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InXile's Torment successor gets a name

S

Sober

Member
Name is a bit meh, but there was already plenty of news about it using that new campaign setting, so excited either way.
 
A

Aaron

Member
I don't like a studio juggling two kickstarters at once. Seems like something that can go real bad real quick.
 
F

Frogacuda

Banned
If they want to just go back to the Kickstarter well for every game, they can fuck right off. Kickstarter is not supposed to be a pre-order market, it's a gift from gamers, and it's not one you should get more than once. It's gamers intentionally giving up their rights to vet a product before buying and taking a risk in order to enable a project that wouldn't exist otherwise.

It's KickSTARTer, not Kick-keep-it-going-er. If Wasteland 2 does well, they get to keep all the profits for themselves, and they can use that to fund another game. But you can't just keep asking people to buy games that don't exist yet over and over. That's incredibly anti-consumer.
 
M

Meier

Member
Frogacuda said:
If they want to just go back to the Kickstarter well for every game, they can fuck right off. Kickstarter is not supposed to be a pre-order market, it's a gift from gamers, and it's not one you should get more than once. It's gamers intentionally giving up their rights to vet a product before buying and taking a risk in order to enable a project that wouldn't exist otherwise.

It's KickSTARTer, not Kick-keep-it-going-er. If Wasteland 2 does well, they get to keep all the profits for themselves, and they can use that to fund another game. But you can't just keep asking people to buy games that don't exist yet over and over. That's incredibly anti-consumer.
Click to expand...

This. Completely this.
 
O

Odrion

Banned
Frogacuda said:
If they want to just go back to the Kickstarter well for every game, they can fuck right off. Kickstarter is not supposed to be a pre-order market, it's a gift from gamers, and it's not one you should get more than once. It's gamers intentionally giving up their rights to vet a product before buying and taking a risk in order to enable a project that wouldn't exist otherwise.

It's KickSTARTer, not Kick-keep-it-going-er. If Wasteland 2 does well, they get to keep all the profits for themselves, and they can use that to fund another game. But you can't just keep asking people to buy games that don't exist yet over and over. That's incredibly anti-consumer.
Click to expand...
Pretend that there's a gif of those five gentlemen raising a glass and clapping at this post.
 
L

loganclaws

Plane Escape Torment
Man they're just using fan nostalgia to have a good kickstarter... This won't even come close to Planescape Torment. The planescape campaign had so much lore, this new world or whatever will feel shallow and the game will most definitely suffer for it. Another possibility is that the game will just feel like a copycat of PS:T where they try to shoehorn the same events/tropes.
 
S

Sullen

Member
loganclaws said:
Man they're just using fan nostalgia to have a good kickstarter... This won't even come close to Planescape Torment. The planescape campaign had so much lore, this new world or whatever will feel shallow and the game will most definitely suffer for it. Another possibility is that the game will just feel like a copycat of PS:T where they try to shoehorn the same events/tropes.
Click to expand...

You realize Numenera is a tabletop RPG setting designed by Monte Cook? The same Monte Cook that wrote most of the Planescape books.
 
S

Sullen

Member
loganclaws said:
Nope, thanks for letting me know. Still, this setting is pretty brand new if I'm not mistaken?
Click to expand...

Yeah, mid last year it was a kickstarter I believe. I don't think it is out yet, actually. Still, Monte Cook has quite the reputation and resume in the pen and paper world so I'm excited about it.
 
F

Frogacuda

Banned
exmachina64 said:
Brian Fargo said they would do this at the end of the Wasteland 2 campaign. Did no one take him seriously until Torment was announced?
Click to expand...
I wasn't tuned in, I guess.

I'm very pro Kickstarter, for what it's worth. I've backed quite a few projects and I think it's had a very positive impact on the gaming scene as a whole. But when companies that have other opportunities try to keep going back because it's free money, that's exploitative. I thought the Pathfinder MMO campaign was scummy as hell, and this, while not as scammy as that, is taking advantage of people as well.

With Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity's huge success, he could FOR SURE find an investor/publisher to back this. But free money and a bigger share of the profits is better for him, even if it's worse for us, and that's his choice. Fuck that.
 
L

Lancehead

Member
Frogacuda said:
I wasn't tuned in, I guess.

I'm very pro Kickstarter, for what it's worth. I've backed quite a few projects and I think it's had a very positive impact on the gaming scene as a whole. But when companies that have other opportunities try to keep going back because it's free money, that's exploitative. I thought the Pathfinder MMO campaign was scummy as hell, and this, while not as scammy as that, is taking advantage of people as well.

With Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity's huge success, he could FOR SURE find an investor/publisher to back this. But free money and a bigger share of the profits is better for him, even if it's worse for us, and that's his choice. Fuck that.
Click to expand...

Again, you weren't paying attention. Fargo burned bridges with publishers with W2 kickstarter. One can say he has no choice but to go to Kickstarter until their games start generating revenue to sustain themselves. Which is why I won't quite call this "exploitative". One can also say Fargo's burning bridges with publishers was short-sighted/stupid, but it was understandable.

Also, no, even if Fargo could work with publishers normally, no one would fund this. Torment is a niche of the niche game.
 
A

ambientmystic

Member
Lancehead said:
Again, you weren't paying attention. Fargo burned bridges with publishers with W2 kickstarter. One can say he has no choice but to go to Kickstarter until their games start generating revenue to sustain themselves. Which is why I won't quite call this "exploitative". One can also say Fargo's burning bridges with publishers was short-sighted/stupid, but it was understandable.
Click to expand...

This. They're basically 'self publishing' their titles from here on out.
 
E

exmachina64

Banned
Frogacuda said:
I wasn't tuned in, I guess.

I'm very pro Kickstarter, for what it's worth. I've backed quite a few projects and I think it's had a very positive impact on the gaming scene as a whole. But when companies that have other opportunities try to keep going back because it's free money, that's exploitative. I thought the Pathfinder MMO campaign was scummy as hell, and this, while not as scammy as that, is taking advantage of people as well.

With Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity's huge success, he could FOR SURE find an investor/publisher to back this. But free money and a bigger share of the profits is better for him, even if it's worse for us, and that's his choice. Fuck that.
Click to expand...

Yeah, my first draft of my post mentioned the free money aspect.

While I don't like Fargo constantly using KS, I shudder to think of which publisher he'd partner with. The publisher he seems closest with is EA and I'll just refuse to buy his games on principle if they ever publish one of his games.
 
Z

Zeliard

Member
Frogacuda said:
I wasn't tuned in, I guess.

I'm very pro Kickstarter, for what it's worth. I've backed quite a few projects and I think it's had a very positive impact on the gaming scene as a whole. But when companies that have other opportunities try to keep going back because it's free money, that's exploitative. I thought the Pathfinder MMO campaign was scummy as hell, and this, while not as scammy as that, is taking advantage of people as well.

With Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity's huge success, he could FOR SURE find an investor/publisher to back this. But free money and a bigger share of the profits is better for him, even if it's worse for us, and that's his choice. Fuck that.
Click to expand...

Literally the only thing Kickstarter is is another avenue for funding. It's no different than going to any other source to get the money to create your game. If a dev wants to use Kickstarter from now until the end of time, there's nothing stopping them except consumer dissatisfaction or apathy. If a team isn't on-point with their Kickstarter titles and back-and-forths with fans, that will inevitably create a situation where they don't get the proper funding, so it will work itself out naturally.

Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity also probably aren't striking much fear into publishers. The actual amount of backers is relatively very small. It works out because of the pledge amounts and the low game budget. Kickstarter is just a completely different model for games funding, but like any other, it's still just a model and should be used whenever one feels it would be more effective to do so relative to going to other options.

Torment lends itself particularly well to KS, because no publishers would fund it, and if they did I shudder to think of what they'd want it to include. Classic though it is, Torment is still highly obscure and not the most approachable sort of game.
 
E

exmachina64

Banned
Zeliard said:
Torment lends itself particularly well to KS, because no publishers would fund it, and if they did I shudder to think of what they'd want it to include. Classic though it is, Torment is still highly obscure and not the most approachable sort of game.
Click to expand...

It's not that hard to imagine. Multiplayer would be the primary focus. Day 1 DLC with more added over the course of two years. Facebook and Twitter integration. Ditch the isometric camera for a third person over-the-shoulder view. Perhaps make it an Origin exclusive?

Don't forget the AAA marketing campaign to market it to more important consumers than us.
 
F

Frogacuda

Banned
Lancehead said:
Again, you weren't paying attention. Fargo burned bridges with publishers with W2 kickstarter.
Click to expand...
That's bullshit. He proved to publishers he was more valuable than they gave him credit for. He greatly upped his potential to raise money with pubs. He just doesn't want to.

Publishers are not mad at companies like inXile and Double Fine any more than they're mad at Mojang. They see these as missed opportunities, and trust me, they want to get on board.

But they also still want to own the lion's share of the profits, and that's bad for devs. I get why passing the risk and burden onto someone else is good for inXile, but I just don't think that's our responsibility when they have other options.
 
