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[Guerrillas in the Mist]

These things are always driven by fear and ignorance, and someone being of a differing religion, whether it's a Muslim in parts of America, or a Coptic Christian in Egypt, is an easy target. Hell, they don't have to even be of differing religions, just a different denomination.

 

[NullPointer]

It is nowhere near equal.

It doesn't have to be equal to go both ways, and it shouldn't be happening at all.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Go ask Muslims in the Middle East why they treat Christians so terribly. My family there gets harassed daily. Hell, one of our Churches was stormed into some years ago, and the priest was beheaded on the altar. That's violence.

I apologize for my irrational anger, but my experiences have taught me to roll my eyes at the "Muslims get discriminated" stories. I know it's ignorant, but I'm just being honest. However, I understand that what happened to this man was terrible. I just wished violence against Christians in Muslim countries was highlighted, as well.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I have a really hard time believing that, Jews never attack anyone and i've never heard any stories of Jews going out of their way to attack Muslims in North America or in Europe. On the other hand everytime a Jewish person is killed or attacked its almost always a Muslim person.

Believing what? Believing that I was refused service? Or believing that violence is advocated within the Jewish community (well more accurately amongst Zionists).

As to every time a Jewish person being killed or attacked it being a Muslim doing it.. well you'd need statistics or some kind of evidence for that kind of claim.

Didn't the president of Denmark just tell the Jews of his country to not wear obvious Jewish clothing on the streets because there are constant attacks against them by Muslims. Lets not forget how Jews are being forced to leave their homes in Sweden and in some communities in France because of the violence. It is nowhere near equal.Near me there is a Jewish Yeshiva school and the landlord who owns that school owns a lot of land around that area and he just sold land to a muslim man who wanted to create a Muslim school and mosque which he did and now are both standing side by side together. I live near a Jewish community and there is never any violence against one another and anyone can walk alone at night without being attacked. The Same cannot be said for other areas.

Lets get into an anecdote competition shall we. Inter-communal violence is inexcusable regardless of whom it is directed at. Coming into a thread and claiming that the violence against Muslims is somehow less serious because there exists violence (which you anecdotally claim to be perpetrated by Muslims) against another group, is a strange thing to do indeed.

Did you come in here with that intention? To lessen the severity or somehow imply that we have it coming?

 

[effzee]

Go ask Muslims in the Middle East why they treat Christians so terribly. My family there gets harassed daily. Hell, one of our Churches was stormed into some years ago, and the priest was beheaded on the altar. That's violence.

I apologize for my irrational anger, but my experiences have taught me to roll my eyes at the "Muslims get discriminated" stories. I know it's ignorant, but I'm just being honest. However, I understand that what happened to this man was terrible. I just wished violence against Christians in Muslim countries was highlighted, as well.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Though terrible incidents of Muslims being discriminatory and or violent against other groups leads to a lot of the anger and hostility in addition to those who just hate anyone different.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Go ask Muslims in the Middle East why they treat Christians so terribly. My family there gets harassed daily. Hell, one of our Churches was stormed into some years ago, and the priest was beheaded on the altar. That's violence.

Which church? Where?

I apologize for my irrational anger, but my experiences have taught me to roll my eyes at the "Muslims get discriminated" stories. I know it's ignorant, but I'm just being honest.

Yep.

 

[Gregorn]

When I was 13 I went to London a little while after Muslims bombed it, and I was scared of every Muslim I saw. I know it was stupid, but I was 13.

I guess some people just don't get over it and still have the mind of a child.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

When I was 13 I went to London a little while after Muslims bombed it, and I was scared of every Muslim I saw. I know it was stupid, but I was 13.

I guess some people just don't get over it and still have the mind of a child.

Fear and ignorance. It's universal, not limited to a particular race or religion, and a minority allow it to drive their lives and actions.

 

[OttomanScribe]

This just happened 2 days ago

http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/01/02/arabs-beat-yeshiva-student-unconscious-in-venice-attack/

Your own source says: 'An individual at the Chabad House in Venice who did not wish to be named told The Algemeiner that the student was recovering and that such incidents were rare in Venice.'

This doesn't support the picture you paint. Sorry.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Which church? Where?

A Syriac Orthodox church in Iraq.

 

[phosphor112]

Go ask Muslims in the Middle East why they treat Christians so terribly. My family there gets harassed daily. Hell, one of our Churches was stormed into some years ago, and the priest was beheaded on the altar. That's violence.

