Pyrrhus
Member
Shame about those hard, fake, porn star-looking boobs, though.
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Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer
- Thread starter Takao
- Start date
Shame about those hard, fake, porn star-looking boobs, though.
Yeah, totally brah! High five! That's not a straw man argument in the least! How come all these Debbie-downers want to talk about how women are portrayed in art? Only non-prudes are allowed in this thread.
Oh wow, thanks for posting these. They're all FANTASTIC!
Here is the difference between sorceress and any of the DOA girls.
This is called exaggeration. Her boobs are impractically huge, and those sizes are not only rare in real life but even rarer that they'd be found on a body like that, with a head to leg ratio that is also all but impossible.
This is called pandering. Her boobs are large, but not to the point of impossibility. She is also specifically designed and fine tuned to resemble a real woman. The objective here is to create an idealized female body.
The latter is "degrading" or "objectifying" or however you want to describe it because it is actually encouraging an unjust standard men want to see in real women. The former is more or less harmless, because no one in their right mind actually thinks women should all have the sorceress' proportions, fringe fetishists aside.
Even the fan porn that's out there for her character has more realistic proportions, this should tell you all you need to know.
This is called exaggeration. Her boobs are impractically huge, and those sizes are not only rare in real life but even rarer that they'd be found on a body like that, with a head to leg ratio that is also all but impossible.
This is called pandering. Her boobs are large, but not to the point of impossibility. She is also specifically designed and fine tuned to resemble a real woman. The objective here is to create an idealized female body.
The latter is "degrading" or "objectifying" or however you want to describe it because it is actually encouraging an unjust standard men want to see in real women. The former is more or less harmless, because no one in their right mind actually thinks women should all have the sorceress' proportions, fringe fetishists aside.
Even the fan porn that's out there for her character has more realistic proportions, this should tell you all you need to know.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Gonna be honest, my eyes have rarely gravitated in that direction long enough to notice.
Yeah, that's a really interesting piece.
Karsticles
Member
If you're upset that society pressures women to be one way (large breasted, thin), then shouldn't you praise this game for accommodating three radically different female body types? I've never seen a game with so much splendor for the female muscular form. The fact is that there are real women with all of these body types (yes, even the Sorceress), and while you consider it "degrading to women" to have the Sorceress in this game, I consider it misogynistic to insinuate that women who look like the Sorceress are offensive.
.... Really? You twist words sometimes.... I make an overall example, you make it about one character. I point out a difference between a corporate entity vs an individual, you make it as if I'm talking about 2 indviduals.
Are you just trying to make this hard...?
And, for the record, most of my conversation hasn't even BEEN about the SIZE of her breasts, but the animation. So, enough with that twist.
I find it funny how we agree on the "there's more to the art here than just one girl's looks!" and yet all you keep bringing up are situations thrown too far out of context.
To be clear, the sorceress is a hot (if absurd) design, and I don't mean to suggest that you, yourself, are degrading women if you like the design. You can like an aesthetic quality (in this case the character's bust) and still be perfectly able to appreciate real people who don't have those qualities. In other words, someone can like something aesthetically but still appreciate people without those aesthetic qualities. This goes without saying.
All I'm saying, is for me personally, it's difficult to play something that feels like it would make -women- feel degraded. Like I said, I've known many a woman who received breast implants out of some psychological torment stemming from the message stuff like this constantly sends to women. Knowing this makes a character design like the sorceress feel hollow to me... And I'm just saying it's a bummer that it's the one barrier to me appreciating this game, because it otherwise looks excellent.
All I'm saying, is for me personally, it's difficult to play something that feels like it would make -women- feel degraded. Like I said, I've known many a woman who received breast implants out of some psychological torment stemming from the message stuff like this constantly sends to women. Knowing this makes a character design like the sorceress feel hollow to me... And I'm just saying it's a bummer that it's the one barrier to me appreciating this game, because it otherwise looks excellent.
SolidSnakex
Member
It's amazing how defensive people become when their sexually pandering virtual character is called out for its sexual pandering.
