Actually you just showed how vague it really is.
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My crisis of faith with socially aware games criticism
- Thread starter Lowlander2
- Start date
Actually you just showed how vague it really is.
Many is basically just saying "plural." I'm not saying it's a majority like "most" would imply.
I don't get how this is even an issue unless your only goal is to avoid every bit of actual substance in my post.
Giolon
Member
It certainly seems then like this "small, vocal bunch" is a growing part of those with the biggest microphone - paid journalists and critics on some of the most prominent gaming sites, and I don't see many people on the social justice side calling them out for it. Those people are applauded and patted on the back, while any who oppose their call for doing away with certain things they don't like are painted as backwards, immature, or bigots - and then they get to publically trade high fives with their peers for showing those ignorants what's what. The OP calling some of those tactics out was refreshing to see, but unfortunately his goals are still the same.
Look what's happening to Shinta right here in this very thread - even some normally reasonable sounding pro social justice posters are trying to pick apart pluralistically vague words like "many" and trying to discredit his opinion while using the same type of words themselves - many, most, some people. It's getting bogged down into pedantry and making no point relevant to the arguments themselves.
I've seen what happens first hand when you use anything stronger than numerically vague words - at best you get called out for painting everyone with the same brush, at worst you get accused of "HIVEMIND"-ing the opposition and receive a timeout. It's a lose-lose situation.
I have seen some good discussion in this thread, especially from faceless, but honestly I'm scared of participating. I took the bait before, and maybe I already have by even commenting twice here, but it's hard to be entirely silent on an issue that I care about.
disastermouse
Banned
What would be a good feminist or LGBT depiction in a game, really?
If you depict a kick-ass woman warrior in a game, those depictions usually sexualize the lead along straight-male lines. There aren't average/fat women depicted in video games in any sort of positive light. Personally, as a fitness buff, I don't like the 'fat acceptance' movement. I see it as a triumph of mediocrity. However, depicting a schlumpy dude in a video game is a lot more acceptable than an average/chunky woman.
Getting beyond the lack of unflattering depictions of average body-type/attractiveness women in games (or TV, or non-indie film) - when women are 'asskickers' in games, they're given what are stereotypically male traits like physical aggression, a cold (or at least not emotionally warm) demeanor, and they're often depicted as 'damaged'. Not so damaged that they don't work out and diet religiously though.
I'm not sure what sort of remedy fits, though, as video games are overwhelmingly combat oriented.
As for LGBT depictions in games, I think it would require LGBT authors - at least at first - so as to avoid claims of stereotyping.
If you depict a kick-ass woman warrior in a game, those depictions usually sexualize the lead along straight-male lines. There aren't average/fat women depicted in video games in any sort of positive light. Personally, as a fitness buff, I don't like the 'fat acceptance' movement. I see it as a triumph of mediocrity. However, depicting a schlumpy dude in a video game is a lot more acceptable than an average/chunky woman.
Getting beyond the lack of unflattering depictions of average body-type/attractiveness women in games (or TV, or non-indie film) - when women are 'asskickers' in games, they're given what are stereotypically male traits like physical aggression, a cold (or at least not emotionally warm) demeanor, and they're often depicted as 'damaged'. Not so damaged that they don't work out and diet religiously though.
I'm not sure what sort of remedy fits, though, as video games are overwhelmingly combat oriented.
As for LGBT depictions in games, I think it would require LGBT authors - at least at first - so as to avoid claims of stereotyping.
Kotetsu534
Member
I think there has to be an acceptance in online fora discussions that most people do not have the logical erudition of Socrates or the linguistic precision of a senior lawyer. If participation is limited to those who do the conversation quickly becomes narrow, both in numbers and content.
In other words, when someone makes a large post putting forward multiple ideas or arguments, responding only to pick on the use of arguably inappropriate individual words is destructive to the discussion.
In other words, when someone makes a large post putting forward multiple ideas or arguments, responding only to pick on the use of arguably inappropriate individual words is destructive to the discussion.
I'm not sure if feminists are asking for quality or quantity.
But I'd imagine they'd just like to see more diversity out of women in games. Someone like Catniss from the Hunger Games is pretty cool, I think. She has realistic faults and she's not that strong, but she's wise and versatile enough to deal with certain situations. She also shows empathy and compassion towards others. A big no-no for a female character is to use her sexual appeal to lure or seduce other characters in anyway. And if the character get one-up'd or weakened by their male supporter all the time then they also seem to fail the feminist test.
