[Clark Gable]
Banned
Demons Souls is the only japanese game I liked n the past couple years fuck those gamers in japan for not embracing sakaguchi
OldJadedGamer said:Look at the output of say Sony's first party titles developed in the west compared to the first party titles made in the east.
You spend X amount of money on a product because you think it can bring Z amount in profit. Since Western companies saw more potential in the market's growth than Japan did, it invested increasingly large amounts of money in the development of video games, making more profit, taking bigger shares of the market.
Simple economics. The Western companies had more foresight, they managed to see the potential growth and act accordingly, while Japan did not.
Jintor said:It's not neccessarily 'the smell of their own'. There are probably quite a few reviewers out there who can like both the best of Western games and the best of Eastern games.
I liked Bioshock, but not for its gameplay.
BGBW said:Despite the article quoting a reasonable definition of Moé most have ignored it including the article writer
Rahxephon91 said:See, I don't see how that's true. It's effecting a small niche of games that we would have never gotten here or cared about. Those type of strange otaku games always existed in Japan. Are they even that big in Japan? The article even says it doesn't even effect big franchisees in Japan, the ones we would care about. And if anything the "moe" games we do care about here come over and apparently have a small but dedicated following that keeps NIS alive.
So how is moe killing gaming in Japan?
Oh? There have been a LOT of games released in 2011 and many more coming up this Fall. Just how many of them are truly military? Call of Duty? Battlefield? There's definitely a few others, of course, but it definitely hasn't taken over the industry. It just so happens that some of the more popular games right now are military shooters, but that's no different than when GTA was popular or Final Fantasy, really. It's just where we're at right now but it doesn't effect the games industry at large.Clear said:To be honest I find the relentless omnipresent militarism of western games far more disturbing than any other trend worldwide.
BocoDragon said:such as?
Finaika said:Why are their hands like that?
ScionOfTheRisingSun said:Yeah, well that is where we differ. The only part of such games relevant to me is the gameplay. This the crux of where I find my tastes have come out of sync with the average western gamer. Western gamers have started to play games just for setting and narrative alone, and they tolerate or completely disregard the often janky and lackluster gameplay which that narrative package is wrapped around as an mere afterthought. Western games have started to veer closer to Hollywood, they have started to feel more and more like interactive movie experiences.
This is a sort of thinking I cannot ever get behind.
Well then I think it's a pretty weak argument. You can make it for anime, but thats because everyone is well aware that that is from Japan. Video games? Not so much. I don't think people look at FF and don't want to buy it because "oh moe". They don't want to buy it because well it looks "gay. Shadows of the Damned didn't bomb here because of moe or how people perceive Japan. Most gamers probably didn't even know it was a Japanese game if they even knew what it was. It bombed because it wasn't marketed well or it's style does not jive well with western more specifically western gamers. What games are gaining huge attention in America? LA Noire, Deus Ex, Red Dead Redemption, CoD, and even Gears. What do all these have in common beyond shooting people? The all sell this gritty imagery. I think what is really attracting western gamers is supposed gritty and more "realistic" games. Japan has not given gamers that really and that is why their new ips have failed, not because of Moe. The old regulars though, still sale here.Pureauthor said:His argument is not that it's affecting the big names or its overall world perception,
But would western gamers really care about that scene? Probably not and that niche scene in Japan has always existed, it's just now it's moe. But even then small developers like Grasshoppa, Platinum, and Atlus make their nice games and they don't have moe. The nice games from Japan still exist, at least the ones the hardcore gamer wants. Sure it's infected stuff like NIS, but I don't think moe is the culprit for screwing with the game scene. If you took the moe art out of NIS/Gust games would they sell better here, would more people care about them? I doubt it.but it's strangling the indie/niche scene into following a precise guideline of what you must put into the game to appeal to the tiny otaku crowd who will pay whatever money you ask to get their hands on what they want.
Maybe, but you still have Japanese developers making their niche games. Would a lot of the moe developers even make creative games if given the chance? Or are they just the new porn game makers of today? Do we really need to care about what they are making?This, in effect, kills the creativity pipeline of up-and-comers who want to experiment with new stuff
Clear said:To be honest I find the relentless omnipresent militarism of western games far more disturbing than any other trend worldwide.
Jintor said:But do you play Visual Novels (or close equivalents like Phoenix Wright and 999)? Because there's a branch of Japanese gameplay that is almost entirely setting and narrative, sacrificing gameplay on the altar of entertainment.
Rahxephon91 said:*stuff*
supersaw said:You find it disturbing that first person shooters have shooting in them?
Fair enough. I just think the article spends to much time on moe as a culprit when I think it's a pretty small thing in a bigger problem.Pureauthor said:I might as well make clear that I do not agree with the reasoning within this article, I just thought that you had misread what his argument was, and wanted to clarify.
ScionOfTheRisingSun said:Anywaste, as you said, that sort of approach is reserved just for an isolated niche branch in the Japanese development mileu. It is by no means an all encompassing game design philosophy extending to all games.
discoalucard said:So when Japan does it, it's all cool, but when the West does it, it's something you can't get behind.
