Support NeoGAF

[meltingparappa]

Mike's an idiot. Rape jokes, no matter what the context, aren't funny, and is a sign of an extremely lazy writer. Sad because I enjoy Penny Arcade a lot.

What about movies that feature rape, used to make profits for people, some of them with potentially questionable sexual tastes?

Should Lovely Bones have been made and given paychecks to 200 people? What about Boys Don't Cry? Or Lust, Caution?

Should any of them be criticized for not treating the subject matter serious enough? The latter is a complete work of fiction, should everyone be aghast that someone dare use rape as a narrative tool that might desensitize people to it?

 

[-COOLIO-]

i still find that comic funny.

but, i wonder how come the 'roused by savage blows' part doesnt get any flak but the rape part does. beating the shit out of people is really bad too.

 

[Unhandled Exception]

Well after reading up I totally get why people were disgusted by it, and also get why people supported PA. The problem I'm running into here is that PA never actually seemed to justify the joke outside of "lolfreespeech", which isn't an indefensible way to approach anything creative, but completely tactless when dealing with something as easy to offend/piss off/give the wrong impression as rape. They definitely screwed up big time in how they handled it.

 

[massoluk]

To be frank, I think it's overblown. It's the Aristocrats joke in Webcomics form, but Mike handled thing badly didn't help.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

The biggest issue wasn't the original comic itself, though that will as usual be ignored.

 

[kirblar]

Well after reading up I totally get why people were disgusted by it, and also get why people supported PA. The problem I'm running into here is that PA never actually seemed to justify the joke outside of "lolfreespeech", which isn't an indefensible way to approach anything creative, but completely tactless when dealing with something as easy to offend/piss off/give the wrong impression as rape. They definitely screwed up big time in how they handled it.

The underlying problem with these repeated foot-in-mouth unforced errors is that Mike K has the emotional maturity of a 4 year old.

 

[MrSaturn99]

It's because the people who think the joke is about rape haven't played MMOs and lack the context to understand that the strip isn't meant to make you laugh at the victim.

I understood the joke when I looked it up , but unless they're referring to the artists' attitudes (which I wouldn't know much about), I don't see how this has anything to do with misogyny.

I mean, that's clearly a dude in the picture.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Mike's an idiot. Rape jokes, no matter what the context, aren't funny, and is a sign of an extremely lazy writer.

a large part of comedy is laughing at really messed up things.

 

[AlucardGV]

not again.

 

[Clear]

The problem is not the comic strip anymore. It's their reaction to the criticism. Their complete failure to see things from another perspective. Show any hint of empathy for the struggle of other people.

Honestly, I don't see it as a lack of empathy more a simmering frustration over seeing a throwaway gag get turned into a major controversy.

Never really cared about PA myself, but I feel for them having to put up with this sort of ludicrous overreaction.

If South Park can get away with a whole episode based around the the whole "Lucas/Spielberg raped my childhood with Indy IV" meme, (which sorry, but I do think is/was funny) without anyonew batting an eyelid, because its actually pretty mild for their satirical style, why should these guys get pilloried for it?

 

[andymcc]

http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/3041940865/the-pratfall-of-penny-arcade-a-timeline

these guys are dickheads

 

[stufte]

The underlying problem with these repeated foot-in-mouth unforced errors is that Mike K has the emotional maturity of a 4 year old.

So?

 

[Nairume]

The biggest issue wasn't the original comic itself, though that will as usual be ignored.

Yeah, the comic really wasn't the issue.

The issue is that PA's response to a few people saying they didn't appreciate the usage of rape in setting up the joke was to start selling shit out of spite.

 

[Neverfade]

these guys are dickheads

Yep. That's why a lot of us read PA.

 

[Mesoian]

Maybe it's just me but I'm not seeing anything misogynistic in that strip.

It's not, it's the idea that Rape can't be used in a joke because it's offensive to people who have been or are threatened by the act of rape.

Which is bullshit, and every comedian on earth has talked about.

 

[lazorexplosion]

Stupidest controversy in recent memory, the joke wasn't about rape - it was about quests in MMOs.

Oh like that matters. The most important thing about being A More Sensitive, Concerned Person Than Everyone Else Who Is Crusading Against Bad People is to find something to be offended at. The fact that that thing is completely fucking ridiculous, taken out of context and about as far removed from actual reality as you can get is practically beside the point.

 

[Grimsen]

i still find that comic funny.

but, i wonder how come the 'roused by savage blows' part doesnt get any flak but the rape part does. beating the shit out of people is really bad too.

