Raises hand. Yes I'm one of those people that would say focus on the games and experience. Just be prepared though, because your competitor is going to let the world know for the next 2 months that PS4 is "The Most Powerful Game Console Ever". Stay the course.
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Ars Technica: Penello's XB1 Numbers, Ars "Sniff Test" Analysis
- Thread starter BRocknRolla
- Start date
Raises hand. Yes I'm one of those people that would say focus on the games and experience. Just be prepared though, because your competitor is going to let the world know for the next 2 months that PS4 is "The Most Powerful Game Console Ever". Stay the course.
Spot on!
At this point continuing this discussion is only going to do more damage for MS. It doesn't matter what they say because no one will believe a word anyway (especially coming from pr). Why not let this die down, simply say that the games will speak for themselves, and focus on the real differentiating factors. It baffles me that MS of all people would want to continue this when Sony is fine with letting the graphics debate take a backseat (I've seen more indie stuff than eye candy from Sony lately). It feels like MS just keep walking into a fight that they don't seem equipped to win.
I see you've been reading: http://doddscientifics.com/2013/09/...s-for-advertisers-welcome-to-the-age-of-nuad/
All I'm saying is that you guys should just be patience and wait for the official word from the experts of which Penello has clearly stated he is not one of. Better to have a clean water to begin with rather than muddy water that we may or may not be able to filter properly. Know what I'm saying?
Surface of Me
I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
I like to imagine it was someone that just wanted his boss out of his face and just said yeah to all the questions.
I enjoy hearing about the technology and all that stuff. Even if I don't understand. I am mostly in it for the experiences. If I wanted the uber graphics and everything I would use a enthusiast rig in a temperature controlled environment to maximize frames. Pure and simple, the Xbox platform has more games that I enjoy. For 3-4 years we have had a PS3 int he house and I have played 5 games that I can remember. As long as the One platform competes well with graphics and continues the experiences then the course will continue for me. Day One.
And I feel like AP is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.
Once again, thanks for visiting even if the experience is less than optimal.
And I feel like AP is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.
Once again, thanks for visiting even if the experience is less than optimal.
At many companies, a "Technical Fellow" is a job title given to the highest ranking hardware/software engineers in the company. (As opposed to managers, who get a different series of rankings.)
Usually "Technical Fellows" are people who are giants in the industry. You don't generally get to that rank without having invented an entire part of the computer industry, or an entire branch of computer science, or whatever.
At Microsoft the ranking system for engineers goes something like:
Engineer 1 (freshly hired n00bs usually start here)
Engineer 2
Senior Engineer
Principle Engineer
Partner Engineer
Distinguished Engineer
Technical Fellow
Senior Technical Fellow
Here is a partial list of "Technical Fellows" at Microsoft: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Microsoft_technical_fellows
I think other companies have similar ranking systems.
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
This is amazing. the circus of going round and round. it's they are caught in there own web of crap and now can't get out of it.
So now if I read it correct we are suppose to wait few weeks? To show what! How to do basic math?
This circus would have ended in a little humbleness and honesty. Now MS looks like 3 stooges.
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
To be fair, he admitted to making a mistake and said that's why he doesn't want to continue down this road. He did say he has some answers to the big questions that've been asked, but he doesn't want to step on any more land mines since it's not his field of expertise.
Some sort of explanation is forthcoming, and all we can really do is wait (and hope it doesn't come in the form of one of those awful comparisons done on Larry Hyrb's blog for PS3 and Xbox 360).
Where are all of the people who talk as though I'm a blind Sony devotee when I make balanced, heartfelt statements like this? Psh.
Never underestimate the infinite power of MacLeod.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Should call them "Master Engineer" or something that actually sounds worthy of high praise. When I hear "technical fellow" I imagine my granddad going around tell his friends how I fixed his computer saying. "My grand son, that's a technical fellow I tell ya."
But when he corrected his mistake, The corrected part is now indifferent with there own presentation .
Its really a circus of comedy.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
I find it odd that Microsoft doesn't have a "Master Chief Engineer" amongst their ranks. It just doesn't seem right.
Does Albert know when this will be rectified? And if soon, are there any worthy candidates?
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
I would pay a million pesos to be one of those. If I got to wear the helmet around the office.
It is now your mission to create an Xbox One/Highlander gif. Godspeed.
Exactly why Kinect will never leave its box and no Kinect-mandatory games will be in my house. Sorry Microsoft, I don't want to get scroogled.
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
Lol on it.
hotchips information could have been pre clock speed increase. The difference isn't very big in the numbers
Specs aside, as l don't really know much on all that. I've always felt Microsoft did have a fantastic framework. I'm not a game programmer (but l am a programmer for a bank) and the .Net /XNA environment is just so easy to use.
At a recent TechEd l went to, Microsoft explained the advances they've achieved with Kinect. An example is, previously a developer had to write their own code to detect certain gestures, these are now simply baked into the API. They've gone through all the hard work, taking people of all different ages/ethnicities and translating all those gestures.
