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[Metfanant]

disagree as much as you like, but 7 years ago you where asked to pay 600e for a machine that was a movie format trojan horse and a proprietary ecu to force "exclusiveness" approach, and lots of us paid it.

you must understand, that when planning for 5 years and dozens of millions of products, having a bump in gpu in the bill of materials you dont count it at retail prices.
furthermore, every single piece of gaming software anybody will sell on your god-damn machine, gives you very good royalties money.
having a machine that day1 lags behind pc's, in the long run will loose more money for you on multiplatforms that what you manage to "gain" from being cheap in gpu power.

thats why I said that they need to be removed. their vision is very blurry for my tastes.

So you're honestly going to try and convince me that a more powerful PS4 or Xbone would not have impacted retail costs? You're delusional...

Yes, the PS3 was a Trojan horse for bluray...but the PS4 or Xbone don't have that luxury...not to mention that Sony took a MONSTER loss on PS3's...remember they were selling stand alone bluray players for $900 at the time!

Sony paid DEARLY for its $600 nightmare...I bought one...because I saw the value in bluray...but the VAST majority did not...

The tech world is in a different place than in 2005/2006...there is NO WAY in this market that either MS or Sony could have built a console to compete with high end PC's for a "console price"

 

[p3tran]

lets say that ps4 launched day 1 not at 400, but at 460 or 500, but it had that 60 or 100 euros extra, put exclusively on extra gpu (and/or cpu unfortunately) silicon.

what performance difference would you expect? would these 60-100 more would seem to you money well spend? or cheating you out of 100 more?

 

[Metfanant]

lets say that ps4 launched day 1 not at 400, but at 460 or 500, but it had that 60 or 100 euros extra, put exclusively on extra gpu silicon.

what performance difference would you expect? would these 60-100 more would seem to you money well spend? or cheating you out of 100 more?

Impossible to say in reality...because there is no retail equivalent of the PS4 APU to compare...

But I would imagine that performance would be much better...and no personally the cost wouldn't matter...I would have paid $600 again for the PS4..

but the average consumer spoke last generation...there is just NO WAY either OEM could have gone with that type of a retail price...they would have been crucified!

 

[jusufin]

disagree as much as you like, but 7 years ago you where asked to pay 600e for a machine that was a movie format trojan horse and a proprietary ecu to force "exclusiveness" approach, and lots of us paid it.

you must understand, that when planning for 5 years and dozens of millions of products, having a bump in gpu in the bill of materials you dont count it at retail prices.
furthermore, every single piece of gaming software anybody will sell on your god-damn machine, gives you very good royalties money.
having a machine that day1 lags behind pc's, in the long run will loose more money for you on multiplatforms that what you manage to "gain" from being cheap in gpu power.

thats why I said that they need to be removed. their vision is very blurry for my tastes.

This notion that because Sony and MS chose to use standard parts this time around, they are not next gen is crazy to me. Both systems are at least 10 times their predecessors in terms of power. How is that not enough? You are comparing a pc to a console which alone is a bad comparison. Sony doesn't develop a console with the mindset of outperforming a PC, they make a PS4 to outperform a PS3. It would be impossible to compete against PCs because of the speed at which they evolve. Both have succeeded in giving the consumer the best performance for the price (to a different degree of course).

Back on topic - All I hope for is for Microsoft to get its act together and to stop all this bullshit PR crap (most people are not stupid enough to fall for this garbage anyway), and start selling me on why I should chose the Xbox experience over the PS4’s Price/Power advantage. Its not rocket science, you would think MS would have come up with a better strategy than this to combat the differences. They've known about the specs for months and this is what they come up with (fueling forum wars and a tour)? Hell, if they had just coolly played this off, said the difference would be negligible and gone about their way I would be more inclined to believe them. This stinks of bad PR, and as a fan (DR3 exclusive still has me tempted) I hope they get their shit together.

 

[madmackem]

This is amazing. the circus of going round and round. it's they are caught in there own web of crap and now can't get out of it.

So now if I read it correct we are suppose to wait few weeks? To show what! How to do basic math?

This circus would have ended in a little humbleness and honesty. Now MS looks like 3 stooges.

It how i see it, im getting one day one but the whole fucking thing with this console has been an utter utter mess. Theyve changed the console theyve changed the pr all at the drop of a hat, while trying to spin it this way and that. I have a feeling this pre launch xbox one will be something thats studied in marketing classes in the years to come as a test case of how to mismanage the launch of a product. There seems to be a clear lack of leaders at ms and a clear lack of plan and road map.

 

[fatgamecat]

Hardcore gamers would have liked a $500 PS4 with better specs, but I'm not sure how the general market would react.

As far as GPU memory width, I doubt either system will be bottlenecked by it. It seems like they both have plenty enough to drive 720-1080p games w/ low to modest AA. The only issue might be that X1's DDR3+ESRAM is harder to program for.

