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[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

It comes down to what motivates you. People yelling at me or ones with full of energy hypes me up which makes me want to work that much harder. I'm perfectly fine with people getting up in my face while others are not. You just have to find with what works for you.

Yes, I totally understand that, it is human nature to feel pain and humiliation or whatever it is sometimes we need to push us to get farther in life (or get wherever the fuck we want to be in our heads ) . if that was not true S&M mistresses/misters wouldn't exists. etc.

My argument is unless that person asks for you to "yell" at them and "get right up in their face" Generally it's better practice to avoid that kind of confrontation with people to avoid triggering their negative emotions (anger etc.) And I don;t even care if the subject demands that kind of immediate "motivational" talk:

We tend to think that it's ok to yell at people and call em out for being unhealthy and fat and this and that, our defense is we are only doing them a favor by pointing out their obesity, calling out on their laziness etc... And honestly most of the time I have no problem with this approach..

The problem is not realizing where we stand with our audience: Who are you to that person you are belittling and humiliating? Are you in any position to point your finger at them? Does your physically active and healthy lifestyle merits you enough "authority" to talk down on or question their lives?

How much of his/her trust do you have to talk to them that way? I think this is the main and important discussion here.

 

[Wazzy]

Great. There's nothing negative about her message, and those reading it that way have their own issues to work through unrelated to her picture.

Confrontational and negative aren't the same thing.

Accusing people of making excuses is pretty damn negative.

 

[SeanR1221]

Accusing people of making excuses is pretty damn negative.

To you it's negative.

When I started taking training seriously, my best sessions were with my lifting buddy pushing me. The yelling. The intensity. There's nothing coddling about it.

 

[Jayge]

Like Blamespace said a few pages back though: You can argue she is not a condescending woman, you can argue her message is what it is, and it is up to the reader to interpret it however they chose to see it. Blah, blah, blah...

At the end of the day she comes off as someone I don't want to associate with, nor would I allow my wife to be part of her fitness program etc. She may be really passionate and good at her job (fitness training for moms) or whatever the fuk she is promoting with all those links on her poster... Bottom line, she rubs me the wrong way.. You could argue that it is my own insecurities that are making me see her under that light: And I will argue with you that life's too short to try to be patient with people who do not give you a first good impression, I will look else where, thanks.

You wouldn't allow your wife to make her own choice about maintaining her body? What?

 

[Petrie]

Accusing people of making excuses is pretty damn negative.

She doesn't accuse. She asks a question. A valid one.

Your own insecurities are where you see an excuse.

 

[Wazzy]

To you it's negative.

When I started taking training seriously, my best sessions were with my lifting buddy pushing me. The yelling. The intensity. There's nothing coddling about it.

For you maybe. For many, it obviously isn't working and isn't something to be looked at as positive.

I used to be in pretty bad shape. I ate horribly, didn't exercise, etc. Thankfully I was lucky enough to have a body that didn't make me gain massive amounts of weight from the way I ate. I made the decision to turn things around myself but the few things that constantly kept me going were positive reinforcement. Negative never helped.

She doesn't accuse. She asks a question. A valid one.

Your own insecurities are where you see an excuse.

No she doesn't. A message like that doesn't take into account job, mental health, body types, etc. It's just assuming that anyone overweight is that way out of laziness.

 

[RM8]

Like a lot of us don't make excuses to not work out, lol.

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

If you are conscious of the fact that your insecurity is what's making you feel this way, you're not only clouding your judgement of this person, but you're also then making life choices based on your clouded judgement.

If you want to live life like that, go ahead, but I feel bad for anybody that does nothing wrong whatsoever and 'rubs you the wrong way' and comes off worse for it. Hopefully you're not in charge of hiring people or anything like that.

You're taking things waaay out of context I am afraid, (We are after all a product of our environment and our own past personal experiences/History) So you cannot point your finger at me and say you are a "coward" for (pre) judging that person the way you did, just because I am not. Ironically you are also judging me.

