They were 18th entering this year but that number was with Ichiro's $18 million salary which is gone now. I imagine in the Griffey days they were probably a lot higher though.
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The Ten Years Decline of Sony
- Thread starter Canis lupus
- Start date
They were 18th entering this year but that number was with Ichiro's $18 million salary which is gone now. I imagine in the Griffey days they were probably a lot higher though.
Captain Tuttle
Member
Too many silos in Sony, the walls need to come down.
I don't think Kaz is the guy to do it though.
I don't think Kaz is the guy to do it though.
SictorVullivan
Member
Even if Sony were to get to the point where it was getting close to ceasing as a company, it would also be able to downsize and focus on one specific key area (like Nintendo does with gaming for instance).
I don't think there's any need to worry, Sony will be around for a long time yet.
I don't think there's any need to worry, Sony will be around for a long time yet.
Do you think that is wise given the reports on these factories that assemble some of these products? I'm pretty sure the people in the Sony assembly line wouldn't be treated anywhere near as badly as what we hear about other factories in Asia.
longdi
Banned
they just need a hit product...maybe a good xperia phone with google.
their phablets are on the weak side but they dont do the sony premium pricing now, so can say things are changing.
if only they got rid of stringer 3 years ago...or even appoint ken as chairman and kaz as sce head straight away, things may be different. stringer strikes me as someone cold and with no pride for the SONY brand.
i think they also need to shut down their movie division. they are wasting money on shitty films.
sell spiderman back to marvel too!
Canis lupus
Member
You still pay a premium price on their tvs and laptops.
I don't mind it though, their products are generally of very high quality that justifies the price.Things haven't changed. Not every product has had a premium price attached to it; the things you keep referencing aren't any different from previous years.
thehypocrite
Member
Did you read the article you linked? It actually seems to be 85% accurate, not trying to be an apologist, but I thought the article for this topic was an actual attemp at serious gaming journalism.
I have no idea of who Emily Rogers is, but the article you linked and the one in this topic don't seem to warrant the response you posted above.
They are the second most profitable studio in the US right now (with a high chance of being the first by the end of the year), and probably at one of the first places worldwide as well. Why close them down?
longdi
Banned
You still pay a premium price on their tvs and laptops.
if you are comparing to acer maybe...but go higher up, sony laptops pack a price/performance punch this year.
also same with their 2012 hdtv range, i am surprised to see many good reviews after their muted ces showings and reviewers often add the remarks that the prices are also good!
The article looks at the entire Sony corporation, but I think gaffers are more interested in the gaming side only. The financial data is publicly available online here.
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/er.html
I picked out the operating incomes for the past 10 years, in millions of US dollars.
Note that Sony used to specify the operating income for the game business separately, but in the last few years they've rolled it into the "consumer products" division. So the years with asterisks next to them don't accurately represent the game business. I included them anyway. Maybe someone will find better numbers, I'm too lazy to look. Oh, and FY3/2002 means fiscal year ending March 31, 2002.
Edit: Well in the Q1 2012 results, Sony reported the game business separately. In the presentation slides it lists FY3/2012 operating income as 29.3 billion yen or 375 million USD. So there's that.
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/er.html
I picked out the operating incomes for the past 10 years, in millions of US dollars.
Code:
FY3/2002 623
FY3/2003 939
FY3/2004 650
FY3/2005 404
FY3/2006 75
FY3/2007 (1,969)
FY3/2008 (1,245)
FY3/2009 (597)
FY3/2010* (500)
FY3/2011* 35
FY3/2012 375Note that Sony used to specify the operating income for the game business separately, but in the last few years they've rolled it into the "consumer products" division. So the years with asterisks next to them don't accurately represent the game business. I included them anyway. Maybe someone will find better numbers, I'm too lazy to look. Oh, and FY3/2002 means fiscal year ending March 31, 2002.
