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Monetization of our time is evil. Gamers regroup !
- Thread starter Solal
- Start date
Salvor.Hardin
Banned
If they're really making the grinding more difficult in order to lure in purchases for unlockables, then yeah, I definitely think it's fucked up. But do we have any evidence of this happening?
Some of the grinding on games like Temple Run 2 is fucking ridiculous and I hope that doesn't transfer to these games.
molnizzle
Member
It's not broken though, it's just like every other game that's come before it. The $10 DLC was to skip a portion of the game that would have been there regardless. Yesterday's cheat codes are today's $10 DLC. Maybe that gets you worked up too, but duders, there are far greater injustices in the world today that are more worthy of your time and energy. Stuff like this just gives people like me the option to skip some of the unpleasantries inherent in video game progression. If you prefer to trade your time rather than your money, you can. I appreciate at least having the option though.
I am not sure I get your point here. I know that grinding exists since forever... my problem is when it's coupled with monetization.
How many cars does GT6 come with on disc?
Unlike monetization, games were never designed with cheat codes in mind. A F2P game plays drastically different than a complete game you paid for.
Unlike monetization, games were never designed with cheat codes in mind. A F2P game plays drastically different than a complete game you paid for.
SaintMadeOfPlaster
Member
Yep. Not sure how this fact doesn't sink in for some people.
It's not as simple as just ignoring in game transactions in a $60 product. That stuff is in there so you notice it and feel the grind, sometimes egregiously so, and that alone affects design and player experience. We used to have cheat codes to break the game and go nuts for a bit, now we have pay to win and lottery style systems that don't even guarantee you get what you're looking for. It's very distasteful and it's going to get worse. Seems like a core philosophy for many publishers and developers nowadays.
I'm agreeing with you. But I didn't feel like your post was clear about what monetization does to grinding.
Expensive cars in games are more expensive because they're better, so people will want them more. That's fine, and that's normal. But microtransactions encourage developers to make those prices onerous, so they can present a faster shortcut that costs real dollars, which players might take.
We agree. The problem with grinding, when coupled with monetization, is that monetization encourages developers to make the grind more punishing and less rewarding for non-paying players. It's not a pairing I want to encourage.
You are missing the point my witch friend. We are not against the option to skip boring stuff.
We are again a business model that makes more money the more boring.
As soon as you monetize the gaming mechanics, you are tempted (talk about a euphemism!) to optimize the gaming mechanics rentability. As I said: not make the game better, but make the game just long/frustrating/hard enough to make players open they wallet.
In a F2P game, i don't find it that shocking. But when you already payed 60 bucks, you don't want top be captive of the dev's greed.
Don't you see what is pervert in here?
RpgN
Junior Member
The thing with Xbone and no DRM, was that it was easier to achieve because you could target specific companies. This microtransaction is being used by mutiple companies, it's a wide spread issue that is going to be way more difficult to tackle.
However, I had little faith that gamers could achieve success with the Xbone in the first place, it would not hurt to give this problem a try.
The way to go on about it, just like the last time, is you need the right connections. You need to reach mainstream (non-gaming) journalists and channels for them to spread the word. This tipped the balance and informed mainstream gamers. We have to make sure all type of gamers know about this and what it means to them.
The other problem is though, some gamers do genuinely rather pay to unlock stuff when they don't have time. Though, this should apply to games with normal grinding policy instead of increasing the grindng on purpose to force more people to pay, especially for 60 euros games. What might work with free or mobile games, is not welcome here.
However, I had little faith that gamers could achieve success with the Xbone in the first place, it would not hurt to give this problem a try.
The way to go on about it, just like the last time, is you need the right connections. You need to reach mainstream (non-gaming) journalists and channels for them to spread the word. This tipped the balance and informed mainstream gamers. We have to make sure all type of gamers know about this and what it means to them.
The other problem is though, some gamers do genuinely rather pay to unlock stuff when they don't have time. Though, this should apply to games with normal grinding policy instead of increasing the grindng on purpose to force more people to pay, especially for 60 euros games. What might work with free or mobile games, is not welcome here.
gutterboy44
Member
I'd go further. The game doesn't even have to be intentionally broken. By having microtransactions in a game that do nothing other than function as a "cheat" code, and provide no additional content, you open Pandora's box. As soon as this is standard *shudders* what will be the next gameplay mechanic to jump behind a paywall? My guess is multiple endings. You will have the option to purchase alternate endings. And guess what that means? Kiss youtube and twitch streams good bye. For people like me who are perfectly comfortable watching game story on youtube for games they know they will never play or finish, this is going to blow. Or for franchises you jump in to and don't want to play the first game or two in the series. If they have the opportunity to make money, they are going to have to lock down any systems that allow you to skirt the paywall.
ab.aeterno
Member
Yeah, microtransactions by themselves aren't necessarily bad, but their use generally is. Farmville started this tend of purposefully designing a game to be laborious and allowing people to pay to temporarily overcome the poor design, and it's gotten worse.
