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Beyond: Two Souls Deserved Better Sales
- Thread starter Imbarkus
- Start date
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
How did you follow David Cage's writing with reading comprehension this bad
The changes to Jodie's character were about self-realization, so it's not surprising that people used to seeing character development as "I beat a bigger monster" didn't grasp it.
I also find it hilarious that people constantly say that there were no real choices when everyone that played it seems to have had a different experiences - many people seeing completely different scenes or having completely different outcomes. Just because the choices are subtle and paths are not obvious, but hidden (as they should be) it doesn't mean they're not there. I mean the sexual assault scene it a perfect example - never happened in my game.
I also find it hilarious that people constantly say that there were no real choices when everyone that played it seems to have had a different experiences - many people seeing completely different scenes or having completely different outcomes. Just because the choices are subtle and paths are not obvious, but hidden (as they should be) it doesn't mean they're not there. I mean the sexual assault scene it a perfect example - never happened in my game.
andromeduck
Member
I want a PS4 remake
would have liked it more if it didn't look so uncanny
would have liked it more if it didn't look so uncanny
NullPointer
Member
I did buy it, but found Heavy Rain to be a much better game overall.
If you're going to remove almost all mechanics AND consequence (a big thing coming from Heavy Rain) you're left with little more than a cut-scene that the player drives forward by hitting the button.
It felt more like a Bluray "Walk the set" feature for a movie than a standalone experience.
Wasn't satisfied with my purchase at all.
If you're going to remove almost all mechanics AND consequence (a big thing coming from Heavy Rain) you're left with little more than a cut-scene that the player drives forward by hitting the button.
It felt more like a Bluray "Walk the set" feature for a movie than a standalone experience.
Wasn't satisfied with my purchase at all.
Some that I can remember from the top of my head (spoilers obviously):
- In the Homeless chapter, you can go multiple ways about
earning money. You can play a song on a guitar, you can hack an ATM, you can "accept" a job from a guy (which ends horribly of course)
During the fire in the house there are two ways the scene can end. Either Jodie escapes the burning house but gets het head smashed in by some guys in a gang, or Jodie doesn't escape and needs to be rescued. She enters a coma.
You can fail to escape the military facility and not go to the bar, thus preventing Jodie from almost being raped. This has consequences for the Dinner chapter.
During the Escape, there are many ways to get away from the CIA agents. If you get caught on the motorbike for example, you'll lose your chance to play a ~10 minute scene in which you can wreck havoc with a helicopter and a truck
There must be more, as I've only played the game once and watched my boyfriend's playthrough and from that alone I noticed the above differences. After I played the game for the first time, I thought there weren't many choices but it was only after I saw my boyfriend play the game that I learned that there actually are a lot of choices.
However it is true that the choices don't have a lot of consequences in the endings. But once again, Beyond isn't about crafting your own story, it's a retelling of Jodie's life and you can only change the details (and decide how she continues her life in the ending, of course).
Critique David Cage's writing. I'd be interested in what you find lackluster about it. I'm not interested in these vague, sweeping "he sucks at writing" statements. Tell me why he sucks at writing.
Note that I'm not defending him; I'm just interested in what NeoGAF knows about writing fiction.
Maybe that's why he liked it?
I watched someone play through the whole thing on Twitch. The story had promise until the Navajo section, then takes a very sharp nosedive and just gets worse and worse. That's all I needed to know.
First two thirds of the game was excellent, the last third felt rushed, erratic and messy.
Also, The bad writing comments are poor. Give us some examples. It had its ropey moments and questionable plot developments, but the writing overall was actually pretty decent and convincing. Especially Jodies character.
Also, The bad writing comments are poor. Give us some examples. It had its ropey moments and questionable plot developments, but the writing overall was actually pretty decent and convincing. Especially Jodies character.
AHA-Lambda
Member
I swear David Cage fanboys are the worst.
I don't know what it sold, but it should have at least sold well.
I loved it.
I loved it.
That's simply wrong.
coffeehofi
Member
Why should I pay a full price for this "YouTube friendly" game?
There's the question.
There's the question.
And at least Telltale has actual writers who know wtf they are doing
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Wait, you're criticizing me for sweeping generalizations?