But since writing in games isn't exactly great nor necessary, even the stupidest mary sues would be kind of interesting.
Samus and Lara are cool, but it's so easy for everyone to pick them apart because they are literally the only iconic women in games. Haha. If there were more iconic women, we could at least be a little less nit picky.
But I'd imagine they'd just like to see more diversity out of women in games. Someone like Catniss from the Hunger Games is pretty cool, I think. She has realistic faults and she's not that strong, but she's wise and versatile enough to deal with certain situations. She also shows empathy and compassion towards others. A big no-no for a female character is to use her sexual appeal to lure or seduce other characters in anyway. And if the character get one-up'd or weakened by their male supporter all the time then they also seem to fail the feminist test.
But since writing in games isn't exactly great nor necessary, even the stupidest mary sues would be kind of interesting.
Samus and Lara are cool, but it's so easy for everyone to pick them apart because they are literally the only iconic women in games. Haha. If there were more iconic women, we could at least be a little less nit picky.There's a difference in context that you're missing. Saying that many people want cenorship is a damning accusation that demands some evidence. Saying that many people don't want censorship, isn't
Also, faceless did not make a sweeping generalization. He cited most of the feminists he conversed with, which is specifically limited to his personal experience
But, for the sake of this thread lets clear up the main point of confusion. We're claiming that there are "many" people who's motive is to censor these games. Can you just name these people? Specifically, you said it was "paid journalists" that were calling for the forceful suppression of offending material. Let's start listing them and get it out of the way
RockTurtle
Member
the OP himself?
I'm not sure if feminists are asking for quality or quantity.
But I'd imagine they'd just like to see more diversity out of women in games. Someone like Catniss from the Hunger Games is pretty cool, I think. She has realistic faults and she's not that strong, but she's wise and versatile enough to deal with certain situations. She also shows empathy and compassion towards others. A big no-no for a female character is to use her sexual appeal to lure or seduce other characters in anyway. And if the character get one-up'd or weakened by their male supporter all the time then they also seem to fail the feminist test.
But since writing in games isn't exactly great nor necessary, even the stupidest mary sues would be kind of interesting.
asking for more minorities is a matter of quantity. saying we need less cleavage is a concept of asking for more "quality and mature". As for diversity, i don't know what you mean by that. If you want to say you want more variety out of women in games otuside of damnsel in distress, or tough-as-nails kickass woman. there are. But there's the risk that whenever you put women in a bad light, it can also be construed as insulting or demeaning. you are then stuck in a "damned if you and damned if you don't" situation. And you can take more liberties with men.
everyone laughs at a overweight fat guy who stumbles a lot in media, but you can't do the same to a woman. SO if it seems men are more varied, it's just the evolution of tropes in entertainment media. A recent example, In dead rising 3 there was a female bodybuilder who was a narcissist psychopath. a character that wouldn't have been controversial if it was a male, but because it was a women put in a negative light there was accusation of transphobia. you can't ask for variety and then expect only to have good or desirable qualities. you can't ask for equality and expect only special treatment. further back, the whole black zombies controversy in Resident evil .(gatdayum capcom)
I once asked that maybe some of the whole sexuality issue would aleviate by asking what women find sexually appealing, and i got met with like 10 gafers ridiculing me that we shouldn't have sexy period! my topic even got deleted! (and we had gotten a few good responses like female posters finding nathan drake the type of sexy they want to see).
so if we can get developers (of which the majority are male, but the demographic is quickly changing) to ask women what they find appealing WITHOUT it meaning you deny other genders of what they find appealing, maybe we can go a long way.
as for your examples of lara croft and samus, you have them as iconic while representing the tough-gal trope. What about other iconic videogame women like CHUN LI from street fighter? or even princess peach (yes i know the while damnsel in distress trope). Cortana from Halo? Maybe what you want is more of a specific trope of women?
Why would anyone want to turn this into a witch hunt? The only point I made, is that when someone posts criticism of something in this topic, they should try and post themselves what the desired outcome of that change they want would be. If Dragon's Crown deeply offends you, what is the actual outcome you want to see come from your criticism of it? It's a very simple question.
In forum conversation, if someone directly asks someone this question and they repeatedly refuse to answer, then it's a good idea to be a little skeptical about what their true goals are.