I also doubt PS4's CPU will be a system bottleneck even at 1.6GHz (which is still a rumored number at this point), nor will GDDR5 'latency' be an issue to real world games performance.

I do agree with posters here that MS should focus on what makes X1 stand out, such as kinect, hdmi input, and exclusive media/apps/games.

 

[p3tran]

This notion that because Sony and MS chose to use standard parts this time around, they are not next gen is crazy to me. Both systems are at least 10 times their predecessors in terms of power. How is that not enough? You are comparing a pc to a console which alone is a bad comparison. Sony doesn't develop a console with the mindset of outperforming a PC, they make a PS4 to outperform a PS3. It would be impossible to compete against PCs because of the speed at which they evolve. Both have succeeded in giving the consumer the best performance for the price (to a different degree of course).

to put this in better perspective for you, exactly like last generation managed to provide us a HD gaming experience, (either visual candy, or framerate, or sub-res), exactly the same is going to happen this time, but for fullHD.

if you think that a 'nextgen" machine coming out late 2013 and for 5-7 years should have trouble displaying the full monty at native tv screens resolution, then you will get your nextgen machines pretty soon.


"best performance for the price", this for microsoft's console i can only take as a joke.
for their previous machines, yes. for this one, lol.
for sony's, maybe not a joke (because microsoft helped them more than anybody to look good), but not serious either.
basically, my predictions: first party games will evolve to glorified test tube games so they can have lots of visual effects, while multiplatforms will lag pretty soon in comparison to gaming pc's.

 

[silenthill1979]

A little off topic, but some people need to learn the difference between loose and lose. Just sayin

 

[p3tran]

A little off topic, but some people need to learn the difference between loose and lose. Just sayin

sorry for my grammar mistake(s?), i write fairly quickly and dont doublecheck usually, but rest assured, I very well know the difference between lose and loose.
also sorry if it confused you of what my point is.

 

[Metfanant]

to put this in better perspective for you, exactly like last generation managed to provide us a HD gaming experience, (either visual candy, or framerate, or sub-res), exactly the same is going to happen this time, but for fullHD.

if you think that a 'nextgen" machine coming out late 2013 and for 5-7 years should have trouble displaying the full monty at native tv screens resolution, then you will get your nextgen machines pretty soon.


"best performance for the price", this for microsoft's console i can only take as a joke.
for their previous machines, yes. for this one, lol.
for sony's, maybe not a joke (because microsoft helped them more than anybody to look good), but not serious either.
basically, my predictions: first party games will evolve to glorified test tube games so they can have lots of visual effects, while multiplatforms will lag pretty soon in comparison to gaming pc's.

Just before you were talking about if Sony had invested an extra $60-$100 in the GPU...but now you're saying that you're disappointed that multiplats will soon lag behind gaming PCs...

Well you're asking quite a lot now...because even with that $60-$100(retail) of added GPU power you would STILL be lagging behind high end PC cards...

There are PC cards that coat hundreds more than an entire PS4...how exactly do you propose Sony or MS compete in that market while keeping costs reasonable for console consumers?

 

[p3tran]

Just before you were talking about if Sony had invested an extra $60-$100 in the GPU...but now you're saying that you're disappointed that multiplats will soon lag behind gaming PCs...

Well you're asking quite a lot now...because even with that $60-$100(retail) of added GPU power you would STILL be lagging behind high end PC cards...

There are PC cards that coat hundreds more than an entire PS4...how exactly do you propose Sony or MS compete in that market while keeping costs reasonable for console consumers?

maybe I did not explain it very well..
i dont think nobody is asking microsoft and sony to bring out 4k capable gaming machines at console prices.

with these consoles as they are, if they had invested an extra 50-100 on them for graphics,
the difference at 1080p (this is the resolution we care about, tv resolution) would be close to zero or negligible to a gaming pc.
as they turned out, will this be the case?
pretty soon we will see...

 

[jusufin]

to put this in better perspective for you, exactly like last generation managed to provide us a HD gaming experience, (either visual candy, or framerate, or sub-res), exactly the same is going to happen this time, but for fullHD.

if you think that a 'nextgen" machine coming out late 2013 and for 5-7 years should have trouble displaying the full monty at native tv screens resolution, then you will get your nextgen machines pretty soon.


"best performance for the price", this for microsoft's console i can only take as a joke.
for their previous machines, yes. for this one, lol.
for sony's, maybe not a joke (because microsoft helped them more than anybody to look good), but not serious either.
basically, my predictions: first party games will evolve to glorified test tube games so they can have lots of visual effects, while multiplatforms will lag pretty soon in comparison to gaming pc's.

