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[The Technomancer]

There's people here saying 3.5GB is plenty of RAM? For gaming? What?

...on a console most definitly yes.

 

[rdrr gnr]

Why are party chat and cross game chat seen as such important features? I especially don't see much use for cross game chat. It's rare that I'd be able to focus on a conversation and play an entirely different game than the other person I'm talking to.

You're wrong and missing the point of cross game chat. Good thing it isn't relegated to people playing different games.

 

[JonathanPower]

Quick summary of specs dedicated to gaming:

Durango:

GPU- 1.229TFLOPS (12CUs@800MHz)
CPU- 6 Jaguar cores @ 1.6 GHz
RAM- 5GB DDR3(very low bandwith) + 32MB ESRAM(102.4GB/s)
Extra- "secret sauce"

Orbis:

GPU- 1.843TFLOPS (18CU@800MHz)
CPU- 7 Jaguar cores @ 1.6 GHz
RAM- 3.5GB GDDR5(very high bandwith)
Extra- Compute module for GPGPU, physics ect.

However, if the PS4 OS runs on a separate chip with its own memory, maybe on a Cell-derived chip, PS4 would have 8 cores and 4GB DDR5 available for games. I don't think Sony will use any of that very expensive DDR5 for the OS, it would be a vaste of money.

 

[CLEEK]

There's people here saying 3.5GB is plenty of RAM? For gaming? What?

For a console? Yes, absolutely. It's in line with a normal generational leap over the current gen.

4GB of RAM is an 8x increase over the PS3/360 memory. The 360's 512MB was an 8x increase over the Xbox's 64MB of RAM. The PS2's 32MB of RAM was a 9x increase over the PS1's 3.5 MB (2MB system RAM, 1MB VRAM, 512KB audio RAM).

The PS3 originally reserved a quarter of it's 512MB for the OS (this later was reduced down to 94MB, then to 50MB). This is in line with reserving 512MB of 4GB in the PS4. The PS4 will no doubt be doing far more background stuff than the PS3.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I did and I have spent the better half of a day trying to...write it out in a post coherently.

Damn ninjas affecting you're writing ability.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Why are party chat and cross game chat seen as such important features? I especially don't see much use for cross game chat. It's rare that I'd be able to focus on a conversation and play an entirely different game than the other person I'm talking to.

I've fallen in love with the party chat features on the xbox since its release, and kind of have a habit of chatting up any friends I catch online when I get on. It's nice.

It wouldn't be a deal breaker or anything... I'm just spoiled haha.

...on a console most definitly yes.

Yeah, my mistake. I think in my head I was thinking ddr3 for some strange reason and my brain turned off.

For a console? Yes, absolutely. It's in line with a normal generational leap over the current gen.

4GB of RAM is an 8x increase over the PS3/360 memory. The 360's 512MB was an 8x increase over the Xbox's 64MB of RAM. The PS2's 32MB of RAM was a 9x increase over the PS1's 3.5 MB (2MB system RAM, 1MB VRAM, 512KB audio RAM).

The PS3 originally reserved a quarter of it's 512MB for the OS (this later was reduced down to 94MB, then to 50MB). This is in line with reserving 512MB of 3GB in the PS4. The PS4 will no doubt be doing far more background stuff than the PS3.

It helps seeing it spelled out like this lol. Thanks.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

There's people here saying 3.5GB is plenty of RAM? For gaming? What?

According to the article by Richard in the OP, the PS Orbis is the most powerful console based off of what they know. It has the best RAM money can buy it sounds like. If they're incorrect about that conclusion and you know different information, then please share. ; )

 

[phosphor112]

If 16GB of Flash is used, why would 512MB of GDDR5 be used for the OS?

1) Flash storage is much slower than an SSD, but faster than an HDD.
2) It's not RAM. It's not meant to have data go from the flash to CPU. RAM is specifically made for that.

 

[i-Lo]

You know why it's there. (I'm sure you do.) You just want to get people to think for a moment. Yeah, I feel like that 16gig is almost guaranteed in there. Keeping multiple programs "open" and using it for data caching from the hard drive and optical drive. Not as fast as DDR3 but good enough when you have 3.5gigs of GDDR5 to pull the data.

So is my guess work valid:

I read something about flash memory may suffer from reliability issues from "over" usage. I am not certain how accurate that assessment would be with it being created in 2013.

However, a part 16GB could be a boon for streaming assets from. HDD -> X GB of 16GB flash -> 3.5GB GDDR5 RAM.

Is there a comparative speed chart for the transfer rate of these flash memories as opposed to 2.5" sata?

 

[Codeblew]

You sound snooty about this subject, obviously you can answer this question. What is the purpose of 16GB of Flash RAM?