That's all that is necessary. It's an absurdly simple point. And like I predicted, it's one that is going to be fought as much as possible.
When people go on and on about how things should change, all we are asking is that they actually tell us what they want to change it to. It's just remarkable that this simple bit of common sense is seen as controversial to anyone.
Spanx McFranks
Banned
Interesting read. There is some things said in this article that are similar to how I have been feeling lately. I understand the need for representation and equality and look forward to the amazing work that will come from it, but I get so disappointed with the way people are so aggressive about the issues. People call for conversations about the topics, yet it seems like when someone has a different opinion they are just berated for having the differing opinion. Maybe I am wrong, but that doesn't seem too much like a conversation to me. I find this so upsetting that it is actually driving me away from the hobby and community I have loved and enjoyed for so long.
I felt that if you focus all your source of change on "changing people's views via conversation" you become very authoritarian when it doesn't go well. There is no room for dissent with this manner of change. Worse, we hardly ever are introspective about this methodology. We just focus on making sure the conversation goes much better much more often.
castlemadeofsand
Banned
I'm not sure if feminists are asking for quality or quantity.
But I'd imagine they'd just like to see more diversity out of women in games. Someone like Catniss from the Hunger Games is pretty cool, I think. She has realistic faults and she's not that strong, but she's wise and versatile enough to deal with certain situations. She also shows empathy and compassion towards others. A big no-no for a female character is to use her sexual appeal to lure or seduce other characters in anyway. And if the character get one-up'd or weakened by their male supporter all the time then they also seem to fail the feminist test.
But since writing in games isn't exactly great nor necessary, even the stupidest mary sues would be kind of interesting.
We got some decent playable females this year though. Ellie is pretty badass from the last of us, in fact my favorite part of the game was the winter section. Elizabeth while not playable was a decent character in bioshock infinite. She wasn't helpless either and contributed quite a lot. There was tomb raider also (note i didn't play it). So i'd say thats some decent representation in some of the biggest games this year
Surprise, feminists are divided on the character of Catniss:
http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/04/the_hunger_games_is_sexist_fai.html
Which furthers the point that generalizations are dumb!
Actually, you made some points other than that, which is where the issue came up. Specifically, the claim that "many" feminists wanted games like Dragon's Crown to be censored. Which created this confusion about vague generalizations and implications about how many it refers to. Which is why I ask that you just identify some of these feminists so the matter can be put to rest. So that we know this plurality exists. Just two should be fine. Thanks!
Gun Animal
Member
Yo, I don't care one way or the other about making games more progressive but there is one thing I'd like to say in response to the OP's article:
The reason negative press helped Dragon's Crown was because it was already a niche title and negative press helps niche titles almost as much as positive press. The reason negative press hurt God of War: Ascension is because it was an "AAA" game intended for a mass audience. It already had most of the exposure it needed from advertisements and press conferences, so negative press could only have a negative effect. It has nothing to do with what was being criticized, this would apply to anything. So, in the future: Criticize AAA games that you have issues with, but ignore niche games you have issues with completely unless you don't mind giving them more exposure anyways.
Also, could someone fill me in on why Penny Arcade has such a bad reputation among progressives now? Was it just the dickwolves thing?
The reason negative press helped Dragon's Crown was because it was already a niche title and negative press helps niche titles almost as much as positive press. The reason negative press hurt God of War: Ascension is because it was an "AAA" game intended for a mass audience. It already had most of the exposure it needed from advertisements and press conferences, so negative press could only have a negative effect. It has nothing to do with what was being criticized, this would apply to anything. So, in the future: Criticize AAA games that you have issues with, but ignore niche games you have issues with completely unless you don't mind giving them more exposure anyways.
Also, could someone fill me in on why Penny Arcade has such a bad reputation among progressives now? Was it just the dickwolves thing?
I think one guy also said men have penises and woman have vaginas. Some progressives got upset so to support the Trans community.
Yeah, but in reality all you're trying to do is set a verbal trap instead of actually listen to what we're saying.
If you read what I've said, I said the OP is remarkable in that it's possibly the only time that someone actually typed it out word for word so that no matter what, his intentions can't be denied. If you read what I said, I stated that even when directly asked, most people specifically avoid answering this question at all costs. If someone has to actually put a goal along with their criticism, a potential solution to their problem, then they are actually open to substantial counterpoints and intelligent discussion. For the record, I stated what my goal and proposed solution was at the bottom of this post. It's not hard to do.
