TheChewyWaffles
Member
I like the PA comics, but this feels douchey to me...
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Penny Arcade Kickstarter
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
outunderthestars
Banned
This. A multimillion dollar website wants your money: $300 and they will retweet a random tweet from you.
A small company is trying to launch a freaking video game console: $300 gets you three consoles.
PA just comes across as greedy and sleazy through this process. Its enough to make me no longer want to visit their site.
You know some sucker will pay that much just to be retweeted and that's more sad than funny.
I'd rather kickstart Castle Vidcons into having a regular update schedule, TBH.
A year of Penny Arcade.
It's very easy to fall into a trap of being so used to getting something for free that you start taking it for granted; then when the creator starts to ask for money for it it - from your standpoint - seems entirely unreasonable for them to do so.
Uh...no. Visiting the site is how you support it. You're spending your time and that in then leads to site hits, which leads to advertiser interest, which leads to ad revenue. A fair bit for them. Don't try to paint these people of all things as selfless entrepreneurs.
CrunchinJelly
formerly cjelly
And the Kickstarter is predicated on the idea that there are people who would prefer not to support the site that way. There's nothing wrong with that.
(As an aside: I do have one problem with the Kickstarter, though, and that's that I don't like that the official goal is something of a half-measure. I can't help but feel it really ought to be all-or-nothing)
Utterly shameless. I'm surprised Kickstarter even allowed this project, as it performatively undermines their business foundation.
And how do people respect and follow these PA guys? They always misunderstand and -represent controversial issues, they take the sides they have the most business interest in, they always have an agenda beneath their discussion points, and they write the most pseudo-intellectual bullshit that even a college grad would dismiss as over-excessive platitudes appealing to those who think opaque writing is the mark of a genius.
And how do people respect and follow these PA guys? They always misunderstand and -represent controversial issues, they take the sides they have the most business interest in, they always have an agenda beneath their discussion points, and they write the most pseudo-intellectual bullshit that even a college grad would dismiss as over-excessive platitudes appealing to those who think opaque writing is the mark of a genius.
old manatee
Banned
Kickstarter should be for projects that people can't afford to fund any other way. The penny arcade guys have an expo, games, merch, all kinds of stuff. Let some actually broke people have a chance.
Have always wondered why they are so loved myself. Oh well some things are not meant to be understood.
The project goal is $250,000 to remove the leaderboard advertisement from Penny Arcade. A year of Penny Arcade is going to be produced whether this project succeeds or fails. This is how they describe it on Kickstarter.
I don't have an issue with what people want to spend their money on but it's disappointing and sets a bad precedent since the presence on Kickstarter looks to be allowed purely for monetary reasons on both sides.
ShironRedshift
Member
Yes, but that's the thing though--the content will only be changed if they reach stretch goals, not the actual goal itself. So if they only meet the goal and don't reach the stretch goals, no new content will be created. As I understand it, the actual goal of a Kickstarter project itself has to result in new content being created (since they'll receive the money as long as they meet the main goal), which doesn't seem to be the case here. If they had simply made one of their stretch goals the actual starting point to begin with, there wouldn't be a problem, but as is, with the actual main goal not really resulting in any new content, it would seem to go against Kickstarter's guidelines:
http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines?ref=footer
That doesn't change the fact that this Kickstarter is to fund a year of Penny Arcade, though.
Edit: Well, strictly speaking, it's "to fund a year of Penny Arcade without a leaderboard advertisement". That's still a defined project.
GhostWriter24
Member
Why did Gabe feel the need to damage control for 6+ hours on Twitter this morning?
I understand his argument but perhaps he could have just let things, oh I don't know, simmer down for a bit and not discuss it at all?
I understand his argument but perhaps he could have just let things, oh I don't know, simmer down for a bit and not discuss it at all?
Alex
Member
They shouldn't, people are free to spend their money on whatever they see fit. Doesn't mean it isn't open to criticism, especially with their open critique on frivolous and silly Kickstarters in the past.
I'm not really for or against Penny Arcade, I like their work from time to time, I've donated to Childs Play before, fandom conventions don't interest me but PAX seems like a nice show, but this is still all kind of sketchy and easily the most dippy Kickstarter concept I've seen yet.
Because it is Gabe, and no matter the cause the man has an impossible time shutting his mouth, this is hardly the first time, for good or ill.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
If he had remained silent, someone surely would have faulted him for that as well.
RockTurtle
Member
Sorry, they aren't seeing a cent from after the Mass Effect 3/FGC fiasco.
plagiarize
Banned
it's fine for you to feel that way, but that isn't what Kickstarter is for. Kickstarter is for crowdfunding projects. it's not for crowdfunding projects that couldn't be funded any other way.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Penny Arcade is a small company too. A successful company, sure, but they're still only a handful of people.
When the small company actually launches their video game console and gives people 3 for $300, then you can compare them to other kickstarters. Right now, I'm seeing a company that has a reputation for actually doing things (Penny Arcade) and a company that makes grand promises that I seriously doubt they can pull off (the indie console company).