It's holding our time hostage and asking us what it's worth to us. Sure, you can grind for 5 hours to get this car because we designed it so you'd have to grind for 5 hours, or you can pay us a dollar and get it now.
It's insidious.
It's holding our time hostage and asking us what it's worth to us. Sure, you can grind for 5 hours to get this car because we designed it so you'd have to grind for 5 hours, or you can pay us a dollar and get it now.
It's insidious.
Ok. Now I get your point : my OT is a bit messy. ;-P
molnizzle
Member
Totally, and that makes perfect sense. However, I've yet to play a (non-f2p) game that I felt was doing this. As I said before, the progression system in NFS Rivals is exactly what you'd expect from a racing game. It's not overly long or boring. The $10 DLC I bought clearly felt like an "extra," not something that I felt forced into buying due to shady game design.
You're absolutely right that there's a fine line though.
RpgN
Junior Member
Many Players like and want to grind for rank and unlocks
Others despise it.
As Long as you progress at a reasonable rate i don't mind the "pay to unlock everything option".
Not having acces to everything you bought in a game without investing time into it is a paradox that has always exited in games.
Others despise it.
As Long as you progress at a reasonable rate i don't mind the "pay to unlock everything option".
Not having acces to everything you bought in a game without investing time into it is a paradox that has always exited in games.
RpgN
Junior Member
Good, I'll be reading that Forza 5 thread that started it.
It should be mentioned though, that this has been planned for such a long time. It's publishers' wet dream to lead the industry like this. It will most likely be too difficult to stop when they're going to brute force this change, wether we like it or not.
It should be mentioned though, that this has been planned for such a long time. It's publishers' wet dream to lead the industry like this. It will most likely be too difficult to stop when they're going to brute force this change, wether we like it or not.
No evidence that I know of, just fear and speculation at this point. Somewhat justified, imo, by the past generation DLC practices. It will ultimately be very hard to tell though, some games are just ultra grindy.
I think the inherent problem is that devs don't simply design the game and then add a shortcut. They already plan the game with this shortcut in mind, so that buying in-game stuff becomes far more attractive.
shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
I support this.
I'm shipping my X1 + Forza back tomorrow unopened (too late to cancel the order from Gamestop Online). It REALLY sucks and it's going to take a lot of willpower not to open that box. But I just can't support publishers going down this route.
I totally understand that game budgets are going up and something has to give. If there's a game I enjoy, I will gladly buy expansion packs. Even micro transactions like new weapons/items don't bother me too much because at least you are paying for content.
Paying a toll to avoid time-consuming, tedious game mechanics is where I draw the line. Time to vote with our wallets AND raise a shit storm about it.
I'm shipping my X1 + Forza back tomorrow unopened (too late to cancel the order from Gamestop Online). It REALLY sucks and it's going to take a lot of willpower not to open that box. But I just can't support publishers going down this route.
I totally understand that game budgets are going up and something has to give. If there's a game I enjoy, I will gladly buy expansion packs. Even micro transactions like new weapons/items don't bother me too much because at least you are paying for content.
Paying a toll to avoid time-consuming, tedious game mechanics is where I draw the line. Time to vote with our wallets AND raise a shit storm about it.
sublimit
Banned
Same here as well.This is the first time ever i'm considering skipping a GT release.
The games i've played with the "skip" option, like Battlefield, have not felt that way at all.
It's certainly a danger that exists. But i don't buy games with exessive grind anyway, "with pay to skip" or not.
RpgN
Junior Member
I've read a bit about Forza 5. How does GT6 handle this?
Booya_base
Member
I think it's quite often a perception thing - just seeing that you can pay money to do 'X' makes you feel worse about the game (or does to me anyway).
As an example I completed Tales of Vesperia and thought it was an amazing game, totally worth the £40. After I finished it I found out you could buy money, experience, items for real money and that doesn't change the fact that it's a great game.
On the other hand, Dead Space 3 (which I actually really like) was a fine game and at no point did you need to spend real money - I easily got all the upgrades I wanted but just seeing that option every time you went to the workbench made me groan.
I'd actually love an app that automatically hid those things across all games.
As many have said, you can design a good game or a bad game regardless of what monetisation systems are in play, but there are very few where micro transactions can improve a game - the only example in my mind is a multiplayer game which is actually free so that the player base is huge (Dota, maybe Street Fighter in future)
What we really need are some whistleblowers in the industry to let us know how much publisher 'top down' revenue targets get brought down to the design level, do developers change games / cut content out after the publisher requests it, for example?