F

Frogacuda

Banned
Zeliard said:
Literally the only thing Kickstarter is is another avenue for funding. It's no different than going to any other source to get the money to create your game. If a dev wants to use Kickstarter from now until the end of time, there's nothing stopping them except consumer dissatisfaction or apathy. If a team isn't on-point with their Kickstarter titles and back-and-forths with fans, that will inevitably create a situation where they don't get the proper funding, so it will work itself out naturally.
Click to expand...
All I'm saying is that they won't get my money, and they don't deserve yours.

Kickstarter isn't good for us, as consumers, and should be reserved for the exceptional projects. I know this and I pledge anyway to projects that actually need it, for those cases I feel are special, but I'm not going to do that for someone who can self-fund, or get publisher money, and both of those options are wide open to inXile.
 
D

DocSeuss

Member
Frogacuda said:
I wasn't tuned in, I guess.

I'm very pro Kickstarter, for what it's worth. I've backed quite a few projects and I think it's had a very positive impact on the gaming scene as a whole. But when companies that have other opportunities try to keep going back because it's free money, that's exploitative. I thought the Pathfinder MMO campaign was scummy as hell, and this, while not as scammy as that, is taking advantage of people as well.

With Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity's huge success, he could FOR SURE find an investor/publisher to back this. But free money and a bigger share of the profits is better for him, even if it's worse for us, and that's his choice. Fuck that.
Click to expand...

You don't follow him on Twitter, do you?

He's all about Kickstarter as a way of getting people to, effectively, vote on the kinds of games they want to buy.

We're talking about a guy who is so into the idea of crowdsourcing that his team is actively encouraging people to put assets on the Unity store so they can purchase it from those people and put it in game.

He wants to have people--the customers and fans--involved in everything he does from here on out at as many levels as possible.
 
F

Frogacuda

Banned
DocSeuss said:
You don't follow him on Twitter, do you?
Click to expand...
I do, actually. But I don't look at Twitter much.

He's all about Kickstarter as a way of getting people to, effectively, vote on the kinds of games they want to buy.
Click to expand...
Bullshit. Project Eternity and Wasteland 2 made that vote loud and clear. There is no question of this project's commercial viability. It's just a way to get free money.

He wants to have people--the customers and fans--involved in everything he does from here on out at as many levels as possible.
Click to expand...
That's terrific, and I hope he does. I just hope he does it using the profits from his games. inXile is a business, and if they're making a profit, it's on them to invest that back and keep it going. Otherwise it's just a charity, and he should be giving the games away at the end.
 
L

Lancehead

Member
Frogacuda said:
That's bullshit. He proved to publishers he was more valuable than they gave him credit for. He greatly upped his potential to raise money with pubs. He just doesn't want to.

Publishers are not mad at companies like inXile and Double Fine any more than they're mad at Mojang. They see these as missed opportunities, and trust me, they want to get on board.

But they also still want to own the lion's share of the profits, and that's bad for devs. I get why passing the risk and burden onto someone else is good for inXile, but I just don't think that's our responsibility when they have other options.
Click to expand...

He proved what? That there are 60000 people pitched in for $3m, a lot of which has come from a minority pledging way more than the game price? $3m is peanuts in game industry. All Fargo proved is that W2 is extremely niche, and publishers made a wise decision not funding it themselves.

Also you should go back and read Fargo's interviews and videos; publishers have got no reason to work with him after what he said, and also looking at the appeal of these Kickstarters.
 
D

DTKT

Member
Actually, commercial viability is still very much a "we'll see". We really don't know if we tapped out the market with the Kickstarter. Do you have enough players interested when the game comes out? Did you get everyone as backers? Who's left to buy the game?

It might be a a "perfect-storm" type of thing.
 
L

Lafiel

と呼ぶがよい
I'm not so sure if I'm getting where the apathy towards kickstarters is coming from. I mean even if InXile exclusively went with kickstarter as a way of publishing their future titles. Isn't that a win-win to you as a consumer? because with almost every kickstarter in existence you are essentially getting more value for your $ than you would with a traditionally published video game.;p
 
F

Frogacuda

Banned
Lancehead said:
He proved what? That there are 60000 people pitched in for $3m, a lot of which has come from a minority pledging way more than the game price? $3m is peanuts in game industry. All Fargo proved is that W2 is extremely niche, and publishers made a wise decision not funding it themselves.
Click to expand...
lawl.