And the "pay us a few hundred dollars and we'll retweet something from you" isn't for your average fan. I'd say it's primarily for indie teams that are starting up - paying a few hundred dollars for someone famous in the industry to retweet your "Hey, Zombie Civilization DX2014 is finally done. You can buy it from this link" tweet could be very well worth the money for a brand new developer.
Also (and this isn't directed at the previous quoter), could we knock off with making fun of the super-expensive meet us reward tiers? LOTS of other kickstarters do the exact same thing and nobody has a problem with them. Both the Wasteland & Double Fine Adventure kickstarters had a "Pay us $10k and you can hang out with us" reward tier and nobody yelled at them. This is just copying other kickstarters.
Random aside before I go to bed: I still wouldn't be *too* surprised if this turned out to be a trap for Paul Cristoforo to wander into
K that would be kind of awesome. But it's to good to be true.
plagiarize
Banned
well, yeah. but i don't see why a kickstarter is a bad way of achieving what they are trying to achieve. donations are another way of generating revenue. like advertising and getting people to fund them with kickstarter. they're just revenue streams. so why flip out about one of those and not the others?
Dualhammers
Neo Member
This pretty much sums up the problem with this entire drama. If you don't like what they are trying to do, don't support them, but don't pretend they are anything but emulators of previously successful models.
But it's not a project, it's a change the way we're funding our day-to-day operations.
A project would be if Penny-Arcade said they wanted to do a Lookouts comic book. They could delineate costs, explain how much it would take to get a certain number of copies made, offer behind the scenes content or signed copies or whatever as reward tiers, and in the end they'd have a book ready to sell. It has a discreet beginning and end, and an actual product as a result.
Instead, they're asking if people can donate their hard earned cash because they're sick of dealing with finding or maintaining ad revenue (Or the value of ad revenue is dropping to a level less than they'd like, or whatever. This didn't come out of the blue, and I'm certain they have reasons for wanting to get rid of ads they're not saying). Having an enumerated list of crap they can stop doing once they get the level of funding they're hoping to achieve doesn't make it a project.
SketchTheArtist
Member
I don't get how people are angry or even against this.
What do you care? If you don't like PA, then don't fund it. If you like PA but are okay with the ads, don't fund it. If you want PA to create new content, fund what you want.
It's like they fuckin' executed a baby on a live-stream or something reading some of you guys....
What do you care? If you don't like PA, then don't fund it. If you like PA but are okay with the ads, don't fund it. If you want PA to create new content, fund what you want.
It's like they fuckin' executed a baby on a live-stream or something reading some of you guys....
Neodiablo22
Member
What I find weird is that it seems that most of the time they are advertising their own stuff on the front page. Pay us so that we don't put our own ads on the side bar. Instead, we will just have that appear on our rotating items list.
Candeldandel
Member
I am right there with you. I really don't know what else to say, honestly... I read nearly every post in this thread, and I'm quite confused about why there is just so much hate :\
I do like Penny Arcade, but this rubs me the wrong way. Maybe it's the hidden stretchgoals or the weirdly self-absorbed prize tiers, or maybe it's the simple fact that the primary goal is so lame. Giving them $250k to remove one ad from penny-arcade.com is pretty dumb. I like the general idea of people like Penny Arcade being supported directly by their fans instead of relying on advertisements, but this implementation isn't one I can get behind.
Also, it does seem pretty contrary to the general spirit of Kickstarter, which is people making stuff that wouldn't otherwise get made. The only "new thing" on offer here is a small original comic that only gets made at over 2x the project's nominal asking price. It really does look like Kickstarter approved this in the first place because it's easy money for themselves.
Also, it does seem pretty contrary to the general spirit of Kickstarter, which is people making stuff that wouldn't otherwise get made. The only "new thing" on offer here is a small original comic that only gets made at over 2x the project's nominal asking price. It really does look like Kickstarter approved this in the first place because it's easy money for themselves.
What's with the negativity? This sounds like the very definition of a win-win scenario. The PA guys get to work for the fans instead of being beholden to advertisers, fans with money get the option to directly support something they enjoy, Kickstarter gets more money and more attention, and I get PA without ads for free, maybe even the podcast back. Nobody gets hurt, except the advertisers. Everybody else wins, especially me.
Subscriptions suck because you have to pay for them, this is awesome because you don't.
Subscriptions suck because you have to pay for them, this is awesome because you don't.
I think there are plenty of legitimate concerns in this thread regarding intent, execution and long term viability. It's a financial experiment and gaming news story that's worth discussing even if you're not personally involved. Sure there's hyperbole, but there's always hyperbole on GAF.
This is the biggest misuse of Kickstarter I've ever seen. I've lodged a complaint but I doubt they'll do anything about it, the cut Kickstarter receives is just too much motivation for them to let it slide. I don't see how removing ads from a pre-existing website counts as a project under Kickstarter rules. They're basically just fundraising to pay the wages of their ad team.