It could be used to cache data streamed from the HDD or Bluray. Or temp storage for downloads or OS updates. Maybe the OS can be stored there as well. It is faster storage than HDD or Bluray but much slower than main memory. The OS would run in main ram. I don't even know if it is possible to run code directly from flash ram but I don't know why you would want to.

 

[oversitting]

You know why it's there. (I'm sure you do.) You just want to get people to think for a moment. Yeah, I feel like that 16gig is almost guaranteed in there. Keeping multiple programs "open" and using it for data caching from the hard drive and optical drive. Not as fast as DDR3 but good enough when you have 3.5gigs of GDDR5 to pull the data.

I don't see a need for caching onto flash memory since all the caching will be on a HDD already and the sequential read from a HDD is good enough to not use an SSD(flash). SSD mostly are good for IO and random read/writes when the program is installed on there. There is plenty of ram to preload a lot of what will happen in a game that a SSD wouldn't really improve game play. The extra cost is then rather pointless.

 

[yon61]

Did you ever use the Blades dashboard?

Still my favorite UI. I would often find myself just staring at its design. Was pretty sad that they got rid of it.

 

[omonimo]

According to the article by Richard in the OP, the PS Orbis is the most powerful console based off of what they know. It has the best RAM money can buy it sounds like. If they're incorrect about that conclusion and you know different information, then please share. ; )

I have read the article but I don't remember Richard said something about this.

 

[Ramblin]

Still my favorite UI. I would often find myself just staring at its design. Was pretty sad that they got rid of it.

Really? You know what they say about absence.

 

[nhlducks35]

Why are party chat and cross game chat seen as such important features? I especially don't see much use for cross game chat. It's rare that I'd be able to focus on a conversation and play an entirely different game than the other person I'm talking to.

While you may not want it, lots of other people do

 

[quest]

If either use flash ram as cache I hope it is replaceable. I know it has come a long ways but had a 3DO made useless when the onboard storage died. I also had 2 intel SSD drives die in the last few years. One in a desktop other in a laptop.

 

[CLEEK]

Is there a comparative speed chart for the transfer rate of these flash memories as opposed to 2.5" sata?

Until you know what speed flash storage they would use, it's hard to compare like for like. Flash is entirely variable, based on quality. Especially for write speed, which can be loads slower than HDDs at the lower end. Seeing how long it takes to install downloads on the WiiU, I think Nintendo have cheapened out and use flash with really poor write speeds, but OK read speeds.

You can also factor in the different types (speeds) of SATA drives and even the implementation of SATA used.

Rule of thumb: flash would be a lot faster than HDDs, but until you know the specs, you don't know by how much.

 

[infiniteheteroskdasticity]

If MS release a weaker gaming console, that also cost's substantially more than Sony's next console then the nextbox will be in big trouble. Maybe not so much in the U.S? but certainly in the ROTW.

I do not think there is any chance that the next XBox is cheaper to build than the new Playstation (unless Sony go nuts and add another 4GB of GDDR5). To get equivalent functionality to the new XBox in a Playstation, one would have to buy a Tivo ($30 + $20 pm) and a Move ($80 ish). I don't doubt that in the US at least, MS will attempt to use provider subsidies to lower the initial price point but the 2 year all in ownership cost will have to be more that the Playstation. I'm not certain that Microsoft will have many partners outside the US (maybe SKY in the UK) to help get the intial price point lower so barring something completely unforseen, there is no way they will be cheaper outside the US.

 

[Codeblew]

How would writing from HDD to Flash and then to RAM be faster than from HDD to Ram?

Caching. It means to load things into fast storage/memory in advance of when you need it so that when you do need it, you can load it fast. Think playing an MMO. The game engine knows you are getting close to a castle. They don't need to display the textures yet because it is on the other side of the mountain. But the engine knows that you are headed in that direction and it may be in view soon. The Game engine will cache the textures ahead of time so that when it is time to load it into main memory, they don't have to load it from the slow HDD or Bluray.

 

[Zutroy]

I have a feeling the PS4 OS is going to aesthetically be very similar to the new store design.

 

[CLEEK]

1) Flash storage is much slower than an SSD, but faster than an HDD.

Huh? SSDs use the same NAND storage as flash drives. They are the same thing.

 

[i-Lo]

Until you know what speed flash storage they would use, it's hard to compare like for like. Flash is entirely variable, based on quality. Especially for write speed, which can be loads slower than HDDs at the lower end. Seeing how long it takes to install downloads on the WiiU, I think Nintendo have cheapened out and use flash with really poor write speeds, but OK read speeds.

You can also factor in the different types (speeds) of SATA drives and even the implementation of SATA used.

Rule of thumb: flash would be a lot faster than HDDs, but until you know the specs, you don't know by how much.