I apologize for my irrational anger, but my experiences have taught me to roll my eyes at the "Muslims get discriminated" stories. I know it's ignorant, but I'm just being honest. However, I understand that what happened to this man was terrible. I just wished violence against Christians in Muslim countries was highlighted, as well.

My condolences. The current state of Islam in the Middle East is highly... influenced by sources that weren't the original, so much so that "Muslim on Muslim" violence is a daily occurance. My uncle was killed in 1984 under Sadam, and the rest of my family there was targeted for being Shia. The Wahabbi's have really put a spin on things over there, making these things (killings in general) a norm. Just last year, my cousin was taken by a group of Wahabis and had his eyes gouged out and head decapitated.

Friendly folks over there...

 

[Measley]

That is pretty despicable.

 

[SoulPlaya]

My condolences. The current state of Islam in the Middle East is highly... influenced by sources that weren't the original, so much so that "Muslim on Muslim" violence is a daily occurance. My uncle was killed in 1984 under Sadam, and the rest of my family there was targeted for being Shia. The Wahabbi's have really put a spin on things over there, making these things (killings in general) a norm. Just last year, my cousin was taken by a group of Wahabis and had his eyes gouged out and head decapitated.

Friendly folks over there...

I appreciate your condolences (really). Saddam was ruthless killer, but his actions weren't motivated by religion. These types of attacks are. And Wahhabism isn't solely to blame in this aspect. These types of attacks against Christians (especially against the Christian minorities in the Mesopotamian region) have been going on for centuries, long before Wahhabism existed.

However, they certainly have made things much worse.

 

[SoccerGoaliePro]

Coming into a thread and claiming that the violence against Muslims is somehow less serious because there exists violence

Well discrimination against Muslims and discriminatory attacks against them isn't a big problem here in North america. Want stats?

Source Canadian government
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2012001/article/11635-eng.htm

Jews remain the faith group most likely to be targeted in hate crimes. There were 887 anti-Jewish incidents in 2010, comprising 67.1% of those linked to religion. This is 5.5 times the number of anti-Islamic incidents, despite the fact that the Jewish population is no more than two and a half times as large as the Muslim population in the U.S.

Source fbi
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes

oh and gee look at what else I just found

After an attack by several Muslim men on a Rabbi and his little girl in Berlin, German Jews are being told not to wear distinctive Jewish clothing to avoid trouble.

Despite Germany’s efforts to restore its Jewish community, due to the large number of Muslims there, Jews are being forced to hide their identity just as they had to do during the Holocaust.
http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/german-jews-warned-to-hide-after-muslim-attack/

 

[HurricaneJesus]

You can't be racist against muslims, by definition. You can be intolerant, which I think we all should be, but not to the point of physical harm, unless in self defense.

 

[Zapages]

I appreciate your condolences (really). Saddam was ruthless killer, but his actions weren't motivated by religion. These types of attacks are. And Wahhabism isn't solely to blame in this aspect. These types of attacks against Christians (especially against the Christian minorities in the Mesopotamian region) have been going on for centuries, long before Wahhabism existed.

However, they certainly have made things much worse.

wahabism has been in the middle east since the 1700s if i am not mistaken.

 

[OttomanScribe]

A Syriac Orthodox church in Iraq.

Are you serious?

You know what happened to Iraq right? You know that a man who claimed to be guided by Christ used cluster munitions and depleted uranium against that country right?

Sectarian violence, Muslim versus Christian, Shia versus Sunnah, Sunnah versus Shia etc. etc. is never okay. However complaining that your particular example is underpublicised or somehow more important than the horrors that happen every day in that country, is frankly a bit rich.

 

[Chuckie]

I appreciate your condolences (really). Saddam was ruthless killer, but his actions weren't motivated by religion. These types of attacks are. And Wahhabism isn't solely to blame in this aspect. These types of attacks against Christians (especially against the Christian minorities in the Mesopotamian region) have been going on for centuries, long before Wahhabism existed.

However, they certainly have made things much worse.

But the example of his cousin was well after Saddam, and by wahhabis so could be motivated by religion.

Condolences to both of you. It's a fucked up world

 

[Archer]

Why? 9/11.

 

[BocoDragon]

I think if you'd actually met such a racist you wouldn't need to ask why. These people are low-intelligence morons. It's not like thoughtful intellectuals express themselves like this (they'd probably state it more like Sam Harris... But I digress).

