They aren't. 3D means rendering things twice. 60fps means being able to render everything twice as fast, and do physics, game logic etc twice as fast too.
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WiiU "Latte" GPU Die Photo - GPU Feature Set And Power Analysis
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They aren't. 3D means rendering things twice. 60fps means being able to render everything twice as fast, and do physics, game logic etc twice as fast too.
lostinblue
Banned
It's as It's as NBtoaster said, there's that notion, for instance a 60 frames per second game reaction time is usually 66 ms, a 30 fps 3D game retains the norm for 30 fps games, 133 ms; double that of 60 frames, that means despite rendering 60 frames just the same it's not doing, say coordinate readings 60 times; instead it's rendering each frame twice on different viewpoints.
It's like splitscreen, nothing is free, but some things are cheaper than others.
There aren't many games this generation doing 3D and being worthy of notice, but you certainly have lots of approaches, from halving the rendering resolution just like splitscreen (killzone 3 going from 1280x720 2D to 640x716 in 3D, uncharted 3 from 1280x720 in 2D to 896x504, MK4, Top Spin 4, Virtua Tennis and Motorstom going for lower horizontal resolutions as well to critek claims regarding "magic".
Framebuffers were a big bottleneck this gen, but it didn't stop there, it was as if consoles were leaking boats, they had all this potential on paper but could only do as much. The Ram latency and lack of optimization in regards to optimizing pipelines (cache miss, stalls, waiting cycles, tiling resources, etc). Everything was trying to live out of a better budget than it really had.
It all took it's toll.
How do you know this?
lostinblue
Banned
^ I think it's accepted to be the case.
The sources keep saying 1080p. Like the one that was linked.
MaxwellParrish
Member
Thanks, understood (at least generally, the intricacy of technologies are quite the mistery for me...
)lostinblue
Banned
I'm used to typos like that, unless it's confirmed I'll keep thinking it's most likely 720p.
You have to stop clinging to best case scenario gossip/typos/speculation as it's only gonna erode your credibility, I'm being honest.
Game looks pretty good too so it's not like 720p are insulting in any way. Most so called AAA next gen games (PS4/XBone) that were to be 1080p have been downgraded lately (Killzone, Killer Instinct, Battlefield 4), it's evident this generation will primarily be 720p still, and the Wii U was clearly designed with 720p in mind, I think that's the better tradeoff for it, I really do.
On top of it all, Platinum Games sure loves their 60 fps, and they most likely aren't gonna get that on the Wii U @ 1080p with such a looker.
Regarding: "1080p crisp", it could be upscaling the 720p final frame and rendering the HUD on top and at 1080p; it helps a lot and Wii U can certainly do that.
That isn't the first time I've seen. Everything I've seen a new source article mentaion Bayonetta 2's resoution, they say 1080p 60 FPS. That's a lot of typos.
720p is more common but I wouldn't rule it out just yet. After all, we know that the Wii U hardware is nowhere close to being utilized to the max of its capability. Nintendo hasn't even released the second performance update.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/wii-u-update-performance-boost-delayed-summer-update,23502.html
Also, we have Shin'ens comment that 1080p is no problem for the console thanks to the eDRAM. I exepct to see more 1080p Wii U exclusives than 720p.
Nearly every game that wasn't a port or launch title is running at 1080p, or could run it in the case of Nano Assault. We shouldn't underestimate Latte.
Also, its possible that Sonic Lost World is 1080p. Almost every source is releasing media for it in 1080p.
http://www.tssznews.com/2013/08/21/28-new-sonic-lost-world-1080p-screenshots/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL_HsxQYwCU
http://youreplay.com/index.php?page=repeat.php&v=LKvBSGh82A8
Could be the result of Nitnendo making a push to show the Wii U's power they were talking about off to consumers.
I wonder why devs never make games with a 1080i target though. Its either 720p or 1080p. Well, it doesn't matter for me. I'll be playing my PC games at resolutions beyond 2k(QSXGA+.) I'm expecting great things from Latte next year, though.
lostinblue
Banned
I'm not ruling it out, I'm just saying I'm not banking on it either.
In the end, by being more cautious I might be wrong, and said game might be all that, but it's still a best outcome than having put myself on the line saying it was 1080p because someone through non-official channels said it clearly was and I assumed it had to be because not so secretly I wanted it to be the case.
