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Monetization of our time is evil. Gamers regroup !

a916

Member
I'll stop "pissing" when I find those "happy" about this.

coughLEAGUEOFLEGENDScough ... there's millions playing that game. If someone values their time more than their money (as any right person should and would), paying X amount of money to unlock everything in BF (which took 3-6 hours to work for) versus grinding for 50 hours is a value that should be determined by each consumer. But go ahead, throw a blanket statement across everyone because you're unhappy about this.

Here's a shock to you... they wouldn't do this if there wasn't a market for this. And guess what, there is. /reason

Shills. Shills are happy.

Riiight. Anyone that has an opposite view of you is apparently a shill, good knowing that.
 

Shosai

Banned
Every time something like this has come up, there were always people defending it, why? Who knows, it seems like a small thing but that is precisely the point. A dollar or 2 for a piece of armor seems minor, then another transaction, and another, and more of them, and then this one, and then that one, and before you know it, you are spending hundreds of dollars on one game, which is giving you the same amount of content if not even less than it did on your SNES or PSX games.

Some people defend these things, because different people have different opinions on the value of goods and services. It's really no mystery. I'm sure you're willing to defend your own purchasing decisions, even when other people might deem those a waste of money.

No one is going to dump hundreds of dollars on a game unless they feel it's worth it. If Bethesda starts charging hundreds for their games, then they're going to lose 99% of their audience in favor of games that offer a better value. It's as simple as that.
 
I don't even know why we are still having an conversation about why monetisation in traditional games is a bad thing, don't they read other game sites? With the likes of Facebook games, EA and Diablo 3 and articles on Gamesulta there are plenty essays and discussions about it. Game sites have only recently stopped talking about because the next gen hype train is in full steam.

I think someone needs to make a comprehensive thread linking articles and videos that cover the full scope of it, from what energy / progression systems in Facebook Games are, Diablo 3 PC tweaking drops like a MMO, buying lives (as a pre order) in the latest Sonic game the slippery slope everything.
 

Solal

Member
Guys: look at the past gen (PS3, 360, Wii).

Do you really trust Peter Moore, Matsuda, Phil Spencer, Kotick, Kozuki, Guillemot, and the likes... to make the right decisions ?

Anyone who follows the videogame industry knows that it is going through a huge management/production crisis. It was especially true for Japan, but EA and MS (with their DRM shit) proved that America has their trolls too.

With them at the helm, expect the worst. Which is exactly what is happening with this monetization shit.
Slowly but surely.
 

RMI

Banned
Telling gamers to simply not pay is getting closer and closer to telling them to not bother playing. It's harder and harder to find games that don't have these elements contained within.

This is true, and a lot of gamers are already making this choice. It's a bit hyperbolic to say that it's getting harder and harder to find full price games with f2p monetization structures in them though. There are plenty; it's just that the f2p shit is cropping up more and more and it's so gross when it happens that it really sticks out.
 
coughLEAGUEOFLEGENDScough ... there's millions playing that game. If someone values their time more than their money (as any right person should and would), paying X amount of money to unlock everything in BF (which took 3-6 hours to work for) versus grinding for 50 hours is a value that should be determined by each consumer. But go ahead, throw a blanket statement across everyone because you're unhappy about this.

Here's a shock to you... they wouldn't do this if there wasn't a market for this. And guess what, there is. /reason



Riiight. Anyone that has an opposite view of you is apparently a shill, good knowing that.

I can start League of Legends right now for free. Big freaking difference and a terrible example.

And yes, anyone that's gonna sit here and argue that shoving pay-2-win mechanics in a retail $60 game is "good" for gaming is either a shill, an apologist or a shameless whore.
 

stevil

Junior Member
Some people defend these things, because different people have different opinions on the value of goods and services. It's really no mystery. I'm sure you're willing to defend your own purchasing decisions, even when other people might deem those a waste of money.