It's pretty simple: The game looks amazing, but the presence of the gratuitous T&A unfortunately drags the experience down. Some people have a problem with it and some don't. It's entirely acceptable that some people aren't okay with sexually pandering characters in their video games, so I don't see any justified motivation for name-calling and over-defensiveness.
It's pretty simple: The game looks amazing, but the presence of the gratuitous T&A unfortunately drags the experience down. Some people have a problem with it and some don't. It's entirely acceptable that some people aren't okay with sexually pandering characters in their video games, so I don't see any justified motivation for name-calling and over-defensiveness.
That's a fusion of Hitomi Tanaka (NFSW) + Christina Hendricks.
I love boobs, they are the meaning of life. As such, when I pick up Vita in the future, I'd definitely get this.
EDIT: Just to avoid misunderstanding, I am not buying this game just for boobs or rather the outrageous proportions will not dissuade me from buying the game if its a good product overall.
I never said that?
And it's not controversial all of a sudden. A lot of us have had issues with this stuff forever.
Anyways, people are obviously free to make and enjoy whatever they like. That doesn't mean there's no place for criticism or that people can't express a conflicting opinion.
David Lo Pan
Banned
I was thinking the same thing, lol.
This looks amazing. The gameplay looks like it'll be really diverse with lots of skills and abilities for each character. Between this and both D & D games, I'll be set for some time with beat em ups.
I don't know how to say this properly, but this game features three different forms of the female body, albeit extremely stylized versions of them, all of them equal. How is this game saying 'women need large breasts'?
Karsticles
Member
What about the poor women who get breast reductions because society makes them feel like they're "absurd" looking?
I get where you're coming from, and I absolutely loathe breast implants. I just do not think the solution is in shaming a kind of body type out of media representation.
Goddamn, it looks like that all combos. Depending on how flexible the combat system is, we might see some really fun combo videos come out of this game. It's pretty rare that a spellcaster is given the ability to do all of that so fast. The usual mantra is "casting takes time", and you're this frail caster who has to find room to breathe and throw your spells out. This looks more enjoyable.
Yes, I'm sure women who are psychologically tortured into getting breast implants do it because of a Japanese beat-em-up. It sucks you can't enjoy the game for such a silly reason. You have to understand that some women actually have massive breasts(you can pretty much tell by the animation of the sorceress that her giant breasts are indeed real and not some sort of fake implant). Is it not a good thing that some media can portray them as kicking ass rather than being sex objects? It's not a sex game, it's a fantasy fighting game. All of the characters are appealing in their own way. The mage is a feminine, classy-looking guy. I'd love to look like him but I'm not going to get plastic surgery because of it.
Pinko Marx
Banned
There should be a male character with testicles so large that his crotchplate is literally just two large orbs.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
What do you feel about Haly's assessment?
I hope that works both ways.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I wonder how many pages the Amazon trailer will generate.
Knux-Future
Banned
It's a goddam videogame. It's not that serious. Hell it's game in which there are killer mushroom men and our said big titty sorceress can jump and fly around summon skeletons and is a goddam sorceress.
Not everything has to be a ism or ist. It was simply an artistic choice. One that the artist had made. Countless times.
Geezus
Not everything has to be a ism or ist. It was simply an artistic choice. One that the artist had made. Countless times.
Geezus
sorry, but showing up to a thread about a vanillaware game and complaining about the female character designs is just ridiculous.
It's very rare that a woman will naturally have the massive bust/hourglass waist combo... and even rarer that one who is born such a way would ever feel pressured by society to change it. That's because our male-dominated society constantly sends the false message that this is something of extreme importance.
What's more common is for a woman to not have proportions like the sorceress, and yet the sorceress promotes the idea that this is absolutely what men want from women. Hence we have a scenario where plastic surgery and breast implants are becoming commonplace to the point that half of my office has them.
I do appreciate that this game has a variety of female body types represented, and again, I'm NOT saying that you or anyone who likes the game (and this design) is degrading people. I trust you're all good people. I'm just saying, an unfortunate consequence of this game is the message it sends to women, even if it's not the message you or I would want to send.
I'd also like to add, the feminist threads annoy me, more often than not, so I'm hardly being "one of those people." I just see this character design, in particular, as emblematic of a hurtful trend in female depictions. And it's a shame because she looks REALLY fun to play, and the game itself looks amazing.
