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Pinnacle/Senkaku/Diaoyu Showdown: Japan to Buy Islands, China Sends Patrol Ships

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N

numble

Member
tino said:
Over a tiny island and the surrounding 200 miles of fish? Japanese are not that stupid.
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It could just be a confined conflict like the skirmishes with Vietnam and the Philippines in the South China Sea. Something smaller scale than the Falklands War, but similar, which only occurred around the island.
 
T

tino

Banned
numble said:
It could just be a confined conflict like the skirmishes with Vietnam and the Philippines in the South China Sea. Something smaller scale than the Falklands War, but similar, which only occurred around the island.
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If its just China and Japan navy having a baseball coach/umpire shouting match without the involvement of US, I am all for it.
 
T

tino

Banned
Great view


628x471.jpg
 
GTP_Daverytimes

GTP_Daverytimes

Member
tino said:
Over a tiny island and the surrounding 200 miles of fish? Japanese are not that stupid.
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Well if the LDP elects one of their nutjobs (most of whom want to build up an infrastructure on the island) China will react, and if China reacts the LDP leaders will react. They are definitely not taking shit from China and when they cease power tensions will boil over. Noda has so far been very calm but i don't think the guys who are lining up behind him are as calm as he has been.
 
N

numble

Member
Nanjing: Protest
UT8dD.jpg


Xi'an: Protest, including owners of expensive cars
Cl4MQ.jpg

RNveQ.jpg


Chongqing: Protest
5XrBL.jpg


Shanghai: Protest
0mGH8.jpg


Changsha: Another Japanese brand police car smashed, also a Japanese store shut down over protests
6wfmc.jpg

QnJxv.jpg

7nG2r.jpg


Qingdao: Japanese store smashed
Kt1qj.jpg


Beijing: Protest at Japanese industry
it3Tk.jpg


Beijing: Japanese restaurants hang Chinese flags
wO4D0.jpg
 
E

EVOL 100%

Member
ThoseDeafMutes said:
Some Koreans hate Japan. More in the North than the South. But common enemies make strange bedfellows.
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I know, living in Korea myself. It's just that the rage from China is so fucking over the top lol.

It makes the reactions from Korea regarding the Liancourt Rocks look pedestrian.
 
T

ThoseDeafMutes

Member
EVOL 100% said:
I know, living in Korea myself. It's just that the rage from China is so fucking over the top lol.

It makes the reactions from Korea regarding the Liancourt Rocks look pedestrian.
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I imagine that a lot of it has to do with the perception that China is destined to be the world's top dog, a star on the rise. For the past couple of decades, there's been this whole attitude of "we may be playing second fiddle now, but JUST YOU WAIT!" When you think you're invincible, you tend to talk a lot of shit, and get very territorial.
 
G

genjiZERO

Member
IMO the Chinese are reacting like the Argentinians react to the Falklands. Although, from what I can tell the Taiwanese might have a claim. Although if it's true that the islands were uninhabited, and never claimed by any government until the Japanese got there - they're clearly Japanese.
 
T

tino

Banned
genjiZERO said:
IMO the Chinese are reacting like the Argentinians react to the Falklands. Although, from what I can tell the Taiwanese might have a claim. Although if it's true that the islands were uninhabited, and never claimed by any government until the Japanese got there - they're clearly Japanese.
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There are plenty of evidences that show Japan doesn't have a solid claim.

But this event escalated due to a few reasons.

* The need to diverse internal conflict in China
* The need to declare the Chinese claim (really Taiwan should have been the one who take the lead but they kind of pussy out) and attack Japanese ultra nationalist
* The start of Yuan-Yen direct exchange which will no doubt undermind the power of US dollar in the far east economic zone. IMO this is the main trigger of the escalation.
 
G

genjiZERO

Member
Antiwhippy said:
Something something nanking.

Sino-japanese relations have never been good.
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Bad Chinese Japanese relations go back well before WW2 (or even colonialism). For example, Japanese pirates (who actually may have been Chinese pirates based in Japan) were a consistent foreign policy issue between the two countries.

tino said:
There are plenty of evidences that show Japan doesn't have a solid claim.