Ah, I see. Thank you.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I do not think there is any chance that the next XBox is cheaper to build than the new Playstation (unless Sony go nuts and add another 4GB of GDDR5). To get equivalent functionality to the new XBox in a Playstation, one would have to buy a Tivo ($30 + $20 pm) and a Move ($80 ish). I don't doubt that in the US at least, MS will attempt to use provider subsidies to lower the initial price point but the 2 year all in ownership cost will have to be more that the Playstation. I'm not certain that Microsoft will have many partners outside the US (maybe SKY in the UK) to help get the intial price point lower so barring something completely unforseen, there is no way they will be cheaper outside the US.

But surely they'll have a pack that just includes a controller. If not, I see another $599 happening.

 

[funkystudent]

I have a feeling the PS4 OS is going to aesthetically be very similar to the new store design.

I think its going to look a lot like the Vita but the store will probably be a evolution of the current HTML5 ps3 store.

Live Area's and the way multi tasking works will probably very similar.

It probable depends if these touch screen controller rumours are true. That should have a big impact on the UI.

If its designed for touch then the current store probably wont work very well.

 

[quest]

I have a feeling the PS4 OS is going to aesthetically be very similar to the new store design.

I hope not because IMO the new store is a complete mess and a step backwards.

 

[infiniteheteroskdasticity]

But surely they'll have a pack that just includes a controller. If not, I see another $599 happening.

Everything seems to suggest that Kinect is an integral part of the user interface in the new XBox. We're not talking just games here - we're talking about the primary way to interact with the OS. Add to that rumors of AR goggles somewhere down the line and one speculate where they plan to go with that eventually.

 

[oversitting]

Everything seems to suggest that Kinect is an integral part of the user interface in the new XBox. We're not talking just games here - we're talking about the primary way to interact with the OS. Add to that rumors of AR goggles somewhere down the line and one speculate where they plan to go with that eventually.

Nope. It will be an optional interface option. You will still be able to click buttons to do stuff.

 

[CLEEK]

I hope not because IMO the new store is a complete mess and a step backwards.

My only issue with the new store is the speed of it. As far as its usability and presentation goes, it's a huge improvement. The search, filtering, and most importantly, sections of it make finding content far simpler.

The way each region sectioned off content with the old store layout was always a huge ache in the balls. Not it's far more intelligible and easy to navigate (speed issue aside).

 

[shinra-bansho]

But surely they'll have a pack that just includes a controller. If not, I see another $599 happening.

I expect Kinect 2.0 will be included as standard.

They seem to be putting far more effort into developing the tech than to simply have it as an optional peripheral.

 

[onQ123]

You know why it's there. (I'm sure you do.) You just want to get people to think for a moment. Yeah, I feel like that 16gig is almost guaranteed in there. Keeping multiple programs "open" and using it for data caching from the hard drive and optical drive. Not as fast as DDR3 but good enough when you have 3.5gigs of GDDR5 to pull the data.

Nope I only know that it's rumored to be there for OS patches but 16GB seems like a lot for it to be there for the OS / FW Updates , just like 4GB seems pretty big for the PS Vita OS.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Huh? SSDs use the same NAND storage as flash drives. They are the same thing.

Much of the SSD's speed comes from the controller hardware used to spread read and write commands across many individual NAND flash chips.

 

[rdrr gnr]

My only issue with the new store is the speed of it. As far as its usability and presentation goes, it's a huge improvement. The search, filtering, and most importantly, sections of it make finding content far simpler.

The way each region sectioned off content with the old store layout was always a huge ache in the balls. Not it's far more intelligible and easy to navigate (speed issue aside).

It has some downsides. Any featured section only has a limited selection of titles -- meaning you need to back out and pick a different section to see the rest of the games. I wish I could just continue in that menu and see other titles after the intended ones are presented to me.

 

[Karak]

Cool. What thread should we expect it in?

It is Xbox only info so most likely in that thread.

 

[pharmboy044]

I hope not because IMO the new store is a complete mess and a step backwards.

I actually really like the store. The only complaint is that they've added too many steps to buy stuff.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Everything seems to suggest that Kinect is an integral part of the user interface in the new XBox. We're not talking just games here - we're talking about the primary way to interact with the OS. Add to that rumors of AR goggles somewhere down the line and one speculate where they plan to go with that eventually.

I find hard to believe honestly. If all this stuff is forced in I won't buy it.

 

[onQ123]

It is Xbox only info so most likely in that thread.

When should we be expecting this post?

 

[rdrr gnr]

It is Xbox only info so most likely in that thread.

If you want to PM me a draft -- I'll check for grammatical errors.

 

[infiniteheteroskdasticity]

In a lot of ways I find this a interesting reversal of what happened 7-8 years back. This time, it is Sony that has a simple clear objective while Microsoft has a grandiose mission statement and a lot of not so clear objectives as a result. If I could sum up Microsoft's efforts outside of XBox this past decade it would be 'ambitious goals but sh*t execution'.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Huh? SSDs use the same NAND storage as flash drives. They are the same thing.