If I am willing to dedicate hours of my very busy week and dollars of my hard earned money on someone to better my lifestyle, I really want to feel comfortable with that person, and if I cannot do that after the first 15 minutes of meeting them, obviously doubts are going to be raised in my head, right? I will look for other options... (Same reason we do not buy a car the first dealership we walk into)

This same approach MAY apply or may NOT apply to hiring people, but that is totally besides the point, it is just not as black and white as you are painting it to be.

You wouldn't allow your wife to make her own choice about maintaining her body? What?

I would simply discourage her from dealing with someone like the woman on the poster, if she approached me for a second opinion, yes.

 

[CrankyJay]

No she doesn't. A message like that doesn't take into account job, mental health, body types, etc. It's just assuming that anyone overweight is that way out of laziness.

I have to ask...did you read the entire OP? She claims to have two jobs, 3 children, genetic problems, bullemia...

 

[SeanR1221]

For you maybe. For many, it obviously isn't working and isn't something to be looked at as positive.

I used to be in pretty bad shape. I ate horribly, didn't exercise, etc. Thankfully I was lucky enough to have a body that didn't make me gain massive amounts of weight from the way I ate. I made the decision to turn things around myself but the few things that constantly kept me going were positive reinforcement. Negative never helped.



No she doesn't. A message like that doesn't take into account job, mental health, body types, etc. It's just assuming that anyone overweight is that way out of laziness.

Oof. No one understands positive reinforcement it seems.

Her message got Cranky back in the fitness thread after a huge hiatus. To him, Her message was a positive reinforcement.

 

[Opiate]

She doesn't accuse. She asks a question. A valid one.

Your own insecurities are where you see an excuse.

She definitely does accuse, and that isn't particularly open to denotational interpretation.

"Excuse" is a word that necessarily implies a fault. It is precisely this connotation that distinguishes it from synonyms like "reason" or even "explanation," which falls between the two extremes.

Accusing someone is literally the process of charging someone with a fault or wrongdoing.

Again, this isn't particularly open to a more magnanimous interpretation and you'd be much better off making a different argument. Neither the denotative nor connotative lines of argumentation are in your favor.

 

[Petrie]

Oof. No one understands positive reinforcement it seems.

Her message got Cranky back in the fitness thread after a huge hiatus. To him, Her message was a positive reinforcement.

Boom.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Intent is supremely obvious. I don't even think that's arguable, to be honest.

And that's because you're stuck on the fact that it's a fitness picture, so you're letting your opinions of weight loss and those who struggle with it affect your view of it. But the mere fact there's even a discussion over this picture means that intent isn't obvious.

I've also said how I understand some people would be offended. But that's only because they're being cynical or ignorant. Not because its genuinely offensive or anything. I can be understanding of why somebody does something, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it or be completely sympathetic.

You don't have to be cynical or ignorant to be offended by the picture. You're probably cynical or ignorant if you're responding to the picture with insults and accusations though.

My life needs to be changed? Why do I need to CHANGE? I'm not good the way I am? What's wrong with me? I must be a fat failure. I'm offended. This implies that I need to CHANGE in order improve my LIFE.

That's a huge reach that's nowhere close to equal to the interpretation. I asked the question before and I'll ask it again.

Where in any other situation in life, is the phrase "What's your excuse?" anything other than negative?

Mean while "change" is ambiguous. It can be good or bad. And while the change motivational may not focus on increasing your energy, it is indeed designed to be encouraging from both the phrasing to the photo. It's a better designed image.

Oh and a better slogan that can't be taken as negative? "If I can do it..."

This slogan has the same message as Kang's but again, no negative language. A better slogan.

It's true though. My mom has it and long brisk walks help the most.

She's lost a good bit of weight doing just that.

So what's your excuse again?

That last line a joke or..?

 

[CrankyJay]

She definitely does accuse, and that isn't particularly open to denotational interpretation.

