The sum of the pain they incur on other people is in my experience far greater than what most of them are feeling. The problem with these assumptions is that people who commit suicide are truly in excruciating pain, but that's not always true. There are many reasons people commit suicide but it's rarely that they're in excruciating pain. That's just the ideal case we like to toss around.
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Suicide is Selfish
- Thread starter Devolution
- Start date
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The sum of the pain they incur on other people is in my experience far greater than what most of them are feeling. The problem with these assumptions is that people who commit suicide are truly in excruciating pain, but that's not always true. There are many reasons people commit suicide but it's rarely that they're in excruciating pain. That's just the ideal case we like to toss around.
My parents still struggle with it weekly. Years later, my mother still can't host holidays at her place. She breaks down on the phone talking to me very often...
Yeah, it's not like those loving ones can't be turned into those suffering through those actions, creating a cycle of pain and depression.
Is it time to bring this one into the round?
Suicide can have lot's of reasons, let's not make it seem like all suicides originate from depression. Your words also seem to suggest that there is no cure, let's not act as if the final stop for anyone suffering.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
There is no cure. If there were, people would not kill themselves.
Also, don't strip context. You brought up a hypothetical situation regarding depression. I responded about depression.
Darkmakaimura
Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
Not sure why you're mentioning putting blame on anyone.
But yeah, hitting pillows and wallowing all or most of your life? Do you honestly that's going to help or anything else for that matter for some people?
But.. it did hit me...
After looking at everyone else for years, and realizing I'm not that different, I started looking for a solution to my problems. Becoming unsuicidal is incredible work, and that huge ass post is a small drop in the bucket for the past year and a half of what I had to learn and apply and perfect. If you dissect that, that's a TON of things to work through.
But in the grand scheme of things, once I stopped fighting myself, and I didn't give myself a hard time limit, things progressed swiftly.
Boundaries
Nutrition
Supplements instead of drugs for chemical imbalances
Curbing booze
Preventing resentment
Standing up for myself
Patience
Forgiveness
Personal forgiveness
Acceptance of who I am
Pounding pillows
Screaming
Crying
Acceptance of where I'm at
Saving money
Working a shit job until I found a better job with nicer people
Goals
Better sleep
Dropping crappy people
That's.. a lot, wouldn't you say?
But it all started with saying to myself, no more. I will not live like this anymore, and I will take control of my life.
Its not simple. But nothing clicked until I was ready to LET it click. Once it DID click, once I was ready to stop mentally abusing myself, I was easily able to put this all in motion. It may sound like bootstraps bullshit but its not. Its applied work a metric ton of it, but none of it would have happened until I was ready to stop hating myself. I had to say no more, and stop hating myself first. I had to be ready for help and positive things. I had to want to get better. And not just a little, but right up until the time I sent a suicide text to an ex, and she and all my old friends rang me frightened to death.
Despite that brief feeling of "we care", they were frightened to be around me until I took all thhese steps to get better.
Oh and lest you think I'm full of shit, I bought a ton of the most highly rated books on family dysfunction and all the topics that affected me, applied what I needed for me and just did it. I had all this stuff for a long time and read most of it years ago, but it wasn't until later that I could identify the problems and make changes. I'm not simplifying suicide, it wouldn't have taken me this long to undo the desperation if it was easy. But it starts with really wanting to get better and getting in touch with what you feel, what you want, and what you can change.
You know, you're right. My experience is pretty useless to you in the grand scheme of things. I'll stop posting in these topics. Your situations are hopeless (in your eyes) any way, why should I bother? If you don't give a shit, the fuck do I care?
That's what you want to hear isn't it?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I'm glad you're out of it. However, what works for you doesn't work for everyone, and talking down to others about how they have not succeeded like you (which is how a depressed person may perceive your words) is not a persuasive strategy.
I'm going to quote myself a second time for those who still don't get it:
You cannot generalize based on your own emotional experience. Things go way lower than you (or I) could ever imagine.
You cannot generalize based on your own emotional experience. Things go way lower than you (or I) could ever imagine.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I wonder how many of you are considering the consequences to depression that aren't suicide.
If you are suggesting that people shouldn't do that because of their families, are you then suggesting it is preferable for them to remain undiagnosed and unmedicated depending on their income and resource availability? Do you think they should continue to be unable to secure and stick with a job? Should they become homeless? Should they sit alone in their room for days at a time in order to make others happy? Is this better for the sufferer and the families?