Edit: Well in the Q1 2012 results, Sony reported the game business separately. In the presentation slides it lists FY3/2012 operating income as 29.3 billion yen or 375 million USD. So there's that.
thehypocrite
Member
Sony right now is on track to get out of their funk. However they need to battle the perception that they are floundering by the poorly informed population.
Their imaging services are flourishing.
Their Mobile Division is beating expectations.
Their prices are competitive.
Financial services are still making money.
These are good steps in the right direction, they just need to sustain them.
Their imaging services are flourishing.
Their Mobile Division is beating expectations.
Their prices are competitive.
Financial services are still making money.
These are good steps in the right direction, they just need to sustain them.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Those steep drops over the last year are what's scary.
If a company's treated you well over the years.
If a company's had IP or devs you like over the years.
If IP or devs you like would probably not fare as well at other companies.
If a company's passing would weaken segments of the industry you enjoy.
If a company's passing would justify a competing company/segment you dislike gaining ground.
Etc.
If a company's treated you well over the years.
If a company's had IP or devs you like over the years.
If IP or devs you like would probably not fare as well at other companies.
If a company's passing would weaken segments of the industry you enjoy.
If a company's passing would justify a competing company/segment you dislike gaining ground.
Etc.
Polishin8r
Member
Baconsammy
Banned
For the sake of their employees and families, I hope they recover, but as a consumer that used to buy a lot of Sony products, they've lost me. I sold my Vita last week and now own zero Sony products. Not some irrational hatred of the company. Just found alternatives that I like much more than theirs, and it initially stemmed from their stupidly high prices compared to the competition (PS3, TVs and cameras) years ago.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Yep. As their latest financial report shows, their losses are much less then previous years. Honestly i was impressed that Sony only lost $200-300 million last quarter.
Iacobellis
Junior Member
Yes. IMO, the decline really started at around 2005 or 2006.
Indeed. I love my NEX camera, and will likely buy one of the upcoming new models and lenses (apparently announcements incoming 9/12) in the coming year. Really innovative stuff.
GrandHarrier
Member
Interesting article. I'm not a fan of Sony's but it would be unfortunate if they failed. The data would seem to suggest that a recovery is a troubled road at best. How does this affect the PS4? Is this essentially confirmation that it's going to be a much more modest machine, or are they going to ask that I get 3 jobs to pay for this one?
Baconsammy
Banned
The height of Sony was 2002. Declines start from the top.
Canis lupus
Member
They did a master move by buying the Cell plant from Toshiba.
I think the Iphone 4S and Galaxy S3 also use their cameras. I think I've read that the HTC One X uses a screen from Sony (don't know about the camera tho)
Iacobellis
Junior Member
Sony was still a champ in 2003, 2004, etc. Remember all the buzz surrounding the PSP launch and the celebrities Sony had to endorse it? The Vita never saw that treatment.
Hydrogen Bluebird
Member
Man, I hope Sony becomes rich and powerful like they were in the early 2000s (PS1/PS2) years. I really love the Playstation brand/family of devices/exclusive games.
CadetMahoney
Member
The good news is that gaming division is one of the few divisions making a profit, their gaming division deficit many ppl claim is because of system launch of the Vita and R&D PS4. But apart from that it's making a profit. Not that it is going to make back the losses they took on the PS3 anytime soon however.
If there was no love there would be no laughs.
Baconsammy
Banned
2003 and 2004 weren't their height. Sony's far more than a gaming company. The decline of other products was in full effect at that time. If you're measuring the fall of Sony gaming, it definitely wouldn't be 2002.
Syphon Filter
Member
he means gaming, thia is the gaming side of gaf.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
Sony has themselves to blame for that, not the iPod. Sony's Music division lived in deadly fear of MP3 so the music division refused to let the electronics division support the format and instead Sony created their own shitty digital music format that no one supported.
This is well known and an instance of one division hurting another or... too many cooks ruin the pot.
If only the new spidey could appear in the next Avengers. If only...