 

[SoulPlaya]

wahabism has been in the middle east since the 1700s if i am not mistaken.

Yes, and these types of attacks have existed since way before then.

Are you serious?

You know what happened to Iraq right? You know that a man who claimed to be guided by Christ used cluster munitions and depleted uranium against that country right?

Sectarian violence, Muslim versus Christian, Shia versus Sunnah, Sunnah versus Shia etc. etc. is never okay. However complaining that your particular example is underpublicised or somehow more important than the horrors that happen every day in that country, is frankly a bit rich.

Where did I say that it was more important? And that country included both Muslims and Christians, so I don't get your point. Finally, it's not Muslims versus Christians in Iraq. That would entail that one side was somehow fighting back.

Also, I would appreciate it if you lost the condescending attitude toward me. I'm from Iraq, so I know "what happened to Iraq."

But the example of his cousin was well after Saddam, and by wahhabis so could be motivated by religion.

Condolences to both of you. It's a fucked up world

I know. I acknowledged that with my "Wahabbism has made things worse" statement.

 

[Zapages]

Yes, and these types of attacks have existed since way before then.

That is surprising to hear because the Ummayads and the abbasi rulers of the region have known to be more understanding and tolerant than european rulers of those times. Historically speaking Jews were protected more under the moors than the Spanish rulers of those times. As those were the golden years of the Muslim empires.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Well discrimination against Muslims and discriminatory attacks against them isn't a big problem here in North america. Want stats?

So I ask you for stats showing that most attacks against Jews are being done by Muslims. You reply by showing me that Jews are being attacked.

That isn't a reply.

oh and gee look at what else I just found

After an attack by several Muslim men on a Rabbi and his little girl in Berlin, German Jews are being told not to wear distinctive Jewish clothing to avoid trouble.

Despite Germany’s efforts to restore its Jewish community, due to the large number of Muslims there, Jews are being forced to hide their identity just as they had to do during the Holocaust.
http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/german-jews-warned-to-hide-after-muslim-attack/

Nice link there.

Following it for a proper source led me on a nice self-referential circle. Would you have any more... reliable sources? Things that actually involved something like a conviction?

 

[HocusPocus]

Perhaps it is the people that represent the religion that give it a bad name. There are countless videos of Islamic leaders calling for the death of Israel, the Great American Satan, etc. If you don't want the impression of being this way then don't feed the propaganda machine such low hanging fruit. I mean come on.

 

[SoccerGoaliePro]

Didn't that Egyptian tv imam just threaten the Coptic Christians just yesterday?

 

[oneils]

Was he an Atheist?

He was kind of all over the place, it seems:

McVeigh was a registered Republican when he lived in Buffalo, New York in the 1980s, and had a membership in the National Rifle Association while in the military,[84] but voted for Libertarian Party candidate, Harry Browne, in the 1996 presidential elections.[85] McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic.[86] During his childhood, he and his father attended Mass regularly.[87] McVeigh was confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York, in 1985.[88] In a 1996 interview, McVeigh professed belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."[86] In the 2001 book American Terrorist, McVeigh stated that he did not believe in Hell and that science is his religion.[89][90] In June 2001, a day before the execution, McVeigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News identifying as agnostic.[91] Before his execution, McVeigh took the Catholic sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.[92]

 

[SoulPlaya]

That is surprising to hear because the Ummayads and the abbasi rulers of the region have known to be more understanding and tolerant than european rulers of those times. Historically speaking Jews were protected more under the moors than the Spanish rulers of those times. As those were the golden years of the Muslim empires.

The Abbasi came to an end in around 1258, though it really ended some time before that. You could argue that Wahhabism didn't begin to have much influence until this past century after the Ottomans became much weaker.

That's a long time in between.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Where did I say that it was more important?

When you said that it was more important? Enough that it makes you scoff at attacks that happen here. Did you scoff at that man mistaken for a Muslim and pushed in front of a train? Or maybe the woman stabbed to death in front of her husband and daughter in a courtroom in Germany?

And that country included both Muslims and Christians, so I don't get your point. Finally, it's not Muslims versus Christians in Iraq. That would entail that one side was somehow fighting back.

Yeah, the conflict between America and Iraq was relatively one sided wasn't it?

 

[IceCold]

Idk I think some of it, such as in Europe, would be because Muslims tend to be more conservative and religious. In a time when countries and people are getting more secular I could see this as being annoying to some people. There is also this belief that governments tend to bend over backwards to accommodate Muslims whereas other populations might be more prone to blend in and adapt to their host country instead of making it adapt to their beliefs. I'm talking about certain instances where some try to push sharia law, etc.

