You're treating Cage like a film director, when he's not. He works in a VG medium and introduced a VG experience that hasn't been matched.
A simulation of a girl's life over several years as she deals w/ an uncontrollable spiritual entity, and the player narrates how that relationship plays out.
The execution may not be to your liking - the QTE feel has caused a lot of butthurt recently - but you cannot in good conscience say that he's not pushing the limits of our conceptions of what VGs are as a medium.
Quality of the work has nothing to do with the auteur theory. While his writing qualities are highly debatable, he seems to be a pretty good director, because he is one of the few that actually gets shit done and Quantic is renewed for always releasing on time and on budget, which is the rare exception these days. It's why the studio exists since 16 years and has over 200 employees. If you think accomplishing this don't require any kind of qualities as a director you are delusional. Even if it is just the ability to sell your products.
Gamers frequently forget how fucking hard it is to publish a video game and that the shit we flame about, the developers are already cutting themselves over.
You're treating Cage like a film director, when he's not. He works in a VG medium and introduced a VG experience that hasn't been matched.
A simulation of a girl's life over several years as she deals w/ an uncontrollable spiritual entity, and the player narrates how that relationship plays out.
The execution may not be to your liking - the QTE feel has caused a lot of butthurt recently - but you cannot in good conscience say that he's not pushing the limits of our conceptions of what VGs are as a medium.
again, what does that have to do with anything i've said? i don't have a problem with his subject matter or controls. i never said that he's not trying something off the beaten path (though he's certainly not unique).
he wants to do interesting things, he just sucks at them. really really badly.
Whatever the story is for Titanfall or Destiny, I can guarantee you it's going to be DOG-STUPID. I will have pretty much SEEN IT BEFORE. And it will have very little to do with LIFE AS WE KNOW IT.
Which is ok, as Titanfall and Destiny will have actual gameplay.
If the conceit of your game is story above all else with minimal gameplay, that story had better SING.
Telltale's Walking Dead and The Last of Us crap all over anything Cage has ever done from a story standpoint, and they manage to have actual gameplay to boot.
Does he make money on them though? Publishers are crazy about signing his projects? People like his movies? Not too sure. All of this applies to Cage though. Even Phil Spencer recently tweeted he would immediately sign a project with him. After Beyond came out. We already know his next game will have 2 other writers on board, so he is making progress there as well.
It was the most cringe-inducing stuff I have seen in years (both in movies and games). It's all extremely shallow and forced ... just terrible, terrible writing..
It was among the best moments I played all year. It blows a lot of great moments away I saw in TWD or The Last of Us. Sorry you didn't like it. You don't have to understand it, just accept that you have a different opinion here (perhaps the minority one as even many people who didn't like the game liked this particular scene e.g. GiantBomb crew). It didn't came across as "moral preaching" in the slightest to me.
A game studio director is responsible for directing his team though? Or is this term used differently in movies? I would say his team and all the actors did a good job with his material (even if it's bad), which requires at least decent directing.
Which is ok, as Titanfall and Destiny will have actual gameplay.
If the conceit of your game is story above all else with minimal gameplay, that story had better SING.
Telltale's Walking Dead and The Last of Us crap all over anything Cage has ever done from a story standpoint, and they manage to have actual gameplay to boot.
TWD has less gameplay than any Cage game. Mostly horrible gamedesign. Good writing though. The Last of Us has both, which makes it indeed the stand out title this year.
Lets cut through the bullshit, shall we. If he thinks David Cage is a good writer then he should try watching a movie, because he must have missed all of them.
So this is where I should tell you what movies I have seen so that you can pass judgement on my acumen for having a worthy opinion based on how my tastes match up with yours? This is ridiculous.
Your inability to adhere to what it is people are actually saying is tiresome. He did not say 'David Cage is a good writer' he said 'I understand people's criticisms of the game. But even taken as a movie it's better than most of what's come out in theaters this year'.
The only one spewing bullshit is you. You're maligning what other people are saying because you just can't help but have an entirely gnashing teeth emotional reaction to someone liking something you don't.
So this is where I should tell you what movies I have seen so that you can pass judgement on my acumen for having a worthy opinion based on how my tastes match up with yours? This is ridiculous.
Secondly, your inability to adhere to what it is people are actually saying is tiresome. He did not say 'David Cage is a good writer' he said 'I understand people's criticisms of the game. But even taken as a movie it's better than most of what's come out in theaters this year'.
The only one spewing bullshit is you. You're maligning what other people are saying because you just can't help but have an entirely petty emotional reaction to someone liking something you don't.
I haven't senn many films this year, but I honestly can't see how his statement can be true.