No one is going to dump hundreds of dollars on a game unless they feel it's worth it. If Bethesda starts charging hundreds for their games, then they're going to lose 99% of their audience in favor of games that offer a better value. It's as simple as that.
apparently there are whales people who like to pay a shit load of money for digital stuff. Just because there is a market for it doesn't make it right
 

a916

Member
Some people defend these things, because different people have different opinions on the value of goods and services. It's really no mystery. I'm sure you're willing to defend your own purchasing decisions, even when other people might deem those a waste of money.

No one is going to dump hundreds of dollars on a game unless they feel it's worth it. If Bethesda starts charging hundreds for their games, then they're going to lose 99% of their audience in favor of games that offer a better value. It's as simple as that.

This is something that apparently a lot of people don't get...
 

Clockwork5

Member
Still a lot of noise in this thread. A lot of people complaining that additional content is available for thier favorite games, and a lot of hyperbole and fear.

But the only example anyone can give of a retail game that punishes you for not paying is Diablo 3. Which was shit, it was a stupid decision and blizzard is changing the game. I don't see this as an issue.

Believe me. If DLC didn't exist neither would the additional content. Or we would be paying $80 per game. The price of a videogame is roughly half of what it was in the NES era and those games sucked and had a laughable amount of content compared to today's games.
 
There is no way that any game will have its content cut out and then later sold to us online for a additional price

There is no way that any game will have content hidden on the disc, so they can later unlock it and claim its newly developed content


There is no way that a RPG will sell you horse armor for real money

There is no way that a big game like FIFA or NBA 2k will have in game currency which you can buy more of with real money

There is no way that you will be able to spend real money to improve your boxer in a boxing game like Fight Night Champion

There is no way anyone would ever even contemplate making a console that is always online


There is no way that any company would try to block used games


There is no way that a 60 dollar game will include micro transactions



Oh but they will find a way, they always do, and they will keep building ways to extract as much money as they can out of you, a dollar here, and a dollar there. Thinking this is the "end" of their greedy ways is being naive, they will push it as much as they can.

Every time something like this has come up, there were always people defending it, why? Who knows, it seems like a small thing but that is precisely the point. A dollar or 2 for a piece of armor seems minor, then another transaction, and another, and more of them, and then this one, and then that one, and before you know it, you are spending hundreds of dollars on one game, which is giving you the same amount of content if not even less than it did on your SNES or PSX games.

But of course /tinfoil hat. These companies would never do that to us.

If game companies make a bunch of little unnecessary trinkets and people feel the need to buy every single one they are being reinforced to do it. Easy solution don't buy silly things just because they are offered. If you get enjoyment out of it cool and you like the skin you bought then good. If you don't, then don't buy it. Simple.

There's a lot of stuff to say about it. I'm not siding with companies taking out content or pay to win models but I'm not going to get in to it. There are just too many things I can say back and I don't want to waste my time because as this discussion has been saying time is money.
 
So theres a house with mom and dad and 3 kids. 3 kids play 3 games laden with Microtransactions. A new piece of kit costs 2 Euro / Dollars...Mom & Dad could potentially have to fork out 6 Euro nightly to keep the peace at home. That's almost 70 bucks a week...extreme case but you get the message.

It's a snide, underhanded tactic by the corpos to get into the parents pockets via their pleading kids...

Woeful disregard for those that keep the gaming industry alive

gah!
 

Mudkips

Banned
Fuck 'em, here's how I do it:

1: Wait for the $40 "Game of the Year Edition" with a bunch of shit included.

2: Buy used and skip the "online pass" bullshit because the tacked on multiplayer is trash anyway.

There's no reason to pay $60 + additional shit for DLC. A little bit of patience will save you a lot of money. You have a massive backlog to deal with anyway.
 

Neff

Member
DLC and microtransactions were employed to offset losses from used games and rentals last gen, they sure as hell aren't going anywhere as game budgets continue to rise.

Buy fewer games, at launch, at full price, and keep them, or suffer shit like this. You can't have it both ways.
 

Into

Member
Some people defend these things, because different people have different opinions on the value of goods and services. It's really no mystery. I'm sure you're willing to defend your own purchasing decisions, even when other people might deem those a waste of money.