Baconsammy
Banned
And it's an article about Sony. Not Sony gaming. Saying their decline couldnt have started in 2002 simply because gaming didn't start to fail until 2005/2006 is blindly ignoring facts presented in the linked article.
semiconscious
Member
& therein lies the tricky part of dealing with the consumer marketplace: whether something's successful or not as often as not has nothing to do with whether something's shitty or not
...It sounds like Sony needs to get their engineers in line for the good of the company. If they won't cooperate and just continue to serve their own egos then either fire them or send them down to the mail room until they learn a little humility.
Doesn't sound like that is going to happen though based on their history.
Doesn't sound like that is going to happen though based on their history.
Baconsammy
Banned
& therein lies the tricky part of dealing with the consumer marketplace: whether something's successful or not as often as not has nothing to do with whether something's shitty or not
Truth. Pop music is complete shit, but it makes money.
Dreams-Visions
Member
quite a thorough article.
As for the general point, I think that's been beaten to death, revived and beaten to death again. The question that remains is whether or not their continuing leadership shuffling can fix what has gone and continues to go wrong as far as organizational structure goes. I don't know if it can anymore.
As for the general point, I think that's been beaten to death, revived and beaten to death again. The question that remains is whether or not their continuing leadership shuffling can fix what has gone and continues to go wrong as far as organizational structure goes. I don't know if it can anymore.
If things keep on declining, I could easily see Sony continuing as a camera company. Their digital imaging division is innovative and profitable, and their control of the digital sensor market is akin to Kodak film in its heyday.
They'll be producing cameras long after Playstation and Vaio and Bravia are distant memories.
Gamble
Member
ditto
Woo-Fu
Banned
The decline started way before that. This isn't about Sony the videogame console company, this is about Sony Everything.
Their consumer electronics divisions have been struggling for a long time simply because they've failed to acknowledge that the market has changed. They completely missed the boat when it comes to digital audio players. Walkman has been replaced by ipod. They took forever to move Bravia into LCD/Plasma/Widescreen, losing almost all of the brand recognition they once held in the TV market.
During all of this the way people shop for products has changed. Fire up a browser, read 10 reviews, place an order. Much different than walking into a department store, seeing a samsung, hitachi, and sony right next to each other and going with the Sony because of brand recognition. The "premium" consumer electronics market is deader than a doornail, you're only as good as your latest model/review.
The divisions of Sony that stuck to "business as usual" during these changes are the ones that have been and will continue to struggle.
Inventory, factories and warehouses are included as assets. Software companies lack those, and Apple has outsourced them.
Iacobellis
Junior Member
Apple products are generally behind their Android and Microsoft counterparts, yet, people still buy them. I am an Apple user myself, but it took years for them to add simple features such as wallpapers and multitasking to their iOS devices.
LiveFromKyoto
Member
Not sure why people think somebody else will fill Sony's spot if the fall out of the game.Having to compete head to head with Microsoft who bled millions and millions just to get a seat at the table probably doesn't look like an effective investment to most companies.
The day of the console may be fading into the sunset as home computer based gaming becomes more accessible and phones become more powerful. The realities of game development mean multiplatform releases are a necessity, leading to the homogenization of platforms. The PS3 & 360 were largely redundant, the prime system-based differentiator for most people being whether you wanted to pay for the online service or not.
Of course, then there's the issue of having to somehow lock up home-turf IPs that can compete against Mario & Halo.
I doubt anybody is looking at the console business as a major growth opportunity right now.
The day of the console may be fading into the sunset as home computer based gaming becomes more accessible and phones become more powerful. The realities of game development mean multiplatform releases are a necessity, leading to the homogenization of platforms. The PS3 & 360 were largely redundant, the prime system-based differentiator for most people being whether you wanted to pay for the online service or not.
Of course, then there's the issue of having to somehow lock up home-turf IPs that can compete against Mario & Halo.
