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Analysis 12.15 - 10.28= 1.87 Teraflops difference between the XSX and PS5 (52 CU's vs. 36 CU's)

Vindicator

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How about you can hook up your PS4 to add the missing TFs, or maybe an expansion card consisting of a single PS4 APU so you can get to 12 TFlops?

Gonna get PS5 anyway (Demon's Souls Remake should look insane in case its happening), also got Gamepass on PC, just enjoy the games folks.
 

Solid_Rain

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12tf Vs 10tf

Both are theoretical maximums, and nothing is ever 100% efficient.

I think it's power Vs speed.

(Bad analogy) if it's a 100 meter race:
+ PS5 starts behind XsX but is faster
+ SxS starts *15 meters ahead of PS5 but is slower.

* A random value.

I have no idea what the end result will be, if I were to guess:
+ 3rd party devs will have an easier time with XsX (achieving more without as much effort?)

And another guess, game performance could depend on how a game a built ie the game engine.
 
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Stefan.North

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While Xbox fb can be quite irritating by strangling people to death, and Nintendo's by constant excuses and negation of N's faults... Sony fanboys really are most tragic ones. It's hard to find such hypocrites elsewhere.
 
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DonJorginho

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Power and price are the two biggest factors for me, I am working on upgrading my music studio so if the PS5 was £400 instead of £500-550 due to the loss of a few TFLOPS I could live with that and buy it, as that extra £100 or so could mean a much better quality mic or more equipment I want.

If the console was £500 I would still buy it, just would have to put other hobbies on hold. My main con about the PS5 is the SSD space, 825 GB is measly for this upcoming gen, and the fact that you cannot buy a SSD of the same performance on the market right now baffles me, as even when they release, they will be very expensive.

Say what you want about Proprietary Storage Solutions, but if Microsoft price their Expansion Cards right, they will be making more strides than Sony both for consumers and gaming enthusiasts with the sheer power they are packing.
 

Connxtion

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You have 52 CUs, so no. 52 CUs is a given.

But pixel fill rate is connected to clock I think.

So Sony has a slight edge in this area it seems , like PRO vs X, but in use we hardly see this back in games.
The site uses Texture mapping units + Rasterisation Operations + clock speed.

i didn’t think CUs (Compute units) were the same as TMUs.
(I rechecked after you said 128 was high for ROPs)

google was of no use trying to work that out.
 
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hyperbertha

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It's food for thought.

When you do the math, the CUs in the XSX is less efficient and more excessive.

It will definitely drive up the cost of the product and end up becoming another Xbox One X situation where the market shuns it as too expensive despite it being the superior console, technically speaking.
Oh so now its more about cost and sales and less about power? 52 CUs aren't excessive its about the right range to provide a true generational leap. Personally being a PS user, I hope Sony's solution is going to give a similar experience to Xsex for third party games but you fanboys are hilarious. And what would you do if MS actually manages to compete with Sony on price? How will you spin it then?
 

YoshiMax

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Sony/Cerny has always emphasized balance in a console, so maybe they realized the ZEN 2 cores could in many instances be with idle threads so they decided on dynamically providing the extra voltage to the GPU thus keeping things in balance and avoiding any CPU-GPU related bottlenecks.
That balance that allows it to run like an F15 at takeoff?
 
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PocoJoe

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Power and price are the two biggest factors for me, I am working on upgrading my music studio so if the PS5 was £400 instead of £500-550 due to the loss of a few TFLOPS I could live with that and buy it, as that extra £100 or so could mean a much better quality mic or more equipment I want.

If the console was £500 I would still buy it, just would have to put other hobbies on hold. My main con about the PS5 is the SSD space, 825 GB is measly for this upcoming gen, and the fact that you cannot buy a SSD of the same performance on the market right now baffles me, as even when they release, they will be very expensive.

Say what you want about Proprietary Storage Solutions, but if Microsoft price their Expansion Cards right, they will be making more strides than Sony both for consumers and gaming enthusiasts with the sheer power they are packing.
Cerny said they analyzed lot of gaming data, like how many games people play on weekends/have installed and so on. Im sure they have all the data they need.