But this event escalated due to a few reasons.

* The need to diverse internal conflict in China
* The need to declare the Chinese claim (really Taiwan should have been the one who take the lead but they kind of pussy out) and attack Japanese ultra nationalist
* The start of Yuan-Yen direct exchange which will no doubt undermind the power of US dollar in the far east economic zone. IMO this is the main trigger of the escalation.
Click to expand...

Yeah, they may not. It just seems to me (from what little I know about it) that China has no claim. Taiwan might have a claim that it had suzerainty over the islands prior to Japanese conquest of Taiwanese islands, but I don't think the contemporary Communist government of China can make the same claim. I mean their claim over Taiwan isn't exactly legitimate, and if they can't legitimately claim Taiwan then they can't legitimately claim islands which only may be Taiwanese either.

I find these land disputes fascinating. So I'm open to getting the historical claims right. So educate away if you have some nuance that would help!
 
L

Lucis

Member
6865a156gw1dwwkn6hk9cj.jpg


Mine explosion - Sigh
Construction Defects - Bear it
Red Cross (China) Embezzlement - Be reasonable
Medical incident - Understanding
City Employee violence - Just looking
Forced Government land take over - It's the norm
Food poison/fake food - Acceptable
Fake / Bad quality products - It's ok
REALLY BAD corruption - Calm
Brain washing eduction - Numb
A FUCKING ISLAND YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHERE IT IS? - IT"S FUCKING RIOT TIME YO

yep, that pretty much sums up a large portion of young chinese now days
 
T

tino

Banned
genjiZERO said:
Bad Chinese Japanese relations go back well before WW2 (or even colonialism). For example, Japanese pirates (who actually may have been Chinese pirates based in Japan) were a consistent foreign policy issue between the two countries.



Yeah, they may not. It just seems to me (from what little I know about it) that China has no claim. Taiwan might have a claim that it had suzerainty over the islands prior to Japanese conquest of Taiwanese islands, but I don't think the contemporary Communist government of China can make the same claim. I mean their claim over Taiwan isn't exactly legitimate, and if they can't legitimately claim Taiwan then they can't legitimately claim islands which only may be Taiwanese either.

I find these land disputes fascinating. So I'm open to getting the historical claims right. So educate away if you have some nuance that would help!
Click to expand...


* Both PRoC and RoC government agree Taiwan is part of China. What the Taiwanese government dispute is the legitimacy of the Chinese governemnt

* Oceanic territory dispute is basically wild west. Whoever has the bigger stick wins dispute. Only weak ass countries like Singapore and Malaysia bring the dispute to "International courts"

* China has dispute on virtually every country it share border with. Only this one with Japan is being brought up. Why? Because Japan is a very effective card the Communist government use to rally up the patriotism and control the stabilize the country; this goes to the right wing extremist in Japan. The Major of Tokyo try to played the Diaoyu Island card to pave the way for his son's political career

I could go on.
 
T

tino

Banned
I hang out on the Chinese photography forum. So its very funny to see the bickering between the people who want to boycott Japanese goods and the people who call them hypocrites. As you know its impossible to not buy Japanese if you need a camera, unless of course you are super rich and can afford German.

The rationals from both sides and from sarcastic majority are very funny.


Antiwhippy said:
Hey, sorry that singapore only has 5 million in population. :p
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Well it was smart for Singapore to bring it to the Int. court but it was very dumb for Malaysia to not able to predict the verdict before going in. King of like the Samsung Apple trail.
 
N

numble

Member
genjiZERO said:
Yeah, they may not. It just seems to me (from what little I know about it) that China has no claim. Taiwan might have a claim that it had suzerainty over the islands prior to Japanese conquest of Taiwanese islands, but I don't think the contemporary Communist government of China can make the same claim. I mean their claim over Taiwan isn't exactly legitimate, and if they can't legitimately claim Taiwan then they can't legitimately claim islands which only may be Taiwanese either.