Everyone would love to have all games render at 1080p, thing in Wii U wasn't designed to be a "mostly 1080p" console.
Big difference.
In the end, by being more cautious I might be wrong, and said game might be all that, but it's still a best outcome than having put myself on the line saying it was 1080p because someone through non-official channels said it clearly was and I assumed it had to be because not so secretly I wanted it to be the case.
Everyone would love to have all games render at 1080p, thing in Wii U wasn't designed to be a "mostly 1080p" console.
Big difference.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
lostinblue, where was the news that Killzone's resolution was downgraded? Last I've seen it was 1080p as usual.
Of oucrse not all games will be 1080p. I'm just stating a fact. Over half of games that aren't ports or launch games are 1080p.
Nano Assault Neo*(was 1080p 60 FPS but downgraded in favor of more effets)
Might Switch Force HD(1080p)
Toki Tori 2*(Initially 1080p but downgraded for unknown reasons)
Chasing Aurora(1080p)
Mutant Mudds HD(1080p)
Pokemon Rumble U(1080p)
Transformers: Dark Rubbish(1080p)
Game & Wario(1080p)
Little Inferno(1080p)
Big Trip Runner 2(1080p)
Scribblenauts Unlimited(1080p)
Wind Waker HD(1080p)
The Cave(1080p)
Cloudberry Kingdom(1080p)
Monster Hunter Tri Ultimate(1080p)
Dragon Quest X(1080p)
Tank! Tank! Tank! (1080p)
Pure Chess will be 1080p
Disney's Planes(1080p)
Mario Kart 8, Smash U, Bayonetta 2 and Sonic Lost Worlds have been mostly mentioned as 1080p in most sources though not 100% confirmed.
lostinblue
Banned
See? you're only setting yourself up for disappointment, and after that will there be a third performance update?
Things will get better the moment people developing games become familiar with the system, in fact they're getting better as we speak; but once you're out of the "launch games" and games that started their life elsewhere it's more of a expertise vs budget vs time, thing; it doesn't depend upon "performance upgrades" for power locked away despite the fact that the console is underpowered next to it's next-gen competitors.
You're relying more on articles than on logic, and that promise "performance boost" update is most likely refering to the OS, not games, at least mostly.
Nothing that everyone didn't knew, yet we all expect more 720p to be the norm.
Hell, Shin'en chose to go with 720p because they felt it was more beneficial; do you seriously think most AAA games wouldn't do the same? these are the things I'm talking about, snap out of it, dude. Being extremist either for good (ie: Wii U is a powerhouse) or bad (ie: Wii U? pfff, 3 Wii's duck taped together) is a bad place to position oneself.
I'm an optimist myself, but that doesn't mean I have to sound desperate.
So... Arcade/Store games are 1080p news at eleven?
What is that even supposed to prove?
Toki Tori 2 got downgraded in resolution not for unknown reasons:
Source: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47895244&postcount=57
720p60 seems like such a better tradeoff for pretty much anything bar things that simply run at 1080p and don't need any extra bells and whistles, you guessed it, Online Store games.
Anywho, I find this pointless, I agree do disagree.
I'm not sure, someone pinged me on messenger last week regarding it; I reckon it's still 1080p, but it was downgraded from 60 frames per second target into a 30 frames per second one for single player whilst keeping that goal for multiplayer only.
Not a resolution downgrade but a framerate one; still, for a first person shooter it means more latency; not the best tradeoff in my book, I'm assuming they had to do it.
Ah, so they downgraded for the same reason as Shin'en.
What is there to disagree with though? I'm stating facts. The majority of Wii U games that aren't ports or launch titles are 1080p. That cannot be said for the previous HD consoles.
Most PSN/XboxLive games are 720p. 1080p is the common "exclusive" resolution for the Wii U at the moment. As in the majority of games built from the ground up for the hardware are 1080p games. The games themselves may not be all AAA, but this is still no small feat.
I'm sure most major games will be 720p, but who knows for certain. Well, besides the devs, journalists, insiders and Nintendo of course. I'm optimistic about the possbilities. I think we've still barely scrapped the surface. With more hardware optimizations, The Wii U GPU may turn out to be a next gen beast. Of course it will never beat the PS4/XboxOne GPUs(before someone bomb rushes the thread to throw that tired statement out), but its starting to look more next gen capable than early reports suggested. At least to me.