As an example I completed Tales of Vesperia and thought it was an amazing game, totally worth the £40. After I finished it I found out you could buy money, experience, items for real money and that doesn't change the fact that it's a great game.
On the other hand, Dead Space 3 (which I actually really like) was a fine game and at no point did you need to spend real money - I easily got all the upgrades I wanted but just seeing that option every time you went to the workbench made me groan.
I'd actually love an app that automatically hid those things across all games.
As many have said, you can design a good game or a bad game regardless of what monetisation systems are in play, but there are very few where micro transactions can improve a game - the only example in my mind is a multiplayer game which is actually free so that the player base is huge (Dota, maybe Street Fighter in future)
What we really need are some whistleblowers in the industry to let us know how much publisher 'top down' revenue targets get brought down to the design level, do developers change games / cut content out after the publisher requests it, for example?
I don't really mind grindy mechanics, not even if they're overly grindy. If I enjoy the game, they keep me playing and give a bit of faux sense of purpose to playing and I'm OK with that.
But microtransactions suck the fun out of the grind. It really feels fucking stupid when the game makes you look at the cool car/weapon/whatever you've just spent 10 hours grinding for and essentially tells you 'Good job! You know how much that 10 hour grind was worth? Exactly one dollar!"
It sucks.
But microtransactions suck the fun out of the grind. It really feels fucking stupid when the game makes you look at the cool car/weapon/whatever you've just spent 10 hours grinding for and essentially tells you 'Good job! You know how much that 10 hour grind was worth? Exactly one dollar!"
It sucks.
sublimit
Banned
I haven't read details about their microtransaction system yet and that's why i said "i'm considering it" and not "decided".
There has always been grinding in GT but if they have made it purposefully worse/longer in GT6 in order to push players to spend money unlocking in-game stuff then that will seriously put me off.
Polioliolio
Member
I will boycott all fee to pay games.
You should really have a list of users, in the header, maybe even with their real names, who promise to join the fight by not putting money into these kind of schemes.
I think that could get the ball rolling.
Anyway, I'm definitely up for it.
You should really have a list of users, in the header, maybe even with their real names, who promise to join the fight by not putting money into these kind of schemes.
I think that could get the ball rolling.
Anyway, I'm definitely up for it.
shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
If someone found a cheat/hack/dupe to unlock the best cars instantly, they would be banned from multiplayer.
Paying 100 Euros for it is perfectly fine, though.
Fuck this. I'll stick with Steam and Wii U if that's how this generation is going to play out.
Paying 100 Euros for it is perfectly fine, though.
Fuck this. I'll stick with Steam and Wii U if that's how this generation is going to play out.
Would you, perhaps, pay a small fee on a game by game basis for the privilege to do so?
As for whistleblowers, not seeing many in positions of influence that are passionate about the issue, just mild annoyance and academic discussion. I do suspect this will change the more it gets forced down our throats, but it's the worst and most cynical trend in gaming going right now as far as I'm concerned.
RpgN
Junior Member
I see, it makes sense what you're saying.
It going to be fun following this generation from a spectator point of view. I'm not going to get any of the consoles except for the PS4 after a couple of years maybe (maybe the Wii U but that's a very unlikely outcome, who knows though). If this stuff creaps too often, I can at least have the choice to avoid things.
It's sad that there are many gamers who are genuinely excited about the new generation, buy their consoles in advance, spend a considerable amount of money on games/DLC/accessories and then they will have to deal with this. It's not going to be easy to get rid of consoles or stand up against policies they don't believe in, after investing all that time and money. Not many people can do this or admit it.
You know, if people simply didn't give them money for this sort of thing, they'd stop. But people do, which suggests there's some desire for this in the gaming community.
I'll buy DLC, but never pay for unlocks that I could get by grinding. Everyone draws their own line somewhere.
I'll buy DLC, but never pay for unlocks that I could get by grinding. Everyone draws their own line somewhere.
shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
I wouldn't call it "desire", more like "tolerance".
dragonelite
Member
Too be fair i would probably have done the same in about 3~4 years.
Almost done with uni so time to get an fulltime job less time to play.
I still hope Killzone devs:Shadow fall model takes over no more shitty unlocks in shooters only fun when possible.
flyinpiranha
Member
This is my biggest issue. It's funny, I remember STACKS of nickels/quarters going to an arcade machine where they made it practically impossible to play for a while without having to dump more money in. Then home consoles hit big and all those arcade games started showing up and it was awesome, because I could just hit CONTINUE.
Now, I really hope a game doesn't get designed around that idea of sucking money from me but I know it will.