My personal list of why I find this repugnant:
- First, their project is likely in violation of Kickster's policies that say the service isn't to just fund day-to-day operating costs.
- Even if it isn't, it's generally in poor taste. Kickstarter is designed to jumpstart businesses with an initial round of crowdsourced funding, or pay for a specific project through to completion that otherwise wouldn't happen. This is an attempt to take a successful business and crowdfund it, presumably because ad revenues are dropping or finding people willing to pay $250,000 a year for a banner ad is hard.
- Their reasoning for this move is, at best, dumb ("Give us a million dollars so we can get rid of all those nasty ads for you!") and at worst not giving us the whole story. You don't move away from a consistent, stable $1,000,000 in ad revenue for crowdsourced funding (i.e., begging people on the internet) if there aren't some problems somewhere.
- Their reward tiers are vastly overpriced. $15 for a post card. $100 for two digital copies of their old books, which is far more than the $20 they'd cost at retail with physical copies. $150 for a T-shirt with a snarky catchphrase on it.
- Worse, their reward tiers paint the two as narcissistic egotists who vastly overvalue their own celebrity. For $500 you can buy a single retweet? For $300 they'll follow and ignore you on Twitter? For $5,000 you can arrange to come meet them at your expense? So many of these rewards circle around you getting to interact with these two divine beings (assuming you pay all travel and accommodation expenses, of course) that you wonder how they ever have time to complete their Good Works.
- The tiers are insanely high given the awful rewards they're giving out. They're really hoping they can retweet and postcard their way to $1m for a product they admit won't suffer if you don't part with your money regardless?
The result is that the entire affair is a self-centered and arguably manipulative endeavor that misses the point of Kickstarter. At best it's an attempt to change business models (against Kickstarter policy) to cover general operating costs without explaining to people why this shift in funding is necessary ("ads r dumb" doesn't cut it). At worst it's an outright cashgrab.
outunderthestars
Banned
Wow are you my thoughts? Seriously exactly how I feel. There is more to it, and the rewards are insulting to be honest. Not sure who these guys think they are.
I do donate to childs play like I said earlier and I love that cause. Other then that, not a fan of these folks at all.
Amen to that. I can't really believe anyone would use NPR as a comparison.
Very well put. I don't find it repulsive like you say, just sketchy and objectionable. I guess the system leaves it up to their core fans to decide if they see it that way, so probably not. The worst thing imo is how this makes the kickstarter guys look, at least in my eyes. I've pledged to 5 projects now, and they've had their heart in the right place with their site overall, but now I just don't think this is an attitude worth rewarding.
plagiarize
Banned
they never paint it as necessary though. they don't say 'ads are dumb'. they acknowledge that some people feel very strongly about adverts (go look at any thread on GAF about the 360 dashboard to see this). rewards are just that, little bonus extras. you do not have to offer them to do a kickstarter. what you set them (if you set them) is entirely up to you. it's an incentive. most people aren't going to be paying $300 to get Gabe to follow them on twitter, rather, they'll be pledging $300 + dollars to a cause they support and choosing that as their reward.
Kickstarter are the only authority that decides how to interpret their terms and conditions. if Penny Arcade cleared this with them, it's an appropriate Kickstarter. no room for debate there. you can't point to the terms and conditions Kickstarter wrote as some kind of hard written in stone authority, but throw out a specific interpretation of those same rules by the very people that wrote them.
Kickstarter are the sole authority on what is and isn't allowed on their service. they have allowed this. you need to move past that specific element.
do you know what Kickstarter is? it's a money making endeavour which is somewhat more altruistic and has somewhat more noble secondary goals than most money making endeavours. most Kickstarter projects are for profit.
i'm not giving this Kickstarter a single dollar, but i see no single reason why Penny Arcade shouldn't be allowed to at least attempt to be crowdfunded for a year.
edit: changed crowdsourced to crowdfunded. brain fart.
Agree with lots of that. Also, making the goal $250,000 instead of the $1,000,000 it would actually take to remove ads from the site for a year strikes me as disingenuous. Is removing one ad really the creative goal of this project, or to be free from all advertiser pressure/responsibility? Seems like they are setting an artificially low bar in order to ensure they get some money out of this, ad free site or not.
Edit: They've made multiple remarks on Twitter explicitly stating the goal is to pay for a year of regularly scheduled comics with no ads, plus other projects. Someone should let them know they only asked for 1/4 of what it would take to do that.
I never said they shouldn't be allowed to attempt it, I simply reserve the right to think it's scummy of them doing so.
I also think that Kickstarter is setting a dangerous precedent for "fund my lifestyle/company" style Kickstarters if they don't take it down. I'm not sure why the PA folk aren't looking at funding companies more friendly to a catch-all approach to things, like Indie Go-Go. Their terms state:
Compare that to Kickstarter's guidelines which clearly state:
Between the two sites it's clear which one is more appropriate for their little 'experiment' in crowdfunding.
Edit: And we're not sure that Kickstarter are approving of this. It took a few days for Tentacle Bento to be de-listed too.