No one is going to dump hundreds of dollars on a game unless they feel it's worth it. If Bethesda starts charging hundreds for their games, then they're going to lose 99% of their audience in favor of games that offer a better value. It's as simple as that.


The only people who even have a reason to defend it are people who own stocks in these companies, or in some way or fashion make money off these things (royalities for example).

We arent talking about what you like or do not like, aka do you enjoy racing games? Do you enjoy japanese porn? Do you enjoy real italian pasta? Do you enjoy climbing? Do you enjoy break dancing?

We are talking about people who are arguing for paying more money for some product. Are there people on this earth who enjoy paying more for their things? This is not a "well some people like that, ya know, you need to respect yo know.. what people like". For most of us, we have limited currency, we should naturally all want to pay least amount as possible.

Value is subjective, if you think paying 200 dollars to get most of out Forza is worthwhile, then go for it, tiger! But arguing for paying more money for something makes zero sense, unless like i said you are either a shareholder or you derive some sort of weird pleasure from seeing some nameless corporation make money.

There is no argument here, no person has ever said "well i just like paying more dammit! LEAVE ME ALONE!".
 
DLC and microtransactions were employed to offset losses from used games and rentals last gen, they sure as hell aren't going anywhere as game budgets continue to rise.

Buy fewer games, at launch, at full price, and keep them, or suffer shit like this. You can't have it both ways.
Pretty much this.

Personally, I like the F2P model that League of Legends follows. You can play for free or spend a ton of money on it, depending on your preference (as long as the money is only for cosmetic purposes). I think Killer Instinct isn't half bad either, where you can end up paying more money up to what the full price of the game would be, regardless. But having to fork out 60 bucks for a console game where you can/have to spend even more money to advance/progress quicker does reek of commercialism. That being said, we live in a free country. Choose to buy it or not buy it; that's how the market operates. So, good luck.
 

Clockwork5

Member
The only people who even have a reason to defend it are people who own stocks in these companies, or in some way or fashion make money off these things (royalities for example).

We arent talking about what you like or do not like, aka do you enjoy racing games? Do you enjoy japanese porn? Do you enjoy real italian pasta? Do you enjoy climbing? Do you enjoy break dancing?

We are talking about people who are arguing for paying more money for some product. Are there people on this earth who enjoy paying more for their things? This is not a "well some people like that, ya know, you need to respect yo know.. what people like". For most of us, we have limited currency, we should naturally all want to pay least amount as possible.

Value is subjective, if you think paying 200 dollars to get most of out Forza is worthwhile, then go for it, tiger! But arguing for paying more money for something makes zero sense, unless like i said you are either a shareholder or you derive some sort of weird pleasure from seeing some nameless corporation make money.

There is no argument here, no person has ever said "well i just like paying more dammit! LEAVE ME ALONE!".

NO ONE is paying for anything they would have gotten for free without the existence of microtransactions. The content would not be available or games would be more expensive. You realize forza is half the price Tetris was for the NES?
 

stevil

Junior Member
Still a lot of noise in this thread. A lot of people complaining that additional content is available for thier favorite games, and a lot of hyperbole and fear.

But the only example anyone can give of a retail game that punishes you for not paying is Diablo 3. Which was shit, it was a stupid decision and blizzard is changing the game. I don't see this as an issue.

Believe me. If DLC didn't exist neither would the additional content. Or we would be paying $80 per game. The price of a videogame is roughly half of what it was in the NES era and those games sucked and had a laughable amount of content compared to today's games.
It's a slippery slope not so long a go when GT wanted to try a model where you payed separate for cars everyone was mad now it's considered normal. I don't think dlc is a bad perse. I think it is okay as a reward for full price buyers or if they add extra missions etc. But to pay to speed up things is just wrong because this will end up as the default like an anti pattern. Things will be tweaked to get maximum buy in. The only thing that properly will prevent this stuff to take over are the indies they provide hopefully enough competition, thanks Sony
 
Fuck 'em, here's how I do it:

1: Wait for the $40 "Game of the Year Edition" with a bunch of shit included.

2: Buy used and skip the "online pass" bullshit because the tacked on multiplayer is trash anyway.

