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Digital Foundry vs. Dead Rising 3

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It's all just speculation. We won't be able to know for sure without seeing the source code or having a developer explain the situation.

Of course it's speculation. Not sure how much clearer that could have been without me stating the obvious.

But this is a discussion board, and it's crazy how trying to figure out what possibly went wrong where and why is deemed less constructive to this forum than posting gifs and screenshots just poking fun at the problem.

Believe it or not, some people are more interested in absolutes than Xbox One is lesser hardware, or that Dead Rising 3 only runs at 720p at (apparently not) 30fps. Some want to know why that is, and what are the likely reasons if there isn't a definitive answer.
 
Never mind the fact that I am only arguing against your double standards and lowered expectations, here's what you said about Dead Rising 3's performance 2-3 months ago:



Now we've shown that 2-3 months ago you were convinced that DR3 didn't have any frame rate issues, let's reaffirm your dislike for bad frame rates:


But, exactly what is a bad frame rate for Senjutsu? Maybe he's OK with 20's dipping into teens and doesn't like single digits? To get to the bottom of that, we need to look at this GTA4 and what Senjutsu thought of it:


Let's see what DF says about the frame rate on GTA4 on 360:

So a game that can drop to sub-20 in some areas is almost unplayable according to Senjutsu.

Except if it's DR3, where the 20's and sub-20 frame rates go from almost unplayable to perfectly acceptable.
I rest my case

This is just the beginning, we'll probably have a few years of ...

8LtsSHH.gif

OK, it's official, this is one of the best thread this year. Hall of fame this mods.
 
I just counted a 30 second continuous stretch of DF video where the frame rate was below 30 FPS. And for the vast majority of that, it was at 20-22.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKGmZLEEXWs

Last 30 seconds of this. Pretty much as soon as he leaves the garage the frame rate drops to the low 20s and stays there.
There's almost a minute continuous stretch of recorded video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2neFwBuRUQ&t=580
Quite a bit of it at 22-24 fps.
 
Few corrections:

eSRAM Maximum theoretical bandwith is 204GB/s, but in reality when measured by MS it is 140-150 GB/s.

Both DDR3 and eSRAM represent some kind of bottleneck, DDR3 is slow memory (for GPU) so eSRAM must be used whenever a dev can, but 32MB of eSRAM is small. So managing what goes to DDR3 and what goes to eSRAM is not something easy for devs.
That explains why it's harder to develop on X1.D=
 

Is this someone doing AntonioBanderas.gif as a Power Ranger? Or is it just coincidence. It's a mystery I tell you!

Can't stop thinking about it

As for Dead Rising...I wish Capcom would have delayed it, kind of like the Driveclub situation. Would have benefited this game I think.
 
So what in the hardware is the issue? That would lie primarily with the 32MB eSRAM with the Xbox One. While eSRAM is fast, the data moving through it is really limited as it is only 140-150GB/sec. Essentially, it creates an additional bottleneck that presents a unique problem to developers in comparison to just developing with the 8GB 2133MHzDDR3 RAM (which has information travel in both directions at a time and only 68.3GB/sec, but is slow). Essentially, in theory, the eSRAM can provide a boost to either the read or write capabilities of the Xbox One when needed at a given moment, but the slow DDR3 and small capacity eSRAM provide difficulties for developers on how to distribute the data to which process.

Another corrections:

* The bandwidth essentially represent how fast is the memory (To GPU), DDR3 is slow because it's 68.3 GB/s and eSRAM is fast because it's 140-150 GB/s. So eSRAM is not limited (actually is quite fast) but it's bottleneck because 32 mb is small size.

* In DDR3 the information don't travel in both direction at the same time, only one direction at any given time.

-------------------------------------------------------------

And no need to credit me in your comment.
 
I can't believe people are actually defending FPS below 20 because of the "the zombie AI". Wat. Weren't people arguing that 720p and 900p resolutions were OKAY, because it meant the game could run at a more stable/higher frame rate?
 
eSRAM can be read and write at the same time. While in read/write alone it's 109 GB/s (not 102GB/s), read and write at the same is 204 GB/s ( not 109*2 =218 GB/s) because it's not possible to read and write everytime.

it's all here in DF article: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-the-xbox-one-architects

That was informative, thanks Chobel. It's still a bit confusing on how patterns affect the read and write capabilities of the eSRAM, but that probably isn't quite as important at this stage.

Another corrections:

* The bandwidth essentially represent how fast is the memory (To GPU), DDR3 is slow because it's 68.3 GB/s and eSRAM is fast because it's 140-150 GB/s. So eSRAM is not limited (actually is quite fast) but it's bottleneck because 32 mb is small size.

* In DDR3 the information don't travel in both direction at the same time, only one direction at any given time.

-------------------------------------------------------------

And no need to credit me in your comment.

So the bottom line was that I was mixing up DDR3 and eSRAM read and write pathways?

Well, at least I'm trying.
 
I can't believe people are actually defending FPS below 20 because of the "the zombie AI". Wat. Weren't people arguing that 720p and 900p were OKAY, because it meant the game could run at a more stable/higher frame rate?

i think its only Sage really...and lets be honest...the game could be a Capcom Vancouver employee standing in your living room literally holding up different pre rendered still images in reaction to your Kinect voice commands and he would find a positive in it...
 
I can't believe people are actually defending FPS below 20 because of the "the zombie AI". Wat. Weren't people arguing that 720p and 900p were OKAY, because it meant the game could run at a more stable/higher frame rate?

Apparently 720p is ok if you have good framerate, 20fps is ok if you have zombies. No zombies will probably also be ok if you have seen Titanfall.
 
i think its only Sage really...and lets be honest...the game could be a Capcom Vancouver employee standing in your living room literally holding up different pre rendered still images in reaction to your Kinect voice commands and he would find a positive in it...

Heh fair enough. I noticed some other people saying this in other forums/comment sections. But it just seems so absurd. I'll just assume this isn't a popular opinion lol and just an extreme minority.

I just can't imagine such a low FPS ever being acceptable. Even someone that isn't into tech would notice that.
 
I can't believe people are actually defending FPS below 20 because of the "the zombie AI". Wat. Weren't people arguing that 720p and 900p were OKAY, because it meant the game could run at a more stable/higher frame rate?
I'm still kind of shocked at just how bad the performance appears to be. It's bad to the point that I've cancelled the game for the time being (thanks to high European prices it would cost me $93 USD). Not worth it.
 
I'm still kind of shocked at just how bad the performance appears to be. It's bad to the point that I've cancelled the game for the time being (thanks to high European prices it would cost me $93 USD). Not worth it.

Can you answer this question: How old is the build of Dead rising that was used for this article of DF?
 
I'm still kind of shocked at just how bad the performance appears to be. It's bad to the point that I've cancelled the game for the time being (thanks to high European prices it would cost me $93 USD). Not worth it.

Pre-order cancelled!!!

ML8zK9E.png


Ryse finally rysing up to the occasion.
 
Finally, this was a game intended for development on Xbox 360 hardware/architecture that was transferred at an unknown stage of development onto the Xbox One. The architecture is the chief issue, but this also has strong ties to the software element of game design regarding development kits.

Apparently Dead Rising was never developed in X360? http://www.oxm.co.uk/65891/dead-ris...en-capcom-hit-the-ceiling-during-prototyping/

Personally I don't buy it, and I believe they're lying just like they lied about locked 30fps.
 
Well I totally agree with the shitty IQ and pathetic framerate; but you have to have to give it to them - they've made some huge strides with the limb customisation options.
DR3_Augmentation_zpse9b5dd36.png~original
 
You're missing the point. It's not excusing the hardware of the system.

He asked why we're seeing what we're seeing, so I gave him the explanation that covered everything from hardware to development.

Here's my advice: Stop looking at anything not equating to "PS4 is better" or "The Xbox One can't do 1080p) as support for Xbox One. That is a given fact and needs no further explanation. I went in and explained why Dead Rising 3 is in the shape that is it, which the very first point was, oh my goodness, the actual Xbox One hardware.

Advice 2: Read beyond the first few lines before making conclusions. While the post wasn't for you, posts like yours make me feel like it's a wasted effort to bother posting anything that isn't a gif or meme here.

I feel you man. I type rather lengthy posts quite often but you only ever see people quoting .gifs and memes back and forth and trying to one-up each other with the better gif. I read your entire exploratory post all the way through and I appreciated it, even the errors, because like myself you're trying to understand the WHY behind everything rather than just throwing gasoline on everything and smoking a cigarette.

It is neogaf after all though and ya just gotta take it like it comes. Some will read your posts, some won't, but don't ever stop chasing after knowledge in the face of the .gif bonanza, because there's a lot of knowledge here and a lot of very smart folks willing to share it. Besides, some of them gifs are quite funny. :D
 
It's funny because like, yeah the framerate is kinda garbage, but it looks fun to plow down those zombies. I hope they can make a sequel that takes full advantage of the platform or a multiplatform one someday.
 
Ok...now, I'm not a resident techphile here at GAF, so I'm going to be putting a lot of things in layman terms. I'm sure someone can point to some of the more hardware/devtool focused discussions to add some clarification or further your interest in the subject.

Hardware

Hardware itself is, in my personal opinion, the least contributing factor to the issues with Dead Rising 3. That does not mean that it isn't a significant factor. It is the baseline after all. However, it is also of my personal opinion that these issues would not be as severe if it weren't for outstanding factors. If this were to have started from scratch on the system and be released 2 years from now, which is in my mind minimal development time for a substantial title, it could probably run at 1080p/30fps locked. Possibly higher with a basement ceiling of 30fps, but let's just keep things close to the chest to avoid a controversy.

So what in the hardware is the issue? That would lie primarily with the 32MB eSRAM and 8GB DDR3 RAM. While eSRAM is fast at 140-150 GB/sec and capable of simultaneous reading and writing, the data moving through it is restricted to the small capacity. Essentially, it creates an additional bottleneck to the 8GB 2133MHzDDR3 RAM (which can only read and write at a given time and only at 68.3GB/sec). Essentially, in theory, the eSRAM can provide a boost to the read and write capabilities of the Xbox One when needed at a given moment, but the slow DDR3 and small capacity eSRAM provide difficulties for developers on how to distribute the data to which process. Another issue worth noting is that only certain pathways seem to enable the eSRAM to simultaneously read and write.

As I said, this is using simple language with limited understanding, so hopefully you're still bearing with me. I may have mixed up how RAM and eSRAM work and the way information flows between them, so I welcome corrections from HardwareGAF. Edit: Thanks to Chobel for providing the homework to get me out of opposite world regarding eSRAM and DDR3.

While this ties in more with the next section, in an attempt to draw parity with Sony's system, Microsoft made changes with the hardware that now encouraged developers to go further and possibly bite off more than they could chew in the amount of time available to them. With the changing environment already creating problems with optimization, developers had to contend with issues with the tied in software in development.

Finally, this was a game purportedly intended for development on Xbox 360 hardware/architecture that was transferred at an unknown stage of development onto the Xbox One. The architecture is the chief issue, but this also has strong ties to the software element of game design regarding development kits.

For more information on Xbox One architecture: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-the-xbox-one-architects

Development Kits

To aid Capcom Vancouver in developing their exclusive title to the Xbox One, Microsoft provides development kits to the team, which is software that allows game development for the Xbox One in this case.

http://www.kotaku.com.au/2013/10/rumored-xbox-one-launch-issues-lead-to-lots-of-questions/

There seems to have been quite a few issues with the development kits, reportedly as quite buggy. Iterations/updates of the software that released with new Xbox One SDKs didn't provide any improvements to the situation.

There is also the purported transition of working with final Xbox 360 development kits to ever-changing Xbox One development kits. I'm not a game developer, so I don't know what changes aside from the hardware end that would obviously have an effect on the options available in the software. However, it's bound to be jarring to have, with the very same project, go from software optimized for a system over 8 years to software that changes potentially on a weekly/monthly basis for new hardware.

Time

An obvious issue that ties in with the other two is that there was a strict deadline for this product to be released when Microsoft made that call for the Xbox One. Reading the above issues, on how changes are occurring rather often and probably disrupting development, imagine now with that deadline fast approaching. That doesn't make for tequila shots and penthouse strippers in my mind.

In between all of this and running up to the date, you have to make time for the press, meetings, conventions, creating vertical slices or creating demos, and whatever else needed to be done in between actual development.

In-Game

So why are the issues taking place in certain instances? So far I've observed it in areas with large draw distance and crowds. It also escalates in vehicles and large amounts of particle effects, or just effects if that isn't the right term.

Upon loads, checkpoints/saving, cutscenes (which look to mask loadtimes from the DF footage), and quickly covering distances, that's where quite a few noticeable dips come to play. Everything taking place on screen at once is a problem to put quite simply.

Yet we are also seeing dips where nothing seems to necessitate or feature any of the above reasons, so something behind the scenes is also causing issues.

However, this all falls back on to the above reasons in varying ways, as well as some concluding statements below on Capcom Vancouver's chief mistake in development choices.

Conclusion

Honestly, it's hard to put this on solely Microsoft or Capcom Vancouver. At this stage, most of the blame is on Microsoft for buggy development kits, unconventional architecture, and rushing the project to meet this holiday to be a launch exclusive. Blaming them for changing the hardware itself is a factor, but not really a fault of the company.

However, Capcom Vancouver decided effort > execution. Instead of perhaps reducing draw distance, segmenting the world in a more manageable way, or cutting down on the zombies present on screen at a time or some other factor in order to stabilize framerate, they kept reaching with more = better. Now you have bandwidth not being able to support all the data coming through at the necessary speed to communicate with the CPU, hence the framerate issue.

Another issue is that this is now made worse by CV having possibly lied about the game featuring "locked 30fps" in September: http://www.videogamer.com/xboxone/dead_rising_3/news/dead_rising_3_now_frame-locked_at_30fps.html. It looks to be that a demo available back then was damn close to that, but we don't know exactly how that slice was presented. For all we know, it was an optimized demo benefitting from being a closed environment rather than an entire game. Video in question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttO1i8_Anxw

Otherwise, how are these latest videos of what seems to be the final build of the full game now suffering from unstable framerates? Maybe they never did lock it down and were just buying time with the demo so that they can fulfill their promise of reaching that target at launch, possibly with a Day 1 patch. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/129398-Dead-Rising-3-Locked-at-720p-30-FPS-Capcom-Confirms Unfortunately, that possibly won't be clear to us for another week, and is not helping Microsoft's position.

A position which, this late in the game, should not exist.

Edit: To state the obvious, this is only an exploration on the possible issues behind the latest look at Dead Rising 3, with my personal conclusion to the crux of the issue. The only facts here are regarding the Xbox One architecture, the claims by Capcom Vancouver, and the quantifiable data and observations in the Digital Foundry article and footage. The rest derive mainly from an investigative report from Jason Schreier of Kotaku and my own responses and conjecture to what I observed in the DF footage in relation to the other supported elements.

Of course, some of you may find the hardware to be the bigger issue, or the time crunch at launch to be it, or maybe that I don't understand how the awesomeness of thousands of zombies on screen negates any technical issues. If you do, feel free to discuss it.

Bumping this now that it's all cleaned up and sourced. And yes Chobel, I already adjusted the whole 360 business in there, though I'm leaving most of it so that those who subscribe to it don't feel left out.
 
It's funny because like, yeah the framerate is kinda garbage, but it looks fun to plow down those zombies. I hope they can make a sequel that takes full advantage of the platform or a multiplatform one someday.

I fear it may already be taking full advantage of the platform..
 
I feel you man. I type rather lengthy posts quite often but you only ever see people quoting .gifs and memes back and forth and trying to one-up each other with the better gif. I read your entire exploratory post all the way through and I appreciated it, even the errors, because like myself you're trying to understand the WHY behind everything rather than just throwing gasoline on everything and smoking a cigarette.

It is neogaf after all though and ya just gotta take it like it comes. Some will read your posts, some won't, but don't ever stop chasing after knowledge in the face of the .gif bonanza, because there's a lot of knowledge here and a lot of very smart folks willing to share it. Besides, some of them gifs are quite funny. :D

It's the usual business, so I hope I helped the guy out who wanted the bigger picture I guess.

And I'm guilty of the gif fest. Something had to herald the arrival of an Amir0x smackdown.
 
Exactly. Just like GTA V has performance problems and yet it's as awesome game.

It's defentaly not a good thing and a shame that this is considered "next-gen" by MS but I think it wouldn't effect the actual success of the game.

People who love DR will love it even if it's sub 30 FPS at times and 720p

Dat soft bigotry of low expectations.
 
Found this screen on another forum, do you gaffers know if this is real and taken from the DF Analisys or it is a fake?

7WEhvXQ.png


I can't believe this game reaches the negative peak of 10 fps....
 
What in the hell happened in this thread.

Sage seriously, damn.

Found this screen on another forum, do you gaffers know if this is real and taken from the DF Analisys or it is a fake?

7WEhvXQ.png


I can't believe this game reaches the negative peak of 10 fps....

Gaf >>>Internet>>>Gaf
 
Your desperation is pretty pathetic, and the same goes for anyone else pretty much making a fool out of themselves if they're actually batshit insane enough to believe the performance of Dead Rising 3 right now is anything remotely close to what it was like back then. Do you even realize what the heck Dead Rising 3 performed like back then? The performance was downright atrocious. We aren't talking a few drops here and there. It was almost 100% unplayable, even with very little happening on screen. The current state of the game is a pretty big ass leapfrog over the older builds. The performance, on average, is in the 28-30fps range in most gameplay scenarios according to that 14 minute DF video that they feel covers a wider range of gameplay scenarios.

Months ago you could barely encounter a small number of enemies without performance completely grinding to a halt. Now you can literally encounter seemingly hundreds of enemies and mow them down with pretty solid performance, with some drops here and there, but never to the point of being completely unplayable, particularly because it rebounds pretty nicely heading right back up to the higher performance numbers. So, nice try at the troll, but it's a pretty epic fucking fail on your part for the simple fact that it showcases an almost laughable level of ignorance regarding how far this game has come performance wise compared to 3 or 2 months ago. But, who am I kidding? Of course some of the trolls occupying this thread know Dead Rising's performance today can't be compared to the way it was months ago, but if they admitted that much, what ever else would they have to say? :)



Yea, please use your head. The performance of Dead Rising 3 today is absolutely nothing like what it was back then. I don't know who you guys think you're fooling with this act of yours that pretty much lives and dies on the need to hide clear evidence of what old dead rising 3 looked like, but you're comparing video evidence on DF that hovered more around 28-30fps on average in their longer video to this...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btc39u9MQvo

There's even moments when the player is by himself, not surrounded by much of anything, where the performance is down a ditch.

Yet another video of the game at Gamescom, played by IGN. Anybody who watches these and can seriously come away claiming that Dead Rising 3 right now performs anywhere quite as bad as these older builds did on an almost consistent basis is, well, completely full of shit. There's honestly no other way to put it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVSxzKJ8VMY

And with that, I'm done here. All people have to do is watch the videos and judge for themselves with the footage available online today of the final build of the game in action. Know why the people talking shit didn't have the balls to post these older videos showing what performance of the older builds were really like? Because it would show they were lying. Simple as that.

Dude it's really ok. I think people are just giving you shit to give you shit tbh. I mean I'm excited as fuck for this game. In fact, it's the ONLY game I'll be purchasing on the XB1 at launch. I'll play Forza b/c I'm getting it free, and I might buy Killer Instinct at some point due to nostalgia, but mostly I'll be playing DR3 on XB1 and Killzone on PS4.

That doesn't change the fact that I'll be disappointed if the framerate isn't ROCK SOLID at 30fps. There really is no excuse for a 720p game to be running with any framerate dips below 30 whatsoever, not even a sandbox game with (potentially) hundreds of enemies on screen, especially when placed in the context of last gen games that did the same thing and held 30fps or better.

You're a cool chap but your own comments kinda of fingered you on this one.

You can't go from complaining that framerate dips are unacceptable to claiming that framerate dips are ok just because it comes back up to the baseline and not expect people to call you on it. Framerate dips in a game that looks like this one does really shouldn't be happening. If the sub-20fps was in fact from older builds, then fine, but even if launch builds only dip to 28fps they're still dipping too low. That shit shouldn't be going below 30, period, ever.

