeeds they will have more free time to do other things and their advertisers will also be able to "make things" instead of constantly trying to sell ad space. Saying nothing changes if this happens is 100% not true.

I think this line they give smells of bullshit (the "we don't have time to do these other things because we're busy with ads") The comic making duo don't spend all their time on the business end, let alone constantly looking for ads to sell. They have their business partner/employees for that. And if they don't have enough manpower to find and deal with ads for their site, which I doubt in the first place, they can hire someone to help with it. That's what a normal business does.

 

[outunderthestars]

This completely violates the basic premise of Kickstarter, and I am honestly a bit shocked that KS approved this campaign.

 

[mediapulp_wes]

Right. The end user really has nothing to lose in this scenario. Will anybody really be upset if they get rid of the ads? If they don't reach the goal, then the ads stay and nobody gets charged.

Honestly, the worse case scenario is that they reach the initial $250k goal, and nothing else. It would feel like a waste at that point to me. Paying to get rid of one ad is kind of pointless. If I'm paying to get rid of ads, I want them all gone (at least on the homepage).

Personally, I'm very excited that a fully ad-free Penny Arcade means they can publish the comic and news posts inside the RSS feed. Right now they only provide links to the main page, so they get the ads views. But without the ads, I will be able to read the content on the platform of my choice. I'd love to read PA directly on Flipboard or Google Reader.

The point is that Penny Arcade will make their $1,000,000 a year regardless. So how is it "entitled" to ask for direct funding. It's equally "entitled" of them to ask the advertisers for money. People seem to forget that PA is not a hobby. It is a business.

Nailed it for me.

 

[megalowho]

I think this line they give smells of bullshit (the "we don't have time to do these other things because we're busy with ads") The comic making duo don't spend all their time on the business end, let alone constantly looking for ads to sell. They have their business partner/employees for that. And if they don't have enough manpower to find and deal with ads for their site, which I doubt in the first place, they can hire someone to help with it. That's what a normal business does.

Also, who in their right mind wants their marketing/business team doing anything remotely creative? What kind of compelling content can they offer, and are their salaries really justified if what they were hired to do no longer exists?

 

[mrklaw]

Waiting for them to spin it as ironic.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Make fun of Troll Kickstarters by making a Troll Kickstarter?

Yeah, no.

I smell Kurtz all over this.

 

[Interficium]

I think my ad agency should solicit donations. Once we reach 1 milli we'll stop making ads that you'd otherwise have to watch or read.

Completely bizarre move from Penny Arcade. I guess they've been community heroes doing no wrong and being constantly praised for so long they didn't think anyone would stop to question this. No matter how you slice it it's never going to look good for you to say, essentially, "I am rich, but I don't really like the reason I am rich. Please make me rich in another fashion" to the general populace.

 

[iammeiam]

Also, who in their right mind wants their marketing/business team doing anything remotely creative? What kind of compelling content can they offer, and are their salaries really justified if what they were hired to do no longer exists?

This was partially covered earlier:

Jeff Kalles is a big part of PA's marketing department.

He used to work at Nintendo on IPs like Eternal Darkness & Pokemon. He was the producer on our most recent game (On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness 3) and did a great job even though he couldn't devote his full time to it. Yes, I think he could be doing something more productive than trying to round up advertisers.

I still think PA probably had a decent idea here which they have executed in one of the worst manners they possibly could. Getting fan-funds to replace ad funds isn't inherently bad, but using Kickstarter invites a level of scrutiny they totally didn't prepare for.

Also they should probably have ramped up to this by making their normal day-to-day ads more irritating and invasive so that PA-sans-ads was a notable step up from PA with ads. They did too good of a job keeping the advertising from causing general site issues.

 

[mrklaw]

It's about what their web space is worth, moreso than the ad price. It's a result of how popular they are, and the price they can command that they are now shifting the onus onto their users instead of advertisers.

So they don't need the pledges to cover costs, they want it to replace the profit they make from ads? Nice.

penny arcade runs adverts for the simple reason that they are not a fucking charity, even if they run one.

all this is is testing out an alternate revenue stream. if enough people feel that an ad free penny arcade is worth their money, then even the people that DON'T will get an ad free penny arcade.

it doesn't make any logical sense for someone to be mad at them trying to generate the amount of money they make with advertising through this method.

also consider that the less reliant they are on advertising the less pressure is on them not to piss off video game companies that advertise on the site.

A donate button on the website would have done the same thing

I wouldn't pay at all for an advertising-free GAF - why should I? The ads are not intrusive, and oftentimes relevant to me.

If there was a true GAF Gold that offered expanded features, I'd pay. If the site was going to go out of business without money, I'd pay. But I see no benefit to just dropping the ads.

That's the problem with this Penny Arcade Kickstarter -- it's a lot more hassle for them to sell ads than it is for me to view them. I'm paying them money so their lives can be easier, but the benefit to me is negligible at best. The ads they are removing are not being replaced with content. The suggestion that I should pay money to see a blank blue space rather than an ad is pretty ridiculous.

Making $1m a year from ads isn't really a hassle though is it? Seems a pretty good return even if you are hiring a few guys full time to do it.

Remember, by removing the immeasurable time vampire and blight that is advertising sourcing on these talented hard working gentlemen, they will have all the time in the world to bring new and exciting content to your eyes in the form of a few full size comic pages a year of offshoot properties and not spend endless amounts of time on petty twitter wars or otherwise.

Presumably the editorial staff aren't doing any ad sourcing, that would be stupid, and they are bringing in enough money for dedicate ad staff. So removing ads doesn't help them improve the site because the editorial staff aren't doing anything different.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

This has to be the most stupid thing I've seen on the internet this week.

Given that this is PA, of course, I am not surprised.

 

[megalowho]

This was partially covered earlier:

I did see that comment, I appreciate they respect his pedigree but it's still completely vague and doesn't make a lot of sense when I think about what people go to Penny Arcade for. If fans are going to pay his and his team's salaries while removing major responsibilities, they should know what they're getting.

I should probably rescind marketers from my earlier statement and replace it with ad sales. I've worked with creative marketing people before. I've also wanted them nowhere near the product being offered, but that may not be the case at PA.

 

[Riggs]

Thought this was a joke at first.

 

[HamPster PamPster]

Saving my money for the Brawl in the Family kickstarter