I agree that games will definitely be a decided factor for future sales of both consoles, but I never really understood the PC argument. Is there even a pc with a small form factor, similar price, and performance on par to consoles? I have a pretty kick ass rig that I built for BF4 ($1500), but am still probably going to dip into one or even both consoles because in my opinion they are perfect devices for playing on TVs/playing with friends. I dont need MS to feed me BS numbers and facts, I need them to sell me on why I should pay 100 extra for the X1. Thats where I feel that they are stumbling, MS pr are so focused on confusing the masses and assuring everyone that the performance difference is minimal, that its having the opposite effect. Sony hasn't really even been pushing the difference that hard (beyond typical pr speak), MS on the other hand has official PR people joining forums to talk about how we shouldn't believe Sony/Sony always under delivered. It looks desperate and makes them look weaker than they really are. Even if this is not as powerful as a ps4, Its still much more powerful than the 360 and very much next gen. I really feel like all this shows is that they still dont have their act completely together.
the problem with him admitting his "mistake" is this...he says that both on the FORUMS, and AT WORK he was corrected...
yet at the Hot Chip presentation (where big deal, serious tech presentations are made)...MS listed 204 GB/sec as the peak BW of the ESRAM...and not just once...but TWICE according to what i see...
there is some SERIOUSLY wonky stuff being presented and it seems (like it has since Feb) that MS is and has been in full on scramble mode, ever since Cerny said "8GB of GDDR5" and "1.84Tflops"
Thanks for the link. When I tried to Google "Nuad", all I got were links to Thai massage parlors. Maybe I should've tried to Bing it instead.
Andvary
Member
This. Fucking Unbelievable.
The Scientist
Member
One way or the other the HotChips presentation is inconsistent with the number that Albert just posted.
The HotChips presentation has the 109GB/s figure, which is derived from the upclocked 853MHz, but also mentions the 204GB/s figure.
Worse design that just happens to be weaker and just as costly.
It's not entirely Microsoft's fault to be fair, but if you had to blame something it would be the early emphasis on the services, OS features and Kinect. If you have an OS that eats up a whopping 3GB memory footprint, you need at least 8gb for the new generation, unfortunately early on 8gb GDDR5 never existed and 4gb would have only left a paltry 1GB left for games. So they had to go with DDR3, and as such they needed the expensive and large Esram (to make up for the slow DDR3 bandwidth).
Sony instead opted for GDDR5 right fro the get go, and they could afford to be because early on their OS foot print was only 512mb, then later 1gb when they bumped up to 4GB, and supposedly it's now 2GB after their jump to 8GB. Sony and Microsoft just had very different focuses early on, and Microsoft's just happen to be the worse one as far as hardware performance for cost is concerned.
BWJinxing
Member
In the world of cars, if they applied the same logic to combine power, the common hybrid would be well north of 250+ hp but thats not the case. The car nuts would call BS on any manufacturer that tried to do that, as due to the laws of physics is misleading.
Engineering laws should apply here too. I'd be willing to accept prober numbers of peak, combined ONLY with the limitations of hardware factored in.
Once that happens, I will gladly accept your BW numbers, rather they are still greater or less than PS4.
Engineering laws should apply here too. I'd be willing to accept prober numbers of peak, combined ONLY with the limitations of hardware factored in.
Once that happens, I will gladly accept your BW numbers, rather they are still greater or less than PS4.
I've tried to stay out of super technical discussions because my os and architecture background is lacking and I'm certainly not a game dev but as someone who has pretty extensive experience in algorithms . Essentially what it seems is ms offers a certain specific pathline which could have certain advantages and Sony offers a more general approach which allows more freedom .
Yes everything can be optimized for one or the either . And yes a defined path (esram plus ddr3) could work better for certain approaches but ddr5 and extra compute units gives more flexibility .
Saying one is better than the other is somewhat akin to saying cam newton is better than Andrew luck . Yeah newton has better running ability but luck overall is projected better . You can design plays that work better with newton but in general luck has a "projected" better upside . Luck is ps4 newton is xbo vaguely .
A good coach (developer) will figure plays (code optimization/techniques ) to make something work better yes but doesn't show one is always better than the other . Neither does it "prove" one inherently should be better
.
And why I have more faith in ps4 is naughty dog to me is like bellichik cum chip Kelly cum ditka.
And ms has say coughlin good but not fully comparable to what sony has .
Yes everything can be optimized for one or the either . And yes a defined path (esram plus ddr3) could work better for certain approaches but ddr5 and extra compute units gives more flexibility .
Saying one is better than the other is somewhat akin to saying cam newton is better than Andrew luck . Yeah newton has better running ability but luck overall is projected better . You can design plays that work better with newton but in general luck has a "projected" better upside . Luck is ps4 newton is xbo vaguely .