There's no reason to pay $60 + additional shit for DLC. A little bit of patience will save you a lot of money. You have a massive backlog to deal with anyway.

Yup. New game releases are becoming more and more like new console launches. Between the patches and "extras", you get more for a cheaper price down the line.

Only exception off the top of my head would be maybe Nintendo. Their 1st party game prices don't really go down, but then again, they usually actually sell you the actual game proper, from the get go.
 

stevil

Junior Member
NO ONE is paying for anything they would have gotten for free without the existence of microtransactions. The content would not be available or games would be more expensive. You realize forza is half the price Tetris was for the NES?
The most important reason being the price of the cartridge.
 

Biker19

Banned
I totally agree with OP. Sadly, there will be those that will always stand up for these practices.

Fuck 'em, here's how I do it:

1: Wait for the $40 "Game of the Year Edition" with a bunch of shit included.

2: Buy used and skip the "online pass" bullshit because the tacked on multiplayer is trash anyway.

There's no reason to pay $60 + additional shit for DLC. A little bit of patience will save you a lot of money. You have a massive backlog to deal with anyway.

Also agree. I don't even buy games on Day 1 anymore like I used to because of all the shit these companies keeps pulling.

I now usually wait for either GOTY Editions, etc., or wait until new copies of games comes down to something like $20 if there's no GOTY Editions, Ultimate Editions, etc.
 

Into

Member
NO ONE is paying for anything they would have gotten for free without the existence of microtransactions. The content would not be available or games would be more expensive. You realize forza is half the price Tetris was for the NES?

I distinctively remember paying anywhere from 200 to 600 kroner for my NES games, depending on how old they were. No different than my PS3 or 360 games of today, in fact ive yet to see a PS3 or 360 game cost 600kr+ unless its some limited/special edition.

If you argument is that games are cheaper today, then it falls flat on its face.
 

Solal

Member
NO ONE is paying for anything they would have gotten for free without the existence of microtransactions. The content would not be available or games would be more expensive. You realize forza is half the price Tetris was for the NES?

Come on man... do you mean all the games that came out without monetization lost money? Or were "light"?
Are you serious?

Are you really implying that you can't earn money without monetizing gamer's time ?
 

stevil

Junior Member
I distinctively remember paying anywhere from 200 to 600 kroner for my NES games, depending on how old they were. No different than my PS3 or 360 games of today, in fact ive yet to see a PS3 or 360 game cost 600kr+ unless its some limited/special edition.

If you argument is that games are cheaper today, then it falls flat on its face.
I think he is referring to inflation. But it is really the cartridge those where ridiculous expensive to make and one of the reasons N64 didn't do well
 

Clockwork5

Member
The most important reason being the price of the cartridge.

Um the cartrige cost less than $3 to manufacture.

Now we have teams of hundreds of college educated game designers, artists, voice actors pumping out 1080p graphics with millions of polygons and complex physics models. But yeah, I still want to pay half of what I paid for Tetris for a lifetime of infinite content for Skyrim. Give me a break...
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Forza 5 has an increased grind over previous versions of Forza.

Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer? Do you think the challenge of getting credits would be so high if it wasn't for micro transactions?

These are 2 examples where the game design has been changed strictly for the purpose of increasing micro transaction sales.

Increased grind and less content, all for $60. That's utter bullshit.
 
NO ONE is paying for anything they would have gotten for free without the existence of microtransactions. The content would not be available or games would be more expensive. You realize forza is half the price Tetris was for the NES?
Mhm what? You sure you're not mixing up DLC and microtransaction? Because Forza 3 had no monetization schemes and more content than Forza 5. Ryse has microtransactions but is a 5 hour long game. What extra content are we getting exactly for accepting microtransactions in our videogames?
 
In-game currency based economy microtransactions is EASILY the worst thing about video games currently, nothing else comes even close. It spread through mobile like a cancer and is going other places now.
 

Solal

Member
Um the cartrige cost less than $3 to manufacture.