The resolution thing is in my opinion devs just trying to get the most bang for the buck. It doesn't matter what the specs are, If the devs prioritize graphics they will have to make concessions in other areas. the problem isn’t that developers can't get great visuals at 60fps 1080p, the problem is that they can get better visuals at lower frames and res (really just developer choice not hardware constraints). My point is just because you see no value in these systems doesn't mean there isn't one. As far as visual fidelity in comparison to pc, I personally look at stuff like the order or the sorcerer tech demo Sony released and come away very impressed. Granted nothing else as wowed me, but others will find other things that wow them, its all subjective but they are both capable in comparison to last gen (PS4 more so obviously).

 

[Metfanant]

maybe I did not explain it very well..
i dont think nobody is asking microsoft and sony to bring out 4k capable gaming machines at console prices.

with these consoles as they are, if they had invested an extra 50-100 on them for graphics,
the difference at 1080p (this is the resolution we care about, tv resolution) would be close to zero or negligible to a gaming pc.
as they turned out, will this be the case?
pretty soon we will see...

I think however that you're SERIOUSLY overestimating the willingness of the general consumer to support another $600 launch...or...for the OEM's to front such monster losses again...

 

[Whitechocolatekrispies]

I was getting an impression that some folks were thinking that Technical Fellow is a made up designation and being made into a meme of sorts.

example:

Is funny because people that are meant to actually fundamentally understand the technology in their main product... Are rare.

That's like a (yes another car reference) ferrari salesmen saying, we're not quite sure how fast this ferrari is, I just got told by one of our very rare engineers that it should be faster than a mcclaren.

Surely most technical employees at xbox could tell you just how fast their product is. Just like any engineer and salesmen could tell you how fast their cars are.

 

[szaromir]

maybe I did not explain it very well..
i dont think nobody is asking microsoft and sony to bring out 4k capable gaming machines at console prices.

with these consoles as they are, if they had invested an extra 50-100 on them for graphics,
the difference at 1080p (this is the resolution we care about, tv resolution) would be close to zero or negligible to a gaming pc.
as they turned out, will this be the case?
pretty soon we will see...

You have to draw the line in the sand at one point or another. Apparently for both MS and Sony it meant a 100-120 watt box and $400-$500 pricepoints. More than that and it's not quite feasible for multimedia purposes, which is the market both are actively chasing. As others already said, both are perfectly capable of rendering 1080p images, it's about whether or not developers will be interested in that target.

basically, my predictions: first party games will evolve to glorified test tube games so they can have lots of visual effects, while multiplatforms will lag pretty soon in comparison to gaming pc's.

That's certainly a danger. However, if that happens, the audience will be at fault as much as the 1st party publishers.

 

[p3tran]

I think however that you're SERIOUSLY overestimating the willingness of the general consumer to support another $600 launch...or...for the OEM's to front such monster losses again...

I cannot disagree with this, its their willingness, their visions.
thats what i originally wrote: their vision not very compatible to my vision/wants.
but bottom line, its my wallet and your wallet.


I am still getting both consoles at launch, even though they are not even available in my country.
but this time I will be spending on them only what they are "worthier" to me than the other options that exist, from start 'till end.
and from what i understand from people around me, i will not be the only one.
so lets see how this stacks up against their willingness and vision to spend when fabricating something that will make them money for many years..



p.s. a ferrari salesman usually has to pitch to his potential buyer more about the hand-stiched-to-order leather seams on the seats to make the sale, than anything about how the engine works.

 

[Ponn]

lets say that ps4 launched day 1 not at 400, but at 460 or 500, but it had that 60 or 100 euros extra, put exclusively on extra gpu (and/or cpu unfortunately) silicon.

what performance difference would you expect? would these 60-100 more would seem to you money well spend? or cheating you out of 100 more?

Not a difference that the average consumer can spot or care to pay extra for. Those really hungry for those fps and the new graphical terms already have an option in pc and will never be satisfied two years down the road no matter what they throw in a 600 box. Sony learned this lesson, hard, while Wii sold like gangbusters. Console always has been and always will be a different beast from pc despite the crossovers. Right now on GAF these numbers are a huge deal, in Wally World they mean jack shit.

 

[p3tran]

Not a difference that the average consumer can spot or care to pay extra for. Those really hungry for those fps and the new graphical terms already have an option in pc and will never be satisfied two years down the road no matter what they throw in a 600 box.

correct.
what i said is that microsoft is going to have a cost in core gamers.
you know, those of us that gave 360 a 6 game attach rate out of the gate.. those who spend the moniez..

and the problem is, back when 360 launched, you could be ok without going pc and for more than 2 years. yes, 8800gt was out one year after 360 was and was pretty more powerful, but then again if you have a 770gtx right now you are not dying to get a titan, especially if you game only at single screen 1080p. right?
does this hold now? for day1 not even for two years down the road..