He raised $3 million for a game that didn't even exist. He will then make a game for that meager budget, and sell it when it comes out to a great deal more people who would never buy a game before it exists. And he will likely make a 200% ROI. Which is a shitload better than most AAA games.
DTKT said:
Actually, commercial viability is still very much a "we'll see".
Click to expand...
By my calculations, if they sell one copy after it comes out, they will have made a profit. Which is more than a lot of games do nowadays.

Low risk, high yield projects are very attractive. Companies are very cautious about what they'll drop $50 million into, but $3 million is a joke to them, and if they can turn $3 million into $10 million, that's an attractive deal.

Believe me, publishers are watching what happens on Kickstarter, and taking notes. They're not making a blacklist, they're realizing the potential of these small-but-underserviced markets that can be very profitable.
 
P

PFD

Member
exmachina64 said:
It's not that hard to imagine. Multiplayer would be the primary focus. Day 1 DLC with more added over the course of two years. Facebook and Twitter integration. Ditch the isometric camera for a third person over-the-shoulder view. Perhaps make it an Origin exclusive?

Don't forget the AAA marketing campaign to market it to more important consumers than us.
Click to expand...

You forgot dialogue wheel with a smiley face for the good option, and an angry face for the evil option.
 
M

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
Frogacuda said:
All I'm saying is that they won't get my money, and they don't deserve yours.

Kickstarter isn't good for us, as consumers, and should be reserved for the exceptional projects. I know this and I pledge anyway to projects that actually need it, for those cases I feel are special, but I'm not going to do that for someone who can self-fund, or get publisher money, and both of those options are wide open to inXile.
Click to expand...

I guess we'll see if the masses agree with you when it comes time, then. I have a feeling they don't, though.
 
Wiktor

Wiktor

Member
The setting was kickstarter too. So the PC adaptation doing the same makes sense.

I expect a lot of companies to do multiple Kickstarters. That's what's happening with PnP RPGs and board games. I just hope they will release Wasteland 2 first before starting with Torment KS.
 
F

Frogacuda

Banned
MattKeil said:
I guess we'll see if the masses agree with you when it comes time, then. I have a feeling they don't, though.
Click to expand...

Pathfinder already proved that they don't. Those guys said in their goddamn pitch video that they had publisher backing for the project, but that they wanted an extra million dollars to um... make it... faster. Which is a bald-faced lie. And people lined up and pledged an average of like $120 and made it happened.

People are really nice, and that kindess can be easily exploited. But it shouldn't be.
 
L

Lancehead

Member
Frogacuda said:
lawl.

He raised $3 million for a game that didn't even exist. He will then make a game for that meager budget, and sell it when it comes out to a great deal more people who would never buy a game before it exists. And he will likely make a 200% ROI. Which is a shitload better than most AAA games.
Click to expand...

And publishers raise dozens of millions for a game that doesn't exist, and sell it to millions of people.

All you're saying is that publishers are eager to ignore opportunity costs and put down $3m to sell it to ~ 100,000 people to get a profit of, say, $1m. And that is so appealing to AAA industry. Sure thing.
 
F

Frogacuda

Banned
Lancehead said:
And publishers raise dozens of millions for a game that doesn't exist, and sell it to millions of people.
Click to expand...

No. Publishers SPEND dozens of millions to make the game exist. Understand the distinction?

All you're saying is that publishers are eager to ignore opportunity costs and put down $3m to sell it to ~ 100,000 people to get a profit of, say, $1m. And that is so appealing to AAA industry. Sure thing.
Click to expand...
During a time when less than half of AAA games are making back their investment, you better believe it's appealing.
 
A

Almighty

Member
A Torment Kickstater huh well I share this sentiment right now

Frogacuda said:
If they want to just go back to the Kickstarter well for every game, they can fuck right off.
Click to expand...

I am not surprised that Fargo is planning to do this and he has mentioned it before. I just think it is a terrible idea. I pledged to Wasteland 2, but Fargo is smoking crack if he thinks I will pledge another game of his before that is out. Two the whole reason I pledged for Wasteland 2 was so he could get a start and get the ball rolling not so he could hit me up for money again with his new idea.

Lancehead said:
And publishers raise dozens of millions for a game that doesn't exist, and sell it to millions of people.

All you're saying is that publishers are eager to ignore opportunity costs and put down $3m to sell it to ~ 100,000 people to get a profit of, say, $1m. And that is so appealing to AAA industry. Sure thing.
Click to expand...

The AAA industry is not the only guys around. Not on the PC. There are guys like Paradox and Stardock just to name two that might be interested in making 3 million dollar game.
 
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