Now we have teams of hundreds of college educated game designers, artists, voice actors pumping out 1080p graphics with millions of polygons and complex physics models. But yeah, I still want to pay half of what I paid for Tetris for a lifetime of infinite content for Skyrim. Give me a break...

Most games that have huge ressources make money. A lot of money.
GT, Forza, Skyrim, Mass Effect, FIFA, COD, BF, Halo, gears of war, Uncharted, TLOU, Heavy rain, FF13 (as bad as it is!),...

There are accidents of course: games that don't meet expectations.... but big games loosing money? Very rare...

Edit: I am talking about losing money before DLC. Obviously.
 

stevil

Junior Member
Um the cartrige cost less than $3 to manufacture.

Now we have teams of hundreds of college educated game designers, artists, voice actors pumping out 1080p graphics with millions of polygons and complex physics models. But yeah, I still want to pay half of what I paid for Tetris for a lifetime of infinite content for Skyrim. Give me a break...
No they cost more also you are forgetting market expansion where there are no 100 million console gamers at least back than way less that is why they actually earn more now than in the NES time. It's not that they are not making money and have to scrap to get by
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
Um the cartrige cost less than $3 to manufacture.

Now we have teams of hundreds of college educated game designers, artists, voice actors pumping out 1080p graphics with millions of polygons and complex physics models. But yeah, I still want to pay half of what I paid for Tetris for a lifetime of infinite content for Skyrim. Give me a break...

But the gaming audience is also way, way bigger. Is it the gamer's fault if some companies can't manage budgets properly?
 

Into

Member
Come on man... do you mean all the games that came out without monetization lost money? Or were "light"?
Are you serious?

Are you really implying that you can't earn money without monetizing gamer's time ?

Self interest is typically something that people who argue for these things overlook and outright ignore, because the number 1 here is the nameless corporation, not them or their wallets.

No other industry has apologists like this, you would think million and billion dollar companies would have people specifically hired to maintain realistic budgets. Instead they send the bill to the consumer, and as we have clearly seen in the last few years the amount of various bills is rising. Micro transactions in boxed games is just another bill passed on.

And like i originally wrote, if you seriously believe this is the last "bill", then you are extreme naive. And if you believe this has no impact on how games are designed, then you have not played games like NBA 2k, Fight Night Champion, Diablo 3 in its first year, Plants vs Zombies 2 and many MANY others.
 

mclem

Member
The only people who even have a reason to defend it are people who own stocks in these companies, or in some way or fashion make money off these things (royalities for example).

Or want high-budget games to continue to be commercially viable.

I don't, particularly, but these forms of monetisation are a crutch to allow for increased budgets.
 

mclem

Member
But the gaming audience is also way, way bigger. Is it the gamer's fault if some companies can't manage budgets properly?

The audience hasn't grown at a rate to match the increased cost of development; the costs of development are much, much, much bigger. That's a significant part of the problem.
 

The Crimson Kid

what are you waiting for
It isn't useful to damn every game that has micro transactions, but rather to focus on the ones that have the progression in those games artificially lengthened or padded out in order to incentivize you to buy DLC to move things along.This concept is the foundation of the F2P model, which is only a few years old really.

It is useful to warn against the games that are proven to have done this to incentivize purchasing virtual currency, because it negatively affects everyone who bought the game.

But it does no good to prematurely damn games that just have the presence of DLC or currency purchases before we have a good idea of if progression is artificially lengthened or not to incentivize those purchases.

It seems like the big offender here is Forza 5. Multiple reviews have clearly demonstrated that it takes several hours of play to earn enough currency to get a million credits, and plenty of cars will cost that or more. Also, considering that the game has a pretty small offering of career modes and tracks, getting all the cars unlocked would require repeating every event several times over if you didn't want to buy virtual currency, which is blatantly exploitative and awful. It's a clear case of the entire experience being altered with the intent that you are tempted to buy virtual currency.

The other big offender being identified is GTA online, which isn't anywhere near as bad for several reasons. First off, there are hundreds of missions and plenty of various activities to do, and even completing all of that once over would take around 100 hours. And you don't even have to do that stuff to get EXP and cash. Sure, the progression is slow, but there's plenty to do without unneeded repetition, and you can't buy your way to the top anyways due to not being able to purchase EXP boosters. That situation would be way worse if you could drop $20 and get the mini gun to tear everyone up in MP who have put 30-50 hours in.