"Excuse" is a word that necessarily implies a fault. It is precisely this connotation that distinguishes it from synonyms like "reason" or even "explanation," which falls between the two extremes.

Accusing someone is literally the process of charging someone with a fault or wrongdoing.

Again, this isn't particularly open to a more magnanimous interpretation and you'd be much better off making a different argument. Neither the denotative nor connotative lines of argumentation are in your favor.

That's quite the mental hopscotch you're doing there.

 

[blame space]

I don't want to be reinforced by her. She seems like a vain egomaniac who poses with her children like she hunted them out of her vagina. I'd rather have a soft body than aspire to be more like her.

 

[PogiJones]

I honestly cannot believe this has gotten any controversy whatsoever, let alone to this magnitude.

Lady has 3 kids, works her butt off to get in great shape, probably by shedding excuses she used to cling to. She posts a picture on Facebook, both to encourage others and also probably a bit of celebratory bragging (and she should! That's hard work!). Now we've had a 22 page discussion because this hard-working woman that we can all look to for inspiration could have potentially worded her Facebook post a bit better?

Unbelievable.

 

[Seanspeed]

You're taking things waaay out of context I am afraid, (We are after all a product of our environment and our own past personal experiences/History) So you cannot point your finger at me and say you are a "coward" for (pre) judging that person the way you did, just because I am not. Ironically you are also judging me.

If I am willing to dedicate hours of my very busy week and dollars of my hard earned money on someone to better my lifestyle, I really want to feel comfortable with that person, and if I cannot do that after the first 15 minutes of meeting them, obviously doubts are going to be raised in my head, right? I will look for other options... (Same reason we do not buy a car the first dealership we walk into)

This same approach MAY apply or may NOT apply to hiring people, but that is totally besides the point, it is just not as black and white as you are painting it to be.

I never said you cant judge people. But you should do it with clear reasoning at least. Here, for example, you didn't even meet this lady. You did not spend 1/15th of 15 minutes with her to even get a good idea of what she's actually like and what her approach would actually be. I dare say that this one little 'poster' says absolutely nothing about her practices and likely has little do with what her whole demeanour would actually be if you met her.

 

[Opiate]

Oof. No one understands positive reinforcement it seems.

Her message got Cranky back in the fitness thread after a huge hiatus. To him, Her message was a positive reinforcement.

That is not what positive reinforcement means. You can argue that's effective reinforcement, but not positive reinforcement.

 

[CrankyJay]

I don't want to be reinforced by her. She seems like a vain egomaniac who poses with her children like she hunted them out of her vagina. I'd rather have a soft body than aspire to be more like her.

That's okay, you don't have to use her as motivation. I don't particularly see her forcing herself on you. =)

 

[waterydave]

Better way to get people to start lifting

"But I don't wanna get all huge an bulky", I hate that excuse from women.

Do some fucking squats

 

[blame space]

Isn't that exactly what her advertising method is trying to do, and what we're arguing about on the Internet?

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

I never said you cant judge people. But you should do it with clear reasoning at least. Here, for example, you didn't even meet this lady. You did not spend 1/15th of 15 minutes with her to even get a good idea of what she's actually like and what her approach would actually be. I dare say that this one little 'poster' says absolutely nothing about her practices and likely has little do with what her whole demeanour would actually be if you met her.

What's the saying?

"A picture speaks a thousands..."

I spent more than "15 minutes" with her with that poster, thanks.

 

[Opiate]

That's quite the mental hopscotch you're doing there.

That's a very straightforward application of the definitions of the words. It's what the words mean, and if you want to say something else -- even something with a slightly different meaning -- then you use different words.

 

[Rayven_king]

I'm happy to learn that its a negative thing to
encourage people to get in shape

 

[SeanR1221]

That is not what positive reinforcement means. You can argue that's effective reinforcement, but not positive reinforcement.

Positive reinforcement is the presentation of something that increases behavior.

She presented a message to increase fitness and working out. Now cranky wants to work out again. Thus, to cranky, it's a positive reinforcement.