I didn't play this game, I just finished saying that. I also said I didn't bitch about it because of it.
I'm sure if I cared, I could write a dissertation about everything that just didn't work in Heavy Rain, but that'd require replaying the thing at this point, which I don't care to resubmit to.
For the record, NeoGAF has plenty of published authors in its midst, but they require no defense from one such as myself.
I know that nothing David Cage has written has been memorable in the slightest, aside from that one opening line in Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy
"New York city, center of the universe..." oh and of course
"JASON!"
His writing is flat, too heavily filled with unnecessary expletives (how many times is Jodie called a slut? or a bitch? there's even one scene at the end where Cole just says Fuck about 8 or 9 times). The dialogue just feels so perfunctory rather than engaging or human.
A Beyond RPG sounds pretty good, actually. Well, as long as it's not written by Cage, of course.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I don't know about anyone else, but when I say "The choices seem to not really matter," I don't mean that they added one scene or you can miss violent sexual assault cutscenes. I haven't finished Beyond so I can't say if they have wildly divergent paths, but it does not seem so far like they do.
I levied the same complaint against The Walking Dead. Characters whom you had to make a choice whether to save or not ended up being basically written out of the story in convenient ways and that still felt like more consequence than Beyond's stuff. I think Cage's commitment to the idea that any path should lead to a contrived exit scenario ended up harming a lot of the tension.
I levied the same complaint against The Walking Dead. Characters whom you had to make a choice whether to save or not ended up being basically written out of the story in convenient ways and that still felt like more consequence than Beyond's stuff. I think Cage's commitment to the idea that any path should lead to a contrived exit scenario ended up harming a lot of the tension.
dragonbane
Member
Navajo: Essential scene in the game. Develops her character in a way that she is able to grow and accept who she is. She realizes she can use her gift to help people as well. She gains self-worth after running away for a year and realizes she has to face her past (Nathan, mother) and can't run away anymore. Without Navajo the next scene couldn't happen.
The Dinner: Explores the relationship between Jodie and Aiden, offers comedic relief after the downer scene beforehand and sets up the relationship between Jodie and Ryan (if wanted)
Homeless: Shows her at her lowest point. Again gives her the ability to help people and gain self-worth. She realizes there are people out there who are not evil and accept her for who she is (without strings attached), which she hasn't experienced before being used by Nathan and Ryan and hated by everyone else.
Hunted: Action break and shows that she no longer smiles and do as someone pleases, but is willing to fight back.
The Mission: Essential scene. Triggers her running away after feeling guilt.
CIA: Training montage, tutorial.
Chinese Condenser: Develops some story elements like the containment field. But it's the only scene I would agree is filler.
The Dinner: Explores the relationship between Jodie and Aiden, offers comedic relief after the downer scene beforehand and sets up the relationship between Jodie and Ryan (if wanted)
Homeless: Shows her at her lowest point. Again gives her the ability to help people and gain self-worth. She realizes there are people out there who are not evil and accept her for who she is (without strings attached), which she hasn't experienced before being used by Nathan and Ryan and hated by everyone else.
Hunted: Action break and shows that she no longer smiles and do as someone pleases, but is willing to fight back.
The Mission: Essential scene. Triggers her running away after feeling guilt.
CIA: Training montage, tutorial.
Chinese Condenser: Develops some story elements like the containment field. But it's the only scene I would agree is filler.
Well it could at least break even. It doesn't have to be a smash hit. If it doesn't break even we don't see more of it, which would be a shame. So I think it still deserved better sales.
Rogue_Ledr
Banned
I would have bought it if it was on PS4, like it should have been.
I got tired on last-gen systems and sold my PS3.
I got tired on last-gen systems and sold my PS3.
Hmmm. In my game Jodie
made a good first impression, got hammered, danced and made out with some English boy-band wannabe, got mocked for her inappropriate present, got teased and locked in a closet by bunch of asshole tweens looking to bond over bullying the weird kid, then took the high road and walked out of the house.