However, on the other hand, most console games have totally optional DLC that don't affect the game for those who don't buy it at all.

There are several games from EA this generation that I've thoroughly enjoyed (NFS: Most Wanted 2005, NFS Hot Pursuit and the Skate games) that had paid options to unlock everything. You unlocked everything by playing normally, content unlocked at a quick pace, and the games were enjoyable from beginning to end and beyond. The presence of an option to unlock everything did not have any effect on the game, so why should I skip out on a game just because there is something available for sale that I wont want and have no need for?

In an ideal world, we would just have cheat codes, but now these publishers have the option to profit off of creating simple unlocks for sale. These take so little effort to create that it's just pure profit for them, so I don't expect this kind of option to go away.

Also, for all the crap that CoD and BF get for their season passes, those are pretty fantastic deals for those who really enjoy and play a lot of those games. I purchased the BF3 Premium for PC for $20 several months ago, and for a package that was less than the price of the original game, you get more maps than were in the original game, along with new weapons, vehicles, and even a couple new gameplay mechanics, and none of it is rehashed or lazy. And actually, most of them are better than the maps in the base game. Plenty of season passes are pretty scummy, but most anyone who has purchased the recent CoD or BF season passes will tell you that they don't just phone it in by any stretch. And if you are way into that game, it will be a great deal to more than double the amount of MP content in the game for less than the cost of the original game.

At some point though, if i like playing a game, i play it a lot and unlock everything anyway. Why would i pay to skip that?

If i think a game sucks i won't unlock everything in the first place and therefore don't care about unlocks or whatever i didn't get.

If a game is so bad you can't have fun without paying for DLC, i simply won't buy it.

Yep. At the end of the day, I'm playing a game because it is fun to play, and I'm not going to bother buying anything extra in a game I don't enjoy. And if a game artificially stretches out the progression in an attempt to get you to buy DLC, then that game is not going to be as fun. If I read about on e of these games, then I won't buy it, and if I bought a game and found out that it did do this, I would likely burn out on the game due to repetitiveness before I went and bought anything.

Very slippery. Just look at how many games have XP, crafting and unlock systems. Its infecting a lot of games that could be just fine if not better without them, and its exactly these kinds of "RPG elements" and progression systems being shoehorned into games for monetization potential. Similar to how everything had to be multiplayer with map packs, and now everything has to be always-online, err, I mean a connected experience, blurring the lines between single player and multiplayer.

In isolation and even moderation all of these things can be OK when properly utilized. But history doesn't paint a pretty picture here.

History paints a picture that is the opposite of what you are claiming. The F2P model of stretching out progression in order to tempt people into spending money has only been popular for a few years now, and while there are signs that fullprice game are taking some of those tactics, there are very few cases of this actually happening. Subscription based MMOs have been around for nearly 15 years now, and while they very well could've slowed down progression in order to get you to buy cash or EXP boosters, that trend didn't catch on in MMOs until a couple years ago.

Out of the hundreds of RPG's released on consoles this generation, only a couple let you buy items or EXP with real currency. Aside from Diablo 3 and ME3 MP, most of them were niche JRPGs. The only one I played was Tales of Vesperia, and I and anyone else who played that game will tell you that progression was not hamstrung by those options. I didn't play ME3 MP and I stayed the hell away from Diablo 3 for plenty of reasons, and Blizzard openly admits that the RMAH was a big mistake.

And while the introduction of RPG-lite elements into lots of games these days could potentially give opportunity for monetizing in the future, there is extremely little indication from the past that they will. Since COD:Modern Warfare started this trend of putting RPG-lite mechanics into everything in an attempt to make their game more addictive or feature-rich, of the hundreds of games that followed, the only game I'm aware of that sold unlocks to get you to the top to unlock everything was BF3. And items unlock quicker in BF4, even though they weren't much of a grind in BF3. But I never played bf3 for the grind, I played it because the MP was ridiculously intense and rewarding on its own.