I find these land disputes fascinating. So I'm open to getting the historical claims right. So educate away if you have some nuance that would help!
Click to expand...
Anyone who has diplomatic relations with the PRC agrees that Taiwan is part of the PRC.
Anyone who has diplomatic relations with Taiwan (Republic of China) agrees that Mainland China is part of Taiwan (Republic of China).
Both China and Taiwan formally agree that "there is one China and Taiwan is a part of China."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy

The Qing Dynasty ceded Hong Kong to the UK in 1842 (before Japan's supposed takeover of the islands in 1895). Why did the UK handover Hong Kong to the PRC in 1997? By your logic, the UK can only hand over the land to the Qing dynasty.

The Qing Dynasty ceded Taiwan to Japan in 1895. Why was Taiwan handed over to the Republic of China in 1951? By your logic, Japan can only hand over the land to the Qing Dynasty.
 
S

sky

Member
God, the masses are so incredibly stupid...

Lucis said:
The only FURY Chinese people will send, will be towards their own citizens. In forms such as destroying Chinese citizen's Japan made cars, burning down Chinese owned Ramen shops.
Click to expand...

Yes, and that's exactly what's happening.
And you can bet tons of chinese businesses are rushing to stock up on flags and banners to sell, at a higher-than usual mark up.
 
G

genjiZERO

Member
numble said:
Anyone who has diplomatic relations with the PRC agrees that Taiwan is part of the PRC.
Anyone who has diplomatic relations with Taiwan (Republic of China) agrees that Mainland China is part of Taiwan (Republic of China).
Both China and Taiwan formally agree that "there is one China and Taiwan is a part of China."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy

The Qing Dynasty ceded Hong Kong to the UK in 1842 (before Japan's supposed takeover of the islands in 1895). Why did the UK handover Hong Kong to the PRC in 1997? By your logic, the UK can only hand over the land to the Qing dynasty.

The Qing Dynasty ceded Taiwan to Japan in 1895. Why was Taiwan handed over to the Republic of China in 1951? By your logic, Japan can only hand over the land to the Qing Dynasty.
Click to expand...

The whole Taiwan = China = Taiwan is in many ways a nationalistic fiction. "Mainland China" has no legal authority in Taiwan. Furthermore, the only way they could assert legal authority would be by waging war. True, the majority of the international community does not recognise Taiwan, but it still doesn't change the fact the Communist government in China has no police power (the power to enforce law) in Taiwan. Anyway, I'm not saying the "One China" thing is totally fictitious, just that it doesn't fully represent reality for the two territories, and so the point of control over the islands, if "China" has a legitimate claim, is arguable.

Also, that's not really my point.....

Regardless, of the status between the PRC and RoC my analysis is pretty straightforward. First, can China prove that it both actually claimed sovereignty and was in possession of the islands prior to Japan claiming them in the 1890s? IMO, a Ming Dynasty map claiming them probably isn't strong enough. There would need to be evidence of constant assertion of right and attempt to enforce that right. If China can't prove this then it seems that they should more accurately be considered unclaimed islands, and Japan should have legal right over them (they can't go back to China if China never had them to begin with). If China can prove that the islands were originally theirs, and that Japan took them in violation of their sovereign rights, then they should have been ceded to China following WW2. Then, of course, if they should have been ceded to China, you get into the whole China/Taiwan thing (like I said in the first paragraph that's at least arguable, and I don't think worth the effort for this topic).
 
G

Gaspode_T

Member
Wow...just crazy, do people even know what the islands are? I looked at pictures and they look almost uninhabitable, like some rocks sticking out of the ocean rather than "islands"

Why can't we just all get along...

I probably have less to worry about than any Japanese person over there, but I will probably not be out and about just to be on the safe side.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Gaspode_T said:
Wow...just crazy, do people even know what the islands are? I looked at pictures and they look almost uninhabitable, like some rocks sticking out of the ocean rather than "islands"

Why can't we just all get along...

I probably have less to worry about than any Japanese person over there, but I will probably not be out and about just to be on the safe side.
Click to expand...

The Chinese have a lot to be angry about. Furthermore, protests such as these are normally banned or cracked down against heavily.

When the Chinese government gives rioters free reign to break shit and let off some steam, a lot of irrational Chinese people will take that chance.
 