 

[jcm]

disagree as much as you like, but 7 years ago you where asked to pay 600e for a machine that was a movie format trojan horse and a proprietary ecu to force "exclusiveness" approach, and lots of us paid it.

you must understand, that when planning for 5 years and dozens of millions of products, having a bump in gpu in the bill of materials you dont count it at retail prices.
furthermore, every single piece of gaming software anybody will sell on your god-damn machine, gives you very good royalties money.
having a machine that day1 lags behind pc's, in the long run will loose more money for you on multiplatforms that what you manage to "gain" from being cheap in gpu power.

thats why I said that they need to be removed. their vision is very blurry for my tastes.

But the PS3 sold poorly at $600; so poorly that Sony was forced into a too-early price cut, and wound up piling even more losses onto their enormous launch costs. Choosing to sell expensive custom hardware cost Sony billions of dollars.

The PS3 is a high-price cautionary tale, not proof that price doesn't matter.

 

[Ushae]

MS need to play to their strengths which would be apps, UI and Kinect. I also think they need to address the value of Xbox Gold, specifically Games with Gold and the payway that most people dislike. If they either sweetened the pot by discounting subscriptions with Netflix etc or removing the need for the sub people would praise it. People aren't stupid, they know a good deal when they see one.

I really like Sony's approach to this next generation, they've got real character that people can identify with, a good price and great reputation with first party games. These are qualities MS should be striving for, Sony pulled themselves out of the shitter and worked their bollocks off to put the shine back onto the PS brand. Bravo Sony, bravo.

MS needs to do the same and work it back. The games, services and (inevitable) price drop is what's needed to happen. The main thing I'd want from this as an informed consumer is that the competition remain.

 

[jusufin]

correct.
what i said is that microsoft is going to have a cost in core gamers.
you know, those of us that gave 360 a 6 game attach rate out of the gate.. those who spend the moniez..

and the problem is, back when 360 launched, you could be ok without going pc and for more than 2 years. yes, 8800gt was out one year after 360 was and was pretty more powerful, but then again if you have a 770gtx right now you are not dying to get a titan, especially if you game only at single screen 1080p. right?
does this hold now? for day1 not even for two years down the road..

I think the problem is that you are looking at the PC as being on the same timeline as consoles, they never have been. PC is a different beast altogether, it evolves at a different pace than consoles. Consoles makers consider Price, Size, and Performance to be of importance when designing. PCs evolve to meet the needs of its market, which is much more broad than a specialized gaming machine. You will still see games that look better than pc this gen same as last gen because of the nature of the platforms. PS3/360 weren't some revolutionary devices for their time, they looked better for the same reason you will see consoles look better this gen, specialization. PC games are created for a baseline because they vary, consoles do not have that constraint, thus nothing as changed.

 

[Nightengale]

MS need to play to their strengths which would be apps, UI and Kinect.

This part of their strength just seems insane to me.

Given how much they were touting their kernel compatibility with the Windows ecosystem, you'd expect them to announce something like how XB1 could work with W8 apps, or something similar at least.

They've been dead-silent on apps, even at BUILD. No real showcase of what can non-game developers expect, or how they're going to bring their apps over.

MS, wasn't part of the reason you pissed off your entire WP7 userbase was so that you could unify your kernel, and build an ecosystem where apps are easily ported/highly compatible between everything? Where the hell is that? Never mind Xbox, W8 and WP8 are still struggling to have that compatibility.

 

[p3tran]

But the PS3 sold poorly at $600; so poorly that Sony was forced into a too-early price cut, and wound up piling even more losses onto their enormous launch costs. Choosing to sell expensive custom hardware cost Sony billions of dollars.

The PS3 is a high-price cautionary tale, not proof that price doesn't matter.

it sold poor at 600 because it did not contain 600 euros worth of gaming power, especially when you could get a xbox for 300 since a year before!

exactly like this time console-only gamers are going to judge the price/power difference between xbone and ps4, and especially if they are getting only one system.
we wrote this above.
example: I have many xboxlive friends that from 360-only, they are going ps4-only this gen, as they see that they probably are getting a better deal there, and plan to only buy one console.
people are not as stupid as some highly paid suits sometimes think..


but anyway, point is I dont think that ps3 should be set as a canon example for price.
it was pushing for more stuff than just "better games for us".
imo a 500 or even 600 console packed with the best there is/best you can do for gaming, could sell very big in the core market for a year or two, h/w and s/w combined, then as costs/prices get lower you can make it available to wide audience while still being fucking good. and you dont even need advertizing. real word of mouth would do wonders.
instead, you have consoles that feel "naked" without a half a billion marketing campaign to accompany them in their launch...even after 8 years of no new products in the market..

 

[mrklaw]

MS need to play to their strengths which would be apps, UI and Kinect. I also think they need to address the value of Xbox Gold, specifically Games with Gold and the payway that most people dislike. If they either sweetened the pot by discounting subscriptions with Netflix etc or removing the need for the sub people would praise it. People aren't stupid, they know a good deal when they see one.