Making a list for you of two people is pointless, and you don't even care to read it. You're trying to bait people into making a mistake so you can discount everything we've said and just focus on demanding a never-ending stream of proof. I mean just listen to yourself Shosai, the OP is one, and are you really arguing that there isn't a single other feminist in the entire world that agrees with him? It's absurd. Your list of two accomplishes nothing that common sense doesn't already do. And for what? Because I dared to use a plural qualifier, something that most of the people trying to pick apart my post are also doing? This is pretty silly.
Instead of me making a list, I'd rather let people speak for themselves. When someone advocates change, just tell us what the change looks like. Then we can make a list if you want based on people telling us how they feel, and what they want to see happen. Personally, I don't want a list anyway. Seems like a witch hunt. I just want people to argue their position honestly and openly.
If people literally refuse to answer the question, despite it being pretty basic and harmless, then it's probably a good idea to be skeptical of their motives.
castlemadeofsand
Banned
LOL
I don't think you're taking me seriously.
http://makemeasammich.org/2013/06/07/penny-arcades-gabe-is-willfully-ignorant-again/
Right, no one's really taking issue with that part. It's the other part of your post that we're referring to:
The problem was that it was vauge, a generalization of a group the rest of us haven't encountered
Er, what? Why wouldn't I read what you post? That's the reason I'm asking, to get information. And if you don't post it, then it won't clear up a larger thread of confusion, or to satisfy my own personal interest. I'm assuming good faith, in that you are referring to people that you've encountered. It doesn't even have to be a list, just a link or a pair of names would suffice.
Who are these people?
castlemadeofsand
Banned
the way you said it sounded funny, I'm not familiar with the scenario. Upon reading it though it seems he's stating quite a bit "gender has to do with what genitalia you have". Technically speaking i don't find fault with that reasoning speaking forma solely physiological level. I believe he made that qualifier in there too.
yeah don't really see the issue there. at least from his tweets i don't get the impression he was attacking anyone. it does;t show the tweets he's responding to but nothing he says is really offensive. could you point out to me what you find so offensive?
he even states "I am happy to treat/refer to people however they like regardless of their genitals.
Fri, Jun 07 2013 19:13:31"
what game is he referring to by the way?
edit: thats alright, i don't need to discuss it further. also sorry if i offended with the "LOL", i found it funny because there was no context surrounding what you wrote
To quickly sweep this topic under the rug, the guy is not agreeing with the concept of gender identity. It's a hotly debated topic in the trans community that usually has dissent shot down as 'ignorant hate speech' anyway and his comment is an element of that. Twitter really isn't the place where you have space to explain yourself as well and I really doubt the guy could dissent at the same intellectual level as those who were for the concept.
Edit: I don't want to make this a large part of the discussion here. Especially since I have a unique position on the issue. I'd be happier to explain more via PM if you'd like.
I think women are already mostly in a negative light? They're most likely to be annoying or need your help or use their sexuality to get you to do stuff. That seems pretty negative. If you add diversity then tropes won't be a thing. That's the whole point. Put slutty girls, educated girls, short girls, fat girls, independent girls, nice girls, mean girls, strong, puny etc etc. If you have diversity then people will stop crying about every little problem they find. They'll be able to stand back and realize there is a balance of good and bad traits that make women into something that isn't a stereotype.
Capcom is not good with writing. So I honestly excuse there "ignorance" when it comes to gay and black people. Like honestly, it's like embarrassingly yelling at your grandpa for being racist or something, They honestly can't help it, but I love em' anyways.
I'm talking about protagonists. They're iconic female protagonists. Samus and Lara...Are they really tough girls in their newest games? Lara starts off inexperienced and Samus can't stop talking about the baby. Say what you will, but they show plenty of weakness and faults to make them less than tough (which might've made some fans angry.)
I don't know much about Cortana and honestly Peach doesn't have much to say at all. Rosalina however is a great character. She's got a tender backstory and she's got a heart that yearns for exploration and a sense of belonging. Plus she births galaxies and stuff. Can't beat that really.
I answered you as thoroughly as I'm going to. I'm not going to start the battle of digging up links to proof that never seems to satisfy people, digging through months old threads, searching for posts and articles for people who won't ever agree with me.