Ok then!
TheShampion said:Not sure actually, edited my post to reflect that.
Clear said:Its less about shooting than uniforms and body-armour everywhere I look.
I find it dehumanizing and symptomatic of the increasingly paranoid nature of western society and culture.
ScionOfTheRisingSun said:You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.
I wish your whole region of the world would fix its aggressive eternally butt-hurt hubris. Alas, you inherited that shitty sense of unquestionable superiority from the greek, and it is so ingrained into your cultural fabric that it cannot ever be washed out.
ScionOfTheRisingSun said:Yeah, I do occasionally, not often mind you, only stuff that are praised to heaven exactly like 999, Pheonix Wright and Hotel Dusk.
But I don't see those as videogames, I regard them as compact manga/anime, often with better writing and pacing. I find after about 2004 I have not really been able to enjoy anime series anymore. Their typical 26 episode run is too lengthy, the writing is inconsistent and the animation quality leaves a lot to be desired.
I mostly just suffice with Anime movies which have great pacing and amazing animation quality and supplement that with aforementioned titles.
Anywaste, as you said, that sort of approach is reserved just for an isolated niche branch in the Japanese development mileu. It is by no means an all encompassing game design philosophy extending to all games.
ScionOfTheRisingSun said:You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.
I wish your whole region of the world would fix its aggressive eternally butt-hurt hubris. Alas, you inherited that shitty sense of unquestionable superiority from the greek, and it is so ingrained into your cultural fabric that it cannot ever be washed out.
Clear said:Its less about shooting than uniforms and body-armour everywhere I look.
I find it dehumanizing and symptomatic of the increasingly paranoid nature of western society and culture.
Unreal.ScionOfTheRisingSun said:You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.
I wish your whole region of the world would fix its aggressive eternally butt-hurt hubris. Alas, you inherited that shitty sense of unquestionable superiority from the greek, and it is so ingrained into your cultural fabric that it cannot ever be washed out.
Ellis Kim said:Interesting article, and I particularly enjoyed the researched bits.
After listening to the recent 8-4 Play podcast episode with Ryan Payton, I'm incredibly interested in watching/listening/reading what it is that he had to say at the talks he did in mainland Asia and Japan with their game devs, about his experience between working with KojiPro and 343 Industries, and the things he learned of things that need to change with game design and development (e.g. If you're grinding in an MMORPG and killing hundreds upon thousands of monsters, make sure the game is about killing those monsters and that the story addresses that directly--its silly that you spend so many hours killing wildlife, yet the story is more about political melodrama than not).
I think the anecdote about the well-known producer dropping Bioshock after 30 seconds is a damn fucking shame, though, and I wonder how prevalent that sort of attitude actually is, especially considering how there are so many AAA game devs these days who talk about whatever new localized western game they're playing on twitter, e.g. Kojima, Suda, Mikami, etc.
One of the largest problems about Japanese games that try and ape western games are the ones that completely miss the point, or take the wrong lessons from those games and why they were a success in the west; God of War, I feel, largely was a success for having dumbed down combat for the masses that made you look "badass," and having greek mythology as something to relate with as a commonly taught subject in the K-12 education system. Then you have games like... what was it, Vampire Rain(?) or Quantum Theory, where they take the aesthetic side of western games that are easy to understand, and completely miss the point of what makes them good (i.e. well designed AI and combat instances).
The design focus of each region is different.
I find I generally share a similar taste in games as the average Japanese gamer but I've been living in a region where people generally prefer western game design, now pretty much across the board, but prior to this gen largely only on the PC which is where the western design process is rooted.
Western gamers who have shifted their taste to PC style game design just assume that because they like this approach better now then that approach is superior, they do not accept that it merely is just different. Different is not better, but if you like one and dislike the other then it is fallacy of human beings to just assume it is. This goes for Japanese gamers as well who have long regarded western games as being shit.
But then who can blame them, not liking something and regarding it as being shit really is not that different. Selfish thoughts rule eternal in the realm of personal sentiments.
Reading through or listening to some professional western reviewer's perspective on games such as Deus EX, Mass Effect, BioShock, Fallout 3 versus let us say something like Yakuza, Final Fantasy, Catherine, paints a pretty clear picture of how exactly and where the regional sentiments differ, and how they are largely irreconcilable.
to put it simply, when it comes down to it everyone likes the smell of their own. That is all there is to it.
supersaw said:That's pretty much just COD and Battlefield so 2 out 100+ games per year, it's not exactly being force fed into every genre. Those games have always been military shooters so it's unlikely that some propaganda bureau was commissioned to inject messages of American imperialism into innocuous children's games.
Saying that western culture is paranoid is a super broad generalisation. The "west" constitutes of other countries and even continents besides the US where tastes slightly differ yet again.
ScionOfTheRisingSun said:You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.