#TeamBullying T-Shirts for 2014, when the Dickwolves thing dies down..

Mike, call me.

 

[Lijik]

Mike really needs to learn how to handle himself. 90% of any PA controversy stems from him acting like a complete child

Of course people in this thread apparently would rather complain about strawmen

 

[Not Spaceghost]

To be frank, I think it's overblown. It's the Aristocrats joke in Webcomics form, but Mike handled thing badly didn't help.

Yeah seriously, while it's not quite on the master level of the aristocrats joke it's the same principal to shock you by disgust. That humor may not be for everyone but getting offended over this?

However the PA guys really need to take a class in PR or something they are AWFUL at handling these things.

 

[njean777]

See nothing wrong with the strip, if you do not like it then do not read it.

 

[Nymphae]

Well after reading up I totally get why people were disgusted by it, and also get why people supported PA. The problem I'm running into here is that PA never actually seemed to justify the joke outside of "lolfreespeech", which isn't an indefensible way to approach anything creative, but completely tactless when dealing with something as easy to offend/piss off/give the wrong impression as rape. They definitely screwed up big time in how they handled it.

Yeah, they just come off as arrogant assholes to me. I used to be a huge fan of the comic, but I can't stand their real life personalities.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Let's not forget the mess they made from treating Jessica Nigiri the way they did last year.

What did they do?

 

[RedNumberFive]

It's becoming harder and harder to believe that the PA Empire is being run by adults.

 

[Ohnonono]

PA could have had the same opinion they have now and just not responded in a way that was purposely hurtful to people. Amazingly Jerry steers clear of this stuff pretty easily by just not acting like a dick. It would have taken only the slightest bit of tact to head it all off in the first place. Sitting in front of a crowd of fans and bringing it back up again is pretty dumb if you don't want to talk about it all again.

 

[ultron87]

Mike really needs to learn how to handle himself. 90% of any PA controversy stems from him acting like a complete child

I'm shocked that Khoo hasn't whipped him into shape by this point.

 

[kirblar]

So?

When said person is one of the leaders/public faces of your brand and isn't kept on a leash it creates tremendous issues. (As we've repeatedly seen.)

 

[Silky]

You say rape jokes aren't funny, and is a sign of a lazy writer which I read to mean that rape jokes should be avoided.

...I just think it's lazy and unfunny.

What about movies that feature rape, used to make profits for people, some of them with potentially questionable sexual tastes?

Should Lovely Bones have been made and given paychecks to 200 people? What about Boys Don't Cry? Or Lust, Caution?

Should any of them be criticized for not treating the subject matter serious enough? The latter is a complete work of fiction, should everyone be aghast that someone dare use rape as a narrative tool that might desensitize people to it?

No, not at all. Repeating: /I/ just think its lazy and unfunny.

a large part of comedy is laughing at really messed up things.

Yup. Some things I find humorous, others I don't.

 

[faceless007]

The biggest issue wasn't the original comic itself, though that will as usual be ignored.

Right. The original comic itself didn't really get that much controversy; a few feminist blogs wrote articles about it, but PA could have safely ignored them. Instead they (and their fanbase) chose to insert themselves into the controversy by invading those feminist blogs and leaving mocking comments and antagonizing them over Twitter. PA threw a childish hissy fit over the fact that some bloggers criticized their work and decided to make it personal and they just couldn't stop themselves from digging in deeper.

And apparently, they still can't 2 years later. Says a lot.

 

[zaccheus]

apparently you cant use the word rape without internet slacktivists protesting everything

 

[PixyJunket]

Rape jokes, no matter what the context, aren't funny, and is a sign of an extremely lazy writer.[/url]

And just who, exactly, are you, that you get to tell everyone with such an arrogant display of pomposity, what is funny or not?

 

[Moobabe]

Right. The original comic itself didn't really get that much controversy; a few feminist blogs wrote articles about it, but PA could have safely ignored them. Instead they (and their fanbase) chose to insert themselves into the controversy by invading those feminist blogs and leaving mocking comments and antagonizing them over Twitter. PA threw a childish hissy fit over the fact that some bloggers criticized their work and decided to make it personal and they just couldn't stop themselves from digging in deeper.

And apparently, they still can't 2 years later. Says a lot.

Pretty much.

 

[njean777]

apparently you cant use the word rape without internet slacktivists protesting everything

Welcome to the internet, emotions run rampant, and critical thinking goes right out the window.