My problem is that I still enjoy the games. Sony gave me $10 for buying a PS4 and I bought some NBA2K14 VC points and pumped up my player, the MyCareer is so much more fun. Between a kid, fiance, job, and other hobbies ... I honestly don't give a shit if I pay $5 to boost my stats for my personal offline game. That $5 saved me hours of grinding a game that I already find somewhat difficult but enjoyable to play.
I don't mind this type of DLC. What I do mind is what is mentioned in the post I quoted ... when they design the game specifically to funnel players to purchase shit because the other option is not desirable.
I also think the Forza 5 LeFerrari is a fucking joke. Withholding one of the most elite supercars for in-game rewards such as finishing a season or a high purchase price is one thing ... but making you PAY REAL MONEY just to get access to it is fucking bullshit.
Polioliolio
Member
Have you actually dropped money to save time in a game?
I don't mean to be disrespetcful, but how hard is it to just say "no"?
Did you guys never get the talk from Mgruff? I might be mixing things up here.. anyway, his tagline is still legitimate for this case.
Just play something else that's going to respect you and your time more made or published by people less crooked.
Nightbringer
Don´t hit me for my bad english plase
I stopped reading the first post when it said that the price of the things are related to the cost. It seems that some people live in 1848.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Havent bought anything like this since 2008.
And that's endgame.
After an entire generation of bribing playerbases with meaningless Fillin' Bars "rpg elements" and getting out of in-game effort even if it unbalanced the game, they have found in Generation 8 the worst reaction possible: the nastiest F2P model slapped onto $60 games.
Elements like the above (and cutting bits out to sell for more than the game itself sells for) are designed specifically to tempt those with infatuation or impulse control issues, and attack the very core of game design. All that talk of grinding being inherently "bad" disappears quickly when you can slap a $5 fee onto avoiding it.
And that's endgame.
After an entire generation of bribing playerbases with meaningless Fillin' Bars "rpg elements" and getting out of in-game effort even if it unbalanced the game, they have found in Generation 8 the worst reaction possible: the nastiest F2P model slapped onto $60 games.
Elements like the above (and cutting bits out to sell for more than the game itself sells for) are designed specifically to tempt those with infatuation or impulse control issues, and attack the very core of game design. All that talk of grinding being inherently "bad" disappears quickly when you can slap a $5 fee onto avoiding it.
Or he paid $70 for the privilege of playing a game that he felt was worth $70 to him.
Tx for your input. I really appreciate when people post just to look smarter than others.
Quick, run to your wife and tell her how you ridiculed someone on the web !
I think only maybe once years ago in a Tiger Woods game I got for free. Not a huge golf fan, and just wanted to mess around with customization with a good maxed out character. I think that's the only time I caved. I do buy DLC if I think the content is worthwhile to me at the price offered. However, it's very situational for me. I have a very low tolerance for monetization schemes in F2P games where the game is blatantly designed for you to keep paying money to grind.
robertsan21
Member
Great thread and lets start adding staff at sony and other important people in the industry to the OP please so we know who to tweet etc.
This shit has to stop.
imagine of it gets as bad as in iOS games....
The scary thing is that when dev´s see how profitable this crap is, they will start creating an inferior product and launch it, hoping for the customers to pay extra for better weapons etc.
WE need to force Sony to put a demand in to devs that they cant add stuff like that, the only thing they are allowed to charge for should be new missions, new maps or super fiscal stuff like gun cammo etc. NOTHING that improves stats or gives an advantage in multiplayer mode etc.
This shit has to stop.
imagine of it gets as bad as in iOS games....
The scary thing is that when dev´s see how profitable this crap is, they will start creating an inferior product and launch it, hoping for the customers to pay extra for better weapons etc.
WE need to force Sony to put a demand in to devs that they cant add stuff like that, the only thing they are allowed to charge for should be new missions, new maps or super fiscal stuff like gun cammo etc. NOTHING that improves stats or gives an advantage in multiplayer mode etc.
That is exactly the problem for many of us. Do you think that without microtransactions they would have put the same level of grinding into the game? before this crap started game designers had to balance how to give you a lenghty experience while keeping you entertained. Too easy, I might not buy your next game. Too difficult, I might not buy your next game.
This is not about buying cosmetic stuff (which I hate also), this is about not accepting the Free 2 Play model into games we pay for.
This is along with always online games, FTP mechanics, and a huge lack of focus on game design is why I'll be skipping next-gen for a year to see how things play out.
Thank god for companies like From, Nintendo and Platinum. Most your companies can go suck my dick with thier practices.
Thank god for companies like From, Nintendo and Platinum. Most your companies can go suck my dick with thier practices.