I really like Sony's approach to this next generation, they've got real character that people can identify with, a good price and great reputation with first party games. These are qualities MS should be striving for, Sony pulled themselves out of the shitter and worked their bollocks off to put the shine back onto the PS brand. Bravo Sony, bravo.

MS needs to do the same and work it back. The games, services and (inevitable) price drop is what's needed to happen. The main thing I'd want from this as an informed consumer is that the competition remain.

agree. It really isn't rocket science level stuff.

 

[szaromir]

instead, you have consoles that feel "naked" without a half a billion marketing campaign to accompany them in their launch...even after 8 years of no new products in the market..

It's only true if someone sees PC gaming as a viable alternative, which many sadly don't. By itself Xbone and especially PS4 are big updates over PS360, eg. the graphics card equivalent to what you can find in PS4 runs Batman Arkham Asylum at 1080p120, compared to 720p30 on PS3. For the mass market the leap is your typical leap between generations, albeit one they had to wait long for.

For myself, I'm sticking to PC and will wait and see how the new console platforms mature. They don't have any enticing content at launch anyway.

 

[Freki]

First of all thanks for answering

Yes, it should be. And I was quickly corrected (both on the forum and from people at the office) for writing the wrong number.

The challenge with the NeoGAF format is that, because threads move so fast, posts disappear or get buried so people aren't reading everything. Maybe this part got lost:

I've stated - there is no possible way for one single person to know every detail about our platform. That means I need to go get the answers to the questions you guys ask sometimes. There's a lot I know first hand, and a lot I need to get updated on.

Well I hope the engineers who put together the hotchip presentation do know the numbers at least. They used 109GB/s and 204GB/s as well.

So people understand - I'm not dodging any of the follow-up. I actually stated the other night - there are a handful of people who asked some really legitimate follow-ups to understand what I posted. And I honestly said - I'm not the guy to answer at that level of detail. Out of respect for the people who are genuinely curious to learn how we derived those numbers, and to get the most technically accurate answers - the best course is to have the answers come from those engineers directly.

So we're working now on the best format to do that.

I still stand by what I stated (except for the aforementioned 204/218). In fact, some really interesting threads were going back and forth giving me even more excruciating detail behind those numbers based on the questions people asked.

I doubt it will take the format of an AMA, but I've collected a bunch of the follow-up questions. It may take a few weeks, but we'll be following-up on this for sure.

So now hopefully people will understand if I don't chime in further on these threads. If I've learned one thing from these last few days, it's that "Penello's Miracle Equations" will only be open for topics I have first-hand knowledge of. If I don't, I'm going to be more explicit about that in the future.

It's fine if you take your time to gather up all the answers. I'd ask you and your colleagues at MS to refrain from speaking of balance between the Xbox One and the PS4 though. Downplaying the advantage of the PS4 will always lead back to what we all could witness the last seven days or so...

 

[jcm]

it sold poor at 600 because it did not contain 600 euros worth of gaming power, especially when you could get a xbox for 300 since a year before!

I think it sold poorly because most people don't want to ay 600 euros for a gaming console, period.

 

[jusufin]

It's only true if someone sees PC gaming as a viable alternative, which many sadly don't. By itself Xbone and especially PS4 are big updates over PS360, eg. the graphics card equivalent to what you can find in PS4 runs Batman Arkham Asylum at 1080p120, compared to 720p30 on PS3. For the mass market the leap is your typical leap between generations, albeit one they had to wait long for.

For myself, I'm sticking to PC and will wait and see how the new console platforms mature. They don't have any enticing content at launch anyway.

Nothing has really changed, consoles will have exclusive games in the first years that look like a leap in graphics thanks to the platform advantages, and PC games will get a baseline graphics increase and will steadily start looking better as time goes on. It really depends on what you can afford and what you like as a person. Most of the people I know (subjective) have laptops and definitely don’t want to spend money on a large gaming rig. I had a friend over last week who just got back from Europe and wanted to know about the new consoles since he was gone at the time of the reveal. He saw my gaming PC and couldn't fathom spending that much money for slightly better graphics. It’s not like he was envious either, this guy is loaded. When I showed him the nvidia tech demo (new dawn), his words to me where “she’s hot” and “nerd”. Even though that story is subjective, there are plenty of people just like him that just want to sit down, marvel at the new graphics (since they’ve been gaming on 7 year hardware previously), put a disk in, and play the new Forza/GT on their tv without hassle.

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

Albert's novel take on adding up all the numbers to come to a huge bandwidth total just reminded me of how Atari advertised the Jaguar as the only 64-bit console, by adding together the 32bit 68000 CPU and the 32bit GPU.

As meaningless as it is, Atari claimed the Jaguar as 64 bits machine because both blitter and object processor worked at 64 bit.

Regarding M68k, there is a hot debate, even today, about considering it as 32 bit (registers) or 16 (bus and ALU).

Is legit for MS to claim that total bandwidth because GPU can access both pools simultaneously. It would be a different history if it couldn't.