No one is demanding that faceless link to that majority of feminists he's talked to, or that Steve link to the "many more" feminists specifically stating that they don't want to see Dragon's Crown fail, or the "some" people he said want it to fail. It's not really productive for the conversation, and not really a realistic demand to ask someone just posting on a forum - particularly when I have said twice now that people specifically go out of their way to avoid the question and never type it out in simple plain English, word for word like the OP.
You'll have to take my point that there are at least two feminists in existence who feel that way as part of common sense for the sake of this debate, considering one is already in the OP. As I said, let's just let people speak for themselves. If people take my advice, you can make your own list pretty easily then.
Even in the OP, he is constantly referring to "We." "We" got rid of Pinsoff and the God of War trophy, but failed to ruin Dragon's Crown. I'm guessing he knows at least one other person on the planet who agrees with him on that. But good luck trying to ask him who the "we" is, despite him using the word 7 times. He's now denying that even he really thinks that, despite already typing it out.
RockTurtle
Member
gotcha. you want more iconic female main characters, but i think that just depends on any main character being iconic in the first place. and that can be based on luck. plenty of male main characters that were belated back to anonymity. ALAS i understand where you are coming from.
As for Lara and Samus. well Lara was a series reboot, with the idea that we see her in the beginning when she was a novice right before she becomes the globe trotting bad ass she is. however, i think squeenix took too much liberty into making it too realistic with the killing and death sequences and the whole body language. Again its more of an exercise in trying to mirror hollywood. Samus....was just a bad characterization period.
Rosalina is a great character. But as you can see, she doesn't have to be a main character to be iconic or be a great character.
DiscoJer
Member
The thing is, it's like everyone overlooks a huge segment of the gaming market whose demographics are mostly women, and whose characters are mostly women.
Casual gaming. It's like it doesn't exist in the gaming media or here. But it's a huge slice of the gaming industry.
For instance in almost every Hidden Object game, you play a woman who must find/rescue her husband/child/father. Or are a Scully like FBI agent or detective. There are 100s of these games.
http://www.bigfishgames.com/download-games/genres/15/hidden-object.html
And then time management games, where again, the main character is almost always a woman. Jane's Hotel. Dinner Dash. Supermarket Mania. Hotel Mogul, almost all have a woman running a successful business...
...Both Ellie and Elizabeth are damsel'd and they're both
daughters you're suppose to protect.
Being a damsel is a pretty typical role, but I like to think they're good characters regardless of how often they are placed into powerless roles.
I don't care what feminists say about Catniss or whatever heroines they come across. There won't be a perfect "feminist character" because then there would probably be no plot or problems. Haha.
Do feminists like...Hermione?
castlemadeofsand
Banned
Samus wasn't tough but I don't think there was anything wrong in her portrayal (as lame as it was lol). Sakamoto stated his motivations there, she felt motherly bondage for the metroid, it saved her life and what not. I know its corny, but whatever. As for the whole afraid of ridley thing, sure it does't seem to fit, but then again none of the other games showed her feelings throughout. He wasted to make her more human and not a hard-ass. I can see why it irks people, i thought it was stupid myself. but i don't see anything sexist in it. She does go to kick the metroid queens ass at the end too, its not like he made her fail at every boss and have the "remember me" guy keep stepping in lol. Adam just happened to be a guy, he's her commander though and i think people read too much into it
yes, and ellie is a child, but she shows major balls in the game and saves joels ass
edit: and you can be sure i don't know what feminists like...lol
I think it's best to not generalize all Feminists, since there are wildly different ideological groups within Feminism.
Everyone has different ideas on what is best for women. Some you have to tell to stop being stupid, like any group. Just enjoy what you enjoy.
It would behoove people generally to consider the intersectionality of their arguments before making dangerous generalizations as well.
U_U
I know. I'm actually completely unaware of most casual games and tend to steer clear because I'm in with the crowd that stigmatizes the mobile and casual market. (It's the Wii's fault)
When I was studying "Schell's Game Design Lenses" there was a chapter about men and women. I'm sure the research is real. But I can't help but throw up a little in my mouth when I read about what guys think girls want from their games. (Girls don't like exploring, girls don't enjoy challenge or competition...WHAT. NOOOOOOOOOOO!)