While plenty of games are using those kinds of systems as a crutch at times to make them supposedly more involving or to create the illusion of depth, practically none of those games are selling EXp or cash boosters. It doesn't do anyone any good to create a pattern out of thin air to fit a conspiracy theory.

The only single-player exceptions I'm aware of are Forza Horizon and 5. While Forza Horizon was rife with micro transactions, the game was still easy to progress through and really fun. The presence of that stuff did not negatively impact the gameplay experience. It seems as if the rate of progress has been drastically slowed in Forza 5 to get you to buy virtual currency, and that would be a deal breaker for me if I were planning to get that game.
 
I'm all for supporting sruggling devs & IPs and have argued for harmless pieces of DLC which alot of ppl automatically hated. However F2P / MMO monetisation is such a corrosive thing to the core game design that the game stops been worth defending at that point.

That's why I worry about niche games from companies like Atlus that have a fanatical following, because the are very quick to shut down anybody who would give them bad press and convince themselves that monetisation Isn't a bad thing and the slippery slope doesn't exist. Which is such a shame imo, because those niche devs such as those pander to their fans the most and wouldn't include monetisation if the fanbase kicked a fuss about it.
 

Dire

Member
One thing I'm
not really
curious about is why reviewers aren't going after this. It seems like Forza 5 is specifically designed to try to annoy gamers into pay-to-win yet of all the reviews currently available only a handful actually mention this. The game is still managing a metacritic 82 overall as well. Not the 90+ of literally every other game in the series, but still. Repeating races for 10 hours to unlock a single car isn't fun. A game that forces that on players isn't an 8/10, it's broken.
 

Clockwork5

Member
Self interest is typically something that people who argue for these things overlook and outright ignore, because the number 1 here is the nameless corporation, not them or their wallets.

No other industry has apologists like this, you would think million and billion dollar companies would have people specifically hired to maintain realistic budgets. Instead they send the bill to the consumer, and as we have clearly seen in the last few years the amount of various bills is rising. Micro transactions in boxed games is just another bill passed on.

And like i originally wrote, if you seriously believe this is the last "bill", then you are extreme naive. And if you believe this has no impact on how games are designed, then you have not played games like NBA 2k, Fight Night Champion, Diablo 3 in its first year, Plants vs Zombies 2 and many MANY others.

Would you rather pay $60 for a game, with the option to purchase additional content or pay $90 for a game that has content you dont even care about? (NBA 2K, Fight Night etc)

I for one am happy that the devs are giving us options. I dont mind paying less for a striped down version.if I dont need the bells and whistles, i like to have that option.

Some of you have this idea that retail games will be, should be and could never not be $60. I for one am appreciative that developers are getting creative and figuring out ways to achieve this in spite of the fact that games get more expensive each generation due to demands voiced from the gaming community.

I am still waiting to hear from anyone about a full retail game that punishes players for not paying. (we have discussed diablo, blizzard changed that, which is why i think there is a major disconnect from reality in this thread about all the slippery slope bullshit...)
 

Clockwork5

Member
One thing I'm
not really
curious about is why reviewers aren't going after this. It seems like Forza 5 is specifically designed to try to annoy gamers into pay-to-win yet of all the reviews currently available only a handful actually mention this. The game is still managing a metacritic 82 overall as well. Not the 90+ of literally every other game in the series, but still. Repeating races for 10 hours to unlock a single car isn't fun. A game that forces that on players isn't an 8/10, it's broken.

Neither is reading blatant hyperbole.
 

Alchemy

Member
Out of interest, do you not reward the developers of said free-to-play games at all? I mean, you're not obligated to, but even so... if I like a game, I do try to make sure I reward the devs.

I have yet to play a free to play title where a reward was deserved, then again I rarely play free to play games. A majority of the ones I have tried are about abusing reward loops, progression, and social pressure to force players to pay to achieve what they can't by being a free user. And this payment is recurring if you want to maintain status, such as constantly moving goal posts in a game's metagame to remain competitive or endless progress bars.