Believing a game is going to be 1080p based on some sources is not going to erode somebody's credibility, only their expectations and the credibility of their sources. One could say the same for anyone thinking it will be 720p, for all we know it will end up being a lower resolution. Until the resolution is confirmed, or some evidence comes out that WiiU is incapable of rendering, what we have already seen from the game, in 1080p, then its just a matter of believing what we want.
lostinblue
Banned
I think you cling onto the hope of best case scenarios too much, it's nothing personal, but you're putting yourself on the line for what someone else said his eyes judged something as; if I thought something was 1080p then I could do that, but I'd have to have seen it, or know pretty well the person saying that.
Most people don't distinguish 30 from 60 frames, let alone 1280x720 with AA on a good TV from 1920x1080.
Stuff gets out of proportion that way. Someone says it is, and people jump that boat because that's what they hoped for; If something looks to be easy on 1080p (say, Wind Waker) I'll probably go along with it; Bayonetta 1? not so much, not until there's some official data corroborating it; and it it's 1080p30 it's most likely a bad tradeoff (and I don't see them doing "that" at 1080p60).
I think you should do the same, putting it on the table is good, putting yourself on the line for that hypothesis is bad.
Regarding store games for PS3/X360, some are 1080p, albeit certainly not the norm. But nobody's saying that the Wii U isn't more accommodating for such than them, but that certainly doesn't mean just because the most low end games manage the AAA ones should.
Nintendo seems to be pushing for 1080p on some of their games, sure; but in the end the best tradeoff for the architecture is simply not there; that much is evident for me. And thus, since for all means and purposes it'll be competing with more powerful consoles in a few months I really don't think that's something they'll keep aiming for consistently; only when it makes sense.
Like on the more powerful platforms actually.
Fair enough.
It's not the case in particular, it's more like the criteria; there'll always be unconfirmed tidbits that happen to be wrong; if you're always the one that goes "no, I'll stand by them because it's a best case scenario" you're gonna be proven wrong a lot more often than "oookay, they said this; I dunno, if someone confirms it officially I'll go by it, otherwise color me skeptical".
That's what I meant; it's the pattern that can be damaging, not a separate event, obviously.
Don't get me wrong. Even I said it would be nice if true, as I'm am unsure.
I was only question how anyone could be so certain that it wasn't when the little commentary we have all says 1080p. He said it like it was surely 720p beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Also, my hopes aren't up that high. I just expect the console to be better than the lowest common denominator that people often try to limit it to.
megabytecr
Member
From what we know and I have seen, I also think Wii U is built for strong 720p, but with all sorts of effects turn on and with 60fps within reach if developers care, sadly most 3rd party won't. Not that 1080p is not reachable, but the trade offs seems to be in favor of 720p+effects/v-sync and a stronger/stable fps.
I really wished Smash would go the 720p route and add more bells and whistles, I still like how it is looking, still have lots to go, so we will see.
That alone makes a substantial difference from current gen, and I am really satisfied with this taking into account the price and the controller.
A questions for the techies. If we assume an HD 4850 (underclocked 400mhz) was indeed in Wii U dev kits, isn't it the intention of this to have a similar ballpark performance to the final hardware, just like how they were throwing an Nvidia 670 in a PC for XB1 and PS4 demos? Honest question.
I really wished Smash would go the 720p route and add more bells and whistles, I still like how it is looking, still have lots to go, so we will see.
That alone makes a substantial difference from current gen, and I am really satisfied with this taking into account the price and the controller.
A questions for the techies. If we assume an HD 4850 (underclocked 400mhz) was indeed in Wii U dev kits, isn't it the intention of this to have a similar ballpark performance to the final hardware, just like how they were throwing an Nvidia 670 in a PC for XB1 and PS4 demos? Honest question.
Starfish Hero
Member
Bayo 2 is too busy to expect native 1080p and still be as smooth as it is. I doubt even first gen XB1/PS4 titles can do that.
Yeah is does seem a bit farfetched, but it will be a remarkable achievement if it is true. It would shut up a lot of people. Well maybe.
Its not just Bayonetta 2 either. Its also Mario Kart 8, Sonic Lost World, and Smash Brother U that have been largely hinted at being 1080p.
To be specific, it was an underclocked 4850(I think it ran at 400mhz).
Bayo2 will no longer be a launch game for the WiiU.
Question is, is it in Nintendo's best interest to get a game like this running
at 1080p/60fps right during the launch period of its competitors?