 

[KidBeta]

As meaningless as it is, Atari claimed the Jaguar as 64 bits machine because both blitter and object processor worked at 64 bit.

Regarding M68k, there is a hot debate, even today, about considering it as 32 bit (registers) or 16 (bus and ALU).

Is legit for MS to claim that total bandwidth because GPU can access both pools simultaneously. It would be a different history if it couldn't.

Whilst it may be able to read from both pools at the same time, it cannot write to both, and the write speed is still limited to 108GB/s.

 

[Ponn]

I think it sold poorly because most people don't want to ay 600 euros for a gaming console, period.

Bingo, but this is the point PC gamers have a hard time acceptin because of their own wants and needs. If a person IS willing to pay 600 or more just to have a powerful console then they are going, or should be going PC in the first place. The average console gamer is not looking at pc games 2 years into their purchase and saying "geez i really wish i could pay $200+ for a new graphics card to make my games look like that" They have a different perspective and wants. They want to buy the new Madden or CoD, pop it in and just play it every year. If graphics were a priority you would see console sales drop off a cliff after 2 years of release.

Partially why im intriqued to see how well a Steambox would actually do in the console market but thats another thread.

 

[w00zey]

Technology has doubled so fast and there are cards by themselves that cost more than a ps4. I don't know how any sane person can expect a ps4 to be a high end pc at 400.

Though I also don't know how people can assume it will be irrelevant in a couple years. Consoles have always seemed different because th can program specially for exact hardware in front of every consumer with that particular console.

 

[twobear]

Well said.

The irony of course is that, no matter what you do, you can't win sometimes. I'm one person with an opinion posting against the (often times differing) opinions of tens-of-thousands.

My first discussions about this - WAY back when we unveiled the console, was focused exactly on this point. I said nearly the same things you are suggesting - let's judge the games, the experiences, what's different - that will decide.

You can imagine that didn't go over well - and it evolved over time into the question around why we believe our real-world performance will be nearly the same.

So I find it funny (and I guess somewhat satisfying) that people are suggesting the conversation gets back to the games.

But you're totally right - the games and experiences will sell the systems, and nobody will get to see both players hands until November.

Hi Albert,

When people said that they want to know about the technical specifications, they did not mean 'try to mislead us with inflated specifications in order to make yourself seem as good as the competition' (excepting a small number of people whose only interest is either in your merely confirming to them that their fave (that is, Sony) is the best, or to make you tie yourself in the knots that you have now tied yourself in). They meant that they just want to know technical information about the console.

Here are a couple of things that technically-minded people might like to actually know about the console:

- What were your design goals? Presumably, gaming was not your top priority, as is the case with Sony. So what was? What led you to take the design decisions that you took? There must have been good reasons.

- Why are you apparently reserving substantial system resources for the OS? As a gaming forum, it makes a lot of people antsy (although FWIW, not me, I fuckin' love my iPhone) to think that the OS on their console is anything less than a completely bare minimum game-centred OS—so why have you got three? Again, I'm assuming that there's a good reason, so what is it? Do you think that the OS setup is going to be a big benefit? Why?

The second is particularly interesting, at least to me, because one would expect Microsoft, one of the largest software companies in the world, to be explaining what the software on the Xbone is actually capable of. One of my favourite things about the 360 is that the operating system on the console wasn't a stripped-down, barebones system—it was a genuine leap over the capabilities of any previous console. So far all we know is that it can snap stuff, but is there anything else it can do that might interest me? What are the limits of the snap feature, can any app do it or only MS ones? What are the kinds of usage scenarios you might get from it? Why should I care about snap if I don't watch NFL? What kinds of apps will run on Xbone, and how can I interact with them while in-game?

Please please please please please stop either lying to us or trying to convince us that the obvious hardware deficit between PS4 and Xbone doesn't exist. Nobody believes you. Start talking about reasons to buy an Xbone.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Hi Albert,

When people said that they want to know about the technical specifications, they did not mean 'try to mislead us with inflated specifications in order to make yourself seem as good as the competition' (excepting a small number of people whose only interest is either in your merely confirming to them that their fave (that is, Sony) is the best, or to make you tie yourself in the knots that you have now tied yourself in). They meant that they just want to know technical information about the console.

Here are a couple of things that technically-minded people might like to actually know about the console:

- What were your design goals? Presumably, gaming was not your top priority, as is the case with Sony. So what was? What led you to take the design decisions that you took? There must have been good reasons.

- Why are you apparently reserving substantial system resources for the OS? As a gaming forum, it makes a lot of people antsy (although FWIW, not me, I fuckin' love my iPhone) to think that the OS on their console is anything less than a completely bare minimum game-centred OS—so why have you got three? Again, I'm assuming that there's a good reason, so what is it? Do you think that the OS setup is going to be a big benefit? Why?