Isn't the average amount of games bought per console per gen be like really low number, something like 4-6 games?

So, while gaming hobbyists like me whom have 30+ games installed and +300 games on collection cant obviously fit them all into the system, "average joe" can fit his 2-4 games in it.

1.6Tb would of course have been nice, but if it would add 50-100€ to the price, then I get it.

I rather get the console for less money and then buy bigger SSD after 6-12months and hopefully they are cheaper then

To be honest, while I have so many installed games, 80% of those I havent touched in years, they are just waiting for the right moment.

So it isnt that much of a hassle to just download the games when needed, unless gamer lives in 3rd world country with data caps of course
 
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ZywyPL

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Kids are seriously downplaying those 10TFlops, bare in mind X1X with it's 6TF is already as strong, if not stronger, than what most people have in their PCs with GF1050-1060/RX460-570, let alone the PS5. And with how effective RDNA is we are talking about equivalent of 3-4x more capable GPU than PS4 Pro, or over twice of the mentioned X1X.

Pure TFlops aren't the issue, it's everything that surrounds it - 36CU isn't much, but high clocks can make up for it, and as Cerny said, all the other components run faster as a result as well, so at the end of the day everything is OK. But that being said - XBX will simply have more of those additional components, like ROPs, TMUs etc., (that still run at not so shabby 1.8GHz), and the biggest game changer - number of RT engines assigned to each CU. And Cerny basically already suggested that RT performance will be struggling/underwhelming, so as a result, XBX will be able to offload lightning, shadow or reflection calculations onto those RT engines (with theoretical 13TF-worth accuracy/details), whereas PS5 will have to use some of those 10TF for those tasks. Plus all the additional features XBX has like VRS, DirectML etc. that will offload CU calculations even further, so on paper there's 2-3TF difference already, but in practice the difference might be actually even bigger.

The worst PS5 design decision is the shared TDP between CPU and GPU, so they will never be able to run at their max clock, and what's worse - Cerny said the solution doesn't take the generated heat into consideration at all, so yet another jet engine is about to be expected.
 
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GymWolf

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So the xsx is a whole ps4 more powerful than the ps5!

Wow!

The ps4 has some unbelievably good looking games that run at 1080p 60fps so add that on and that has to be a noticeable difference
like what? gt and? even the battlefield games are not exactly rock solid in term of framerate.
is it doom eternal at locked rock solid 60 frames on console? (and that game is hardly unbelievably good looking tbh)
 

DonJorginho

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Cerny said they analyzed lot of gaming data, like how many games people play on weekends/have installed and so on. Im sure they have all the data they need.

Isn't the average amount of games bought per console per gen be like really low number, something like 4-6 games?

So, while gaming hobbyists like me whom have 30+ games installed and +300 games on collection cant obviously fit them all into the system, "average joe" can fit his 2-4 games in it.

1.6Tb would of course have been nice, but if it would add 50-100€ to the price, then I get it.

I rather get the console for less money and then buy bigger SSD after 6-12months and hopefully they are cheaper then

To be honest, while I have so many installed games, 80% of those I havent touched in years, they are just waiting for the right moment.

So it isnt that much of a hassle to just download the games when needed, unless gamer lives in 3rd world country with data caps of course
I agree with all of that, I just hope Sony make two models, one that is slightly more with a 1.5 TB SSD built in or something, as it isn't clear if this is just a 825 GB Drive, or if it is a 1TB Drive that only has 825GB available for games.
 

hyperbertha

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What do you mean by crushing defeat ? Like PS4 selling numbers VS XBox One X selling numbers ? Because TF means nothing in terms of winning a generation, mostly if these 2 extra TF and the rest cost 100$ more.
Ultimately, sales don't matter to players. Lets be honest, both consoles are going to do well. From a player persperctive, its highly likely PS players are going to get a weaker experience than XSeX players and that's what should matter to you if are even remotely rational.
 