A good coach (developer) will figure plays (code optimization/techniques ) to make something work better yes but doesn't show one is always better than the other . Neither does it "prove" one inherently should be better
.
And why I have more faith in ps4 is naughty dog to me is like bellichik cum chip Kelly cum ditka.
And ms has say coughlin good but not fully comparable to what sony has .
If only Albert could explain things in such simple to understand terms.
FeiRR
Banned
Plus if certain workloads under utilise CUs - perfect opportunity to slap some GPGPU stuff in those idle cycles.
Approaching this from left field...I would ask Albert and the Technical Fellow this...
IF...
adding the BW is legit, not at all misleading...and because the Xbone gas a higher BW than the PS4 and therefore better performance...
THEN....
Why not 8GB of blazing DDR2??
204(218?)GB/sec + 8000+MB/sec > 176GB/sec
So why even bother with DDR3? Clearly it is overkill...
IF...
adding the BW is legit, not at all misleading...and because the Xbone gas a higher BW than the PS4 and therefore better performance...
THEN....
Why not 8GB of blazing DDR2??
204(218?)GB/sec + 8000+MB/sec > 176GB/sec
So why even bother with DDR3? Clearly it is overkill...
ok, the battle between xbone and ps4, looks to me like the battle of midgets for the tallest man on earth award.
I have a question for mr penello:
-the guys that decided that the third xbox doesnt have to be powerful compared to contemporary pc's,
do they still work in the company?
if you want my advice, first thing you should do is to make a formal suggestion to get rid of them!
I have a question for mr penello:
-the guys that decided that the third xbox doesnt have to be powerful compared to contemporary pc's,
do they still work in the company?
if you want my advice, first thing you should do is to make a formal suggestion to get rid of them!
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Its amazing how he tried to fool us when anyone who can do basic math can refute his "opinions" lol. Its like they think we will believe everything they say.
Couldn't disagree more...because to make these consoles as powerful as "contemporary PC's" (and I assume you mean gaming rigs) they would cost significantly more money...
It's the nature of the tech world we live in...you're not going to build a complete box for $400 that TOUCHES the PS4...
If Sony had slapped a $700 price tag on the PS4 it would be exponentially more powerful...but they would have been ran out of the building...
Quadraphonic
Member
A lot of reasons.
1) It rounds off nicely. (As opposed to $510 or $492)
2) They felt it was the best compromise of cost to produce vs profit per console.
3) They are still primarily a software company, and hardware isn't what they always deal with. Sony makes ALL KINDS of gizmos. They are very experienced with manufacturers and parts dealers.
4) They think that current Xbox gamers are more likely to stick with their console brand out of blind loyalty, and will pay extra no matter what for their cheevos and bros.
5) They announced BEFORE the PS4 and figured Sony was going to go for $499 as well and amongst all their 180s, lowering the price BEFORE launch shows weakness. (People would figure to wait even more for ANOTHER price down)
6) PULLING OUT OF MY ASS RUMOR/GUESS: They had figured in the bundled game costs long ago, so that was already factored into the existing price.
TechnicPuppet
Nothing! I said nothing!
For the price difference. I don't really think $499 is expensive I just think that $399 is cheap.
Sony would have easily sold out at $499 with or without a camera.
Sony would have easily sold out at $499 with or without a camera.
Beerman462
Member
You are high on drugs.$100 is a huge difference.
disagree as much as you like, but 7 years ago you where asked to pay 600e for a machine that was a movie format trojan horse and a proprietary ecu to force "exclusiveness" approach, and lots of us paid it.
you must understand, that when planning for 5 years and dozens of millions of products, having a bump in gpu in the bill of materials you dont count it at retail prices.
furthermore, every single piece of gaming software anybody will sell on your god-damn machine, gives you very good royalties money.
having a machine that day1 lags behind pc's, in the long run will loose more money for you on multiplatforms that what you manage to "gain" from being cheap in gpu power.
thats why I said that they need to be removed. their vision is very blurry for my tastes.
I don't think Sony are in the position to sell their console at a loss in the scale of Ps3 again. Also I thought most people complained that the weak Cpu will be more constraining than the Gpu this generation.
I am sure that every single executive suit of each of those companies will have a perfectly nice-to-hear explanation for every single one of their stupid decisions.
my comments had more to do with microsoft's approach, and I just brought up the ps3 as an example of what can be expensive with or without what is really important power-wise.
ps3 did not justify the 600e for its power (although marketing back then told you about nothing but its "awesome power" and how the "other guy" was only ..1,5)
xbone does not justify 500e for its power either.
as i wrote, i think in the long run xbone will loose more than what them suits think they "gained" by being el cheapo, and for one, loosing the prestige of being the strongest machine in the market for over 10 years continuously, is something that will cost them in the market segment that made them, the core gamer market.
(and you can write this down mr penello.)
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