Besides the game selling well, will such an achievement help with third party support?
It will certainly appeal to its customer base.
Such a thing would immediately discredit and dismiss all attempts to pin the Wii U's capabilities to the last generation of hardware.
How did I miss this.
http://playeressence.com/siliconera-claims-bayonetta-2-is-in-1080p-resolution/
megabytecr
Member
Good question, that was the big mistake Nintendo made at launch. It needed at least 1 big game, showing the capabilities of the hardware from the start, to shut up any non believers. The problem is they were very inexperience themselves in HD, so IMO they should have had a western studio make a AAA game with great graphics/performance. Nintendo is really very conservative and reacts very slow, imagine the Wii U releasing a year into the touch revolution, now they are last to the party.
OMG if true, but certainly taking it with a grain of salt. I still find what is shown at 720p60 an amazing achievement, but if 1080p is true then it would serve a hell of a lot of crow to a lot of people.
Absolutely. Getting solid 720p 60FPS with what is going on already is showing a huge boost over the last gen Bayonetta, but if its 1080p, there is going to be mass destruction on around here. No one would be able to dismiss the hardware after that.
ArchangelWest
Member
Assuming that some of you have spoken to Kamiya on Twitter before, and since he answers all tweets, (however short and lacking in patience some tweets may be) couldn't we possibly find out the native resolution for Bayonetta 2 that way?
prag16
Banned
I remain a skeptical, but if Bayo2 is pulling off that footage we've seen so far at 1080p60, the Wii U is more capable than most have been thinking lately, and more than what PS360 ports have indicated.
It means a game like Black Ops 2 might be almost possible at 1080p60 on Wii U.... but only if the game is almost entirely rewritten...
Bodes well for exclusives, but not for multiplats.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
*edit* wrong thread
This is what I have been saying from beginning with the Wii U and what I was getting at in my earlier post when I pointed out that almost every Wii U game that isn't a launch title or a port runs at 1080p.
The differences in hardware achicture and features make games ported from the 360/PS3 run very poorly on the Wii U vs. its actual capability. It is a completely different organism. You never see the Wii U's true capability in a port unless the Wii U is the lead dev platform. It is unlikely that will ever be the case, though(Rayman Legends excluded).
I'm trying not to get my hopes up though the megatons shall be unleashed if this is true.
ExigentContact
Member
I wonder how far along Bayonetta 2 got in development on PC (with the 360 and PS3 as their target platforms) before it was cancelled. I mean, the game looks to be optimized now exclusively for the Wii U's hardware, but I wonder if there are any quirks/niggles left over from it being a last gen project at the outset. Of course, this would all be moot if the only stuff done for the game before its Wii U revival was conceptual stuff, but I'm not in the know enough about the game to make a judgement.
I think when we finally see X in a more release-ready form, that will be one of the games to really make the system sing. In my opinion it's very comparable to what we've seen so far of next-gen games despite having the typical Monolith weakness of average human character models.
I think when we finally see X in a more release-ready form, that will be one of the games to really make the system sing. In my opinion it's very comparable to what we've seen so far of next-gen games despite having the typical Monolith weakness of average human character models.
They are just citing the exact same article you linked last time. That doesnt count as another source.
Personally I belive its 720p until its officially confirmed otherwise and that the console is bit more powerfull than current gen.,
Pikmin was made to run at 720p. It was a port of a Wii game and still had a lot of apparent Wii assets in it. They wouldn't have scaled to 1080p very well.
Everything looks better in 1080 p. Just look at gamecube and Wii games playing on Dolphin.
Things look better in Dolphin because of added anisotropic filtering, anti-aliasing and other enhancements.
Also, most of Pikmin 3's development life was during the period when even Nintendo was having trouble developing for the Wii U. That period is mostly over now though.
I believe this is why all launch games from Nintendo were 720p, but a lot more 1080p games have been showing up from them now.
MrPresident
Banned
That Bayonetta 2 trailer unmistakably shows 720p rendering resoluton. There are many gaming journalists who simply don't know the difference between rendering resolution and output resolution. Black Ops 2 was also promised at 1080p but it still rendered at 720p.
megabytecr
Member
It is going to be interesting if the Wii U is benefited from the early XB1/PS4 ports, as it shares more with those systems than with current consoles. I think it is a mistake to consider the Wii U port of a cross gen game within the current gen because of power and not with XB1/PS4 because of architecture and GPU features.