Not sure how that figures as "the worst scene" in a video game in a long time but to each their own I guess.
nikos
Member
I loved Heavy Rain and was very much looking forward to Beyond. Unfortunately, it was released at a bad time. Next gen hype (and cost) had already taken over me, and I was still picking up a few recently released current gen games.
That said, I definitely plan on getting it now that the initial "next-gen only" mentality has worn off.
EDIT: Wow, some people really need to tag spoilers in this thread.
That said, I definitely plan on getting it now that the initial "next-gen only" mentality has worn off.
EDIT: Wow, some people really need to tag spoilers in this thread.
And what is your opinion on Lovecraft?
GoodCoffeeJoey
Banned
I played Indigo Prophecy until it started getting stupid. Now I refuse to touch anything with David Cage's name on the box. Fool me once and all that.
From what I've seen of Beyond, if it were a movie: it would a good fit as a Syfy Channel original.
From what I've seen of Beyond, if it were a movie: it would a good fit as a Syfy Channel original.
KDash31987
Member
I'm still waiting on the Sega CD port.
Sega CD FMV games were way more interactive than what I got to play of this game, though.
Sega CD FMV games were way more interactive than what I got to play of this game, though.
What is your angle with the lovecraft comparison?
Damn good way to put it.
dragonbane, I love your posts but you gotta
You're right- I do hope they break even, and do better than that, just so we can still see the studio develop their creative projects!
I haven't read any of his works, I think. Why?
One line of dialogue I really dislike is where Jodie says something like
"I don't just fucking kill people because a four star general tells me to!"
Yet this happens directly after she does just that. Yes, she's upset because she thought she was doing it for the right reason, but that doesn't negate the fact that when the military told her to jump she just shrugged and asked how high.
SPOILERS if you haven't played the game.
I think what made that scene bad (this is coming from someone that liked the game), is how unbelievably cruel the kids acted at the flip of a switch. I mean, I get why kids act cruel. And I could even buy into the idea that they wanted to set her up and then make her fall. But the scene doesn't play out that way. Initially, they seem okay with her being there. When Jodie gets high, or drinks, they aren't doing it to exploit her, or make her look like a fool. It's only when she brings a terrible present that suddenly they flip their shit.
So basically, the scene is basically saying they were cool with her there (or at least weren't bothered by her), until she gave a bad present. That the birthday girl basically tolerated her, because she wanted something cool. The minute she didn't get something she wanted, suddenly the entire act is dropped, and all her friends jump on her. But that's absolutely ridiculous. Why would all these people put on an act, just so one girl can get a present?
The entire thing comes off as being a "dramatic experience" just to be dramatic. It's not organic, and feels unnatural. I actually think most of the game is well written, and don't agree with people in this thread. BUT, this scene did stick out like a sore thumb. And I guess I could see the argument that Cage wants to set up scenes that are emotional and drama driven, but that are just dramatic for the sake of being dramatic, with no build up to it. People are evil and scummy just to be evil and scummy (that bar scene comes to mind).
Then again, it doesn't help that the game is set up in a way that, you are living out memories. So it's going to feel more like bullet points of these dramatic moments, vs. getting to those dramatic moments (it's problematic for sure).
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Something between an appeal to authority and a red herring I imagine.
Although, come to think of it, Lovecraft probably could have written a book about appeals being made to a giant, red, authoritative herring
staticneuron
Member
Can't be true. How can the game have 20+ endings if your choices don't add up?
I think it is important.
It seems as if Aiden is free and the option to go back to Jodie was a choice (on his part).
Growing up I have seen that happen. I have seen it happen in scenarios with my younger siblings. It isn't that they flipped out because of a present. They flipped out on her as a group because the birthday girl took issue with jodie and the rest feel in line as a group. Jodie is the odd one out. She is the one that doesn't know the others while it is apparent the rest of them know each other.
As a huge Heavy Rain fan, I was a little disappointed with Beyond. I know GAF shits on Heavy Rain but I for one really enjoyed its characters and had no problems with QTEs, and it had some of the most tense moments in gaming I've ever experienced on the first time through without knowing what would happen if you did something. The music was also stellar. I don't take stories as seriously as most do here and don't wear a critic hat while I play games so I actually enjoyed the serial killer story, and I honestly don't get how a lot of people hate it since it sold somewhat well if I recall correctly and got good reviews.
