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[Berg]

Diminishing returns? A lot of games are not even 720p and a steady 30fps on these consoles.

I mean, diminishing returns? What?

Im assuming this is what he's talking about..

There's no doubt that every game forum member can tell a difference (jaggies, textures, lighting, etc)... I'm just not totally convinced that the casual game console user will see a big enough difference to shell out multi-100 dollars.

 

[LCGeek]

You definitely have not been paying attention then.

He's new to gaf anyone here during the PS2 era wouldn't agree with that comment. Kiddie has been thrown around at nintendo since the N64.

 

[megabytecr]

Wii U is the perfect console for parents, and will be even more when it reaches mass market prices.

It is the perfect excuse for parents to get a new console.

Speaking for myself, I have a 7 and 8 year old kids, myself and the wife next, all hooked on Lego City Undercover, perfect all around generational game.

I just hope games are released at an steady pace after July.

 

[Steroyd]

It was even more prominent in the GC era especially with WW reveal. The Wii definitely got less kiddy remarks due to appealing to older people.

That's because it moved from "kiddy" to "non-games".

 

[shinobi602]

The graphics won't be a big deal this time round. The Wii U, PS4 and Durango will all be HD consoles. Diminishing returns. We've reached the point where even GAFers are debating whether the PS4 graphics shown at the Sony conference were much of a leap.

 

[Hsieh]

He's new to gaf anyone here during the PS2 era wouldn't agree with that comment. Kiddie has been thrown around at nintendo since the N64.

Nintendo has been kiddie ever since Mortal Kombat didn't allow blood on the SNES.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

Wii U is the perfect console for parents, and will be even more when it reaches mass market prices.

It is the perfect excuse for parents to get a new console.

Speaking for myself, I have a 7 and 8 year old kids, myself and the wife next, all hooked on Lego City Undercover, perfect all around generational game.

I just hope games are released at an steady pace after July.

By the time they get down to 'mass market prices' the Xbox and PS3 will be down to $99 with a huge, cheap back catalogue.

 

[netBuff]

Im assuming this is what he's talking about..

There's no doubt that every game forum member can tell a difference (jaggies, textures, lighting, etc)... I'm just not totally convinced that the casual game console user will see a big enough difference to shell out multi-100 dollars.

That's a very misleading graphic: More polygons isn't the only thing in terms of graphics, physics and AI improvements the next generation is going to bring to the table (and more polygons in places where the mesh is very sparse at the moment will certainly bring big returns - just think of rubble).

Wii U is the perfect console for parents, and will be even more when it reaches mass market prices.

It is the perfect excuse for parents to get a new console.

Speaking for myself, I have a 7 and 8 year old kids, myself and the wife next, all hooked on Lego City Undercover, perfect all around generational game.

I just hope games are released at an steady pace after July.

Buying a Wii U really is the perfect excuse for buying another console, considering it's anemic lineup and barely usable core system functionality.

 

[metalslimer]

That's because it moved from "kiddy" to "non-games".

Doesnt change the point

By the time they get down to 'mass market prices' the Xbox and PS3 will be down to $99 with a huge, cheap back catalogue.

I doubt either one goes below 150.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Revisionist nonsense, early this gen only Nintendo had motion control and that sold to mostly those who never bought a games console ever, to call it popular, as in the dominant type of gaming is false ......... it was a fad.

Also I don't remember anyone stating that the 360 was a disaster in its first few years.

Sales have jumped the last few years because the price got cheaper allowing more and more to join in.

Call of Duty 4 launched 2007, very much at the start of this gen .......... this has been the generation where pc online gaming arrived on the home console and exploded, so much so that developers now make a deal of it to state they have a single player component.



The HD twins are successful due to games, technology and the new online, connected community aspect of games ......... Call of Duty displays this beautifully.


Also don't discount the core helping to create the positive buzz around a new console that feeds out into the world.

Sorry for the late reply to this but it's not revisionism or nonsense to address the fact that games, not technology, sell gaming systems. One will usually lead to the other as we've seen with both the Wii and now the Wii U in terms of the lack of support but if either of those systems had the libraries that the PS360 combo has the Wii wouldn't have fallen off a cliff and the Wii U wouldn't be struggling to keep up with the Vita's sales numbers.

Dismissing the Wii's success as a fad just illustrates how out of touch the average hardcore gamer is with the general market. The Wii was just as much of a fad as the PS2 was, the difference is that the PS2 got prolonged support regardless of it's specs.