The media could do a better job though. If all you show is misery and violence when talking about Muslims then you can't expect people to have a good view about them.

 

[Zapages]

The Abbasi came to an end in around 1258, though it really ended some time before that. You could argue that Wahhabism didn't begin to have much influence until this past century after the Ottomans became much weaker.

That's a long time in between.

But you're saying muslims have attacked Christians for centuries. All i am asking is for proof?

 

[OttomanScribe]

Perhaps it is the people that represent the religion that give it a bad name. There are countless videos of Islamic leaders calling for the death of Israel, the Great American Satan, etc. If you don't want the impression of being this way then don't feed the propaganda machine such low hanging fruit. I mean come on.

This is addressed by the point previous about the Caliph. We can't rein in heterodox opinions.

 

[Chuckie]

Nice link there.

Following it for a proper source led me on a nice self-referential circle. Would you have any more... reliable sources? Things that actually involved something like a conviction?

I usually really enjoy reading your posts, but now you are just being obnoxious. That article has an internal link to the attack (which is normal for sites, to internally link to previous articles relating to the topic)

If you google Daniel Alter you will find lots of articles about the attack.

 

[Bigfoot]

1) Muslim isn't a race so you can't be racist to them
2) I think there is enough evidence in this thread that Muslims are targeted more than other religions... In fact, Jews seem to have it the worst

Maybe a better title for this thread should have been "Why are some people so bigoted against religious people?"

 

[SoccerGoaliePro]

So I ask you for stats showing that most attacks against Jews are being done by Muslims. You reply by showing me that Jews are being attacked.

That isn't a reply.

Nice link there.

Hmmm you have nothing to say to the facts so you go after my links?
Here have your share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNrqg2b-QEo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IAySx8mWozY
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161740#.UOdzRm99IpU
More sources for the German incident just for you.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/30/us-germany-rabbi-idUSBRE87T0UZ20120830
http://www.spiegel.de/international...ss-outrage-over-attack-on-rabbi-a-852934.html
http://www.dw.de/attack-on-berlin-rabbi-sparks-outrage-and-debate/a-16213428

You're acting as if its some surprise.

 

[The Technomancer]

Maybe a better title for this thread should have been "Why are some people so bigoted against religious people?"

The three Abrahamic faiths all have to cope with the fact that the other two are "perversions" of their belief, which leads to, well, tension.

 

[OttomanScribe]

But you're saying muslims have attacked Christians for centuries. All i am asking is for proof?

There has certainly been military conflict between Muslim and Christian states. That is a long history with many crimes throughout, on both sides. Getting into a listing competition is going to get lengthy.

 

[SoulPlaya]

But you're saying muslims have attacked Christians for centuries. All i am asking is for proof?

Outside of the 1800's, it's hard to find sources online. Most accounts come from historical books, the vast majority of which are in Aramaic, and hard to find.

However, here is an account of a large scale Christian persecution in Mesopotamia done by Timur, a Mongolian ruler who called himself the Sword of Islam. He practically wiped out the population of Christians in Mesopotamia in the 14th century. The Islamic Mongolian rule was particularly brutal on Christians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_early_and_Arab_Islamic_Caliphates

Of course, the Ottomans were horrendous too.

There has certainly been military conflict between Muslim and Christian states. That is a long history with many crimes throughout, on both sides. Getting into a listing competition is going to get lengthy.

Once again, this isn't about Muslim states vs Christian states. My point is about Muslim attacks on Christians that are indigenous to these areas, and in many cases, actually predate the Arabs and Muslims.

 

[Soyongdori]

Of course, the Ottomans were horrendous too.

But the Christians paid back the debt when Russians and Balkan allies came in crashing on Ottomans territory.

 

[Lafiel]

1) Muslim isn't a race so you can't be racist to them

It's not a race - but bigots use the word like it is one.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I usually really enjoy reading your posts, but now you are just being obnoxious. That article has an internal link to the attack (which is normal for sites, to internally link to previous articles relating to the topic)

If you google Daniel Alter you will find lots of articles about the attack.

No, what is telling is that the site he links from is an infamous Islamaphobic site. Which says something. I haven't denied the attack, rather I am confused as to how two incidents, whose only similarity is that the perpetrators are Arab (note the assumption that they are therefore Muslim) is somehow evidence of a massive trend of Muslim attacks on Jews.