A positive punishment is the presentation of something that decreases or neutralizes behavior. To some of you the message did this.

So yes, depending on the person it's positive reinforcement. There is no catch all reinforcement. Not even food or money.

 

[CrankyJay]

That's a very straightforward application of the definitions of the words. It's what the words mean, and if you want to say something else -- even something with a slightly different meaning -- then you use different words.

Excuse implying fault is in the ears of the beholder.

I suppose though, if you favor positive reinforcement, you could re-purpose her poster and remove the "What's your excuse?" and put "You CAN do it!"

 

[Silphonica]

Theres a big difference between being fit before getting pregnant and managing to reach a fit body again relatively quickly, than being unfit before and getting fit in 8 months. It's still true to a certain extent, nothing is stopping women doing their best to get in shape, especially after giving birth, it's just not as clear cut as "I can get a killer body 8 months after giving birth".

 

[RM8]

I wonder, if you come across an ad about... say, French lessons with this same slogan, would you feel offended and angry? I wouldn't, because I don't plan on learning French so it's hardly a priority for me. Of course, no one is insecure about not speaking French, so it makes a difference.

People can have valid reasons to not be as fit as her, ranging from diseases to simply not wanting to be like that, period. This ad clearly targets those of us who would like to be as fit, but indeed make excuses to not work out.

 

[TAJ]

But that assumes the reader is making excuses.

No matter how soft she made the statement, there would still be offense generated.

Even if she said nothing at all, just knowing that she has three young kids and looks like that is enough to make plenty of people cry into their Haagen Dazs.
She should pack on some weight so she's less intimidating.

 

[Zoe]

Excuse implying fault is in the ears of the beholder.

It's in the definition.

 

[CrankyJay]

I wonder, if you come across an ad about... say, French lessons with this same slogan, would you feel offended and angry? I wouldn't, because I don't plan on learning French so it's hardly a priority for me. Of course, no one is insecure about not speaking French, so it makes a difference.

People can have valid reasons to not be as fit as her, ranging from diseases to simply not wanting to be like that, period. This ad clearly targets those of us who would like to be as fit, but indeed make excuses to not work out.

Well said!

 

[PogiJones]

Positive reinforcement is the presentation of something that increases behavior.

She presented a message to increase fitness and working out. Now cranky wants to work out again. Thus, to cranky, it's a positive reinforcement.

A positive punishment is the presentation of something that decreases or neutralizes behavior. To some of you the message did this.

So yes, depending on the person it's positive reinforcement. There is no catch all reinforcement. Not even food or money.

Semantically, Opiate's correct. She's trying to decrease excuse-making, by making you realize how flimsy they are. She's not attacking individuals, she's attacking the excuses themselves. I love it. I love her message. But Opiate's correct that it is a negative attack on excuses.

Which is wonderful.

 

[Opiate]

Positive reinforcement is the presentation of something that increases behavior.

This is incorrect. It is the presentation of something additive which increases the likelihood of behavior.

So yes, depending on the person it's positive reinforcement. There is no catch all reinforcement. Not even food or money.

This is, again, incorrect. I suspect you have not read significantly on operant conditioning.

 

[Petrie]

She definitely does accuse, and that isn't particularly open to denotational interpretation.

"Excuse" is a word that necessarily implies a fault. It is precisely this connotation that distinguishes it from synonyms like "reason" or even "explanation," which falls between the two extremes.

Accusing someone is literally the process of charging someone with a fault or wrongdoing.

Again, this isn't particularly open to a more magnanimous interpretation and you'd be much better off making a different argument. Neither the denotative nor connotative lines of argumentation are in your favor.

There's no accusation there. There is a question. It's all in how the reader chooses to interpret it. Throw out all the big words you like, it doesn't change that all she's done here is pose a question to the audience and allow each individual to process that how they choose.