GTP_Daverytimes

GTP_Daverytimes

Member
Zefah said:
I hope not, considering some Chinese burned a Toyota factory to the fucking ground.

baea5ad9.jpg


b864a8d3.jpg
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Why are News stations avoiding this shit, it is getting out of hand. Am hearing rumors that Japan is sending its Aegis destroyers and that China has the islands surrounded with its submarines (take it with a grain of salt), shit is getting really serious.
 
N

numble

Member
genjiZERO said:
The whole Taiwan = China = Taiwan is in many ways a nationalistic fiction. "Mainland China" has no legal authority in Taiwan. Furthermore, the only way they could assert legal authority would be by waging war. True, the majority of the international community does not recognise Taiwan, but it still doesn't change the fact the Communist government in China has no police power (the power to enforce law) in Taiwan. Anyway, I'm not saying the "One China" thing is totally fictitious, just that it doesn't fully represent reality for the two territories, and so the point of control over the islands, if "China" has a legitimate claim, is arguable.

Also, that's not really my point.....

Regardless, of the status between the PRC and RoC my analysis is pretty straightforward. First, can China prove that it both actually claimed sovereignty and was in possession of the islands prior to Japan claiming them in the 1890s? IMO, a Ming Dynasty map claiming them probably isn't strong enough. There would need to be evidence of constant assertion of right and attempt to enforce that right. If China can't prove this then it seems that they should more accurately be considered unclaimed islands, and Japan should have legal right over them (they can't go back to China if China never had them to begin with). If China can prove that the islands were originally theirs, and that Japan took them in violation of their sovereign rights, then they should have been ceded to China following WW2. Then, of course, if they should have been ceded to China, you get into the whole China/Taiwan thing (like I said in the first paragraph that's at least arguable, and I don't think worth the effort for this topic).
Click to expand...

Both Taiwan and China rely on the argument that Japan took the islands from the Qing, Japan agreed to return the islands after WWII, Japan should return the islands to us, as the successors of the Qing dynasty. To say that Taiwan might have a claim but China does not is not logical, unless you think that the PRC is not the proper successor to the Qing dynasty (and you'd be objecting to the handovers of Macau and Hong Kong to the PRC).

China thinks they have more than a Ming dynasty map, including Japanese maps that claimed them to be Chinese territory, as well as a letter from the Japanese foreign minister in 1884 indicating that the islands had Chinese names, and that China and its newspapers were protesting Japanese activity on the islands, and believing that China will protest if they annex the islands in 1885. Requests to formally annex the islands were denied until they had beaten China in 1895. China believes these facts indicate that they falsely claim that the islands were considered unclaimed lands in 1895.

The Ihlen declaration by the Norwegian foreign ministry was found to be binding in a dispute between Norway and Denmark over the sovereignty of Eastern Greenland, so statements by foreign ministers can be used as evidence in sovereignty disputes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihlen_Declaration

I think China has an easier case of proving that the land was not terra nullius compared to Japan's case in proving that they were terra nullius in 1895, especially if we have the Japanese foreign minister saying China will protest if we take the islands in 1884 and 1885, with them taking the islands only after they had beaten China in 1895, and subsequently signing a treaty that says China will give them Taiwan and its surrounding islands.

The Eastern Greenland case shows how difficult it is to prove that land becomes terra nullius after it has been previously claimed, even without any exercise of power:
http://www.worldcourts.com/pcij/eng/decisions/1933.04.05_greenland.htm

That the King's claims amounted merely to pretensions is clear, for he had no permanent contact with the country, he was exercising no authority there. The claims, however, were not disputed. No other Power was putting forward any claim to territorial sovereignty in Greenland, and in the absence of any competing claim the King's pretensions to be the sovereign of Greenland subsisted.
Click to expand...
 
S

SMT

this show is not Breaking Bad why is it not Breaking Bad? it should be Breaking Bad dammit Breaking Bad
You did not just burn down a Nissan dealership, no... Toyota I can understand, motherfuckers deserve it. BUT NOT NISSAN!

Unbelievable, Japan Defense Force, go defend your enterprises!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pr9WY2Xyj0
 
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