Flash drives don't have controllers, your PC is the memory controller. On flash drives you're writing to typically one or two NAND chips, versus on a SSD the memory controller distributing data over many upon many NAND chips configured much like RAID setting.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

I have read the article but I don't remember Richard said something about this.

I should've added a qualifier, but that's my understanding from this section:

There'll be a relatively high CPU overhead too, with potentially two cores reserved for the customisable apps Microsoft wants to run in parallel with gameplay. Orbis has no such ambitions and may power past the new Xbox simply because it focuses its resources on out-and-out games power. There's always the possibility that Microsoft has looked at the prior success of Nintendo and its own Kinect and come to the conclusion that chasing after the maximum in raw horsepower isn't the way to win the next console war.

If they'll be dedicating less resources or are still committed to an arms race so to speak, then please share.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

when is someone going to bring up, organize, and post all of the PS3/360 rumors, leaks, and predictions compared to what they really were. i'd really like to get a feel on how let down everyone was on them and compare it to what we currently think is going to be in 720/PS4.

"magic" CELL aside, specifically i am wondering about what the RAM estimates were. i was a big ps3forums.com user back in those times, and i don't remember being let down specifically by RAM when the specs were finally announced.

can anyone sound off? maybe something paraphrased?

 

[infiniteheteroskdasticity]

That's interesting - you're suggesting that the 720 will also double as a cable box, too. I think that's certainly a possibility, and would definitely massively expand the target market. It's why I think the AppleTV should be a cable box, too.

Still, that's a tall order, requiring a tonne of brand new, unprecedented licensing arrangements - and something that will certainly roll out in the U.S. first, and then Europe much later.

Arguably, Sony could be doing the more sensible thing by jumping straight to VOD/Netflix style delivery.

Exactly. The US cable market is ripe for a push. The traditional cable providers (Xfinity/Dish) offer overpriced bundles of too many channels and globally slow overpriced internet. The new kids on the block are ATT and Verizon who both have fiber optic based delivery systems and a lot of experience with subscription based services for new hardware categories (iphone). The Apple TV I was talking about is not today's hockey puck but the much speculated flat screen that is widely rumored (vaporware so far but I'm going with the no smoke without fire theory).

 

[kittens]

Still my favorite UI. I would often find myself just staring at its design. Was pretty sad that they got rid of it.

Man, I just can't fathom people who loved the blades design so much. It was ugly then, and it's only gotten uglier in retrospect.

 

[oversitting]

Man, I just can't fathom people who loved the blades design so much. It was ugly then, and it's only gotten uglier in retrospect.

This was basically how I felt. I enjoyed the UI after the blades the most. Simple and clean.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

when is someone going to bring up, organize, and post all of the PS3/360 rumors, leaks, and predictions compared to what they really were. i'd really like to get a feel on how let down everyone was on them and compare it to what we currently think is going to be in 720/PS4.

"magic" CELL aside, specifically i am wondering about what the RAM estimates were. i was a big ps3forums.com user back in those times, and i don't remember being let down specifically by RAM when the specs were finally announced.

can anyone sound off? maybe something paraphrased?

Almost all of Xbox 360 specs were leaked in early 2004. RAM was rumoured at 256 but even then it was expected to be increased to 512 by the time it got announced.

 

[infiniteheteroskdasticity]

Almost all of Xbox 360 specs were leaked in early 2004. RAM was rumoured at 256 but even then it was expected to be increased to 512 by the time it got announced.

Sony and Microsoft have been excellent at keeping secrets this time around. We're months away from the launch of all new consoles and nobody even knows what they are going to be called yet.

 

[Radec]

it's not about whether Sony can make a decent OS; it's about whether they can make one that can compare to one made by the biggest, most influential OS developer of our time.

and the answer is no, they can't. The question will be how far behind their OS will be. Or, how many more features the Xbox will have that the PS4 does not. There are still a number of features the PS3 hasn't been able to match that the 360 has, now several years later.



lol.

:lol

Sony and Microsoft have been excellent at keeping secrets this time around. We're months away from the launch of all new consoles and nobody even knows what they are going to be called yet.

I bet Orbis will be called "Playstation 4".

 

[Radec]

Dp.

 

[infiniteheteroskdasticity]

I bet Orbis will be called "Playstation 4".

Uncertain - 4 is not a particularly popular number across Asia. Numerology is big in out East.

 

[Drencrom]

There's people here saying 3.5GB is plenty of RAM? For gaming? What?

Well, it's supposedly 7.5 times faster than PS3's RAM (from 25.6 gb/s to 192gb/s)