I wonder, if you come across an ad about... say, French lessons with this same slogan, would you feel offended and angry? I wouldn't, because I don't plan on learning French so it's hardly a priority for me. Of course, no one is insecure about not speaking French, so it makes a difference.

People can have valid reasons to not be as fit as her, ranging from diseases to simply not wanting to be like that, period. This ad clearly targets those of us who would like to be as fit, but indeed make excuses to not work out.

This is a very intelligent post. Well done.

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

Fibromyalgia is a joke. There, I said it. Now, come at me you healthless losers.

 

[watershed]

I'm trying to understand what the objection to her photo/message is. is it basically "Don't assume I'm making excuses/Shut up, you don't know my life?'

 

[blame space]

People's feelings about their relationship with the French language should not be compared to people's feelings about their bodies.

 

[Seanspeed]

And that's because you're stuck on the fact that it's a fitness picture, so you're letting your opinions of weight loss and those who struggle with it affect your view of it. But the mere fact there's even a discussion over this picture means that intent isn't obvious.

Yes, I'm stuck on the fact that its a fitness picture because its a huge part of putting the 'context' into frame.

And I've gone over that it takes somebody being cynical or ignorant to be 'confused' by the intent of this. For somebody who knows something about fitness, the intent is quite clear.

You don't have to be cynical or ignorant to be offended by the picture. You're probably cynical or ignorant if you're responding to the picture with insults and accusations though.

I'm really racking my brain to think of another way somebody could be offended by it that doesn't involve one of those two things and I cant think of one. Honest to god.

You either think she's just parading herself up on Facebook for no other reason than to show off - cynical

You think she's trying to make other people feel bad about themselves - cynical and/or ignorant

On the other hand, the very obvious(if you're being reasonable) intent:

To genuinely be motivational. The three kids there and all. "You can do it too."

 

[Wazzy]

I have to ask...did you read the entire OP? She claims to have two jobs, 3 children, genetic problems, bullemia...

Yes, I did.

When you ask "what's your excuse", you're assuming they don't have a good reason to be the way they are. For some or even many, that might be true, but for others there's actual things that easily prevent people from changing.

I could easily accuse people too, I'm poor, my family has serious mental health and weight problems, I work full time, have a dog, etc. But I know that it's not the same for everyone and just because I overcame something doesn't mean that everyone else has the same willpower.

Oof. No one understands positive reinforcement it seems.

Her message got Cranky back in the fitness thread after a huge hiatus. To him, Her message was a positive reinforcement.

It's not positive.

I honestly cannot believe this has gotten any controversy whatsoever, let alone to this magnitude.

Lady has 3 kids, works her butt off to get in great shape, probably by shedding excuses she used to cling to. She posts a picture on Facebook, both to encourage others and also probably a bit of celebratory bragging (and she should! That's hard work!). Now we've had a 22 page discussion because this hard-working woman that we can all look to for inspiration could have potentially worded her Facebook post a bit better?

Unbelievable.

The controversy is that accusing people isn't a positive nor helpful solution to losing weight for many.

 

[Opiate]

Excuse implying fault is in the ears of the beholder.

It literally is not -- you are factually wrong. Words have specific meanings which are in many cases not open to interpretation by single individuals.

You don't get to redefine words just because it's super inconvenient for your argument.

 

[SeanR1221]

This is incorrect. It is the presentation of something additive which increases the likelihood of behavior.



This is, again, incorrect. I suspect you have not read significantly on operant conditioning.

I'm a certified behavior analyst.

You are incorrect.

This is behavior 101. Anything can be considered reinforcement. There is no universal reinforcement.

 

[Raguel]

Lots of fucking excuses and "but but but" in this thread. Sure the way the message comes across is stupid but the inherent nature of it is not. People bitching and whining about her and trying to find fault are not getting the freaking point. They just look for reasons to complain. Too many people attacking the messenger and not freaking listening to the intent of the message. Why bother changing with all its implied hardship when being lazy is so much simpler. Our body fights change because we are used to complacency. So instead of focusing on the positive nature of the message, people yell and find it as an insult. Bitch and moan. Interpreting anything that remotely resembles criticism as a negative and not as a chance to improve.