Beyond was still enjoyable but way too oversimplified in terms of gameplay. Since a lot of people complained about QTEs, they almost completely removed them and changed it to a simple movement of the right analog stick. It's definitely not for those people who want to be in control of everything 100% of the time, but for more patient people who don't take everything seriously, it's a damn good game. Also undeniably the best looking console game pre-next gen IMO.
And I laugh whenever people bring up the whole "decisions don't matter" thing, and bring up games like Walking Dead as an example of it being done right. Overall the decisions in the Walking Dead
whereas in this game there is actually quite a few opportunities for a number of different endings. Characters I sided with since the beginning in The Walking Dead(Kenny) still treated me like an asshole through the end and I realized that all that "Kenny will remember that" stuff was BS. But no, amazing storytelling! Best writing ever!
And for those interested:http://playersdelight.blogspot.com/2013/10/beyond-two-souls-most-unique-feature-is.html
This is a stellar explanation on how the decision process actually works in Beyond.
Beyond was still enjoyable but way too oversimplified in terms of gameplay. Since a lot of people complained about QTEs, they almost completely removed them and changed it to a simple movement of the right analog stick. It's definitely not for those people who want to be in control of everything 100% of the time, but for more patient people who don't take everything seriously, it's a damn good game. Also undeniably the best looking console game pre-next gen IMO.
And I laugh whenever people bring up the whole "decisions don't matter" thing, and bring up games like Walking Dead as an example of it being done right. Overall the decisions in the Walking Dead
didn't do jack shit to affect the ending
And for those interested:http://playersdelight.blogspot.com/2013/10/beyond-two-souls-most-unique-feature-is.html
This is a stellar explanation on how the decision process actually works in Beyond.
maverick40
Junior Member
A fool of the highest order
OrlanisWorks
Banned
The scene came off comical to me. I don't know, maybe I just don't understand real life.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
Hey I don't really know you at all, but your post seems to be an example of a lot of venomous condescending hate all up in this thread, particularly directed at Cage.
Why is that?
It's easily a value of content at $60. I think it played very well for me over a month and a half, a few chapters at a time.
I get the feeling reviews were affected by the process of playing this title in concentrated time period, and maybe a lot of the negative impressions on the story many are reporting, as well.
In that regard, maybe it would have done well with an episodic release, Walking Dead or Siren style. I would have still bought the steel-book collection afterward, too.
You are probably being sarcastic.
I love Kat but every time her character spoke in that movie it was
Oof.
If all the "against" posts come off like condescending jerks, then maybe we'll get some word-of-mouth among the "cool" people this title is probably better suited for anyway...
They should probably seriously consider a port. ASAP.
fredrancour
Member
This thread makes me want to hunt a bargain-bin copy of heavy rain. I feel stingy about it cause indigo prophecy failed so hard to live to its opening scene's promise.
Was going to post that.
God is this non-linear story telling awfull. If it actually made sense or linked the various events with one another, ok. But as is, I have the impression they made the game with chronological order in mind, and at the last moment decided to break it appart, "because that's art, lolz".
peanutbutterlatte
Member
No, it didn't. There are games that did. This is not one of them. Just because it has Juno's face and voice on it doesn't indicate how well it's going to sell.
dragonbane
Member
I assume she was mostly doing it for Ryan, because she trusted him (romance or not). She was more disappointed by him than anything else. She thought she finally encountered someone who doesn't lie to her, but then exactly this happens.
Because it's a pre-rendered video.
If you choose life you can go back to Stan and his group and meet up with Zoey. Then you get the ending with both.
Oooops. Done. Thank you for pointing it out. Yeah I actually agree that the game shouldn't sell as well as Heavy Rain. It keeps Cage going and he will improve because of it. But it really should break even at least, because if Quantic gets shut down he will never fully realize his vision. And I think he is pretty close to it, so it would be a shame to stop him on the finish line.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
What the actual fuck? Did he personally piss directly into your corn flakes this morning? Man we say shit about game creators that would get us banned if we said it about each other.
...juniors these days...
Neuromancer
Member
I don't think anyone is saying that.