The second is particularly interesting, at least to me, because one would expect Microsoft, one of the largest software companies in the world, to be explaining what the software on the Xbone is actually capable of. One of my favourite things about the 360 is that the operating system on the console wasn't a stripped-down, barebones system—it was a genuine leap over the capabilities of any previous console. So far all we know is that it can snap stuff, but is there anything else it can do that might interest me? What are the limits of the snap feature, can any app do it or only MS ones? What are the kinds of usage scenarios you might get from it? Why should I care about snap if I don't watch NFL? What kinds of apps will run on Xbone, and how can I interact with them while in-game?

Please please please please please stop either lying to us or trying to convince us that the obvious hardware deficit between PS4 and Xbone doesn't exist. Nobody believes you. Start talking about reasons to buy an Xbone.

Preferably not here. I don't want to be marketed on GAF by MSFT PR. They have their own places to sell their product.

 

[Chumpion]

I hear MS PR has their own "sniff test"... before a press conference, if you do a line that is exactly the length of an XB1, then, if you feel like you'd OD if you do more... it's pretty good coke.

 

[AranhaHunter]

so, ps4 is faster, but xbone is ..stronger?



and op, who da fuck is dat 'ars' dude? never heard of him.



seriously now, i cant wait for next gen multiplats

Spoiler

although looks like I'll be playing them on pc haha

I think he's saying something like this:

Group A has 12 people, each person is able to carry 1 bag from the grocery store to the car every 5 seconds.
Group B has 18 people; each person is able to carry 1 bag from the grocery store to the car every 6 seconds.

Group A is able to carry 144 bags to the car per minute, or 8640 bags per hour.
Group B is able to carry 180 bags to the car per minute, or 10800 bags per hour.

Group B is ~25% more efficient than Group A.

I used 5 and 6 seconds due to easiness of calculation. That is greater than a 6% increase. Also, even though I wouldn't expect it, there's nothing stopping Sony from increasing the speed of the CUs prior to launch, just like MS did.

 

[twobear]

Preferably not here. I don't want to be marketed on GAF by MSFT PR. They have their own places to sell their product.

Yes, I meant in general.

Presumably they're only on the forum for PR though, so short of wanting the MS guys to leave GAF entirely (which you might, this view seems not-illegitimate to me), you're already being marketed at (albeit badly).

 

[beast786]

I hear MS PR has their own "sniff test"... before a press conference, if you do a line that is exactly the length of an XB1, then, if you feel like you'd OD if you do more... it's pretty good coke.

 

[RedNumberFive]

Preferably not here. I don't want to be marketed on GAF by MSFT PR. They have their own places to sell their product.

Agreed. They need to keep the marketing on their own dashboard.

 

[mrklaw]

Hi Albert,

When people said that they want to know about the technical specifications, they did not mean 'try to mislead us with inflated specifications in order to make yourself seem as good as the competition' (excepting a small number of people whose only interest is either in your merely confirming to them that their fave (that is, Sony) is the best, or to make you tie yourself in the knots that you have now tied yourself in). They meant that they just want to know technical information about the console.

Here are a couple of things that technically-minded people might like to actually know about the console:

- What were your design goals? Presumably, gaming was not your top priority, as is the case with Sony. So what was? What led you to take the design decisions that you took? There must have been good reasons.

- Why are you apparently reserving substantial system resources for the OS? As a gaming forum, it makes a lot of people antsy (although FWIW, not me, I fuckin' love my iPhone) to think that the OS on their console is anything less than a completely bare minimum game-centred OS—so why have you got three? Again, I'm assuming that there's a good reason, so what is it? Do you think that the OS setup is going to be a big benefit? Why?

The second is particularly interesting, at least to me, because one would expect Microsoft, one of the largest software companies in the world, to be explaining what the software on the Xbone is actually capable of. One of my favourite things about the 360 is that the operating system on the console wasn't a stripped-down, barebones system—it was a genuine leap over the capabilities of any previous console. So far all we know is that it can snap stuff, but is there anything else it can do that might interest me? What are the limits of the snap feature, can any app do it or only MS ones? What are the kinds of usage scenarios you might get from it? Why should I care about snap if I don't watch NFL? What kinds of apps will run on Xbone, and how can I interact with them while in-game?

Please please please please please stop either lying to us or trying to convince us that the obvious hardware deficit between PS4 and Xbone doesn't exist. Nobody believes you. Start talking about reasons to buy an Xbone.

the funny thing (for me) is there are tons of things they could talk about that would make us interested. Personally, if they said that xbox one supported standard Windows 8 (or surface based windows 8) apps with minimal effort by developers, and that as a result we'd have hundreds of apps to choose from - that would instantly make me 100% more interested as that could mean plex, or TVcatchup, or various media apps that I'd find more useful than what MS is baking in themselves.

but nothing. I guess now is the quiet moment before launch, and those kinds of things probably won't come out until after the noise of the launch.