 

[Trigger]

Right. The original comic itself didn't really get that much controversy; a few feminist blogs wrote articles about it, but PA could have safely ignored them. Instead they (and their fanbase) chose to insert themselves into the controversy by invading those feminist blogs and leaving mocking comments and antagonizing them over Twitter. PA threw a childish hissy fit over the fact that some bloggers criticized their work and decided to make it personal and they just couldn't stop themselves from digging in deeper.

And apparently, they still can't 2 years later. Says a lot.

Yeah, I agree. What a bunch of dick heads.

 

[meltingparappa]

...I just think it's lazy and unfunny.

No, not at all. Repeating: /I/ just think its lazy and unfunny.

Yup. Some things I find humorous, others I don't.

I completely missed you saying that. Kudos to you and I owe you an apology! That's a huge distinction.

 

[stufte]

When said person is one of the leaders/public faces of your brand and isn't kept on a leash it creates tremendous issues. (As we've repeatedly seen.)

if by "tremendous issues" you mean "blown out of proportion amongst a small section of the internet populous" then you're right.

 

[Retne]

I didn't really have a problem with the comic but the way they reacted to the upset people put me off them forever. I stopped visiting their site, I stopped donating to Child's Play, and I will never attend PAX. They just seem like horrible people which is a shame because I loved their stuff before I saw their ugly side.

 

[Mesoian]

Right. The original comic itself didn't really get that much controversy; a few feminist blogs wrote articles about it, but PA could have safely ignored them. Instead they (and their fanbase) chose to insert themselves into the controversy by invading those feminist blogs and leaving mocking comments and antagonizing them over Twitter. PA threw a childish hissy fit over the fact that some bloggers criticized their work and decided to make it personal and they just couldn't stop themselves from digging in deeper.

And apparently, they still can't 2 years later. Says a lot.

They do need to learn how to not engage people who go after stuff that's generally taken out of context, especially since their company is so large and has such a public presence.

That being said, I can understand how it feels to want to lash out at people who are attacking you to fulfill their click through quota. It can be hard stepping away from the keyboard.

I didn't really have a problem with the comic but the way they reacted to the upset people put me off them forever. I stopped visiting their site, I stopped donating to Child's Play, and I will never attend PAX. They just seem like horrible people which is a shame because I loved their stuff before I saw their ugly side.

I will never be able to understand people who judge people so all encompassingly off of actions that basically stem from having a bad day.

But that's me.

 

[Tnetennba]

It always seemed that most of this controversy stemmed from the actions and comments that followed the comic, most of which came directly from Mike. It probably would've been better for him to just leave this all alone, especially since just a few months ago he was caught up in a whirlwind of transphobia. Pretty much every time he opens his mouth on a touchy subject he digs a bigger hole. Most people would probably have learned from that by now.

That crowd reaction was horrible as well, whatever "side" of this you're on.

If you wanted to make a parody of feminism descending into vapid, holier-than-thou, victimhood seeking posturing I don't think you could even come up with something as outlandish as taking offense at the existence of completely fictional joke creatures with dicks for arms, but here we are.

I think people are taking offence at, y'know, rape.

 

[Waylon Drums]

I love the people who complain about others' complaining and don't see the irony (I've done it a million times before.)

I'm also fascinated by the notion that some people have that if a person is offended by something, that the offendee automatically hates free speech and wants it abolished.


Free speech does not mean people are not allowed to be offended or take issue with someone you've said. Free speech means that you can say anything* without fear of being imprisoned or sued over it.

Spoiler

*within reason

 

[Neuromancer]

FFS. These guys need to learn to drop these things. I like their comics in general, and Tycho's posts, but it's impossible to defend them when they keep saying dumb stuff.

 

[HamPster PamPster]

Right. The original comic itself didn't really get that much controversy; a few feminist blogs wrote articles about it, but PA could have safely ignored them. Instead they (and their fanbase) chose to insert themselves into the controversy by invading those feminist blogs and leaving mocking comments and antagonizing them over Twitter. PA threw a childish hissy fit over the fact that some bloggers criticized their work and decided to make it personal and they just couldn't stop themselves from digging in deeper.

And apparently, they still can't 2 years later. Says a lot.

Its amazing how many people miss this and fixate on some perceived censorship. Almost no one cared about the comic at the time. It wasn't until PA threw a hissy fit that people on the sidelines took notice and said maybe they should calm down

 

[stufte]

I think people are taking offence at, y'know, a joke about rape.

FTFY

PA didn't rape anyone.

 

[Dongs Macabre]

Eh, I think people overreacted to the dickwolves joke, but making a t-shirt was probably too much.

 

[Sullichin]

...I just think it's lazy and unfunny.



