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[apana]

I remember Durante saying quite a while back that visually there wouldn't be any difference between a system with 5GB usable ram and 7GB (all else being equal). Given info per frame would be limited, the underlying operations can only get so large. I had thought that the extra 2GB would help with caching data for better load times.

Given the deed accomplished by 1GB gfx cards today, I am not worried for the moment.

However, all the anger surrounding this situation is clear: It's less about the potential ramification of the deduction and more about the perception of a greater number that most of us had assumed given the way the instrument has been marketed, especially given the fact that it received 100% jump in the amount from earlier leaked documents.

Yes, I am not sure I like Sony's behavior. Numbers are fine but they should be explained to consumers if you are going to benefit from them from a PR standpoint.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

Why would Sony be scared?

The only thing I can think of of is Kinect. But Kinect is a feature that is uneeded and not wanted by many of the hardcore gamers. With an extra $100 on top of that, the pre-orders establish without a doubt Sony will remain worldwide market leader like this gen.

Who said they were scared? I just thought that (if true) it's lame that they're setting aside this RAM for the OS just so they can see what MS will come up with and have room to replicate it.

I see. What you said is just wrong then. There was no "copying" happening. Netflix Instant was just becoming big. It was on 360 and other consoles couldn't get it. When the contract was up, it went over to PS3 and Wii. It wasn't copying. They just had to wait their turn.

I understand that, but if MS was the first to approach Netflix about providing streaming on consoles and put that contract together then that means Sony and Nintendo weren't and essentially just pulling a "me too!" kind of thing after they saw the success that was had. Not that there's anything wrong with that but when it comes to keeping RAM access away from devs just to wait and see what the competition comes up with then that comes across as a little pathetic to me.

 

[i-Lo]

For example, caching web browser loaded tabs in ram for instant resuming. But if the game requests that ram, the web browser would reload those pages the next time you launched it.

So it can bring performance benefits for the OS for things that don't absolutely need to stay active in ram


Fixed ram would need to cover suspended game state and whatever the maximum number of active OS apps would be

That was literally my next question, and I posted a few pages back, still can't give out too much info on that one apparently. Supposedly can be "called back" from dev tools. The bottom line is that it's there if required.

So from what I am understanding, devs can target their games to be built around 5.5GB of RAM but 1GB out of that can used to as a cache for other non-gaming functions while the game is in suspended state.

If that's the case then this "flexible" ram's function is one on system (most base) level that game devs would NOT have to worry about while developing their game.

This is strange because I remember an article posted here a while back which discussed PS4's ram. In it one developer said that the great thing about the set up is that they can NOT see the overall ram amount rather only what is available for development (as a hard limit). So, in essence, devs atm, should have access to the whole 5.5GB.

 

[jaosobno]

PS4 has 4.5GB for game developers. How many out of 5 GB has XB1? Do we know the memory footprint of the game OS? It also runs in that 5 GB memory space So I guess less than 5 are really available.

Umm... All 3 OS' eat up 3GB. GameOS, App OS and Hypervisor.

 

[Jarmel]

Please please elaborate.

One thing of note, PC GPUs some 3 or 4 times as powerful as the PS4 get by on 6GBs of GDDR...

And those PCs can get maxed out as well.

 

[ultron87]

Just talked to one last guy who works with third parties. He has no idea what the numbers are (or that this is going apeshit on gaf currently) but said "How is this even an issue when every third party we talk to are happy as clams about how much memory we have and how fast it is?" And then referred to it as a 'complete non-issue.' Which is exactly what everyone else has said (both inside sony and at third parties).


So... certain people at gaf are upset but developers, seemingly, are not.

So if it is a non issue does this mean the amount of RAM the Xbox One has available is similarly not limiting at all?

 

[LuuKyK]

:lol another great thread.

Honestly, though, I see this as giving room for improvement. If devs arent going to use it all now, reserve it and maybe later it can be fully used. It seems like a strategy (not really strategy, uhm, how to word it...) to show progression over the gen, so maybe they can extend the life of the console by showing how devs are still improving the execution and making better looking games. Thats how I see it at least.

 

[Hex]

What's up with the title change? Just because it's "bad" news for Sony, mods try to make into something less obvious.

Absolutely.
It is secret code for the Sony cleaners to come through and start taking ips so they know where to send the black choppers.
Bear is Jack Tretton, not for any bad reasons but just an obsession with that classic and great television show BJ and the Bear.
Salmon is actually a pet name for EviLore though stories vary as to why, some would have you believe it is something MMA related, others would have you believe it is swimming, I have heard it was a drunken body glitter incident with five girls and an otter from a college swim team that nobody wants to talk about.