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Hado

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I cannot believe it either! Yet it won't be enough. Xbox wins for another year
 

Caio

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Ultimately, sales don't matter to players. Lets be honest, both consoles are going to do well. From a player persperctive, its highly likely PS players are going to get a weaker experience than XSeX players and that's what should matter to you if are even remotely rational.
Exclusive games are very important too, and if XSX cost $100 more, most gamers will not give a sh..t about 2 extra teraflop. If your logic were true, more people would buy more XBox One X since 2017 than PS4 Pro, but this is not the case. A lot of people are happy with PS4 PRO even though X offer better performance; weaker game experience, naaah, if I prefer the Sony exclusives, Playstation offer the stronger game experience, and viceversa.

I will buy both on day one, but this is just me. I do care a lot about better performance, but many other do not care about a 20% difference in TF.
 
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Kokoloko85

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Xbox 1 x has more Cu’s then PS5 from 2 years ago, it doesnt mean much.
PS5 has faster CUs than Xbox Series X 52 CUs...
 

hyperbertha

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Exclusive games are very important too, and if XSX cost $100 more, most gamers will not give a sh..t about 2 extra teraflop. If your logic were true, more people would buy more XBox One X since 2017 than PS4 Pro, but this is not the case. A lot of people are happy with PS4 PRO even though X offer better performance; weaker game experience, naaah, if I prefer the Sony exclusives, Playstation offer the stronger game experience, and viceversa.

I will buy both on day one, but this is just me. I do care a lot about better performance, but many other do not care about a 20% difference in TF.
I highly highly doubt MS is going to be stupid enough to come out with a console that costs 100$ extra. And Sony had the exclusive advantage last gen because MS was too stupid to care about the games. But its different this time.
 

FranXico

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He literally did not say that at all. Did any of you spouting this actually watch the video? He said for that worst case game that pushes PS5 to the limits, it would be possibly for the PS5 to drop clock speed. A 10% drop in power would only result in about a 2% drop in clock speed which still puts the clock speed over 2Ghz and over 10TF. Too many people are misinterpreting what he said to try and fit the Github leak and it’s getting annoying.
The github leak was correct at the time that data was pushed. 2GHz used to be the fixed clock, and they cranked it up. The panic must have come after the Stadia reveal. Just think about it LOL
 
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VFXVeteran

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The XSX didn't achieve 12 Teraflops efficiently since they needed 52 CUs to achieve a mere 1.87 Teraflops difference.

Again, this thread is to start a conversation about whether the XSX's 52 CU's was efficient or not to achieve that additional 1.87 Teraflops gain or not.
In a fixed configuration, you basically need more silicon in order to gain just a little more speed and at the same time controlling heat. Power and heat propagation are not linear and definitely have a falloff where the rate of change in performance starts to flatten. That's why new levels of performance are introduced when the die size (i.e. 10nm to 7nm) changes.

Don't look at it as a disadvantage over using 36CUs. I love brute force because 1) it's the most stable and 2) the most compatible (i.e. Nvidia GPUs for example). I think MS did a wonderful job with their console this time around. Let's give credit where it's due.
 
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sinnergy

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It’s a bad design from Sony , both Kinect bad and ESRAM bad , what happened? Look forward to reading that book in 7 years.
 

SleepDoctor

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These threads end up showing how much worse the warriors are on the blue team.

All that trolling and shit talking every single xbox thread and now that Sony shit the bed they can't cope with it 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️
 

Dontuseducks

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lol He didn’t downplay TFs. He as well as Richard and John in the DF video said the same thing insiders had been saying for months; TFs don’t tell the whole story and trying to use them as some measure of power is a fool’s errand. Hell, I just saw early today on Twitter a dev who had 22 AAA games under his belt stretching from Nintendo to Sony to MS laughed when someone tried to throw TFs in his face. He said no one in the industry uses TFs to compare power. That says it all.
But what about when the other important pieces also have better specs?
 

Bitmap Frogs

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Damage Control - The Thread.

Ironically, I think 10 TF is enough. It's not like it won't be able to do 4k 60
4k is 4x 1080.

If you have a 1080p30 game running base ps4, you would need 7.5 teraflops to run it at 4k native and double that (15 teraflops) to make it 4k60.

