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CAVE restructured - No more dedicated divisions, but not quite dead yet
- Thread starter @MUWANdo
- Start date
SiegfriedFM
Member
I just ordered Akai Katana.
This is sad to hear. I've always wanted to get into shmups, but then I totally forgot about them when I sold my 360. I'll have to remember that Ketsui port and maybe see what's available on PS2.
Shmups are a weird thing, though, because most people don't seem to see the value in them, hence all the cries of "$15 XBLA/PSN/Steam". I don't know how much money CAVE put into these games, nor am I even sure that they're worth the same $60 as your standard AAA retail effort. I have spent that kind of money on Capcom fighters, though, which are similarly anemic in content. Fighters, however, came back in a big way, while shmups did not. Maybe this genre needs its "Street Fighter IV" to really boost its popularity. Too bad I can't think of any shmup series as well-known as Street Fighter is in the fighting world.
Shmups are a weird thing, though, because most people don't seem to see the value in them, hence all the cries of "$15 XBLA/PSN/Steam". I don't know how much money CAVE put into these games, nor am I even sure that they're worth the same $60 as your standard AAA retail effort. I have spent that kind of money on Capcom fighters, though, which are similarly anemic in content. Fighters, however, came back in a big way, while shmups did not. Maybe this genre needs its "Street Fighter IV" to really boost its popularity. Too bad I can't think of any shmup series as well-known as Street Fighter is in the fighting world.
Theonik
Member
The reason they went with 360 after PS2 rather than moving to PS3 was Sony's fault. They enforced limitations for PS3 software (namely that all PS3 games needed to be 16:9) that didn't make arcade ports on the PS3 feasible. After that the small subset of people that actually buys their games was already on board on the 360 anyway. And you are right that the scene isn't limited to PCB collectors, but demand for this sort of game is low to begin with and demand shown to be inelastic meaning that selling them cheaper would probably do fuck all to improve their revenues.
Refer to the above. As for iOS, it is true they achieved moderate success there but numbers were still not that great.
Again refer to the above. PS3 wasn't really an option.
Very sad to hear.
I have tried their games and enjoyed them but they were always too hard for me.
Decided to give the genre another try last week (after failing back on DC/PS2), this time trying to get decent at the easy difficulty first instead of sticking to default as before. Had hoped to move on to Cave games after I got better.
Hope the employees do okay and maybe form their own teams to make games.
I have tried their games and enjoyed them but they were always too hard for me.
Decided to give the genre another try last week (after failing back on DC/PS2), this time trying to get decent at the easy difficulty first instead of sticking to default as before. Had hoped to move on to Cave games after I got better.
Hope the employees do okay and maybe form their own teams to make games.
I wake up and THIS is what I have to greet me?! D:
It's...it's because I changed my PSN avatar from Neptunia's CAVE to Falcom isn't it? :'(
Geez, the ONE reason I went and made a JP 360 my ONLY 360 has finally laid to rest. This is like the initial SNK closure in my eyes, and.....man, when NCSX sends me that SDOJ Super LE....it's gonna be bittersweet. I brought all the CAVE published LEs (including Instant Brain), brought their iPhone games minus Maximum because my iPhone was obsolete. Was looking forward to their Vita input before that was axed.
A lot of coulda, shoulda, woulda, but at the end, they chose what they did because that's what THEY decided on and what would work for THEM. Maybe out of the ashes, a new company will be formed if the talent has been disbanded. All I can do is keep SHUMPing. Improve my skills in the games they DID release. Improve my scores. Check out the other players in the genre I sadly haven't been as diligent towards like Moss and G.Rev. Last gen made me realize how much this genre means to me. To not see it make it to the next would be pretty depressing.
Oh and as a bit of trivial or mind blowing gaming facts, CAVE DID work on this little title too, which would be their first international console release, no? A little rhythm/sim game for the DS; a taste of their less shooty side at least accessible outside Japan (those that can get past it's frilly nature of course
)
Be sure to try out the novice modes in the Cave games. They are a very nice way to ease people into the genre.
One of the problems the shoot 'em up genre went up against was that as the players got better, they demanded harder and harder games, which intimidated a lot of the more casual fans to the point where they alienated them completely.
My best friend used to love shoot 'em ups, but he doesn't even want to try the latest releases because of this.
I've tried to make him understand that the novice modes are just for that, but so far without any success.
How I feel right now
TaroYamada
Member
Bummer, I enjoyed their games on Saturn but nowadays I'm a PC exclusive gamer. I can't help but think that PC would have been a better choice than iOS for their shmups.
Unfortunate.
Unfortunate.
radios shipping overview
Member
I feel like fighters were revived as much by the community and the online competition as by whatever SFIV did (aside from existing as a reasonably straight-ahead fighter). That angle doesn't work as well with shooters, though, as head-to-head competition is always going to get more emotional investment than scoreboards.
Maybe going forward, shooter devs will take a minute to reevaluate their strategy of making games that are designed to slowly make their money back on a tiny audience of super-hardcore players in Japanese arcades.