 

[metalslimer]

Just talked to one last guy who works with third parties. He has no idea what the numbers are (or that this is going apeshit on gaf currently) but said "How is this even an issue when every third party we talk to are happy as clams about how much memory we have and how fast it is?" And then referred to it as a 'complete non-issue.' Which is exactly what everyone else has said (both inside sony and at third parties).


So... certain people at gaf are upset but developers, seemingly, are not.

Sorry they dont know wtf they are talking about.

 

[Zombie James]

Just talked to one last guy who works with third parties. He has no idea what the numbers are (or that this is going apeshit on gaf currently) but said "How is this even an issue when every third party we talk to are happy as clams about how much memory we have and how fast it is?" And then referred to it as a 'complete non-issue.' Which is exactly what everyone else has said (both inside sony and at third parties).


So... certain people at gaf are upset but developers, seemingly, are not.

Yeah, I think this nails it. If this is a complete non-issue to the people building games, it shouldn't matter to us.

So if it is a non issue does this mean the amount of RAM the Xbox One has available is similarly not limiting at all?

Guess not, for the time being. I'm sure as the generation moves on developers will need and want more.

 

[test_account]

Your point? It's a canceled order, so it doesn't list an amount.

Just out of curiousity, why did you cancel the preorder, and why tell about it in this thread (the same question goes for all that did it)?

 

[saveweyard]

Just talked to one last guy who works with third parties. He has no idea what the numbers are (or that this is going apeshit on gaf currently) but said "How is this even an issue when every third party we talk to are happy as clams about how much memory we have and how fast it is?" And then referred to it as a 'complete non-issue.' Which is exactly what everyone else has said (both inside sony and at third parties).


So... certain people at gaf are upset but developers, seemingly, are not.

I don't think this can be quoted enough.

 

[fuzzyreactor]

havent really been following this, but are ppl really canceling their preorders over this?

surely a joke, right?

 

[Deleted member 80556]

Just talked to one last guy who works with third parties. He has no idea what the numbers are (or that this is going apeshit on gaf currently) but said "How is this even an issue when every third party we talk to are happy as clams about how much memory we have and how fast it is?" And then referred to it as a 'complete non-issue.' Which is exactly what everyone else has said (both inside sony and at third parties).


So... certain people at gaf are upset but developers, seemingly, are not.

People like to complain about non issues, even if the people directly affected don't really care or are happy about the situation.

The Bear is the mascot for the gaming empire. He brings us gifts and we accept with open arms for he is the bringer of E3. All hail the Bear!

Ah, it's the E3 Ninty bear!

 

[gazele]

So it sounds to me like video game media has known about this issue for a while, maybe why sessler has been saying the whole story is not out yet? Could explain brad's opinion too

 

[Mlatador]

The different reactions to
(1) "3 gb for an OS footprint is unacceptable" vs "Reserving 3.5 for an OS footprint is smart"
(2) "We can't trust "goals" for changes to dev-kit memory allocation" vs "Well obviously they'll cut down the OS and give more memory to developers"
(3) "Wait for an official statement" vs "Why would they admit something bad, it's obviously true"
(4) "It's all about the games!" vs "Yeah, they've announced more games, but the other company has more unannounced games."
(5) "Yeah, many titles look sloppy, but it's pre-alpha! Assume it will look better" vs "Sure, their titles look polished, but they're six months behind and rushing things."


All very interesting.

Spoiler

This obviously only applies to a select few.

Yepp, interesting!

 

[NullPointer]

Just curious but how much has the OS/reserved footprint for the 360 and PS3 changed since launch?

Anybody know?

Reposting since this thread is moving so quick. How much did current gen launch caps get reduced over time?

 

[Kinyou]

PS4 has 4.5GB for game developers. How many out of 5 GB has XB1? Do we know the memory footprint of the game OS? It also runs in that 5 GB memory space So I guess less than 5 are really available.

The XB1 has 8 GB total, 3 are reserved for the OS so that leaves developers with 5 GB.

Yeah, I think this nails it. If this is a complete non-issue to the people building games, it shouldn't matter to us.

I think in total this whole ordeal is more about the console war thing, with the sony advocates who used to claim that the PS4 has so much more ram than the Xb1.

 

[Donos]

Hope Evillore is prepping his servers for the upcoming NPDs when both consoles are out. This will be so good.

 

[Papacheeks]

By the number who cancelled their pre orders.

Plenty Did.

I know right! I will laugh my ass off when they try to re-order after this stupid comment/shitstorm and be denied because of no stock.

Can't wait to celebrate to those idiots.

 

[bryanee]

lol man what a thread. Lots of laughs to be had especially at people cancelling pre-orders.

I fully paid my pre-order off not one hour ago. I cant wait.

 

[saveweyard]

Reposting since this thread is moving so quick. How much did current gen launch caps get reduced over time?

I think PS3 started at 160 and is down to 50? I think that's what someone said much earlier in the thread.