One thing is for sure though: girls like cheap or free games. And I think they probably dominate that market. They also enjoy social experiences and things that relate directly to the real world (home, fashion, farming, work) as oppose to non everyday activities (shooting, killing, racing, fantasy) Girls will rarely spend a bunch of money for an expensive console with expensive titles. Thus, console gaming is completely segregated from women and their casual mobile games.
I enjoy games for social reasons as well. Local multiplayer is super important and even when I'm playing a single player game I prefer to play in the company of someone I love.
I thought the point was to allow women to have more freedoms.
Not be "perfect" or "ideal."
Thanks...I needed that. It kind of sucks that we never learn much about this in school.
Fixing issues that are unrelated to being a woman but affect women happened. Also fighting for positive liberty in different ways. Some more useful than others.
To quote an often used line by anti-feminists "you can't please feminists". Not because they are all stubborn, however, but because they all have different views for how to affect things and what needs to be changed and what needs to stay.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Reading the first four pages in this thread and to people discussing Dragon's Crown... I just want to say that in Dragon's Crown, you can actually pinch (Vita) the screen during various questionable depictions of female characters in compromising situations and suggestive poses and they will make suggestive noises.
Was that "artful" or "pandering"?
The fact that Vanillaware included such 'feature' to me gave merit to people claiming that DC is a game where women characters were needlessly sexualized.
Was that "artful" or "pandering"?
The fact that Vanillaware included such 'feature' to me gave merit to people claiming that DC is a game where women characters were needlessly sexualized.
RockTurtle
Member
U_U
I know. I'm actually completely unaware of most casual games and tend to steer clear because I'm in with the crowd that stigmatizes the mobile and casual market. (It's the Wii's fault)
When I was studying "Schell's Game Design Lenses" there was a chapter about men and women. I'm sure the research is real. But I can't help but throw up a little in my mouth when I read about what guys think girls want from their games. (Girls don't like exploring, girls don't enjoy challenge or competition...WHAT. NOOOOOOOOOOO!)
One thing is for sure though: girls like cheap or free games. And I think they probably dominate that market. They also enjoy social experiences and things that relate directly to the real world (home, fashion, farming, work) as oppose to non everyday activities (shooting, killing, racing, fantasy) Girls will rarely spend a bunch of money for an expensive console with expensive titles. Thus, console gaming is completely segregated from women and their casual mobile games.
I enjoy games for social reasons as well. Local multiplayer is super important and even when I'm playing a single player game I prefer to play in the company of someone I love.
i want to mention again what i posted before. you, zeldablue, post in an exclusive gaming forum (what i mean is that gaf isnt easy to join up). you and everyone posting here is a niche (a gamer) within a niche (plays more than just AAA games) within a niche (sign up for gaming forums to discuss a hobby).
so your interests (and i will make the assumption everyone who posts in gaf) is already unique in the sense that your tastes are more... refined or honed in. you play a variety of games. you willingly experience more complex games because YOU yourself find it enjoyable.
so when you say things that can be construed as "girls will like what i like to play, because i play them" it's coming from the point of view of a HARDCORE GAMER. and that necessarily doesn't mean that you are speaking as a definitive representation of your gender (OR EVEN ME FOR THAT MATTER, OR ANYONE ON GAF).
so when YOU see books that say girls don't like exploration, maybe it's a broad generalization based on broad behavior. Again look at the casual market. why is it dominated by women? who are FPS dominated by men? different genders can and do enjoy different things on broad terms. but there are always exceptions to the rule.
so when i see people say we need more female gamer representation, MAYBE the issue is not for women to just tell male game designers to appeal to them, but to tell other women to broaden their tastes?
when i used to sub computer classes i always allowed the last 15 minutes to be play time on the computers. the Boys would usually hope on halo/cod and play together. the girls? they would spend all day running over pedestrians in GTA. they never joined the boys in Halo/CoD except for one or two. why did girls prefer GTA over CoD?
wasnt there a shirtless barbarian you could also "pinch"?
You're never going to please any generalized group of people. You can't please conservatives or liberals or unions, because they are all overly generalized and cover far too broad a range of classes, races, sexes and cultures.
Yep, which is my point generally. Sorry if I sounded like I was giving some special exception to Feminism.