I feel like so many of you are treating it as a universally temporary situation rather than understanding just how permanent and debilitating it can be for the sufferer. It can be a lifetime of struggle.
If you are suggesting that people shouldn't do that because of their families, are you then suggesting it is preferable for them to remain undiagnosed and unmedicated depending on their income and resource availability? Do you think they should continue to be unable to secure and stick with a job? Should they become homeless? Should they sit alone in their room for days at a time in order to make others happy? Is this better for the sufferer and the families?
I feel like so many of you are treating it as a universally temporary situation rather than understanding just how permanent and debilitating it can be for the sufferer. It can be a lifetime of struggle.
You are a great adult.
What is Fantasmo supposed to do? Did you read the responses to his case? Most are disregarding, even ridiculing his case of just being depressed, not having real depression. How very adult. Writing s long text, just to recieve such bs, I would do the very same.
Devolution
Member
He's supposed to understand that his experience isn't universal?
Because they don't know what's going on in my mind, they don't know if I'll ever be happy, and if my problems can be solved. It's not their call to make, but mine alone.
I take it you didn't read the post I quoted, nor the part where I said I'd turn their argument around and use the same things they said but from the suicidal person's point of view.
You who think that suicide is selfish is in fact, and paradoxically, selfish. Since when should a person live for someone else just because you will be sad for a period of time if the person commit suicide, while depression can last a lifetime?
The ONLY time when it is selfish is when kids is involved since then you have a commitment you need to follow to the end.
The ONLY time when it is selfish is when kids is involved since then you have a commitment you need to follow to the end.
Then you haven't had much experience in the matter. I'd like to see the study from where you're taking that people who commmited suicide due to excruciating pain are the minority, unless you're making baseless assumptions.
True that! Yet it shouldn't be disregarded too.
I have and I still don't agree with you. The suicide I experienced was particularly spiteful too.
Bingo.
Who the hell said depression was curable? What a stupid thing to say. Anyway, I can't stand when people criticize suicide. It's usually coming from someone who hasn't experienced deep depression or anxiety issues or loneliness. Speaking as someone who has experienced all those things, and still does, I find comments like that ignorant. The depression kinda just puts you into a different mindset.
I could see though if you had kids or something like that. At least you'd have something to live for. But those people don't have to answer to me. I know now that I won't commit suicide since I have a wife now and if I did kill myself I would be letting her down and probably causing her to kill herself.
I could see though if you had kids or something like that. At least you'd have something to live for. But those people don't have to answer to me. I know now that I won't commit suicide since I have a wife now and if I did kill myself I would be letting her down and probably causing her to kill herself.
encephalon
Member
I think you misunderstood my post. I meant the attitude that "why did you kill yourself without thinking about others that want you around" is selfish.
Chaplain
Member
Can you please explain.
CornBurrito
Member
Even if suicide is selfish, why the fuck is it so horribly criticized for being so? Other selfish behaviors are not nearly as criticized or reviled, such as not getting a flu vaccine.
And even if it is cowardly, it doesn't seem has reviled as other acts of cowardice.
I'm not get why people are so disgusted by the idea of suicide that they feel a need to insult those that express a desire to take their own life.
Ok lets say suicide is selfish to a degree. Is it not also selfish to demand that someone live and suffer for your sake? Seriously, fuck that. Nobody should be forced to live in suffering for the sake of another.
And even if it is cowardly, it doesn't seem has reviled as other acts of cowardice.
I'm not get why people are so disgusted by the idea of suicide that they feel a need to insult those that express a desire to take their own life.
Ok lets say suicide is selfish to a degree. Is it not also selfish to demand that someone live and suffer for your sake? Seriously, fuck that. Nobody should be forced to live in suffering for the sake of another.
Out of Working Order
Member
I've been depressed and thinking about suicide for a few years now.
The only thing that keeps me going is my parents and brother. I often think, 'how would I feel if one of them left the rest of us alone to live the rest of our lives without them'? I feel painfully sad by the thought. So I push the thoughts of suicide away.
I would like to think they wouldn't think me selfish if I ever succumbed. I am only here now because of my love for them.