 

[sp3000]

I like how console OS's have become more bloated then desktop ones

In b4 CODING TO THE METAL

 

[Drek]

Here's the deal...somewhat. From a dev at one of the biggest in the industry. Just a messenger here.

Dev still a little cagey to give out 100% concrete numbers unfortunately like I was previously told, so I apologize ahead of time that they're not as detailed, but these are supposed to be the closest to detailed info I get on the OS footprint:

-At most, the OS uses 1.5GB, with a good amount of that helping the HD recording feature and on the fly switching/ multi tasking
-4.5GB is indeed about what's available for devs at present.
-1GB is set aside for futureproofing OS operations down the line.
-1GB for developer reserve, should they need it

And finally as an important point, I'm being told the faster RAM in the PS4 does in fact make a huge difference.

This actually makes some sense, unlike Eurogamer. Sony likely doesn't have the firmware and development tools scaled up for the late in life RAM bump. A scenario where they're now up to 4.5 GB in a "stable" development/firmware environment and willing to allow an additional 1GB but want to give an extra level of technical scrutiny to those titles at this point makes sense. So does holding back an extra 1GB just in case there is a big OS feature they need down the road. It is far from the hard and fast divide Eurogamer's shoddy reporting suggests.

To that end, it would suggest a roadmap where the 1GB becomes "standard" relatively quickly and over time more and more of the 1GB "reserve" and 1.5GB OS allocation would be fed back to the game development pool a la the PS3 and X360, where OS refinement freed up memory.

The real challenge in this scenario for Sony would be quickly responding to both OS and developer needs without handicapping the other long term, but that disappears if the XB1's OS fails to offer any kind of meaningful game changer as Sony would then be able to release the 1GB reserve to developers without fear of losing this generation's party chat. Then as the 1.5GB OS shrinks they'll be able to feed more back to the gaming side or use the freed resources to add features.

This of course assumes the OS doesn't see further pre-release refinement, which it probably will.

 

[Can Crusher]

Just talked to one last guy who works with third parties. He has no idea what the numbers are (or that this is going apeshit on gaf currently) but said "How is this even an issue when every third party we talk to are happy as clams about how much memory we have and how fast it is?" And then referred to it as a 'complete non-issue.' Which is exactly what everyone else has said (both inside sony and at third parties).


So... certain people at gaf are upset but developers, seemingly, are not.

Devs were happy when Xbox 360 had 512MB of Ram. Devs became sad throughout the years that the Xbox 360 only had 512MB of Ram.

I sense a pattern.

 

[RiverBed]

Being able to switch between games seamlessly (and other apps) is a very important feature for me. the rest of the RAM is plenty. Current gen has 0.5GB for fucks sake. The leap next gen is HUGE-especially with GDDR5.

 

[spannicus]

I say let xbox fans circle jerk on this thread until Sony give the actual numbers then we will have a great wall of shame.

Yes when they confirm that announcing 8 GB for games was to make them look better than Microsoft infront of the world and that there is 4 GB alloted for OS instead of 3.5GB. Meltdown continues and Sony Fanboys continue to say. " THIS MUST BE FALSE" LMAO.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Am I crazy or are posts getting deleted?

 

[Seik]

Dat thread title.

 

[nded]

Reposting since this thread is moving so quick. How much did current gen launch caps get reduced over time?

They got smaller over time and the extra memory was freed up for games.

 

[Wynnebeck]

So if it is a non issue does this mean the amount of RAM the Xbox One has available is similarly not limiting at all?

This whole entire situation now puts a greater emphasis on the quality of RAM and bandwith between GDDR5 and DDR3/ESRAM. The PS4 and Xbone might have similar numbers but the higher quality GDDR5 is going to make the difference and from what we are hearing from the insiders from people about it, most other devs agree.

Yes when they confirm that announcing 8 GB for games was to make them look better than Microsoft infront of the world and that there is 4 GB alloted for OS instead of 3.5GB. Meltdown continues and Sony Fanboys continue to say. " THIS MUST BE FALSE" LMAO.

Might want to chill out bro. You've been talking about Sony fanboys all day while looking pretty silly yourself.

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

My take on this is that the really graphically intense games will have 5.5 GB to work with on the PS4 and only 5 on the Xbox One. So how is Sony doomed?

 

[glenn8]

Of course devs arent complaining. I would neither.
But those 4-5gb are already getting filled up.
Its about the future brethren, its about the future

 

[Franklinator]

geez, there's been a lot of devastation at Sony hq lately. my thoughts go out to all effected by these tragedies.

 

[halogamer]

Why are people pulling numbers out of their ass when Sony hasn't given us any. Even Famousmortimer said that developers don't have the exact numbers.

 

[Eric_S]

So the current best guess is that the OS takes 1.5GB with 1GB in reserve to be (hopefully) released at a later date and there is 1GB out of 5,5GB max that is in some odd way in flux?