The constant timeskipping is done in such an horrible way, the dialogues are so poorly written, that I can't imagine films have fallen low enough for Beyond to be among the best movies of the year.
Heck, Hangover 3 seems like a masterpeace of story telling and dialogues writing compared to Beyond.
Then again, if you take a "good movie" to only be a stunning visual piece, with good voisce acting, that's another story.
I know the writing in David Cage's games is not very good (especially the big moments) but in my opinion, his games are still pretty good overall, very enjoyable. I guess his games just resonate well with me, even if they are far from perfect. And the fact that he is one of the few developers (outside the indie scene) that is willing to make something "different" makes it easy for me to forgive some of his games' shortcomings. The same with Swery 65 and his excellent Deadly Premonition (a masterpiece IMO) another game where the good (story, characters, humour, music, etc) easily outweighs the bad (clunky controls)
That said, I think David Cage nails the small moments in his games (many of which are completely optional) Like all the small scenes that you can trigger around the house in the Imaginary Friend chapter, or all the "conversations" between Jodie and Aiden throughout the game. I love those details.
And BTW, I think the "invisible choice" system in Beyond is completely underappreciated. Where other games would just present you with a typical "choose this or that" scenario, Beyond lets you make choices in a much more natural way. I'm thinking for example of the
bar scene (which is in itself optional) where you can just go to the door, and avoid what would happen if you stay there any longer.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that "invisible choice" system was actually detrimental to the critical reception of the game, as most reviewers, conditioned by a whole generation of "in your face binary choices" never even realized those choices were possible.
Telltale's Walking Dead and The Last of Us crap all over anything Cage has ever done from a story standpoint, and they manage to have actual gameplay to boot.
why is Kenny suddenly such a dick? Fuck I had his back for so long... fuck that.
For the people who rejected Beyond after not enjoying Heavy Rain, why did you buy Walking Dead after playing Jurassic Park? You mentioned gameplay specifically. Sure, Last of Us was a shooter. Cool. Walking Dead played pretty much like Beyond.
Also, how would you respond if my criticisms of the game included "that guy who directed Walking Dead is a pretentious hack and a pompous prick, and I know this because YouTube?"
why is Kenny suddenly such a dick? Fuck I had his back for so long... fuck that.
For the people who rejected Beyond after not enjoying Heavy Rain, why did you buy Walking Dead after playing Jurassic Park? You mentioned gameplay specifically. Sure, Last of Us was a shooter. Cool. Walking Dead played pretty much like Beyond.
Also, how would you respond if my criticisms of the game included "that guy who directed Walking Dead is a pretentious hack and a pompous prick, and I know this because YouTube?"
And BTW, I think the "invisible choice" system in Beyond is completely underappreciated. Where other games would just present you with a typical "choose this or that" scenario, Beyond lets you make choices in a much more natural way. I'm thinking for example of the
bar scene (which is in itself optional) where you can just go to the door, and avoid what would happen if you stay there any longer.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that "invisible choice" system was actually detrimental to the critical reception of the game, as most reviewers, conditioned by a whole generation of "in your face binary choices" never even realized those choices were possible.
If you read my previous message you'll notice that this was part of the point I was attempting to put forward. The game can play out so vastly differently if and when certain decisions are made and none of them appear forced in any other way than playing towards one's own personality traits. Do you take revenge? Do you stubbornly stay and wait or leave? Do you steal or toil? In each situation there are varying degrees to which each choice can be pursued so it's not simply a bland binary decision
Speaking of cliches. You sure you like TWD that much? Because it's one big cliche. The black guy Lee who seems nice, but has actually murdered a white senator and every other white dude gets suspicious at him? Kenny, a redneck straight from the cliche box, who is constantly mad at you and acts like an asshole? The ultimate badass Molly aka Tomb Raider who saves everyone and parkours over buildings? The teenager whose only purpose in the story is to fuck everything up and act like a naive idiot all the time?
Yeah. On top of that the game contains every possible zombie trope you can think of and the writers shamelessly exploit them. TWD has much better writing than Beyond overall I agree, but in terms of cliches it isn't much better.
No, they're types, but they're not cliches, because they grow beyond their types. I don't know how Lee, a history professor who killed a guy who was sleeping with his wife qualifies as a type, just because he's black. wtf? And the only guy who's suspicious of him is the old guy with the heart condition. Kenny? One of the most well-developed characters in the game? A cliche? Excuse me?
How is a teenager who fucks up constantly a cliche? Because the only one that comes to mind is Screech from Saved by the Bell and I'm pretty sure that wasn't that character's inspiration...
Not just more novel, but due to the length also more complete, like a novel.
Not to mention written to be flexible for divergent player choices, but of course I was the one who, regrettably, said "setting that aside" and "taken as a movie" in the OP.