 

[Berg]

That's because it moved from "kiddy" to "non-games".

true. and it's an opinion thing really. IIRC WiiU has more games retail/eshop than 360/ps3 had at this point in their life.

edit:

That's a very misleading graphic: More polygons isn't the only thing in terms of graphics, physics and AI improvements the next generation is going to bring to the table (and more polygons in places where the mesh is very sparse at the moment will certainly bring big returns).

going back to my post your replying too, are you sure that the average console gamer will notice AI and physics? Yea gaffers are for sure....

 

[KageMaru]

Im assuming this is what he's talking about..

There's no doubt that every game forum member can tell a difference (jaggies, textures, lighting, etc)... I'm just not totally convinced that the casual game console user will see a big enough difference to shell out multi-100 dollars.

Thankfully poly counts don't really matter much in rendering these days. =p

The idea of diminishing returns is real, but it's also further out than most realize or care to admit.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

The graphics won't be a big deal this time round. The Wii U, PS4 and Durango will all be HD consoles. Diminishing returns. We've reached the point where even GAFers are debating whether the PS4 graphics shown at the Sony conference were much of a leap.

Anyone who says that has no idea what they´re talking about. And the rest is lol.

That's only gen 7, though. My point was that Nintendo aims to draw all demographics to their consoles. The "kiddie" argument really only came around this gen.

The kiddie argument is real, and Nintendo mainly (largely) target children.

 

[Slayven]

By the time they get down to 'mass market prices' the Xbox and PS3 will be down to $99 with a huge, cheap back catalogue.

Man when they hit 99 dollars Gamestop will be having buy 1 get 5 free just to clear space.

 

[SmokedMeat]

That's only gen 7, though. My point was that Nintendo aims to draw all demographics to their consoles. The "kiddie" argument really only came around this gen.

I think it might've started in the N64 era.

 

[Log4Girlz]

It's awesome what developers can do when they give a damn, and in that short time they did it too, when was it they started on the Wii U version, in late December/early January?

I wonder what a game could run/look like on a 6-7 year long optimized/tweaked game-engine.

Rumor was circulating here on GAF that it was already done and ready to launch in December. Not sure if that was accurate.

The Wii U will not dramatically improve upon the last generation. It will be a long while before you see anything match Last of Us let alone exceed it. We'll be waiting on Retro I suppose.

 

[troushers]

This should be a banned meme by now.

I'm playing Bioshock Inifinite on a rig that craps on 360 and PS3 right now, and we've still got fucking 2D textures for shit like grass and rosebush hedges, and rigid cloth that cannot budge. There's not a game I've ever played where I don't notice elements that have been compromised for performance sake, and that's leaving out stuff like physics which have SO far to go right now (hell, semi-realistic hair can be a performance killer - see TressFX - and all hair and all cloth and so on should be modeled this way).

We have a long way to go.

And you are indicative of mainstream opinion how? Hilarious to imagine the average consumer notices rose bush hedges. Is this a parody post about ridiculous Neogaf PC elitism?

 

[Baconsammy]

The generation didn't end yet. Motion gaming was most certainly a fad. Somebody should send Microsoft the memo btw.

The Wii U uses Wii motes. The PS4 has a brand new Eye camera with sensors built into every dual shock. Motion gaming may be a fad, but it's not being killed off by any of the console makers.

 

[AstroNut325]

That diminishing returns pic should be ban worthy! So much wrong and misinformation in that one pic!

 

[Slayven]

The saddest thing is not devs laughing at the Wii U. The saddest thing is Nintendo releasing a video showing they reduced the lag in the OS and being proud at that shit. Something that is so basic and should have been done before even the games went in development.

 

[metalslimer]

The Wii U uses Wii motes. The PS4 has a brand new Eye camera with sensors built into every dual shock. Motion gaming may be a fad, but it's not being killed off by any of the console makers.

Which proves its not a fad. When was the last time there was a 10+ year fad

Edit: I dont even get why the current dimishing returns argument comes from. There will be a huge leap that will be noticable. Dimishing returns is about whether the costs are worth it anyway. It has nothing to do with how big of a leap there is.

 

[netBuff]

And you are indicative of mainstream opinion how? Hilarious to imagine the average consumer notices rose bush hedges. Is this a parody post about ridiculous Neogaf PC elitism?