 

[eastmen]

Last time they talked about reasons to buy a xbox one neogaf went into a bitch fest.

Tv features , foot ball features , new live features and of course the games. But it seems no one on this forum or very few want to actually hear about those features so they just start whinning and making fun of ms.

People complained and said game sharing couldnt work it had to be just demos. We dont want this drm. Then valve comes out with 10 person game sharing and everyone loves it.

Ms is damned if they do and damned if they dont im suprised they actually come here any more. I wouldnt if I were them

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

I hear MS PR has their own "sniff test"... before a press conference, if you do a line that is exactly the length of an XB1, then, if you feel like you'd OD if you do more... it's pretty good coke.

/thread

 

[Finalizer]

Then valve comes out with 10 person game sharing and everyone loves it.

Mite b 'cause they don't saddle it with always-online DRM, hm?

Or perhaps it might have helped in Valve's case that they actually had the brilliant idea to have an up-front detailed explanation as to how the entire system works, including an FAQ behind its workings; yeah having those handy probably helped people warm up more to Valve's implementation.

 

[twobear]

At least Valve have demonstrated that the family sharing idea is possible in practice, which at least gives us reason to believe MS were doing it/could still do it.

 

[beast786]

Last time they talked about reasons to buy a xbox one neogaf went into a bitch fest.

Tv features , foot ball features , new live features and of course the games. But it seems no one on this forum or very few want to actually hear about those features so they just start whinning and making fun of ms.

People complained and said game sharing couldnt work it had to be just demos. We dont want this drm. Then valve comes out with 10 person game sharing and everyone loves it.

Ms is damned if they do and damned if they dont im suprised they actually come here any more. I wouldnt if I were them

yea, its obvious MS is the victim here.

 

[46w500]

yea, its obvious MS is the victim here.

I think eastmen hit the nail on the head. MS is damned if they do, damned if they don't. The torches are already raised and it seems some people want to come back with a head on the pike.

I'm really not understanding it. Some of the responses in this thread are so vitriolic, crass, and disrespectful. I guess that's internet anonymity for ya.

 

[eastmen]

Mite b 'cause they don't saddle it with always-online DRM, hm?

Its not allways on. Its once every 24 hours and for a console that isn't portable that is hardly a problem. The number of people in 2013 who don't have acess to the internet 24/7 in their house is going to be a very tiny amount .

yea, its obvious MS is the victim here.

If that's what you want to get from my post. However its telling that you don't actually want to respond to the post's points because you know its exactly how neogaf will react.

Its the way the forum has largely acted since the unveil

I think eastmen hit the nail on the head. MS is damned if they do, damned if they don't. The torches are already raised and it seems some people want to come back with a head on the pike.

I'm really not understanding it. Some of the responses in this thread are so vitriolic, crass, and disrespectful. I guess that's internet anonymity for ya.

The internet has evolved for the worse. I remember back waiting for other launches of consoles. Even the xbox 360 people were more willing to wait for information . Now posters get upset if they don't know everything about everything 5 minutes ago.

I used to come to this forum for news on games and stuff. now I have to search through dozens of rants and temper tantrums to find any useful information.

Even when we get industry insiders now we just attack them and make fun of them. All that is going to do is start to remove any relevance this forum has gained in the past few years. I know if I were in this industry I would not come to this forum to share information or shed more light on what I was doing.

 

[Serenity]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he claim Albert say he ran his post by the "technical fellow" and that all the info was correct. But now confronted with the math he says he was corrected and that in fact the bandwidth should be 218 Gb/s which people have been saying for months. On top of that the hotchips presentation also lists 204 Gb/s. And I still want an explanation on how they didn't know their esram was capable of simultaneous read and writes before hand. Just doesn't jive unless this new figure for simultaneous read and writes is just in the best case scenario under the most specific of conditions in which case it would be a pretty meaningless measure.


Also now that Albert and corrected his statement will his followers acknowledge that maybe just maybe the people questioning him might know a thing or two about hardware and engineering?

 

[beast786]

I think eastmen hit the nail on the head. MS is damned if they do, damned if they don't. The torches are already raised and it seems some people want to come back with a head on the pike.

I'm really not understanding it. Some of the rB]responses in this thread are so vitriolic, crass, and disrespectful. I guess that's internet anonymity for ya.[[/B]

I would appreciate if you give me link of them.

Also, did you read the article? someone is straight us making crap up that are disingenuous and posting needs to be ridiculed .

 

[Finalizer]

Its not allways on. Its once every 24 hours

Oh deary me, sorry for missing this important distinction.

The number of people in 2013 who don't have acess to the internet 24/7 in their house is going to be a very tiny amount .

"Fortunately we have a product for people who aren't able to get some form of connectivity; it's called Xbox 360."

You might recall this line of thinking got MS into trouble last time, eh?

But seriously though, stop with the Steam comparisons already. You do it every thread. It's no less disingenuous every time you bring it up. Stop.