I am no more David Cage than I am Denis Dyack. I do, however, have a knack for coming out in support of people that the Groupthink here disdains.
Movies released this year that I saw:
Dark Skies
Evil Dead
Jurassic Park 3D Iron Man 3
Star Trek Into Darkness
Epic This is the End
Man of Steel World War z
Pacific Rim
Ender's Game Thor: the Dark World
The Hunger Games: Cacthing Fire
So, for the record, Beyond is not better written than 12 years a Slave or most of the movies you named. It is better written than most of the movies I named.
Agreed. Both games are among my top 10 on PS3 for the whole generation. Neither made me cry but they certainly made me feel something, made me care about the characters and had me glued to the screen until the end just to see how the story would end, which is something very few other games accomplishes. Can't really say which game is better, I liked Heavy Rain a lot since there were so many playable characters and a twist in the end. Beyond Two Souls was more emotional though and Ellen Page made the best performance yet in video games. Both are solid 9s for me.
lol at naming Iron Man 3, Thor, Pacific Rim, and World War Z. Sheesh. If there's anything those films did not have, it is good characterization, but that's another topic for another time.
lol at naming Iron Man 3, Thor, Pacific Rim, and World War Z. Sheesh. If there's anything those films did not have, it is good characterization, but that's another topic for another time.
Some that I can remember from the top of my head (spoilers obviously):
- In the Homeless chapter, you can go multiple ways about
earning money. You can play a song on a guitar, you can hack an ATM, you can "accept" a job from a guy (which ends horribly of course)
-
During the fire in the house there are two ways the scene can end. Either Jodie escapes the burning house but gets het head smashed in by some guys in a gang, or Jodie doesn't escape and needs to be rescued. She enters a coma.
-
You can fail to escape the military facility and not go to the bar, thus preventing Jodie from almost being raped. This has consequences for the Dinner chapter.
-
During the Escape, there are many ways to get away from the CIA agents. If you get caught on the motorbike for example, you'll lose your chance to play a ~10 minute scene in which you can wreck havoc with a helicopter and a truck
There must be more, as I've only played the game once and watched my boyfriend's playthrough and from that alone I noticed the above differences. After I played the game for the first time, I thought there weren't many choices but it was only after I saw my boyfriend play the game that I learned that there actually are a lot of choices.
However it is true that the choices don't have a lot of consequences in the endings. But once again, Beyond isn't about crafting your own story, it's a retelling of Jodie's life and you can only change the details (and decide how she continues her life in the ending, of course).
The more I think about it, the more I would have liked there to have been more stringent conditions on being able to choose what Jodie does after than simply 'This character lived'. Once you get to the end a lot of the options (aside from
Ryan whom they continuously put in front of you
) don't feel particularly earned? I'm struggling to explain what I mean exactly, but instead of seeming like logical paths, it feels like a Heavy Rain moment of having multiple decisions, something the game feels very much light on the whole way through, so to suddenly have all of these choices for having done not much more than meet these people seems out of place and jaring.
Does he make money on them though? Publishers are crazy about signing his projects? People like his movies? Not too sure. All of this applies to Cage though. Even Phil Spencer recently tweeted he would immediately sign a project with him. After Beyond came out. We already know his next game will have 2 other writers on board, so he is making progress there as well.
Hopefully this, along with the feedback on both the perceived and actual malleability of Beyond will allow them to have even more alternate scenario's for their next project. Despite the amount of hidden exposition and ways things like 'Dinner' could go, it still wasn't as much as Heavy Rain. I feel like if they could manage that while maintaining the quality of Beyond, their next project would be simply amazing.
Hopefully this, along with the feedback on both the perceived and actual malleability of Beyond will allow them to have even more alternate scenario's for their next project. Despite the amount of hidden exposition and ways things like 'Dinner' could go, it still wasn't as much as Heavy Rain. I feel like if they could manage that while maintaining the quality of Beyond, their next project would be simply amazing.
Cage already said that the two additional writers are pretty much required because the writing effort is going to be huge (implying it's way bigger than Beyond). Since he doesn't like overly long games (>15 hours) I can only assume this means a bigger world with more optional content or more alternative paths, endings or branching dialogue. I'm ok with either scenario.
The more I think about it, the more I would have liked there to have been more stringent conditions on being able to choose what Jodie does after than simply 'This character lived'. Once you get to the end a lot of the options (aside from
Ryan whom they continuously put in front of you
) don't feel particularly earned? I'm struggling to explain what I mean exactly, but instead of seeming like logical paths, it feels like a Heavy Rain moment of having multiple decisions, something the game feels very much light on the whole way through, so to suddenly have all of these choices for having done not much more than meet these people seems out of place and jaring..