Well as my Cantonese girl would say, "ho la", or ok if you so will.

I'm fine with the 1,5 part, seems a bit on the large side, but I assume they don't want the HDD to trash around managing game data and recordings, or for that matter hampen the HDD performance to the games? I don't remember if PS4 games can mandate intalls or not.

The curious thing here is the 1GB, as it seems so silly to me. Somebody here suggested that it could be space that may be allocted to buffering webpages and the like? But if you can have 1GB more then I assume most devs would use it in an instant, for ease of development? Unless there is some sort of game service that may or may not be used depending on the use of said 1GB extra buffer? I can't say that my imagination can conjure up something relevant, but perhaps there are others here with the relevant development experience that feels that they would like to share?

 

[-COOLIO-]

John Blow is crying now.

his game uses 5 gbs currently, and his x1 comments were centered around it being cheap (ddr3) yet limited, he had no issue with sony using 8gbs of gddr5.

 

[BrainZEROX]

Umm... All 3 OS' eat up 3GB. GameOS, App OS and Hypervisor.

OK. What I heard until now was that XB1 runs two VMs monitored by one hypervisor. One had a 5 GB sandbox (the gaming one that runs game OS) while the second one and 3 (the application one that runs a "light" version of Windows 8). Thanks for the information.

 

[ILoveBish]

This thread is insane. Who thought all 8 gigs would be available for games? Concern trolling looks to be back in fashion.

 

[NullPointer]

I think PS3 started at 160 and is down to 50? I think that's what someone said much earlier in the thread.

That's pretty significant if true. Nice.

They got smaller over time and the extra memory was freed up for games.

I was hoping for a little more detail honestly.

 

[Cbajd5]

so wait

am i getting my free ps4 controller or not

 

[OrangeYouGlad]

Just out of curiousity, why did you cancel the preorder, and why tell about it in this thread (the same question goes for all that did it)?

I canceled it almost a week ago purely for financial reasons and not being able to justify buying into it day one.

Once I saw someone bring up the pre-order canceled meme I knew I could actually sell it as being real because I did have cancellation emails. I really just wanted to see how many people would eat it up.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Reposting since this thread is moving so quick. How much did current gen launch caps get reduced over time?

Was 120 now it's 50 so they game back 70MB of ram .

 

[CadetMahoney]

Its a downgrade from what was previously thought, and puts it squarely in line with a reserve similar to the Xbox One. A limit that was used to crucify the Xbone BTW, as it showed in clear terms that gaming capability was being sacrificed for task switching media and apps.

That's how it looks right now.

PS4 is still vastly ahead and games will reflect this, especially in comparisons.

Why does Sony get the benefit of the doubt, that the OS footprint might eventually be reduced but not MS?

Judging from this gen and the PS3 footprint got smaller as they optimized it.

I say let xbox fans circle jerk on this thread until Sony give the actual numbers then we will have a great wall of shame.

pretty much.

Sadstation 4

smirk.

 

[shinobi602]

Edit: Correction required

 

[LukasTaves]

Here's the deal...somewhat. From a dev at one of the biggest in the industry. Just a messenger here.

Dev still a little cagey to give out 100% concrete numbers unfortunately like I was previously told, so I apologize ahead of time that they're not as detailed, but these are supposed to be the closest to detailed info I get on the OS footprint:

-At most, the OS uses 1.5GB, with a good amount of that helping the HD recording feature and on the fly switching/ multi tasking
-4.5GB is indeed about what's available for devs at present.
-1GB is set aside for futureproofing OS operations down the line.
-1GB for developer reserve, should they need it

And finally as an important point, I'm being told the faster RAM in the PS4 does in fact make a huge difference.

1.5GB of actual use seems a lot for what the OS currently does... They must be keeping the entire video buffer on the memory then. (Which does make sense, otherwise the game would have to compete for the HDD paltry bandwidth)...

As for the faster RAM making a difference, could you clarify on that? Developers are being able to use more assets per frame? More bandwidth for transparency and other framebuffer effects? Both? That is comparing first time efforts on both machines or after a few optimizations attempts (meaning if they already tried optimize the code for esram on xbone)

 

[prwxv3]

Do we know how much of the 3Gb os for the xbone is for future proofing.

 

[NeoUltima]

Well that's 1.5gb more than I expected. Hoping this 1gb reserve really is something they can tap in to at will. Then it would only be 500mb less than anticipated. Which would be fine.

 

[saveweyard]

That's pretty significant if true. Nice.


I was hoping for a little more detail honestly.

Looks like it was 120MB to 50MB actually: http://www.dailytech.com/Sony+Shrinks+PS3+OS+Gives+Devs+70MB+of+Extra+Memory/article17775.htm

 

[NullPointer]

Who thought all 8 gigs would be available for games?

Pretty sure most here thought 7GB was available.