The only thing that keeps me going is my parents and brother. I often think, 'how would I feel if one of them left the rest of us alone to live the rest of our lives without them'? I feel painfully sad by the thought. So I push the thoughts of suicide away.
I would like to think they wouldn't think me selfish if I ever succumbed. I am only here now because of my love for them.
Devolution
Member
You should get some help though, that's definitely depression talking. While living for others is your choice as well, you should be also living for your own sake.
Out of Working Order
Member
I am working on this at the moment by setting myself goals and finding enjoyment in hobbies.
This keeps me busy whilst I want to be around for my family.
I have only sympathy for people who commit suicide. It's HARD to deal with and it's heartbreaking when people end up taking their own lives. It really annoys me when people say it's selfish because suicide is the result of many factors. When I went through suicide and depression I was a completely different and mentally fucked up person. It was extremely hard to get out of it and I constantly felt completely alone. There are many that deal with it that don't have the mental strength or support to get out of it. Not to mention it's a very long process to go from being severely depressed to otherwise. It's different for each person and if you're not in a person's shoes you can never know how far they are from a stable mental state. No matter how much you think you know about their life or what they're going through you never really know all of it. People's minds work in different ways and finding ways to help someone going through suicide isn't ever simple.
oneils
Member
Medication and therapy is not a cure for depression. It is only treatment.
IHaveCandy
Banned
What do you guys think of those that commit suicide to avoid something? What about a newly bankrupt Wall Street broker killing himself to avoid his debt, leaving the bills for others?
oneils
Member
I doubt that they are actually killing themselves because of the debt. Most likely they kill themselves due to shame.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
There is no 100% right or wrong answer for stuff like this.
What is wrong however is to talk in absolutes while blanketing all cases of suicides as one and the same, and this applies to both sides of the debate.
What is wrong however is to talk in absolutes while blanketing all cases of suicides as one and the same, and this applies to both sides of the debate.
oneils
Member
Until my recent drive-by posts (I admit it, that is kind of what they were), I was avoiding this thread. There are quite a few people that are uninformed when it comes to mental illness, especially depression. Sometimes my patience wears thin because it seems like there are quite a few who are not even interested in learning more about mental illness.
I think a lot of it is due to the fact that people confuse depressed mood with clinical depression.
Even then, it doesn't matter too much what someone may be suffering from. Most of us cannot diagnose or treat friends who suffer from mental illness.
But, we can help in a small way. Here are some tips if you ever want to help a friend suffering from a mental illness and who discusses suicidal thoughts with you.
What you might hear and see can differ in severity.
It can start with:
Things you should not say or do if your friend tells you any of these things.
The idea is to help them feel loved and worthy of your love.
I think a lot of it is due to the fact that people confuse depressed mood with clinical depression.
Even then, it doesn't matter too much what someone may be suffering from. Most of us cannot diagnose or treat friends who suffer from mental illness.
But, we can help in a small way. Here are some tips if you ever want to help a friend suffering from a mental illness and who discusses suicidal thoughts with you.
What you might hear and see can differ in severity.
It can start with:
- I wish I were dead.
- It would be so much easier if I were dead.
- Nobody likes me, I might as well just be dead.
- I'm worthless, I should be dead.
- I love you no matter what.
- If you can't say the "l" word, maybe you can say: I feel for you dudebro.
- I'm here to listen if you ever need me.
- You mean so much to me.
- Spend time with them.
- Listen to them (don't judge).
- Invite them to gatherings that you happen to be going to (don't pressure or apply guilt).
- I want to die.
- Please kill me.
- I should just kill myself.
- Have you talked about this with anyone?
- Do you know how much I love you? And how much you mean to me?
- Will you talk to a therapist about this? I can help if you like.
- Discuss with their family (be cautious).
- Consult a professional for advice on how to cope.
- Refer your friend to a mental health professional (again, don't apply guilt).
- I've made a plan to end it all.
- When I die, I want you to take care of my pets for me. Please?
- I know when and how it will end.
- Please tell me that you won't hate me when I kill myself.
Things you should not say or do if your friend tells you any of these things.
- Do not say "that's a terrible thought! How could you think that!?"
- Do not say "That is really selfish of you."
- Do not say "Snap out of it!"
- Do not say "You just need to get outside of your head."
- Do not say "Its all in your head."