These systems are never ending, because developers are constantly trying to engage users with their store front. These games generally encourage players to spend as much and as frequent as possible. I don't find that enjoyable. I very much prefer paying for an experience up front and leaving real world economics out of my play experience.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
In addition, doing some quick napkin math, the two listed as "Great Value" are the worst deals of the bunch.

What a shady bunch of shit.
This is genuinely disgusting. You can sell all the dlc you want and I don't care but this is calling people outright stupid.
 

Dire

Member
Neither is reading blatant hyperbole.

I wish it were hyperbole:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-11-20-forza-motorsport-5-review/

....All that's left is the grind, and it's not a particularly pleasant one. Unlike previous outings, cars don't unlock upon levelling up. Everything must be bought in Forza Motorsport 5, and all transactions take place in a slightly misshapen economy. A series will, on average, net the player in excess of 110,000 credits for just under an hour's effort - but with some of the premium racecars costing well over a million, it's a somewhat brutal grind. Good job, then, that there are tokens purchasable on the Xbox One's marketplace for you to attain the car you're after, or to temporarily boost the rate at which you gain XP. When you've already paid £429.99 for a new console, £44.99 for the game and maybe even £349.99 for the only steering wheel that the game supports at launch, such tricks appear a little unsavoury, and in Forza 5, mechanics greedily smuggled from free-to-play games trample over the elegant RPG elements the series once embraced so effectively....
 
Anyone whose response to this stuff is like "well developers HAVE to turn their games into glorified redemption games because they HAVE to have huge budgets because they HAVE to, [INSERT STATISTIC ABOUT INFLATION HERE]" are villains.
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
Would you rather pay $60 for a game, with the option to purchase additional content or pay $90 for a game that has content you dont even care about? (NBA 2K, Fight Night etc)

I for one am happy that the devs are giving us options. I dont mind paying less for a striped down version.if I dont need the bells and whistles, i like to have that option.

I think we're not talking about the same thing here. DLC expansions are fine. The problem is with artificial limitations put into the game design, where you have to pay to skip grinding for example (GTA Online, Forza, etc.).
 

Grayman

Member
I was against these time wasting mechanics before they were tied to revenue. People should have organized against bad practices before they entered most games.
 
I have to say, I doubt there''s anyone out there happy about it. It just comes down to if it's a problem or not to the gameplay itself.

Edit: Well, those making money off it are probably happy, but in the context of gamers, I doubt it.

I'd honestly argue many ain't. It's very risky fleecing ones customers repeatedly. Desperate men do things non-desperate men would not and all that.

coughLEAGUEOFLEGENDScough ... there's millions playing that game.

And Riot made not one cent in sales of the game unlike what the entire thread is about.

You have posts and links to reread. Alot of posts and links.
 

Clockwork5

Member
Anyone whose response to this stuff is like "well developers HAVE to turn their games into glorified redemption games because they HAVE to have huge budgets because they HAVE to, [INSERT STATISTIC ABOUT INFLATION HERE]" are villains.

mmmhmmm im a villain.

why do you make such accusations?

no one is saying they have too. some game developers dont do this some do. Some games have larger budgets than others, its ok. Gamers have an expectation of a $60 or less price. Devs that want to have huge budgets (often because their fans want them to have huge budgets) get creative with DLC and microtransactions in order to get the game on the shelf at that price. its ok man.
 

Clockwork5

Member
I think we're not talking about the same thing here. DLC expansions are fine. The problem is with artificial limitations put into the game design, where you have to pay to skip grinding for example (GTA Online, Forza, etc.).

Everyone celebrated a year of grinding away thier lives on COD:MW and now that devs are giving us a chance to skip that (cause I for one am pretty bored of it)... you complain? If I know what gun I want what is the harm in allowing me to buy it for a couple bucks?

GTA online is a grind, but that is way down on the list of reasons why I dont play that garbage.

In neither of those titles do you have to pay anything to skip anything. Nor is it unreasonable to think that someone who actually enjoyed the game would be able to happily gather all of the available content.
 
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