I wish your whole region of the world would fix its aggressive eternally butt-hurt hubris. Alas, you inherited that shitty sense of unquestionable superiority from the greek, and it is so ingrained into your cultural fabric that it cannot ever be washed out.
ScionOfTheRisingSun said:You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.
I wish your whole region of the world would fix its aggressive eternally butt-hurt hubris. Alas, you inherited that shitty sense of unquestionable superiority from the greek, and it is so ingrained into your cultural fabric that it cannot ever be washed out.
ScionOfTheRisingSun said:Learn to read.
I said the Japanese only do it in a limited capacity in a niche genre, in the west it is a movement effecting how all games are designed.
You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.
I wish your whole region of the world would fix its aggressive eternally butt-hurt hubris. Alas, you inherited that shitty sense of unquestionable superiority from the greek, and it is so ingrained into your cultural fabric that it cannot ever be washed out.
Jintor said:Actually anime episode runs got revised to a standard of about 13 episodes, which affects pacing pleasingly and whatnot. Anyway, I don't think that 'cinematic storytelling' as you put it is all-encompassing on the Western front.
Tell us how you really feel.ScionOfTheRisingSun said:Learn to read.
I said the Japanese only do it in a limited capacity in a niche genre, in the west it is a movement effecting how all games are designed.
You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.
I wish your whole region of the world would fix its aggressive eternally butt-hurt hubris. Alas, you inherited that shitty sense of unquestionable superiority from the greek, and it is so ingrained into your cultural fabric that it cannot ever be washed out.
NotebookJ2 said:...oh my. I think you might want to step away from these forums for awhile.
I kinda agree with hubris being a huge obstacle in these types of discussions though I think both sides tend to exhibit it in different ways
ScionOfTheRisingSun said:Anywaste,
Finaika said:Maybe a western gamer killed his dog.
SatelliteOfLove said:@underlined: I would just like to point out that this is sadly incorrect. Classic PC gaming aesthetics and Modern Western gaming are as different as Katamari Damacy is to Gears of War.
@bolded: I can't put my finger on it, but it's like the "zeitgeist" has been removed from Japanese games, no matter if they're wacky, western-looking, western genred, classic franchise, old vet design teams, etc. They just don't seem to get the mulligan of not having a sceptical preconception going in for many in the west now, which fewer overcome.
Read more HG101 before throwing around shit like "indignant acidic vehemence" at him imo.ScionOfTheRisingSun said:Learn to read.
I said the Japanese only do it in a limited capacity in a niche genre, in the west it is a movement effecting how all games are designed.
You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.
Kalnos said:This thread just went full weeaboo.
Hari Seldon said:I never heard of the term moe, but 9 times out of 10 if I see even a hint of the anime bullshit I won't even consider the game.
ScionOfTheRisingSun said:I am not talking about classic PC gaming design aesthetics, I am talking about modern PC design aesthetics, as in the design approach of important developers who until recently were PC exclusive but are now making console games as well.
Old guard PC developers like Bethesda, Epic, Bioware, Irrational etc. etc. these guys are the torchbearers of the western/PC development approach.
Hari Seldon said:I never heard of the term moe, but 9 times out of 10 if I see even a hint of the anime bullshit I won't even consider the game.
Moe generally doesn't consist of showing off cleavage.richiek said:An example of western moe:
Moe is the ability of a character to instill in the audience an irrational desire to adore them, hug them, protect them, comfort them, pet them, help them with whatever they need/want, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT2GRpwwS8MRedSwirl said:http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Moe
Sorry if I just robbed you of five hours of your life.
Kuro Madoushi said:I do enjoy the odd Persona games, stuff from Nintendo, and some of Capcom's offerings.
But, seriously?
Konami? What the fuck happened?! SotN, MGS, RR, SC, AC, MOTHERFUCKING SUIKODEN?! When was the last time they released anything relevant? MGS:R hasn't seen the light of day, and their next releases are HD remixes...what the hell is the team doing?!
Sega? Sonic is DEAD! Altered Beast? Dead! Shenmue? Dead! Valkyrie Chronicles should be successful, but it's likely gonna die. Is there ANYTHING coming out from them that's worth the watch?
SE has had some successes recently, but a lot of those successes were from Western developers. All their Japanese stuff has been shit. I'm sorry, but FUCK DQMMORPG.
Level 5? WKC was shit! Ni no Kuni...will it ever even been released outside Japan?
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It's clear that this generation of developers was heavily influenced and fell in love with games made by the big Japanese studios, but the Japanese games industry is simply stagnant.
richiek said:An example of western moe:
http://www.nationalgamingleague.com...loads/2011/07/bioshock-infinite-elizabeth.jpg
supersaw said:That's pretty much just COD and Battlefield so 2 out 100+ games per year, it's not exactly being force fed into every genre. Those games have always been military shooters so it's unlikely that some propaganda bureau was commissioned to inject messages of American imperialism into innocuous children's games.
Saying that western culture is paranoid is a super broad generalisation. The "west" constitutes of other countries besides the US where tastes slightly differ yet again.