- Do not say "everyone feels like this sometimes."
The idea is to help them feel loved and worthy of your love.
PaperFlame
Member
Depression is when feelings of intense sadness. You feel hopeless and worthless and it can last for days to weeks or years. You can't function normally when you're depressed.
There's many degrees in depression, like manic depression, major depression, seasonal affective disorder..etc
And don't forget that everyone feels depression differently.
When I say it's curable, I really meant that it's treatable to the point that you won't kill yourself. And that it's not you that's really thinking this, it's the depression that's making you feel this way because humans are program to survive.
When you're depressed you are not thinking rationally. You're thinking irrationally and not clearly because you're sad and you want the pain to stop.
Or maybe it's because you feel like you're worthless and you don't deserve to live.
Or maybe it's because you believe your family will live a better life without.
There's many reasons why people kill themselves and it's basically because the situation you are in, is shitty. Or it's genetic and you feel shitty and you have no reason why you feel shitty.
But, that doesn't mean you should kill yourself because life will get better if you have the determination to make it better; however, that's easier said than done because there's many reasons why that can't happen. Like how depression makes it impossible for you to have hope and determination. And even if you do have determination to fix your life, doesn't mean your life will get better because life isn't fair.
Some people have better lives than others, but what you can do is make the best out of your life.
My grammar sucks, I'm sorry if you can't read that.
ChimpBottle
Member
It is selfish. You're putting yourself before others. That's what selfishness is. It's not debatable.
Whether your selfishness is justifiable is another matter
Whether your selfishness is justifiable is another matter
I've read stories on the news of parent(s) committing suicide leaving their young kids behind. There's no way that kind of stuff isn't selfish and irresponsible.
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many places
Member
It seems it is really hard for people to truly understand what mental illness is like unless you are dealing with it personally. It really sucks that people can't see illness of the mind as the same as physical illnesses. I hate how there is still the stigma with mental illness, like we can just snap out of it and think differently. I'm sure those of us with these kind of illnesses would do just about anything to help ourselves and "snap out of it."
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Oh bullshit, I specifically pointed out the part I had a problem with. I never once claimed he didn't have real depression. That still doesn't make his claim that all these people need to do is pull themselves up by the bootstraps and they'll be ok. This doesn't work and is insulting to those who are suffering from depression or need help in depression because then they just tell them to cheer up and get over it instead of getting them actual help. If you actually read this thread and especially read the comic that Liu Kang posted on the other page you would realize this but alas.
What about other illnesses? Do you call those people cowards and selfish also since they put themselves first? I'm positive you don't.
Like ChimpBottle said, if there are people who depend on you (financially / emotionally / etc) then it'd be selfish; and whether or not it's justifiable is another matter.
samus i am
Member
Suicide is painless, it brings on many changes....
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Again, do you do this for other diseases. It's a simple enough answer, don't dodge around it. I'm sure you don't so I can't see how it's ok for one but not the other.
metalslimer
Member
Even if it is selfish you shouldn't tell anyone that.
Being a sociopath is a disease, but just because you're a sociopath doesn't mean you're not being an asshole when you're being an asshole.
It's not a condemnation of the person to state that the act of suicide is "concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself" (i.e. selfish). Because it is.
And I can take or leave it if I please.
I do actually, no dodging question here.
^ Post above explained what I was trying to say better perhaps. I don't have anything against people with depression.
way more
Member
What if your death will ease others burden?
ChimpBottle
Member
Then it's not selfish. It's selfish if it is an overall negative experience to those close to you (by definition). That's the situation I was referring to as that's the situation that's more controversial.
Of course there are exceptions. If you fall out of a helicopter and break your leg and slow flesh eating zombies are closing in on you and you have one bullet, do what you have to do. Nothing selfish about that
way more
Member
It's the exceptions that a depressed mind will latch on to. I haven't gone back many posts but we should understand it's a irrational mind we are talking about.
Let's take your zombie scenario a step further. After a fight you and four other survivors manage to retreat to a small bunker. You realize you have been bitten. Do you let yourself slowly decompose in front of them, threatening their survival each passing second, or do you stand up and do the right thing?