I see it all the time. All the damn time. I'm too busy. I have too much to do. No time. I have bad genetics. I have a disease. Bullshit. The BIGGEST and most major improvement anyone can do starts with the simplest. In this case, its diet. You always have fucking time to diet right. Exercise is only 20% of being healthy. And even then, going to the gym or doing it at home takes very little time. You watch tv? fucking exercise while you do it. You have kids? Involve them. Make it a family thing and make it fun. teach them fitness. Kid too young? Take them for a walk in the park. Jog while pushing their stroller. Anything.

I've seen people who lost arms, hands, or are paralyzed waist down going to the gym or doing sports. There's a kid missing a hand who plays basketball better than i can. I've seen a blind man at my freaking gym. He had to be helped but he killed it on the machines and weights. My freaking sister in law's father just had a stroke. Paralyzed right side of his body. The exercises he's doing as part of the rehab is helping him regain some mobility. He could've chose to give up and settle for not being able to do jack with his right side but he didn't. So unless your situation is really dire like being paralyzed neck down, then you really have no fucking excuse.

 

[CrankyJay]

It literally is not -- you are factually wrong. Words have specific meanings which are in many cases not open to interpretation by single individuals.

You don't get to redefine words just because it's super inconvenient for your argument.

It's in the definition.

Not for the correct use of the word, though.

A reason (noun) for not doing something and pardoning (verb) someone are completely different things.

 

[Opiate]

There's no accusation there. There is a question. It's all in how the reader chooses to interpret it. [.quote]

It is not. You are factually wrong. I provided literal definitions of the words used by the woman in the OP (i.e. "Excuse") and then the word in the debate (i.e. "accuse')

This is not open for debate. You are factually wrong. Words have specific meanings and you cannot just insist that words can mean whatever you want because the actual definitions are very inconvenient for your argument.

 

[Seanspeed]

What's the saying?

"A picture speaks a thousands..."

I spent more than "15 minutes" with her with that poster, thanks.

You've got to be kidding me.

 

[Opiate]

I'm a certified behavior analyst.

You are incorrect.

This is behavior 101. Anything can be considered reinforcement. There is no universal reinforcement.

Confirming my understanding from multiple sources:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/positive+reinforcement
http://psychology.about.com/b/2011/...rcement-psychology-definition-of-the-week.htm

Positive reinforcement is anything added that follows a behavior that makes it more likely that the behavior will occur again in the future. One of the easiest ways to remember this is to think of something being added to the situation. For example, imagine that your psychology professor awards you 20 extra credit points for writing a paper summarizing a PBS program you watched on animal intelligence. The bonus points are an example of positive reinforcement.

 

[ronito]

I'm not a sub, so this rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Zoe]

Not for the correct use of the word, though.

A reason (noun) for not doing something and pardoning (verb) someone are completely different things.

2ex·cuse noun \ik-ˈskyüs\
: a reason that you give to explain a mistake, bad behavior, etc.

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

You've got to be kidding me.

No.

If you're really convinced she's a great lady, and can do her job well and motivate people to get in shape in positive ways, (that is what you are telling me here right?) Feel free to go and find her and spend a few minutes to get to know her, come back here and post or PM me about your experience with her. Recommend me to her or not.

Because honestly I do not have the time

 

[PogiJones]

The controversy is that accusing people isn't a positive nor helpful solution to losing weight for many.

But it IS also helpful for many others. As evidenced in this thread, many enjoy the message. I've been on the edge of starting to work out again, and this has helped push me closer to doing it. Others have expressed support. So, all we have are ambiguous data that it's not effective for some people, and it is effective for other people.

So the controversy is that a lady who worked hard to become fit put some words on a Facebook picture that some people thought would be better replaced by other words, because those specific people think other words would be more positive and helpful for them personally? That's the controversy?