I'm pretty sure most people will be able to see the difference in image quality (let alone feel better performance - there's a reason for CoDs success this generation).

 

[axisofweevils]

There's no doubt that every game forum member can tell a difference (jaggies, textures, lighting, etc)... I'm just not totally convinced that the casual game console user will see a big enough difference to shell out multi-100 dollars.

Yep. That's exactly what I'm getting at.

 

[Syphon Filter]

The Wii U uses Wii motes. The PS4 has a brand new Eye camera with sensors built into every dual shock. Motion gaming may be a fad, but it's not being killed off by any of the console makers.

They should.

 

[JordanN]

Thankfully poly counts don't really matter much in rendering these days. =p

They still mean alot. Detailed environments, character models, normals maps all depend on having a high polycount.

The use of displacement maps next gen will be a sole result of having the power to render them.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

true. and it's an opinion thing really. IIRC WiiU has more games retail/eshop than 360/ps3 had at this point in their life.

edit:

going back to my post your replying too, are you sure that the average console gamer will notice AI and physics? Yea gaffers are for sure....

That was a very misleading graphic as visuals do not solely depend on polygons.

I am sure the average person can tell the difference between this gen and stuff like this:

 

[Shion]

Im assuming this is what he's talking about..

There's no doubt that every game forum member can tell a difference (jaggies, textures, lighting, etc)... I'm just not totally convinced that the casual game console user will see a big enough difference to shell out multi-100 dollars.

Even if what you say turns out to be true, people will eventually buy the PS4 and Xbox 720 to play the next Grand Theft Auto, Elder Scrolls etc.

 

[Berg]

That diminishing returns pic should be ban worthy! So much wrong and misinformation in that one pic!

You have your hand raised..
Fill me in how this is misinforming, rather then generalizing, diminishing returns of graphics.

edit:

Even if what you say turns out to be true, people will eventually buy the PS4 and Xbox 720 to play the next Grand Theft Auto, Elder Scrolls etc.

totally true.

edit2:

That was a very misleading graphic as visuals do not solely depend on polygons.

I am sure the average person can tell the difference between this gen and stuff like this:

now throw some of the popular current gen gifs in with those...Yea a big difference for dudes like us who visit GAF on the reg. What about the casual console gamer?

 

[BotoxAgent]

The graphics won't be a big deal this time round. The Wii U, PS4 and Durango will all be HD consoles. Diminishing returns. We've reached the point where even GAFers are debating whether the PS4 graphics shown at the Sony conference were much of a leap.

lol

let's pretend that you're right though, and it's all about the games. Um, yeah, the Wii U is still in deep monumental sh*t

 

[megabytecr]

Buying a Wii U really is the perfect excuse for buying another console, considering it's anemic lineup and barely usable core system functionality.

That is your take on it, our whole family is really enjoying it right now. No regrets.

By the time they get down to 'mass market prices' the Xbox and PS3 will be down to $99 with a huge, cheap back catalogue.

ok, fair enough, but they will be considered previous gen. Wii U will be competing against PS4 and Xbox 720, and will be supported for years to come.

edit: just play games and enjoy. Yes Wii U has issues, but they have not bother me whatsoever. I really love options and companies taking risks trying to differentiate from each other, this is why I love my Wii and Wii U. I am sure I will get that other system to scratch that graphics itch, but I respect people that only will have a Wii U. I was a graphics whore and I have changed my mind this gen.

really enjoying Wii U's anemic lineup.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

The graphics won't be a big deal this time round. The Wii U, PS4 and Durango will all be HD consoles. Diminishing returns. We've reached the point where even GAFers are debating whether the PS4 graphics shown at the Sony conference were much of a leap.

it's gonna be great coming back to these threads in 2 or so years.

 

[BD1]

lol

let's pretend that you're right though, and it's all about the games. Um, yeah, the Wii U is still in deep monumental sh*t

Wii U barely has any games right now. So wouldn't that prove his point?

 

[troushers]

I'm pretty sure most people will be able to see the difference in image quality (let alone feel better performance - there's a reason for CoDs success this generation).

COD. That game upscaled from 600p? That COD?

 

[SmokedMeat]

Which proves its not a fad. When was the last time there was a 10+ year fad.

Perhaps "craze" is the better word. Much like plastic music instruments interest for motion controls has diminished. I'm surprised that all three companies are still doing it, but I guess they want to over their asses.

 

[jmdajr]

One of my favorite articles

Visual Computing Still Decades from Computational Apex

According to the Nyquist theorem that debates the amount of information required to present the "good enough" result for a given resolution, game engines would need about 40 billion triangles per second to reach perfection at the 8000x4000 resolution. Currently, the fastest GPU for triangle processing can handle 2.8 billion per second and Sweeney claims we are only a factor of 50x from reaching that goal. That difference could likely be reached in another two generations of architecture which actually gives some credence to those that say the end is near.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

it's gonna be great coming back to these threads in 2 or so years.

I'm pretty sure the same argument was said about the Wii in the beginning. That graphics don't matter. It's all about gameplay. Welp, in the end the Wii suffered greatly due to it's inability to gain third party support thanks to it's weak hardware.

 

[KageMaru]

They still mean alot. Detailed environments, character models, normals maps all depend on having a high polycount.

The use of displacement maps next gen will be a sole result of having the power to render them.

I really don't think they mean a lot. IIRC Dead Rising had one of the highest poly counts in game this gen, but it's hardly the best looking game. Character models and detailed environments also don't have to rely on high poly counts either. I've lost count how many times I've seen a picture posted on GAF that was supposed to demonstrate a high amount of geometry when it really wasn't the case. Same for character models. Marcus in Gears 3 has more than twice the amount of polys than Marcus in Gears 1, but the model in Gears 3 isn't twice as detailed to the average individual.

Also poly counts matter most with normal maps when talking about the high poly mesh that is used to compose the normal map. One of the main purposes of normal maps is to create the illusion of a high poly model on a low poly mesh. So I'm not sure how high poly counts in game matter as much for normal maps.

IMO of all the aspects that make up the graphical scenes we view on the screen, poly counts makes up a relatively small part of the image, at least compared to how most people think it applies.

 

[netBuff]

COD. That game upscaled from 600p? That COD?

CoD looks pretty clean (with some amount of AA) and performs better than most console games: This seems like one of the reasons for its success. Better performance & clearer graphics are a winning combination - in both departments, many current generation titles are lacking.

 

[Baconsammy]

They should.

Why? That would be stupid. Lots of people love the dancing games. Tons of people buy the exercise games/programs. Why eliminate those just because gamers are too far up their own ass to comprehend that there are people out there who enjoy things they don't? Including the PS Eye, Kinect, Wiimotes doesn't force a dev to use them. We can have our controller-based games, and fans of motion gaming can have theirs.

 

[Beer Monkey]

And you are indicative of mainstream opinion how? Hilarious to imagine the average consumer notices rose bush hedges. Is this a parody post about ridiculous Neogaf PC elitism?

Dude, PS3 and 360 can't even do Lara Croft's hair physics, the PC takes up to a 40% hit in framerate when doing it, and that's just HAIR. On ONE CHARACTER. Virtually no game these days even does realistic cloth physics. Next gen can be far more immersive because of physics alone.

And no, you don't have to be some elitist to notice that this looks like crap:

 

[netBuff]

Why? That would be stupid. Lots of people love the dancing games. Tons of people buy the exercise games/programs. Why eliminate those just because gamers are too far up their own ass to comprehend that there are people out there who enjoy things they don't? Including the PS Eye, Kinect, Wiimotes doesn't force a dev to use them. We can have our controller-based games, and fans of motion gaming can have theirs.

Obviously everyone's preferences are different, but it doesn't seem all that surprising to see more opposition to motion gaming on a more core oriented forum like GAF

 

[AstroNut325]

One of my favorite articles

Visual Computing Still Decades from Computational Apex

5 Petaflops??? We better be driving a holodeck with those specs!

 

[RedSwirl]

Dude, PS3 and 360 can't even do Lara Croft's hair physics, the PC takes up to a 40% hit in framerate when doing it, and that's just HAIR. On ONE CHARACTER. Virtually no game these days even does realistic cloth physics. Next gen can be far more immersive because of physics alone.

And no, you don't have to be some elitist to not notice that this looks like crap:

The average console gamer does not give a shit about that kind of difference.

 

[netBuff]

The average console gamer does not give a shit about that kind of difference.

I think the average console games does give a shit about better image quality. Graphics are frequently an important selling point.

 

[Syphon Filter]

The average console gamer does not give a shit about that kind of difference.

why settle for less.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

The average console gamer does not give a shit about that kind of difference.