This is the mind of a depressed person. They create fantastic scenarios and romanticize irrational choices in order to make self-murder a good idea. It is what the courts would rule insanity. If you could some how take the dead to court they would be found "guilty but insane" for causing their own death.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm wary to say this is an acceptable reason, because despite the fact that it may in some way be objectively logical (if such a state even exists in human relations, which is debatable) if it's accurate, every single suicidal person I've known thought that other people would be better off without them in a "no-one will really miss me, not even my parents, all I do is hurt people" kind of way
I apologize for the long post, but when I hear people say suicide is selfish it pisses me off.
I think some people say suicide is selfish to try to make some sense or understand a situation that isnt rational. The suicidal people Ive met usually are not thinking clearly or thinking about the damage they may cause to their love ones. The suicidal people Ive met are good at hiding their feelings in public and putting on a smile even when they are suffering horribly inside. Once they get behind closed doors, it is another story. It is much easier to deflect blame and put the tragedy of suicide solely on the person who committed suicide. Rather than take some responsibility for not trying to get them help sooner or because you may be scared to talk to a loved one about their depression and telling them you are worried.
Usually there is a few warning signs and some people feel they should do something, but they dont know how or afraid to talk about mental issues. Some people make people with depression feel they have a weakness or defect, so talking about it is embarrassing or a sign they are weak willed. Depression is hard to explain, even professionals who have spent many years studying the disorder cant explain it fully or convey how depression feels to people who do not suffer with mental disorders.
I was married to someone who dealt with depression her whole life and she tried to commit suicide several times over her life, including once while we were married. I never really understood how she felt, because while I got down and sad at times, I never personally experienced depression. I thought trying to cheer her up, do nice things for her, tell her how much she meant to me and how beautiful she was, would snap her out of her depression. Sometimes it would work for a few weeks and other times she would get depressed a few minutes later, she could not explain what caused her to be depressed or what she was thinking about when it happened. I was never sure if she couldnt remember or if she was ashamed to tell me. One second she was doing great laughing and smiling, but the next moment she was depressed and could not explain why or what caused it. For me it was hard for me to understand this. When I was younger if was I down, a friend would take me out for drinks to meet some new ladies and the next day I normally felt much better outside of a hangover.
One night while I was at work, my wife tried to commit suicide by swallowing prescription pills. I came home to a note and an unresponsive wife, it was one of the most scariest and helpless times in my life. I rushed her to the hospital and thankfully everything was ok. She cussed me out at the hospital for saving her, saying things that crushed me inside and hurt me worse than anything else in my life had, but I had to take a step back and realize she was pushing me away, so she could finish what she started. At first I thought she was selfish and I wanted to blame her for everything, but I realized I had to share in some of the blame. I should have realized I was out of my element and tried to help her get over her depression by myself, but I should have got her professional help much sooner. Rather than trying to help her with the depression on my own, I should have asked for help.
She was forced to get help at the hospital, and I knew I wasnt qualified to help her any more with her depression by myself. I made sure she talked to a professional often and she tried to find a medication that worked for her. There is so many different medications and finding the right one can take months. She had to put in the work, but she knew I had her back and would do my best to catch her anytime she fell. Things got better over the years, but Im still clueless about why mental illness happens and how it works exactly. I leave it up to people who know more than me and are qualified to help people with mental illness. I just make sure a friend, family member or lady friend knows they have my full support and I will be there for them in whatever way they need me to be.
It would be easy for me to say someone is selfish if they try or commit suicide, but I think that is deflecting blame in hopes of making myself feel better for not realizing there was trouble. Mental illness is still a difficult subject for people to talk about in many places Ive lived in the US. Some view it as some type of weakness or defect, so some will try to hide it while they get sicker over time. In some places Ive lived, talking about mental illness is as taboo as someone saying they are gay.
I can only speak for myself and my experiences, the next person may have a different experience altogether, so I do not claim to speak for anyone else. What helped me, may or may not help anyone else. The best thing Ive found is when you feel there is a problem or you worry about someone you love, it is best to get them help instead of letting them go through things alone hoping they will snap out of it. Sometimes that isnt enough though. If people are determined to go through with it, not much you can do to stop it, but at least you tried to be there. Mental illness is tough to go through, even more so when you do it alone. Hopefully one day they will have a better understanding of depression and will find a system to recover from depression quickly and stop the endless suffering. Sorry if I upset anyone, I dont claim to be a professional or know about everyones suffering with depression, I just wanted to give an account of my experience of living with someone with severe depression and suicidal thoughts.