I may still wind up getting it, and playing it, and sharing it with others, but this design puts it lower on my priority list. I have no problem with people who can't wait to play it. I just hope this dialogue doesn't fall on deaf ears.
Tummi Gummi
Member
^ this.
If someone doesn't like sexy art or find it off-putting enough to avoid the game, they can knock themselves out. I avoid plenty of stuff for similar reasons. That's not what's happening in this thread. It's people "calling out" (ugh) the art because they're upset by other people's standards of attractiveness and their being pandered to by VW.
You don't live in a society dominated by women where you're constantly fed a message to look that way. Women have it much rougher than men in this regard.
depths20XX
Member
I'll be picking this up because the gameplay looks good. The character design I could take or leave but it doesn't really bother me enough to not play it.
I am kind of curious as to why a character like Bayonetta is considered a strong woman in charge of her sexuality where as a sorceress with huge tits is just offensive?
I am kind of curious as to why a character like Bayonetta is considered a strong woman in charge of her sexuality where as a sorceress with huge tits is just offensive?
Why don't people get that some girls actually have massive boobs? You're basically saying that because of a lady's natural physical appearance, they shouldn't be allowed to be a video game hero? That's pretty disgusting. Video games should be all-inclusive. It's like saying they shouldn't have any black characters in games because YOU see their portrayal as racist. You see this woman as a sex object where as most people see her as a sorceress.
toastyToast
Member
Amazon is demeaning to women without chiselled squat booties
I won't deny that our culture is far from being gender neutral, but this sort of imagery/art style is not something that is widespread and available to the mainstream. It's pretty much niche and obscure. I would even argue that the discussion that this game always seems to attract is a sign that people are much more aware of the objectification of women and its pernicious effects and openly discuss it whenever they feel it's apt. In my opinion though this is just a caricature of a Women, not even an archetypical ideal women, it's a ridiculous over-exaggeration of physical traits that men find attractive on women to the point it becomes hilarious and innocuous. One of my favorite bands from the 90s, Silverfish had a vocalist feminist frontwoman that sang at full lungs "Hips, Tits, Lips, Power" in one of their songs chorus. She wasn't advocating the objectification of the women, just acknowledging the great power that women have over men (that were depicted as pigs and tools in the official music video).
Of course they do, but aren't we aiming for equality? If you give women special treatment by saying they are not allowed to be portrayed in a sexual light, but men are allowed to be portrayed that way, you're doing more harm than good.
I hope I don't have to explain that the reason there isn't a male equivalent of Sorceress (buff naked guy with a leather thong and a huge crotch bulge) is because Kamitani is a pervert who loves women and because their target audience are males.
You shouldn't have to explain that, but some people need more help than others.
The "some girls are naturally busty with an hourglass waist" argument is silly. Those women don't have it hard; they have what every woman is conditioned by a male-dominated society to want.
I can appreciate this viewpoint, as a man, but girls can have a skewed view of themselves, and the "caricature" aspect might be lost on them, with this and other depictions.
Some. Some men. Just like some men will prefer the build of the Amazon, or the build of the Archer. All three of the characters are designed to be attractive (in extremely stylized ways). But only the Sorceress seems to create controversy? Why is that?
I just don't understand, I guess.
Karsticles
Member
Keep in mind that all three of these characters are something rarely seen in society.
Where do you live?
I don't disagree that women are pressured to have large breasts. That's not the issue. The issue is whether we should actively shame media representations of women with large breasts to make up for that. To me, that's a "two wrongs make a right" kind of argument, because for every 10-20 people in here talking about how disgusting the Sorceress art is, there's probably a woman with large breasts who is reading that. How do you think you are affecting that person?
Rather than shame media representations of large-breasted women, I would rather focus on ways to help women accept their body types. I think Kamitani is actually due for praise in this regard, because I have known a lot of women with "masculine" physiques, and that body type is almost never present in games outside of making fun of it. This isn't Senran Kagura or Queen's Blade, where every girl has big boobs. There's an actual diversity of body types represented here.
And I think you have the message wrong.