You would be so wrong. They care because in order for them to justify spending $300+ on new hardware there has to be a reason that is more than just a new input method. Fact is that the 360/PS3 could barely handle BF3, Bioshock Inifinite, and more. The games look like crap on these consoles. The games we saw on PS4 look NIGHT and DAY from PS3. There is a reason why the Playstation 4 reveal video on youtube has like 6000000+ views.

Nintendo expected the Wii U gamepad to be the difference maker as the Wiimote was last gen. It isn't. While I enjoy it and find off TV play great, it's not selling hardware. Know what sells hardware? Graphics that blow people away with games to show off said graphics. Wii U doesn't have it and won't have it.

 

[AstroNut325]

The average console gamer does not give a shit about that kind of difference.

The average gamer doesn't care about dynamic lighting, bump mapping, normal mapping, unified shaders, ect...

In fact... they don't care about anything except price. So Ouya is the next gen winner.

 

[Schnozberry]

You would be so wrong. They care because in order for them to justify spending $300+ on new hardware there has to be a reason that is more than just a new input method. Fact is that the 360/PS3 could barely handle BF3, Bioshock Inifinite, and more. The games look like crap on these consoles. The games we saw on PS4 look NIGHT and DAY from PS3. There is a reason why the Playstation 4 reveal video on youtube has like 6000000+ views.

Nintendo expected the Wii U gamepad to be the difference maker as the Wiimote was last gen. It isn't. While I enjoy it and find off TV play great, it's not selling hardware. Know what sells hardware? Graphics that blow people away with games to show off said graphics. Wii U doesn't have it and won't have it.

That might be true for people who think like you (Gaffers), but if you take a walk back through previous console generations that doesn't really pan out in terms of dollars and cents. Since we don't have time travel machines, that's the only data we have to work with. It's more accurate to say that graphics entice early adopters, but it doesn't necessarily speak to the success or failure of a platform overall.

Also, I wouldn't necessarily say the Wii U won't have games with great graphics. We have yet to see what people can really deliver on the system, since Nintendo pooched the launch and didn't have full power dev kits or SDK's released until very close to when launch software had gone gold.

 

[JordanN]

I really don't think they mean a lot. IIRC Dead Rising had one of the highest poly counts in game this gen, but it's hardly the best looking game. Character models and detailed environments also don't have to rely on high poly counts either. I've lost count how many times I've seen a picture posted on GAF that was supposed to demonstrate a high amount of geometry when it really wasn't the case. Same for character models. Marcus in Gears 3 has more than twice the amount of polys than Marcus in Gears 1, but the model in Gears 3 isn't twice as detailed to the average individual.

Dead Rising is going for scale though. Want an example, compare it to the Wii version where Zombie count is mostly diminished.

Any game that target realisms depends on high poly characters or environments. Fight Night's boxer's wouldn't be the same if they featured club hands because there was not enough polys to represent boxing gloves. It's also the same deal with car damage.


As for Marcus, well that's within a generation. If the leap was bigger, the visuals would follow close behind it.

Also poly counts matter most with normal maps when talking about the high poly mesh that is used to compose the normal map. One of the main purposes of normal maps is to create the illusion of a high poly model on a low poly mesh. So I'm not sure how high poly counts in game matter as much for normal maps.

IMO of all the aspects that make up the graphical scenes we view on the screen, poly counts makes up a relatively small part of the image, at least compared to how most people think it applies.

Actually, I got normal maps mixed up with displacement maps. You need a high polycount for them to work.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

That might be true for people who think like you (Gaffers), but if you take a walk back through previous console generations that doesn't really pan out in terms of dollars and cents. Since we don't have time travel machines, that's the only data we have to work with. It's more accurate to say that graphics entice early adopters, but it doesn't necessarily speak to the success or failure of a platform overall.

Also, I wouldn't necessarily say the Wii U won't have games with great graphics. We have yet to see what people can really deliver on the system, since Nintendo pooched the launch and didn't have full power dev kits or SDK's released until very close to when launch software had gone gold.

Wii U will have Nintendo games that make great use of the hardware. Great artstyle for Mario and Zelda. But there won't be a BF4, a GTA 6, an Uncharted type of game on the Wii U. There just won't be. A game that is head and shoulders above the competition.

Also, early adopters are key to a platform success. Look at the Wii U, it is doing terrible with early adopters which has contributed to publishers withholding support which can lead to a vicious cycle of even less support going forward.