The final choice when you choose life doesn't even belong into the game. It is either there because they ran out of time and didn't think it through or they knew they didn't let you spend enough time with those characters, so they let you choose so you don't feel screwed over by the game giving you an ending you don't like. Why can I even choose Ryan when I broke his heart in the last chapter? The game allows you to create a schizophrenic Jodie which is weird. You can literally say you love him during the Chinese mission, break his heart in the following chapter and then go back to him again during the epilogue. Why? Weird design. It shouldn't give you this option in that case. The game should rather use an algorithm and analyse how you interact with Stan, Ryan and Jay. Depending on that the game should be able to determine which character the player sympathized with the most and let Jodie choose the appropriate ending automatically. They even have the "Alone" ending available in case you didn't like anyone. It would heavily increase the re-playability and give people more to talk about. "So Jodie went to the homeless people right?" "No in my ending she was alone" "Why?" "I dunno, maybe because I wasn't nice to Stan?" etc. and you would have a nice discussion going on which choice affected what.
Missed opportunity that could have single-handedly improved some scores of the game.
EDIT: Here let me quickly improve Beyond in case you choose
Life:
Ryan has the highest ranking, because you directly tell him if you love him or not (definitive choice). Say no during the Chinese mission and he is locked out permanently. Say yes and you get the second choice (confirmation) during Black Sun (if you say no earlier this scene is skipped). Say no and he is locked out. Say yes and you get the Ryan ending in case he survives. If he dies, you get the ending that fits Jodie the second best.
Stan and his group are just below Ryan in the ranking. Each thing you do during Homeless has an invisible weight assigned to it. Good things have a positive and bad things a negative weight. Find out about Stan's wife? +2. Be honest to Stan? +1. Lie to Stan? -1. Steal from the ATM? -5. Earn money with the guitar? +5. Help each group member using Jodie's powers? +1. Someone dies in the fire? -10 etc. If the counter reached a certain threshold you get the Zoey ending (if you break up with Ryan or he dies).
In case the threshold is not reached the game moves onto the Navajo family. If you kiss Jay or save Paul the Navajo ending is selected. In case you kissed Jay give the player the choice as soon as Jodie arrives if she really should enter a relationship with Jay or just live on the farm as a friend. 2 slightly different endings depending on the choice (Jay in bed or not in bed). If you didn't kiss Jay but saved Paul choose "live on the farm as a friend" automatically.
If you didn't kiss Jay and Paul died and none of the other endings apply you get the Alone ending.
Easy to implement and uses systems, assets and choices that are already available. BOOM!
Telltale's Walking Dead and The Last of Us crap all over anything Cage has ever done from a story standpoint, and they manage to have actual gameplay to boot.
Respectfully, this is bullshit. TWD Season 1 had next to no gameplay.
In fact TWD's lack of gameplay was utterly painful. THERE is a game that skates by entirely on its superior writing. THERE is a game that's barely a game. By comparison, Heavy Rain was an open-ended wonderland. HR involved actual game design... and quite sophisticated -- for an adventure game anyway -- one at that. There was an actual detective puzzle (which spanned the length of the game) involved, for example.
TWD was a straight line to the point of absurdity. There was no sophistication or real consequence to the interactivity, where it was present at all. A couple of dialog outcomes would be different and some characters would stay or go at key points, but it was quite simplistic.
However, its writing was about 100x better than Heavy Rain's. So there's that.
(I haven't played Beyond, so I don't how it compares on that front. Perhaps it's like TWD.)
12 Years A Slave
Dallas Buyers Club
The Wolf of Wall Street
Fruitvale Station
Frozen
American Hustle
These are all movies that tell a story wonderfully, and in most of their cases a true story on top of that.
Is the OP really trying to tell me that Beyond: Two Souls eclipsed any of these movies as far as the art of storytelling is concerned?
Granted none of those movies would fall into the genre B:TS would, however they are movies indeed. So to make a blanket statement such as it is easily better than most movies released this year is just mind boggling to say the very least.
12 Years A Slave
Dallas Buyers Club
The Wolf of Wall Street
Fruitvale Station
Frozen
American Hustle
These are all movies that tell a story wonderfully, and in most of their cases a true story on top of that.
Is the OP really trying to tell me that Beyond: Two Souls eclipsed any of these movies as far as the art of storytelling is concerned?
Granted none of those movies would fall into the genre B:TS would, however they are movies indeed. So to make a blanket statement such as it is easily better than most movies released this year is just mind boggling to say the very least.
It's a niche type of game and I don't see that changing.
It would have been cool if more people had bought it just because I think it's unlike anything else out there, but so long as it (and similarly niche games) did well enough to justify more niche games then I consider that a success. Most don't.