No, it wasn't. That was misinterpreted(bad wording on Activisions part)
They meant it would be the first true HD COD on Nintendo hardware but said full hd which is another term for 1080p if taken literally. Also, that was stated by the devs not journalist. Its not the same situation at all.
MrPresident
Banned
There is no such thing as scaling well or poorly to a higher resolution unless you're talking about bitmaps. Vectors are vectors and scale universally well to higher resolutions.
The fact that it was a Wii game should have made it a prime candidate due to less intensive assets.
Well something definitely happened.
Especially when he (Iwata) had this whole spiel about the importance of momentum after launch. Iwata has taken a big risk apparently in postponing many games to the latter half of the year, leaving the WiiU with a big drought that has hurt its sales.
So lets hope there was a decision to give certain teams the opportunity to push for 1080p or 60fps, or even both, when they realized the hardware could handle it.
I believe Nintendo stated they want one unique franchise per console, so one 3D Mario bros, one Zelda, one Donkey Kong, etc. That means each title has to be made at a high standard so that they can re-release at a later date on a future console or hand held as a classic.
....uh, yup, they would. Both of the proper next gen consoles are pulling out far more impressive games at launch.
There is no 'magic bullet' that will suddenly make people kneel before the graphical prowess of the Wii U. The best you can hope for is a dismissive acceptance that it is more powerful than the last generation of consoles. A pyrrhic victory, at best.
MrPresident
Banned
That's not the point. Full HD and HD Ready aren't interchangeable terms and has nothing to do with literal interpretation. Activision's publishing CEO called it full HD when it wasn't and many gaming journalists jumped on that.
It had nothing to do with being a port because rendering resolution is independent of CPU speed. Either the system has insufficient bandwidth or (far more likely) the GPU simply isn't fast enough for 1080p in that game in spite of its eDRAM.
It's actually a smart way to operate. I think some publishers really get that and push for games that will be considered "classics" and have legs for decades, and others go for the money now and don't care. I'd say Nintendo are definitely part of the former, Sony as well and MS to a certain extent. In terms of third parties, I'd say Take 2 are probably the best in that regard. They could pump out annual, shitty GTA and BioShock games but they don't.
As I just said, that comment was made by the dev during a demonstration, not journalists, and it was not explicitly stated. That is a different situation.
Also, as I stated multple times in the last 2 pages, the majority of Wii U games that weren't launch games or ports run at 1080p or ran at it until devs opted for more effects instead of higher res. How you have come to the conclusion that the Wii U can't do something that it's been doing consistently on the regular for 6 months is beyond me.
MrPresident
Banned
That's mostly true though it depends on how the games allocate memory. Not all games will make full use of 5gb of RAM in the next gen systems.
Scaling back texture data is easy but it's different when the actual game world uses 2gb of memory. I would imagine a game like GTA6 using that extra memory on world detail other than texture data.
MrPresident
Banned
Because you can't compare different games. Graphically simple games running at 1080p doesn't mean that graphically complex games can.
The sheer fact that 360 ports tend to run at 720p and not 1080p suggests that the performance differential isn't big enough for 1080p. Because, again, rendering resolution is independent of CPU performance so that the porting process has no effect on that.
The logic is flying right over your head. "Banjo-Kazooie runs at 1080p on the XBox 360! All 360 games confirmed to be able to run at 1080p!"
Every game is different.
That doesn't suggest that at all.
Ports are the worst measurement of a consoles capability. As I've said a dozen times, with the exception of PC ports which have no restrictions usually, a port will never run better on a console than it does on the console that was the lead in development. The Wii U has never been the lead platform for development exception for with Rayman Legends.
They would have to pretty much reuild the game from scratch to get it to run at 1080p on the Wii U if it was made on the 360. The GPU architecture and memory structure are too different for straight ports to take full advantage of the hardware capability.
What are you talking about? I never claimed anything that you are inferring.
Even games tailored to the Wuu are running at 720p. Nobody is denying that a handful of them were running at 1080p at some point (Nano and Toki Tori). The system wasn't capable of running the final graphical effects the released 720p versions had, at 1080p.
EDIT: Just because the Wuu has enough memory bandwidth and processing power to run Wind Waker HD at 1080p, doesn't mean it can run Black Ops 2 at 1080p. Nobody is saying more than this but you are trying to beat people up as though they claim 1080p is impossible.
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