No, not at all. Repeating: /I/ just think its lazy and unfunny.



Yup. Some things I find humorous, others I don't.

What do you mean by lazy?

 

[Alec]

I hate that it may have served as a 'trigger' to bringing up painful memories for some people, but I thought it was a funny strip. I also think it was a mistake to pull the merchandise.

 

[Monocle]

Mike's an idiot. Rape jokes, no matter what the context, aren't funny, and is a sign of an extremely lazy writer. Sad because I enjoy Penny Arcade a lot.

That being said, people going out and saying "If you go to PAX you're an ignorant moron" is a bit too much.

OP should put this in to explain the whole Dickwolves thing http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/3041940865/the-pratfall-of-penny-arcade-a-timeline

Then how do you account for my opinion that this set by Louis CK is one of the funniest things I've ever seen?

Sorry, but you're wrong. Anything can be funny in the right context.

 

[Aaron Strife]

I'm fine with the joke itself but let's not kid ourselves here, rape is a huge problem in our society and others and for many just the word itself is enough to trigger an instant reaction. And I think most of the criticism isn't so much "RAWR FEMALE EMPOWERMENT FUCK YOU MEN" but more "As a reader that made me uncomfortable" I don't know if the ensuing controversy maybe inspired more of the former, but at least initially that was my perception.

The problem is Krahulik being a giant dickwolf in reaction, and this is hardly the first time where he hasn't been able to quit while he's behind. And of course they have a fan base that's fine with egging them on.

 

[mr teaspoon]

Mike's an idiot. Rape jokes, no matter what the context, aren't funny, and is a sign of an extremely lazy writer. Sad because I enjoy Penny Arcade a lot.

Bullshit. Comedy is subjective. You don't think rape can ever be funny.

Personally, I think Penny Arcade is pretty bad. Their strips occasionally are worth a chuckle, but overall it's tepid. Controversy aside, shit like 'dickwolves' is just completely, utterly moronic. And I can't stand that godawful art style.

But they can joke about rape all they want. And it can be funny.

But don't take my word for it, learn from the master - I beg all of you to watch this.

 

[mentallyinept]

It's because the people who think the joke is about rape haven't played MMOs and lack the context to understand that the strip isn't meant to make you laugh at the victim.

The objection from feminist perspective, from what I have read, was actually the use of rape as a trivial part of the joke. This goes into the whole "rape-culture" theory, where any flippant use of rape in any context trivializes it and therefore normalizes and perpetuates it by reinforcing the idea that rape is "no big deal".

I don't really agree with this perspective, as a whole, but that is what the issue is.

I'm sure there are tons of uneducated people that simply jump on any use of the word rape in any context being inherently bad, but that isn't what feminists are objecting to.

 

[chrominance]

The problem is not the comic strip anymore. It's their reaction to the criticism. Their complete failure to see things from another perspective. Show any hint of empathy for the struggle of other people.

It's not so much that Mike says these things in the first place - it's that he doubles down on them and then escalates the situation.

The biggest reason this blew up was their initial response which generally consisted of Mike being a total idiot, and it just get snowballing from there. I took no issue with the strip, but I took issue with him continuing to act like an insensitive jackass and put his foot in his mouth over and over again, which he has done on other topics and issues as well.

Well after reading up I totally get why people were disgusted by it, and also get why people supported PA. The problem I'm running into here is that PA never actually seemed to justify the joke outside of "lolfreespeech", which isn't an indefensible way to approach anything creative, but completely tactless when dealing with something as easy to offend/piss off/give the wrong impression as rape. They definitely screwed up big time in how they handled it.

PA could have had the same opinion they have now and just not responded in a way that was purposely hurtful to people. Amazingly Jerry steers clear of this stuff pretty easily by just not acting like a dick.

Yes yes yes to all of the above. The weirdest part is everyone thought this issue was settled and PA could've so, so, so easily just left this alone. The second weirdest part is everyone assuming this is still somehow about the original joke (which was in poor taste but whatever). It stopped being about the original joke once PA started selling dickwolves merchandise and Mike said he would wear a dickwolves shirt to PAX, basically telling anyone who might've had qualms with the original comic that they were wrong and that their presence was basically not wanted at PAX.

It's just like the issue PA had with transgendered stuff a while back, where Mike said he didn't understand why calling someone a woman when they clearly have woman parts is so offensive. That's fine to state if you genuinely don't understand, but Mike seemed to not want to understand, even when friends of his tried to gently explain why that might be a big deal to some people. THAT'S the problem.