I think some people say suicide is selfish to try to make some sense or understand a situation that isnt rational. The suicidal people Ive met usually are not thinking clearly or thinking about the damage they may cause to their love ones. The suicidal people Ive met are good at hiding their feelings in public and putting on a smile even when they are suffering horribly inside. Once they get behind closed doors, it is another story. It is much easier to deflect blame and put the tragedy of suicide solely on the person who committed suicide. Rather than take some responsibility for not trying to get them help sooner or because you may be scared to talk to a loved one about their depression and telling them you are worried.
Usually there is a few warning signs and some people feel they should do something, but they dont know how or afraid to talk about mental issues. Some people make people with depression feel they have a weakness or defect, so talking about it is embarrassing or a sign they are weak willed. Depression is hard to explain, even professionals who have spent many years studying the disorder cant explain it fully or convey how depression feels to people who do not suffer with mental disorders.
I was married to someone who dealt with depression her whole life and she tried to commit suicide several times over her life, including once while we were married. I never really understood how she felt, because while I got down and sad at times, I never personally experienced depression. I thought trying to cheer her up, do nice things for her, tell her how much she meant to me and how beautiful she was, would snap her out of her depression. Sometimes it would work for a few weeks and other times she would get depressed a few minutes later, she could not explain what caused her to be depressed or what she was thinking about when it happened. I was never sure if she couldnt remember or if she was ashamed to tell me. One second she was doing great laughing and smiling, but the next moment she was depressed and could not explain why or what caused it. For me it was hard for me to understand this. When I was younger if was I down, a friend would take me out for drinks to meet some new ladies and the next day I normally felt much better outside of a hangover.
One night while I was at work, my wife tried to commit suicide by swallowing prescription pills. I came home to a note and an unresponsive wife, it was one of the most scariest and helpless times in my life. I rushed her to the hospital and thankfully everything was ok. She cussed me out at the hospital for saving her, saying things that crushed me inside and hurt me worse than anything else in my life had, but I had to take a step back and realize she was pushing me away, so she could finish what she started. At first I thought she was selfish and I wanted to blame her for everything, but I realized I had to share in some of the blame. I should have realized I was out of my element and tried to help her get over her depression by myself, but I should have got her professional help much sooner. Rather than trying to help her with the depression on my own, I should have asked for help.
She was forced to get help at the hospital, and I knew I wasnt qualified to help her any more with her depression by myself. I made sure she talked to a professional often and she tried to find a medication that worked for her. There is so many different medications and finding the right one can take months. She had to put in the work, but she knew I had her back and would do my best to catch her anytime she fell. Things got better over the years, but Im still clueless about why mental illness happens and how it works exactly. I leave it up to people who know more than me and are qualified to help people with mental illness. I just make sure a friend, family member or lady friend knows they have my full support and I will be there for them in whatever way they need me to be.
It would be easy for me to say someone is selfish if they try or commit suicide, but I think that is deflecting blame in hopes of making myself feel better for not realizing there was trouble. Mental illness is still a difficult subject for people to talk about in many places Ive lived in the US. Some view it as some type of weakness or defect, so some will try to hide it while they get sicker over time. In some places Ive lived, talking about mental illness is as taboo as someone saying they are gay.
I can only speak for myself and my experiences, the next person may have a different experience altogether, so I do not claim to speak for anyone else. What helped me, may or may not help anyone else. The best thing Ive found is when you feel there is a problem or you worry about someone you love, it is best to get them help instead of letting them go through things alone hoping they will snap out of it. Sometimes that isnt enough though. If people are determined to go through with it, not much you can do to stop it, but at least you tried to be there. Mental illness is tough to go through, even more so when you do it alone. Hopefully one day they will have a better understanding of depression and will find a system to recover from depression quickly and stop the endless suffering. Sorry if I upset anyone, I dont claim to be a professional or know about everyones suffering with depression, I just wanted to give an account of my experience of living with someone with severe depression and suicidal thoughts.
Sanctuary
Member
That isn't necessarily true. I won't argue that in many, or even possibly most cases that might be the correct assumption though.
I also haven't read every post yet, but I'm sure someone has brought up Japanese culture? Can't really claim that they were all just irrationals.
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