Granted it's a newer and more efficient architecture for this generation but still, I doubt we'll see 4k60 anywhere soon. I think the realistic scenario will be "next gen" graphics at native 4k30 on the xbox and upscaled to 4k30 on the ps5. At the end of the day, tweaking the resolution is the easiest way for a dev to upscale/downscale the graphics to a different spec.
 
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Dontuseducks

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Its not.

Teraflops isn't the main indicator of factor that makes a console superior overall. Sure it may help hitting 4K60FPS but what else can it do to make a game genuinely better in terms if gameplay design, audio, loading times, etc.
It's not like XsX is ONLY better on TFLOPS.
 

Rightisright

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Osiris pretty much admitted he's been bullshitting, before the reveal started. He will be banned soon i'm sure.
Nah he won't.
I'm not sure whats wrong with someones head to make up all that stuff about inside knowedge, playing next gen games etc. Its like a cry for attention.
 

KiNeMz

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Little do you all see the hidden gem is the 3d audio. With the 3d audio the system can use sound waves to detect silicon particle positioning in the SSD without transmitting any power through the bus to CPU and GPU The tflops argument become null as the console can theoretically be turned off while the 3d audio sound is running in standby mode. In turn it can create billions of micro vibrations to emulate virtual CUs on the cohesion engine plane therfore boosting the virtual clock speeds to over 3.6Ghz with the machine turned off.
 

Johnglen

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Weren’t people saying how horrible it would be for Sony to have only 36 CU at insane clock speeds in the speculation thread hence the github was wrong ? Anyway good luck with the variable speeds in both the CPU and GPU both to the ps5 buyers and the developers.
 
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Mista

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Weren’t people saying how horrible it would be for Sony to have only 36 CU at insane clock speeds in the speculation thread hence the github was wrong ? Anyway good luck with the variable speeds in both the CPU and GPU both to the ps5 buyers and the developers.
Everything changed now can't you see? RAW POWER IS NOT IMPORTANT ANYMORE RREEEEEEEE
 

Memorabilia

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I cannot believe that Cerny and his team were able to achieve 10.28 Teraflops with just 36 CUs!

XSX needed 52 CU's (16 additional CU's) to achieve an additional 1.87 Teraflops, which is not much of a difference when you really think about it. I guess one of the senior engineers at Microsoft really loves Blink-187 and wanted to pay homage to them in a way.

The power consumption of the XSX will be massive because of its heavy reliance on 52 CU's while the PS5 were cost and power consumption effective with just 36 CU's.

This thread is to start a conversation about whether the XSX's 52 CU's was efficient or not to achieve that additional 1.87 Teraflops gain or not.
LOL this is literally backwards from how it really works. Power consumption goes up dramatically with frequency beyond a certain point, not CUs.
 

gamerforever

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If the PS5 is smaller and doesn't heat up/ make signficant noise, then it is well balanced. I highly doubt that the console will stay cool for prolonged periods and would be very surprised if it makes less noise than my PS4 Pro. Because Sony will need to keep the console cool in a traditional console box, I can see the console needing better quality cooling than on Xbox Series X, so I doubt there will be much difference in price. The ssd will make things less balanced. I will reserve final judgement once people can test the actual console, and it is worrying that Sony haven't even shown it off yet.
 
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Roxkis_ii

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Oh so now its more about cost and sales and less about power? 52 CUs aren't excessive its about the right range to provide a true generational leap. Personally being a PS user, I hope Sony's solution is going to give a similar experience to Xsex for third party games but you fanboys are hilarious. And what would you do if MS actually manages to compete with Sony on price? How will you spin it then?

At the end of the day, exclusive games are what matter the most to a lot of people. Sony has lot of good games behind their console currently.

Ms bought some studios, but it's yet to be seen if they match the quality and variety of Sony's games, or if Microsoft will let their devs actually shine.

I know it's been bleek on the Xbox side for a long time, but crappying on your competitors won't make your xbox better.

Xbox has a one up on PS in one stat.
Buts that's all. PS gamers still have games to look forward to this year, on our current console.

I hope Xbox fans get games to look forward to as well. Maybe they wouldn't care so much about a console they likely won't buy.