Considering that the claim he needs to support is that the majority of attacks on Jews are by Muslims, and has supported this with a couple of articles that haven't established motive or even perpetrators (not in the article he links anyway), then I don't feel like I'm up against it in this discussion.

Must I do his research for him?

 

[SoulPlaya]

No, what is telling is that the site he links from is an infamous Islamaphobic site. Which says something. I haven't denied the attack, rather I am confused as to how two incidents, whose only similarity is that the perpetrators are Arab (note the assumption that they are therefore Muslim) is somehow evidence of a massive trend of Muslim attacks on Jews.

Considering that the claim he needs to support is that the majority of attacks on Jews are by Muslims, and has supported this with a couple of articles that haven't established motive or even perpetrators (not in the article he links anyway), then I don't feel like I'm up against it in this discussion.

Must I do his research for him?

Maybe the reason why the Jewish restaurant kicked you and your wife out isn't because they were Jewish and you were Muslim, but that they simply hated any kind of head garment?

 

[Nesotenso]

so we doing list wars now ? which Abrahamic faith has had it worse ?

 

[OttomanScribe]

However, here is an account of a large scale Christian persecution in Mesopotamia done by Timur, a Mongolian ruler who called himself the Sword of Islam. He practically wiped out the population of Christians in Mesopotamia in the 14th century. The Islamic Mongolian rule was particularly brutal on Christians.

Yeah. Because Timur was famous for his leniency towards Muslims. Damascus and Aleppo for example really prospered under his rule.

Once again, this isn't about Muslim states vs Christian states. My point is about Muslim attacks on Christians that are indigenous to these areas, and in many cases, actually predate the Arabs and Muslims.

Lol. Indigenous.

 

[Ashes]

True story: Americans distrust atheists more than they do Muslims.

Think about that for a second.

That's the first thing you thought of when reading the op?
I guess it was.

 

[Poohblaster]

You can't be racist against Muslims because Muslim isn't a race.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Maybe the reason why the Jewish restaurant kicked you and your wife out isn't because they were Jewish and you were Muslim, but that they simply hated any kind of head garment?

They told me they don't serve Muslims. But maybe they meant something else?

 

[Sianos]

Go ask Muslims in the Middle East why they treat Christians so terribly. My family there gets harassed daily. Hell, one of our Churches was stormed into some years ago, and the priest was beheaded on the altar. That's violence.

I apologize for my irrational anger, but my experiences have taught me to roll my eyes at the "Muslims get discriminated" stories. I know it's ignorant, but I'm just being honest. However, I understand that what happened to this man was terrible. I just wished violence against Christians in Muslim countries was highlighted, as well.

The people on both the sides of this "holy war" are not so different: both demonize the "others" because they are different and don't accept the same "path to enlightenment".

Both "sides" commit crimes, but they justify them because all members of that side are "evil". It's disgusting how blind and ignorant they are, waging this pointless war over personal beliefs. No one wins, everyone suffers.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Lol. Indigenous.

What's so funny?

The people on both the sides of this "holy war" are not so different: both demonize the "others" because they are different and don't accept the same "path to enlightenment".

Both "sides" commit crimes, but they justify them because all members of that side are "evil". It's disgusting how blind and ignorant they are, waging this pointless war over personal beliefs. No one wins, everyone suffers.

What crimes did the Assyrians in the region commit against the Muslims?

They told me they don't serve Muslims. But maybe they meant something else?

You have a link to prove this? Any recording from them?

so we doing list wars now ? which Abrahamic faith has had it worse ?

Jews have had it worst, and it's not even close. Not even close.

 

[OttomanScribe]

You can't be racist against Muslims because Muslim isn't a race.

What is a race? Is it something with a clear scientific meaning?

What's so funny?

I find the linking of ethnicity and Christianity in the ME particularly peculiar, because it leads to assertions like yours; namely talking about the religion being 'indigenous' to anywhere. It doesn't work like that. It is a further irony considering the history Christianity has with 'indigenous' religions. There are still copts for example. There are no druids though.

Not many worshippers of Quetzecoatl for that manner.

 

[SoccerGoaliePro]

Considering that the claim he needs to support is that the majority of attacks on Jews are by Muslims,

I like how you're shunning off all the facts im providing you. Take example of the RT news report. What are you gonna say RT is now some sort of Zionist puppet agency which isn't a real source?