Why do you think I responded to you? I recognize your posts, and I know you're not one of those crusaders that have become common as of late. I figure you are worth responding to, since we might be able to reach an understanding (we share some common ground).
Personally, I have both my wife and my sister dying to play this game with me. We're going to get my sister's husband in on it, too. My wife and sister are fighting over who gets to play the elf, haha. They both tease me about how they know I'll want to play the Sorceress.
What about the women who are large-breasted without the hourglass waist? Who do you think they identify with most in this game?
Tummi Gummi
Member
Nobody is "feeding" this game to defenseless women. It's a consumer product aimed at a particular demographic with particular tastes. Your argument has so far been that it's wrong for the game to pander to that demographic because the opposite sex will inevitably adapt to whatever standards of attractiveness dominate, which is an absurdly broad and unreasonable limitation. Argue that the game could broaden its appeal if you like, but people are taking issue with your assertation that the game has a moral obligation to do so.
HAMMERTIME!
Point me to the hyper-abundance of character designs depicting men with massively exaggerated genitals. The worst it gets with male character designs is the chiseled musculature, which 1) is a power fantasy for men, hence every male-drawn superhero being built this way, and 2) is not diminishing to a man's self-esteem because you barely see media messages promoting this as of great importance to women.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
That's a valid enough motivation for your choice not to play this, but I still think you are judging the product more harshly than it deserves.
I agree the pressures women feel are ridiculous, but it's all over and for every body type.
If they are too heavy, they are pigs with no self control. I have actually heard someone say that they "hate fat girls because of what it says about their character." On the other side, if they are skinny, they aren't "real" women, because "real women have curves." They get shamed for naturally having a body type that happens to be more desirable in the current society.
I personally have never heard any size or shape of a man be referred to as a "real" man in an actual conversation. That alone tells me something about the world I live in.
Vulcan (the woman) has exaggerated sex characteristics, there's no doubt about this. But Onyx (the man) does too. those muscles and that bone structure? You can't get those without months in the gym and careful dieting, as well as a lucky roll in genetics.
Although sometimes I feel a little insecure because every single male protagonist in a game is a fucking model, I'm still able to brush it off and distance myself emotionally because I'm mature and intelligent.
Are you saying women can't do this as well? That they need you to step in to defend their self confidence for them? You're doing a disservice to women with this viewpoint. I agree on the whole female idealization is more rampant than the male counterpart, but this is mostly because the industry is dominated by straight men.
There are hot women and hot men in movies, and no one really bats an eye at that. But for some reason, when it comes to games, people will focus only on the women, and not give a shit or are completely blind to the fact that many of our most visible male protagonists are more or less on the level of underwear models.
How do you know that giant boobs are diminishing of self-esteem? How do you know my self-esteem isn't diminished looking at the pretty/strong males in gaming? How do you know how every gamer, non-gamer, and every person with an opinion on media portrayal feels the same way you do? They have every right to use whatever character archetypes they want to create interesting and vibrant characters and you have no right to judge how I or any other person feels on the subject. You do have a right to not play the game based on your opinions, though.
There are no men with giant penises in games because they don't show penises in media, usually. Do they show vaginas?
spandexmonkey
Banned
The real problem is why the male mage is dressed so conservatively. I love the exaggerated fantasy design, but his clothes are so plain he seems out of place.
They're unaffected, because nobody is saying big breasts are unattractive. We're just concerned with the feelings of people who aren't built that way.
I wasn't referring to you. I'm just establishing, in general, I'm NOT hopping on the feminist bandwagon. I just legitimately feel bad for women constantly seeing this stuff. Most women will never see this game, true, but it bothers me insofar as it's emblematic of a larger trend that I think causes a lot of problems for women's self-esteem.
That's great to hear. Sincerely.
No one, unfortunately. There are no "large" woman in this game.
Please do not act offended. I don't think anyone here is "immoral." Nor do I think this game is "immoral." I just think this sort of depiction doesn't take into account its adverse effects on others. That's all. I'm just speaking for myself and why it bothers me. It bothers me because it's the sort of depiction I've known to hurt the feelings of women I've known in real life.Tummi Gummi said: