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[FloatOn]

I grew up on the NES so I've played my fair share of difficult video games. What I want to talk about here though is this retro-chic trend of indie platformers that instantly throw you into the shit.

To name a few:

Super Meat Boy
VVVVVV
Super House of Dead Ninjas
Cloudberry Kingdom
Electronic Super Joy

The reason these types of games are not rewarding is that as soon as you make it past the very brief tutorial that goes over the mechanics there is no learning curve at all. No room for improvisation. The entire point of the game is a binary code, digital rewiring of your human brain to be as precise as a robot for as long as your patience lasts.

As much as I love indies and as much as I love platformers, until these developers learn how to create a learning curve these types of games can fuck right off.

Or maybe I'm missing something... Feel free to explain the appeal to these types of games if you disagree with me.



PS - This also applies to bullet hell shmups.

 

[Crispy75]

...digital rewiring of your human brain to be as precise as a robot for as long as your patience lasts.

Some people enjoy this. Let them.

 

[hawk2025]

I really don't know what to say other than "yes they are".

It's about overcoming a challenge and absolutely mastering the mechanics and controls.

The purest form of gaming.

 

[Nestunt]

Meat Boy was the last time I remember having "ole days" fun with a game

 

[Omega]

Super Meat Boy was one of the most satisfying games I ever played.

 

[McDougles]

As much as I love indies and as much as I love platformers, until these developers learn how to create a learning curve these types of games can fuck right off.

If you don't think that Super Meat Boy gets harder and harder as the game goes on, then I'm not sure you've even played.

Honestly, and I'm not trying to attack you personally, but it just might not be a skill set that you are particularly good at. Like I am with most RTS'. You can learn to get better, but I will never be good at them.

 

[codhand]

i think the mere existence of these super hard indie games, shows there to be a pent up demand for shit that doesnt hold your hand through endless tutorial, and let's you play instantly

you say "throw you in the shit" but how many games, just throw the shit at you?

 

[bjork]

Not everything has to be for you, OP. Accept that and let your life become better as a result, I promise it will be. For example, I won't touch an FPS after DOOM 2 and I never play RTS, and I don't really feel like I need to like them or I'm missing out on anything.

 

[corn_fest]

Super Meat Boy definitely has a learning curve. It just starts off at a much higher level than you might expect.
And I don't know about VVVVVV. Maybe I'm just amazing or something, but I never found any of the "platforming" to be particularly difficult.

On the topic of games that just force you to memorize jumps like a robot, though, might I submit Bit.Trip Runner? I don't know how anyone enjoys that shit. It's like a 1-hit failure rhythm game with no interesting music to speak of.

 

[w1gglyjones]

the reward is in passing each level...

"dark souls is not rewarding"

 

[Jamix012]

I really don't know what to say other than "yes they are".

It's about overcoming a challenge and absolutely mastering the mechanics and controls.

The purest form of gaming.

I'm not the OP and I can see the appeal. Like the OP though I don't enjoy that type of game personally, though.
I don't think Super Meat Boy is a good game because repeating the same segment of level repeatedly to finally get lucky and pull of the perfect run is nowhere near as rewarding to me as trying to maintain a fairly high level of skill across an entire course in a Mega Man style level system.

 

[Monty Mole]

Super Meat Boy was one of the most satisfying games I ever played.

This.

Every level seems impossible when you first reach it, but it's so deceptively well designed that eventually something 'clicks' and you just do it. I spent so much time with the XBLA version of that game.

One thing I remember is that my friend said the game was completely impossible. He then enabled Game Mode on his TV and gave himself a big head slap.

EDIT: Also there was a perfectly fine learning curve in Super Meat Boy. OP, if you're basing your experiences on the XBLA demo, then you should be aware that it features select levels through the game and not the first levels of the complete game in chronological order.

 

[Mesoian]

I grew up on the NES so I've played my fair share of difficult video games. What I want to talk about here though is this retro-chic trend of indie platformers that instantly throw you into the shit.

To name a few:

Super Meat Boy
VVVVVV
Super House of Dead Ninjas
Cloudberry Kingdom
Electronic Super Joy

The reason these types of games are not rewarding is that as soon as you make it past the very brief tutorial that goes over the mechanics there is no learning curve at all. No room for improvisation. The entire point of the game is a binary code, digital rewiring of your human brain to be as precise as a robot for as long as your patience lasts.

As much as I love indies and as much as I love platformers, until these developers learn how to create a learning curve these types of games can fuck right off.

Or maybe I'm missing something... Feel free to explain the appeal to these types of games if you disagree with me.



PS - This also applies to bullet hell shmups.

They can be.

Personally, I loved Meat Boy and VVVVVV. I thought they were really fun to play, but mostly because they don't decide to bend you over backwards IMMEDIATELY, they allow you to get acclimated with the game before really pouring it on. Stuff like Cloudberry Kingdom though, where it's just fucked from the get go, isn't really to my liking (plus that game thinks it's way more clever than it is).

Electronic Super Joy is interesting because it's not that much fun to play, but it's a visual marvel. I'd rather watch that game than play it.

Just like any other genre, some are better than others. Sales and critical success reflect that. But dismissing the entire genre altogether is just silly. It's more indicative that you're just not a fan of it. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[okayfrog]

I could be wrong, but I kinda feel like there is a learning curve. I'm playing through Electronic Super Joy and the earlier levels are definitely much less involved than the later ones.

 

[batbeg]

But I love I also enjoy I Wanna be the Guy though have no desire to attempt beating it.

 

[namDa65]

VVVVVV and Super meatboy was great. Sorry. They are pretty rewarding once you finish them. Pixel perfect platforming goodness.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

I think you'll actually find that my opinion is the correct opinion.

Sorry.

 

[Camjo-Z]

I guess they are for some people, that's why they sell, but I'm generally not into them. I was considering getting the AVGN game recently but decided against it once I saw some gameplay and discovered it to be one of *those* games.

I wouldn't necessarily lump Super Meat Boy into the category though, it's got a pretty fair learning curve, and the addition of extra playable characters with helpful abilities makes for some nice variety in case you start getting too frustrated.

 

[Stone Ocean]

the reward is in passing each level...

"dark souls is not rewarding"

This.

What do you want, a cookie? Achievements? The reward of beating a hard game is beating the game.

 

[Poetic.Injustice]

VVVVVV was incredibly rewarding, When you finally manage to beat Veni, Vidi, Vici: It's one of the most rewarding moments in a game, for me.

 

[Stumpokapow]

The reason these types of games are not rewarding is that as soon as you make it past the very brief tutorial that goes over the mechanics there is no learning curve at all. No room for improvisation. The entire point of the game is a binary code, digital rewiring of your human brain to be as precise as a robot for as long as your patience lasts.

It is possible you are correct. It is possible you are incorrect and just projecting your own frustration or lack of skill with the games a the games being unfair. One way we can test to see which of those hypotheses is correct is to try to demonstrate whether or not there is a significant skill gap between a low-skill user, a medium skill user, and a high skill user.

Given the extensive leaderboard competition on each title, it seems likely that there is an element of skill. Is your assertion that the explanation for differing leaderboard times is simple a rigid devotion to wasting time improving leaderboard scores, rather than technique experimentation? You really don't think it's about quick synthesis of available on-screen material, reaction time, and mastery of control subtleties? You just think it's muscle memory and rote memorization?

The same applies to, say, the practice of 1CCing a bullet hell shoot-em-up rather than credit-feeding it.

You might also test by comparing the difficulty of earlier levels to the difficulty of higher levels. Is Super Meat Boy 1-6 comparable to Super Meat Boy 7-5X? For your theory to be true, the main difference in difficulty should not be number of obstacles or their interplay, but rather length of the level / level a player is required to play without error.

 

[jman2050]

If anything, Super Meat Boy was too forgiving. VVVVVV was a pretty solid game that I liked a lot, but even that wasn't as hard as it needed to be.

 

[rrs]

Have you ever got that moment of ecstasy from doing what you considered impossible? That's the reward from these kind of games.

 

[Visualante2]

I don't have a problem with them but after Super Meat Boy I think I'm done with the genre. The thing that always bugs me is not why people enjoy them but who they actually are. There has to be some sort of personality trait that draws people to these games.

If anything, Super Meat Boy was too forgiving. VVVVVV was a pretty solid game that I liked a lot, but even that wasn't as hard as it needed to be.

I'm sure their bank account says otherwise! Any harder and the mass market would not touch it.

 

[nicoga3000]

I didn't think VVVVVV was masochistic. There was the one shiny object that sticks out (Veni Vidi Vici), but otherwise, the game did a pretty good job of building up in terms of platform difficulty.

But in general, the genre is rewarding to those who FIND it rewarding. You pretty much know immediately if you like the style or not. Jumper and Jumper 2 are my earliest memories of these style of games. Given that Super Meat Boy was inspired by them, I imagine that's why I find the genre enjoyable.

I can see why many folks hate the genre, though.

 

[Cody_D165]

Beating The Kid's Warp Zone in Super Meat Boy was one of the most satisfying moments in my video gaming lifetime. Literal jumping and screaming in accomplishment.

 

[kiguel182]

Super Meat Boy is both frustrating and rewarding.

When you can finally finish a level that you were stuck in for a long time then is hard not to feel rewarded.

Also, I don't remember VVVVVV being that hard but maybe I just didn't play enough of it.

 

[Wonko_C]

PS - This also applies to bullet hell shmups.

I don't know about those platformers you mentioned but you are sorely mistaken if you think the first level of a bullet hell shooting game is as ruthless as the final level. Most of them are pretty tame and inviting infact.

 

[riskVSreward]

Super Meat Boy and the Battle Kid games say no.

 

[GulAtiCa]

VVVVVV and Cloudberry Kingdom were very rewarding for me. Especially hearing that music as I complete each section/stage.

 

[ghibli99]

Super Meat Boy was one of the best games I've ever played. I was intimidated at first because I heard about how hard it was, but there's definitely a learning curve there, and once you get into the rhythms of it, it's fantastic. Anyone that says there isn't hasn't played much of it. 106%'ing that game, getting all the Band-Aids, etc. is an amazing feeling. The worst thing I can say about SMB is the cutscenes are pretty terrible looking.

VVVVVV was terrific as well, and there were truly only a few sequences that I would consider to be very hard, although I like Cavanagh's Super Hexagon more in terms of replayability and how much dedication it takes to beat it. Infinitely rewarding, but many people say the same thing about that game. They try it for a few minutes and then brush it off as too hard. They're really missing out.

I haven't gotten too far into Electronic Super Joy, but there's a learning curve there as well. I'd say that game's harder than SMB, but I haven't gotten too far in. It just seems that way early on.

IWBTG, though... that just isn't fun to me.

 

[Instro]

Probably because Super Meat Boy and VVVVVV are not particularly good platformers.

 

[Puru]

I feel rewarded when i die in those game, because yes, i actually die for once.

I honestly don't remember VVVVV to be hard (except vindi vinci etc), it was overall a pleasant relaxing experience, controls weren't that good though imo.
Super meat boy definitly had a relativly well done learning curve, but i can definitly see why it would be frustrating.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Super Meat Boy, for me and my friends, is all about the hilarity in seeing dozens of Meat Boy's throwing themselves to their death.

 

[KodeAndGame]

I grew up on the NES so I've played my fair share of difficult video games. What I want to talk about here though is this retro-chic trend of indie platformers that instantly throw you into the shit.

To name a few:

Super Meat Boy
VVVVVV
Super House of Dead Ninjas
Cloudberry Kingdom
Electronic Super Joy

The reason these types of games are not rewarding is that as soon as you make it past the very brief tutorial that goes over the mechanics there is no learning curve at all. No room for improvisation. The entire point of the game is a binary code, digital rewiring of your human brain to be as precise as a robot for as long as your patience lasts.

As much as I love indies and as much as I love platformers, until these developers learn how to create a learning curve these types of games can fuck right off.

Or maybe I'm missing something... Feel free to explain the appeal to these types of games if you disagree with me.



PS - This also applies to bullet hell shmups.

I think these games sort of assume you've spent your life playing platformers. And they do this not out of bad design but because that's the demographic they're aiming for. Thus, actually making it good design. No one who's spent so much of their lives playing platformers wants to be patronized with the same learning curve everyone else typically gets.

I don't see how this is not rewarding. It's not even like it's rote memorization. Even if you thought it were, you wouldn't have included procedurally generated games like Super House of Dead Ninjas and Cloudberry Kindom. It is precisely rewarding because it takes skill to beat these levels. They are rewarding every time you beat a level as opposed to when you beat a game.

 

[jman2050]

I don't have a problem with them but after Super Meat Boy I think I'm done with the genre. The thing that always bugs me is not why people enjoy them but who they actually are. There has to be some sort of personality trait that draws people to these games.

I'm sure their bank account says otherwise! Any harder and the mass market would not touch it.

Well you could say that the Meat Boy devs managed to create a game that gave the illusion of being frustratingly difficult while managing to be accessible to a wide variety of skill levels. From a certain point of view you can applaud them for such a combination and I imagine that helped many people from being turned off by the game.

 

[botty]

Probably because Super Meat Boy and VVVVVV are not particularly good platformers.

so hardcore. so extreme. so much challenging.

They aren't bad platformers, but a bit over hyped.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I'd argue SMB and VVVVVV just aren't very good and not particurly challenging, but I know Stump would ban me so

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Cloudberry Kingdom doesn't necessarily have to be hard. It's as difficult as you set it to be.

Anyway, I agree about Meatboy and haven't played a lot of the other games you listed, but I don't think VVVVVV is really that hard.

The individual sections are difficult, but there are checkpoints literally everywhere, and the quick respawn times make it really easy to keep trying. I do agree there are a couple sections that go over the edge in terms of difficulty (or could use an even greater number of checkpoints), but overall it's a really balanced game difficulty wise.

 

[Lijik]

I have to disagree that Super Meat Boy, VVVVVV, and Electronic Super Joy have no difficulty curve OP. I think all of those games ramp up over the course of their game and do not throw you instantly at a wall. ESJ is fairly short so perhaps it ramps up quicker than expected.

 

[fredrancour]

I've played VVVVVV start to finish twice and super meat boy briefly so my comments are based on those:

The "learning curve" is mainly how the consequences of death are so super-trivial. Beating the game without dying is very unlikely and they are structured to make it feel completely ok to die.

 

[Tye The Czar]

I really don't know what to say other than "yes they are".

It's about overcoming a challenge and absolutely mastering the mechanics and controls.

The purest form of gaming.

I'd like to make a statement about this. At the game design school I'm going to, we see the appeal of overcoming obstacles as the "Challenge Aesthetic." It's clear that games like those greatly appeal to people seeking challenge like myself. Design Aesthetics are a relatively new theory in game design, much of which can be found here:

https://sites.google.com/site/zenrhinoorg/mmda

It's a lot of reading, but it's a great way to start getting into the heads of game designers and gamers alike.

 

[jman2050]

I'd argue SMB and VVVVVV just aren't very good and not particurly challenging, but I know Stump would ban me so

It's true they aren't particularly challenging, but that doesn't necessarily make them bad games. VVVVVV exploits its gimmick in pretty interesting ways and SMB has some of the best platforming mechanics I've seen in the genre.

 

[Seanspeed]

The entire point of the game is a binary code, digital rewiring of your human brain to be as precise as a robot for as long as your patience lasts.

That can be satisfying for a lot of people.

Its really the same premise with real-life racing(and thus racing sims). The point is to always try and be as absolutely perfect as you can at all times as mistakes are punished heavily. So you practice and iron out mistakes little bit by little bit until you can achieve satisfactory results. That's the learning curve and its nearly impossible to be perfect, so the skill ceiling remains almost infinitely high.

 

[mclem]

VVVVVV

I didn't have any problems with VVVVVV, really. Only big stumbling block was Veni, Vidi, Vici, and that's an entirely optional side-challenge.

(As an aside: I'd probably be okay with SMB, too, but my tendency to latch onto a notion of "I've seen a bandage / secret area, I MUST COLLECT/COMPLETE IT" does force it into being somewhat frustrating - but that's my gamer psychology, mostly not a fault of the game.

I say mostly because I've never quite been clear if the levels with bandages are made apparent to the player - I tend to feel I have to get them when I see them, because if I don't, I'll have forgotten the location by the time I inevitably *do* want to collect them all)

 

[Oldschoolgamer]

The improvisation in Super House of Dead Ninjas is in the weapon unlocks and it's replay value. If you're not good at clearing floors or run into trouble a lot, use dynamite. If you're a speed king and fear nothing, pick the weapon you feel good with. You can manipulate your hearts to give you an easier boss. There is strategy to be had other than run fast. You just have to be quick with your decision making.

The rush you get from getting to the boss without dropping meter is great. The reward from games like this is getting that W.

 

[VariantX]

I wouldn't lump house of dead ninja's in the same crowd as those others. The levels are randomized to a degree which keeps things a bit more fresh. The equipment selection and powerups allow the player to tackle an obstacle/challenge in multiple ways than simply jumping over it. The game feels more like it wants you to get to the end as fast as possible instead of just getting to the goal. I can't say the same for the others in that list where it just demands you jump perfectly or die, over and over again.

 

[fabprems]

Well OP, I agree with you, but I think we're in the minority here

I love plateformers, but for me they are not about being able to finish a level (cause I know that except if the game is broken, I will always complete it), they're about enjoying the ride, finding alternative paths, being surprise, improvising jumps and almost falling into that pit but escape at the last second...

The plateformers you name in the OP made me feel like a monkey passing tests. Luckily for us there's still rayman/nsmb/dk style of plateformers out there, so there's a little something for everybody I guess !

That can be satisfying for a lot of people.

Its really the same premise with real-life racing(and thus racing sims). The point is to always try and be as absolutely perfect as you can at all times as mistakes are punished heavily. So you practice and iron out mistakes little bit by little bit until you can achieve satisfactory results. That's the learning curve and its nearly impossible to be perfect, so the skill ceiling remains almost infinitely high.

That's quite a good analogy, especialy since I always prefered arcade than sim racing
We should categorize arcade plateformers and sim plateformers !

 

[Tawpgun]

No learning curve in meatboy? That game was basically textbook game design in learning curves.

Every level introduces you to a way different way to traverse and different obstacles, and then those obstacles/enemies get more insane, but you are conditioned to know how to beat them.

Super Meat Boy was so fucking satisfying.

 

[Bentles]

I don't know about the others but VVVVVV totally avoids (basically) all problems about being too difficult by having super granular checkpoints. You only ever have to master a tiny section of the game at once so it's never that bad and it's super fast and easy to try again.