I doubt anybody is looking at the console business as a major growth opportunity right now.
PastorOfMuppets
Banned
There is a je ne sais quoi quality with Apple products that have existed since the turn of the century (I love that I'm able to use that phrase by the way). The first batch of iPODs had less features than other MP3 players at the time yet ultimately the iPOD prevailed.
LiveFromKyoto
Member
That's a pretty loaded statement, considering how much Android has outright lifted from iOS, and considering Microsoft's history of following Apple with their Windows UI.
No one will fill Sony's gaming spot because it's a bad spot.
Would I rather sell 20mm copies of a simple and cheap game to make or sell 5mm (at best) on a pricy title. Should I want to subsidize hardware? Should I not want to monetize online services, especially if I'm subsidizing hardware?
Face it guys, you might like getting stuff for free, but it's not a great business model. Expect any other competitor like Apple or Samsung to go the Microsoft route and present a box that is a content portal including games but not focused on them.
Would I rather sell 20mm copies of a simple and cheap game to make or sell 5mm (at best) on a pricy title. Should I want to subsidize hardware? Should I not want to monetize online services, especially if I'm subsidizing hardware?
Face it guys, you might like getting stuff for free, but it's not a great business model. Expect any other competitor like Apple or Samsung to go the Microsoft route and present a box that is a content portal including games but not focused on them.
CadetMahoney
Member
ppl seem to think all those years MS had to invest in the industry can be caught up just be entering the market. These things take years. I would like to see Apple and Samsung get a foot in the door and move on from there. Remember with the Dreamcast MS had some hand in the OS or something.
Kenshin001
Member
From a gaming perspective I don't think SCE are doing very well either.
There doesn't seem to be any co-operation or communication between SCEJ, SCEA and SCEE, they just seem to all do their own thing. Sony published PSN and disc games come out months apart across regions or not at all. No co-ordinated global campaigns.
They have no co-ordinated effort when it comes to attracting indies to their systems and then they have PSN, Minis and PSMobile games which work on some Sony platforms but not others. Must be confusing for developers and customers.
Having two handhelds on the market just seems dumb to me as devs will make games for one or the other and it splits Sony's focus/marketing efforts when they should just be focussing on one ie. Vita.
They have all these great studios but they don't seem to work together or share tech/assets like they should eg. closing down Liverpool instead of them working with Polyphony to make a proper GT. Core franchises like GT and Killzone they should be using the best talent and resources to make exceptional games and then marketing the hell out of them.
There doesn't seem to be any co-operation or communication between SCEJ, SCEA and SCEE, they just seem to all do their own thing. Sony published PSN and disc games come out months apart across regions or not at all. No co-ordinated global campaigns.
They have no co-ordinated effort when it comes to attracting indies to their systems and then they have PSN, Minis and PSMobile games which work on some Sony platforms but not others. Must be confusing for developers and customers.
Having two handhelds on the market just seems dumb to me as devs will make games for one or the other and it splits Sony's focus/marketing efforts when they should just be focussing on one ie. Vita.
They have all these great studios but they don't seem to work together or share tech/assets like they should eg. closing down Liverpool instead of them working with Polyphony to make a proper GT. Core franchises like GT and Killzone they should be using the best talent and resources to make exceptional games and then marketing the hell out of them.
Do you mean just in the console space? Yes, that's unlikely. Virtually anyone can assail Microsoft from other angles, though. If your loyalty is specifically to the concept of a "home console" with a game pad that looks like a dual shock, then yes, no new competitors are likely to arise.
Yes, and who knows what else in the future. I don't think home consoles are likely to suffer a fatal end any time soon, but I think we're seeing a gradual decline from prominence.
Apple already has their foot very firmly in the door. Do you mean in the console space specifically? No one is going to invest in consoles at this point.
Metalmurphy
Member
Actually they do share alot of stuff between studios, just not with the Japanese studios, but even that is changing now.