Just take a step back and try to look at it with an unbiased eye. Be excited for the game, but don't ignore the negatives. Acknowledge them, accept them, and enjoy the game anyway. I mean hell does anyone remember the absolutely god awful pathing and AI of the survivors in the first DR? Trying to do Frank the Pimp and that other one for rescuing 8 survivors at once was a tad bit ridiculous until you learned the little tricks to corral the ladies. Yet I loved the first DR, warts and all.


PS - Does anyone wanna speculate that any performance issues at this point are because the game was designed to run with cloud power and now they have to tweak it to play 100% offline if XB1 owners choose to do so? ;p
 
Of course it's speculation. Not sure how much clearer that could have been without me stating the obvious.

But this is a discussion board, and it's crazy how trying to figure out what possibly went wrong where and why is deemed less constructive to this forum than posting gifs and screenshots just poking fun at the problem.

Believe it or not, some people are more interested in absolutes than Xbox One is lesser hardware, or that Dead Rising 3 only runs at 720p at (apparently not) 30fps. Some want to know why that is, and what are the likely reasons if there isn't a definitive answer.
I mean, it's impossible to really know if it's purely a memory bandwidth issue. Could be CPU, fillrate or a game that just needs 6 more months of development.
 
PS - Does anyone wanna speculate that any performance issues at this point are because the game was designed to run with cloud power and now they have to tweak it to play 100% offline if XB1 owners choose to do so? ;p

Source please? because I don't think the cloud will fix anything. OK, I get it, It's sarcasm.
 
This is just the beginning, we'll probably have a few years of ...

8LtsSHH.gif

Clap Clap..

Olsen Banden in Gif Form... clap clap...

and in a thread made by a Dane.. clap clap

but it´s strange to think that Olsen Banden isn´t the most fun part of this thread.. we have our own Egon Olsen in Senjutsu.. lol
 
PS - Does anyone wanna speculate that any performance issues at this point are because the game was designed to run with cloud power and now they have to tweak it to play 100% offline if XB1 owners choose to do so? ;p

Did you just jokingly say that solely to give people an "out" from their previous statements? :D

On a serious note, I like your level-headed post as a fan of this game. There's no reason to give any developer a free pass if the issues take away from the game itself like it clearly does here. Even for a launch game, this shouldn't be acceptable if it's truly this bad most of the game, especially considering how it looks anyway.

I wanted this game to be good since I loved DR on the 360 and then DR2 on PC but I wasn't going to buy an X1 at launch just for this game (to each their own but just my opinion and only have money for one console), especially when I had a lot of doubts about how DR3 would turn out. I'm kind of torn because I want the series to continue but don't like the way this was handled at all.

Killing zombies is always fun, especially in absurd ways but there's no excuse for that level of performance and expecting everyone to be alright with it, let alone in a next-gen game where expectations are higher and in a game that doesn't seem to be pushing the bar graphically at all outside of the huge amount of zombies even though that seems unrelated to some of the framerate drops in this analysis. If it was a source of framerate problems, I'd rather have A LOT of zombies on screen at a stable framerate than an epic shitload of zombies at an unstable and sometimes horrible framerate.
 
Bumping this now that it's all cleaned up and sourced. And yes Chobel, I already adjusted the whole 360 business in there, though I'm leaving most of it so that those who subscribe to it don't feel left out.

Thank you for that post, now that we know the problems it's time to look for possible solutions. Speculate!

My solution: Delay the the game. I don't think there's enough time to fix the framerate issues by the time of Xbox One launch.

dark10x works for DF?

hope he replies, tweets to them regarding what build it is have been ignored so far...

Yes.
 
Thank you for that post, now that we know the problems it's time to look for possible solutions. Speculate!

My solution: Delay the the game. I don't think there's enough time to fix the framerate issues by the time of Xbox One launch.

It went gold. Too late for that. :P
 
I think Dead Rising 3 was straight up designed for better hardware. They were given possible specs by Microsoft, and made certain design decisions (like no loading zones) based on that. Turns out MS was being optimistic, and now they have to do the best with what they got. It might get a little better with a patch, but I wouldn't expect much if the issue is the core design.
 
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