I'm not saying shooters should become F2P iOS DLC nightmares, but more engagement with overseas fans and digital distro couldn't hurt.
Anybody have any idea what XBLA sales figures for Ikaruga and RSG were like?
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Get me some rope.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
The primary issue is that novice modes tend to make newcomers feel like second-class citizens. "Oh, you're not good enough to handle the actual game; play this watered down mode instead."
Jamestown worked because every player started at the Novice difficulty and had to learn and earn the right to play harder stuff. DDP MAX worked because Easy Mode actually has a unique final stage from the regular game that's just plain fun to play even for veteran players.
same with mushi futari mode selection, deathsmiles level select, etc
Probably why those games are the most popular overall.
Riposte
Member
Meh, you are second-class if you play novice modes. While it may be necessary, I can't say I'm enthused with the idea lying to the player to make him feel good. Too many bad games do that already.
Yeah played on default difficulty years back precisely because of the "second-class citizen" thing which didn't get me far and is why I eventually stopped.
This time going to give it another shot and start from the easiest setting, moving up when I feel comfortable. Already had some success with Darius Burst yesterday on psp (I have a really long daily commute) and was able to 1CC it on Easy. I know its nothing to brag about but it felt so good.
Wonko_C
Member
You guys talk as if Novice modes in Cave games were a walk in the park where enemies didn't fire at all. I finally 1CC Akai Katana (slash mode) after months, I've never had a shooting game that lasted me that long. I normally finish most shmups in 3 days, tops. (I play for survival, not score)
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
My point is that it's poisonous game design to bar players from the "true" game via Novice mode. Instead you can give players the ability to level up at their own pace (like Space Invaders Extreme does) or make the novice mode worthwhile to play in its own right (like MAX and to a certain extent SDOJ), among other possibilities.
Yeah, that's true.
But then the blame can be laid at the feet of the consumer as he just has to get over the fact that he needs to learn how to play these games.
I see no shame in playing Novice Mode when you are trying to get better at these games.
Not everyone can be Iconoclast and 1CC just about any mode in these games.
Had no idea that there was an extra final stage in Novice Mode of DDP Maximum...
Have to get back to it it seems. Don't think I've even tried out that mode as the iOS games seem to be a little too easy on anything but the hardest setting due to the controls.
Gonna feel weird getting Saidaioujou in the mail next week...
Speaking of which, I already have a lot of you on my FL, but I certainly can use more.
So if anyone feels up for some high score competition, please add me. meppi64
Just_myles
Member
Always thought they were live and psn games.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
Easier to say "just get over yourself" than it is for somebody to actually swallow their pride. As for the unique final stage in DDP MAX, you might find something worth your time and skill level if you attempt to access 5-E despite it being blocked off on the Novice stage select screen.Yeah, that's true.
But then the blame can be laid at the feet of the consumer as he just has to get over the fact that he needs to learn how to play these games.
I see no shame in playing Novice Mode when you are trying to get better at these games.
Not everyone can be Iconoclast and 1CC just about any mode in these games.
Had no idea that there was an extra final stage in Novice Mode of DDP Maximum...
Have to get back to it it seems. Don't think I've even tried out that mode as the iOS games seem to be a little too easy on anything but the hardest setting due to the controls.
Gonna feel weird getting Saidaioujou in the mail next week...
Speaking of which, I already have a lot of you on my FL, but I certainly can use more.
So if anyone feels up for some high score competition, please add me. meppi64
MightyHedgehog
Member
Crap. I'm not the biggest Cave fan (I actually preferred their pre-shooter/bullet hell days in the early-mid 90s), but I do love some of them even if I prefer classic focus of shooters before BH became their thing. Wish that MS/Ninty/Sony would get a brain and just prop them up to feed their platforms with shooters, grabbing whatever small group there is that cares.
A bit bitter sweet.
But I can't help but be very content with the sheer enormous amount of titles they popped out on the 360 and iOS over the last few years. The catalog (including the unreleased PCBs and PS2 titles) is robust to be a full legacy that will remain a signigficant portion of gaming history.
Plus, talent does not disappear. Should filter somewhere, even if in parts.
But I can't help but be very content with the sheer enormous amount of titles they popped out on the 360 and iOS over the last few years. The catalog (including the unreleased PCBs and PS2 titles) is robust to be a full legacy that will remain a signigficant portion of gaming history.
Plus, talent does not disappear. Should filter somewhere, even if in parts.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
I've bought every fucking iOS port, I never bought any of the 360 games because I don't own one... I was ready with every other console to import at crazy prices just o play their games... this is terrible news for me, I play Dodonpachi Resurrection every freaking day on my iPhone...
I should order Dodonpachi Saidaioujou even if I don't own a 360.
I should order Dodonpachi Saidaioujou even if I don't own a 360.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I wish they hadn't region locked Mushihimesama 360
You should get a 360, worth it for the shmups alone.
Seconding this. 360 is on the same level as Saturn when it comes to shmups.