Giolon
Member
I'd love to see more female protagonists of various stripes. My position on this topic has long been bring in more voices and perspectives to create more diverse content, but don't demonize or try to silence those who aren't making the content that you want to see. I'm also not convinced that the social justice warriors will be satisfied if there's variety as long as there remains a single not-perfectly-shining-role-model portrayal of anyone they consider to be a minority in any piece of media.
On the topic of Lara, I personally hate what they did to her in the latest reboot, because to me that's not Lara - not the appearance and not the personality. The Legend-Anniversary-Underworld incarnation of Lara was my favorite - basically a female James Bond. Tons of gadgets, smooth dialogue for any occasion, a supporting team, an appearance still unrealistic enough to remind you that we're looking at a fake character, and still someone who's had to live with plenty of failure in her life. I don't want the college girl next door version of Lara. I wouldn't want it of James Bond either.
As for Samus in Other M, I think there's a lot of reading into things that aren't there and assumptions made about the authors intent, when said intent had actually been explained in interviews. I do think the dialogue, acting, and storytelling devices are pretty horrible though. Samus had been given next to no characterization for nearly 20 years and people imbued her with traits they defined. When that clashed with the newly "official" version, combined with the poor execution, all hell broke loose. I don't really think Samus was a good character, because she had no character.
Some of my favorite characters in other mediums are Motoko Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex and Balsa the Spear-wielder in Moribito: Guardian of the Spirit. If we could get more characters like those two in video games, I think it'd be a nice start.
You can poke ALL of the NPC characters - male, female, and monstrous alike. And if you don't think that Roland's grunting and quivering isn't at all sexual, I really don't know what to tell you. Furthermore, poking at Morgiana has her threaten to take your hands off, and Tiki admonishes you if you poke at the nymph. Most of the other NPC pokes result in additional details about them or their situation.
And if it were just pandering, so what? It's optional incidental content that has absolutely zero bearing on the outcome or success of your character and is not required to be participated in to progress through the game. It's entirely your option to poke any NPC, and there's no reward for doing it.
Hey now, you can tap every character in a dialogue sequence and get a reaction. Let's not take Easter Eggs out of context and make it sound like a H-Game.
Warm Machine
Member
I'm always wary about doing the girl with the gun and the confident attitude character because I'm concerned about it being compared to Vasquez or Ripley. There is a very distinct trope associated with that where a Rambo style mercenary is free game due to how generic and free the visual of that idea is.
Murder. She Wrote
Member
It has problems (including inconsistencies) but ...
This is the cutest and most informative post in this thread!
You can molest characters in Dragon's Crown, and even if it's not exceptional to women, molesting people in general is not cool (and giving you bonuses and encouragement to do it only makes it that much worse). The game's sexist and that's fine, but it's weird when people state that very sexist things aren't sexist for some reason.
You are not a terrible person if you play a terrible thing, you are a terrible person if you don't realize that what's occurring is terrible though. Worse if you're willing to defend those things...
Metroid Other M is sexist because of its generally creepy treatment of the main character, and the exceptional amount of abuse she takes for no reason. Which actually is kind of the same problem with Tomb Raider.
What do you call Feminists that are like this? http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=741841&highlight=grass+huts
Didn't this thread get created because someone thought Tomb Raider 2013 had such an empowering portrayal of a woman that this game was important for women? Aren't you kinda applying a subjective view onto some of this stuff here?
(ignoring the rest of your post for now as I'm going to try to find youtube footage of this molestation minigame)
Didn't this thread get created because someone thought Tomb Raider 2013 had such an empowering portrayal of a woman that this game was important for women? Aren't you kinda applying a subjective view onto some of this stuff here?
castlemadeofsand
Banned
Those aren't real reasons. Come on now...
You are correct. Most people don't want a conversation, they want their opinion validated.
Best bet is to realize most of whatever community you are part of has members that are committed partisans and will burn anyone the stake that they think is a heretic.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Can't we just jump on blocks, shoot aliens, rescue princesses, catch bombs, and get powerups?
Gaming is so complicated these days :/
Gaming is so complicated these days :/
RockTurtle
Member
if they don't realize something is wrong, isn't it better to try educate or persuade?
also i think the other guy said there's no bonus or reward for the "molestation" just a bit of equal pandering. so if you can pinch both women and men, what makes the pinching sexist?
and i think the idea that pinching/molestation (as you say) is not cool is kinda ...underwhelming in a game where you cleave monsters in half. so again, sexuality becomes a crucifix that shouldn't be present at all.