.la1n
Member
This. Best place for shmups this generation no contest. iOS is also a treasure trove, Cave's games on that platform control exceptionally well.
ShinobiFist
Banned
This.
Hmm, I'm not really sure where I stand on the matter.
Most players will find novice modes boring, yes, but they're catered toward a very specific demographic. I wouldn't dismiss them entirely for not including unique stuff because that's not the reason for them in the first place.
On the other hand, I can see how some would consider novice modes pointless without the special content/angles you mention. Inexperienced players could simply credit feed their way to victory in a "real" mode if they didn't want to take things slow and learn how to play properly, especially since the novice modes in question do a relatively poor job encouraging such behavior. Instead, they seem more meant for easing stress or making players feel overpowered--I'm sure there's enough worth in that to justify their existence to some people, though.
depths20XX
Member
Sucks they are going away but I do feel like their newer releases haven't been as great as they used to be. Haven't played SDJ yet but it's on the way and seems to be decent.
At least they gave us a great library on 360 that we can play for years.
At least they gave us a great library on 360 that we can play for years.
Heart Attack
Member
I did my part. Own Akai Katana, Deathsmiles, and Guwange.
MaschinenZimmer
Banned
THIS!
360 was THE console for shmups this gen. I got my moneys worth with futari and galuda 2. Everything after that was just a huge plus. CAVE made the 360 a shooting nirvana, no matter the region.
I'm planning now to buy a J-Box so I can build a full CAVE-collection.
Also, I highly doubt Ikeda will start a new company. He isn't the youngest anymore and I'm sure he has a family to feed. Unless he is forced to leave, he will probably stay at CAVE and join Yagawa making Medal games. D:
Chance Hale
Member
I read it as the opposite way around at first and was excited :/ All the tears.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
I might buy Saidaioujou and just tell a friend to lend me his 360.
It's probably my favorite next to Futari on the list you wrote. <3
I haven't played Saidaioujou yet, though.
Sad news.
I'm a pretty casual player of these games, and have never 1CCed any of them. But I don't understand what's unacceptable about popping in a credit and getting as far as you can, on the normal mode. When you die, pop in another credit, and try again from the beginning. They're not exactly long games with boring portions.
Keep retrying, and you'll eventually get better and get a bit further every time. It's how arcade games work.
I'm a pretty casual player of these games, and have never 1CCed any of them. But I don't understand what's unacceptable about popping in a credit and getting as far as you can, on the normal mode. When you die, pop in another credit, and try again from the beginning. They're not exactly long games with boring portions.
Keep retrying, and you'll eventually get better and get a bit further every time. It's how arcade games work.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
The end of an era.
The sad truth is that these games don't have much of a market, regardless of where they're released or what they're priced at.
The sad truth is that these games don't have much of a market, regardless of where they're released or what they're priced at.
That's the truth, but they'd always seemed to be good about budgeting their releases for their known market (arcade + dudes willing to spend $60-80 on 360 ports), I'd always been under the impression that their work on iOS was unexpectedly profitable for them. I guess some key personnel leftor they just didn't have the capital they would have needed to move to a newer arcade platform and decided to fold that side instead.
huh.
I'm bummed but not stunned. I'd love to think that their arcade division still exists, but it's looking unlikely, so I shouldn't expect Nesica releases or whatever.
I could not possibly roll my eyes harder with all the "they would have done better had they" talk. It's not even that I think it's all wrong, it's just completely exhausted territory.
It's almost a relief to see that they didn't become a mobile-only or console-only developer. Being arcade games had a huge role in how these games were made and I'd hate to see a future where Cave was pumping out titles that I couldn't care about.
I'm bummed but not stunned. I'd love to think that their arcade division still exists, but it's looking unlikely, so I shouldn't expect Nesica releases or whatever.
I could not possibly roll my eyes harder with all the "they would have done better had they" talk. It's not even that I think it's all wrong, it's just completely exhausted territory.
It's almost a relief to see that they didn't become a mobile-only or console-only developer. Being arcade games had a huge role in how these games were made and I'd hate to see a future where Cave was pumping out titles that I couldn't care about.
Sorry, but the era is not actually over yet. Someone pointed out to me that the article doesn't actually say that this is happening now. This is an industry wide assessment/analysis by 4Gamer as part of their reports on the end of the financial year. No one bothered to read the introduction to the article (including me!) and everyone jumped into the summary on Cave.
4Gamer's analysis is saying that based on the business trends of the company and their results, this is the likely route they will take in the future. It's an analysis I think most people will agree with, but it's not something the company has confirmed or commented on. Cave's year end report to shareholders should come out mid-July. If there are any actual announcements about a major shift, that's where it will be.
4Gamer's analysis is saying that based on the business trends of the company and their results, this is the likely route they will take in the future. It's an analysis I think most people will agree with, but it's not something the company has confirmed or commented on. Cave's year end report to shareholders should come out mid-July. If there are any actual announcements about a major shift, that's where it will be.