Support NeoGAF

[forgeforsaken]

Watching the LBP video you can see it's potential for success or failure. It's interesting that some of the negative aspects aren't really being discussed. There are three parts of the video where the flow breaks down and one of the players has trouble doing something, jumping on the soccer ball, getting a jetpack, and riding the blue stars. If the game has too many of these moments it is going to prove very frustrating to the average person. It looks to have a fantastic art style, and a very well implemented level editing and sharing system, but if the gameplay ends up more frustrating than fun it's not going to spawn a large community of quality content. I think it's inevitable that at the very least there will be a dedicated community, but how big it ends up and how long it lasts remains to be seen.

 

[TobitheCat]

The first hour was slow but the last hour really picked up.

Luke mentioned that we shouldn't trust Sony because they haven't necessarily delivered on their 2005 promises (unlike MS right?) and that we should stay skeptical of Home. I liked that N'Gai in pretty much the last sentence of the show reminded Luke and pointed out that Home was playable and demonstrated live at this presentation unlike stuff we saw in 2005.

Both Home & LBP was demonstrated well over 20mins each it seemed and 95% of the stuff they promised they showed off working in the flesh, in real time. It's not like Home is way off in the future either, there will be 15 000 of us already next month that will be able to take part of the beta trial.

There was one point though Luke talked to Phil about in the 1up interview and that was how matchmaking would work for something like MotorStorm if you used Home, and he asked about how the hooks and mechanics for that would work. From the FAQ:



Now, the specific point Luke meant most likely was that if you would be able to jump into a specific game and server and not just generally start up the game. The second part of that FAQ proves that it is coming but there was a recent article as well that also got a scoop on that the specific feature will not be in the Beta on day one next month but will have been totally worked out and in place for the actual release of the service in October. So what I'm saying is that the main feature Luke seemed interesting in is definitely coming and it will be there for the final service and my guess it will from now forward be a requirement to developers by Sony to have that little launch specific game/server hook in their games (probably a small piece of code provided by Sony I would think). I would also think that this would enable us to send game invites from inside a game (since at that time the underlying technology will be ready and available).

Anyways, read the Home FAQ people, it's actually quite interesting:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=145720

You really shouldn't trust any controlled "vertical slice" demonstrations from any company. If it wasn't playable on the show floor for people to test out, then it shouldn't be trusted. That applies to any company.

I'm always reminded of the Halo 2 demo showed off a few years ago at E3. It was real-time, it was playable, but it wasn't a real game.

 

[Gigglepoo]

This episode of 1UP Yours was extremely painful to listen to.

People like you have spoken against every form of art that has ever been created. Thankfully, artists ignore your trite analysis of their work and concentrate on bringing their creative vision to the people who appreciate art in all its forms. Just like some movie goers only like stupid action flicks while others would rather watch a black and white foreign film, so too do gamers have different needs and expectations. To label the art already prevalent in this industry as a failure because it did not sell as well as Madden is so close-minded it makes me fear for the future of our species.

 

[skip]

blah blah blah

to paraphrase warren spector, stories aren't going anywhere, so get over it.

 

[Gigglepoo]

to paraphrase warren spector, stories aren't going anywhere, so get over it.

You said that to a guy who uses neither letters nor numbers for his forum name. I think he is strongly opposed to the basic tenets of language.

 

[gutter_trash]

being part of the gaming workforce, I appreciated this weeks podcast allot.

People who also work in the industry may relate more to this week's podcast then non-inudustry peoples

I liked it when they commented that Rockstar keeps away from focus groups because they want to do what they want to do.

Some of us who work for one of the "big" publishers know well how "focus groups" and "higher upper management" interference ends up hampering the original game's real focus.

as far as "little" games. Being an old fart from the arcade era: I love "little" games

 

[Wollan]

You really shouldn't trust any controlled "vertical slice" demonstrations from any company. If it wasn't playable on the show floor for people to test out, then it shouldn't be trusted. That applies to any company.

There are degrees though and unlike the fast Halo 2 singleplayer run you had a slow walk around in everything Home with demonstrations of every aspect, commentaries and so on. And with there opening up 15 000 spots in the beta next month (and I'm pretty sure I will get to participate) it should indicate that on the whole this thing is pretty much finished.

 

[Goreomedy]

There are three parts of the video where the flow breaks down and one of the players has trouble doing something, jumping on the soccer ball, getting a jetpack, and riding the blue stars. If the game has too many of these moments it is going to prove very frustrating to the average person. It looks to have a fantastic art style, and a very well implemented level editing and sharing system, but if the gameplay ends up more frustrating than fun it's not going to spawn a large community of quality content. I think it's inevitable that at the very least there will be a dedicated community, but how big it ends up and how long it lasts remains to be seen.

I thought those moments in the demo made it even more charming. This small, pitiful creature couldn't do something on its own, so the others had to chip in to help. I think the Co-Op aspect is one of the greatest positive marks on the checklist. With voice chat, you can coach someone who is having difficulty get through an obstacle, or just throw on a jet pack and help them yourself.

And if you're playing competitively, you'll want the other person to struggle a little.

 

[datruth29]

Great podcast this week. Although, I was a bit disappointed that there was absolutely no discussion about the MMO panel. Luke, I would figure you among all of them would want to talk about that (Mr. SCARABBBBB LORRRRRRDDDDDDD!!!!).

 

[Woo-Fu]

There have been a number of FPS games on the original Xbox which allowed you to create your own multiplayer maps with the level editor and then upload them for other people to download.

Care to name them, because I am from an alternative universe, one where those games in fact DID NOT exist.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Care to name them, because I am from an alternative universe, one where those games in fact DID NOT exist.

Pariah had a comprehensive level editor, though I don't remember if it allowed users to upload/download creations, though. Did any Timesplitter let you trade levels?

 

[Kintaro]

Watching the LBP video you can see it's potential for success or failure. It's interesting that some of the negative aspects aren't really being discussed. There are three parts of the video where the flow breaks down and one of the players has trouble doing something, jumping on the soccer ball, getting a jetpack, and riding the blue stars. If the game has too many of these moments it is going to prove very frustrating to the average person. It looks to have a fantastic art style, and a very well implemented level editing and sharing system, but if the gameplay ends up more frustrating than fun it's not going to spawn a large community of quality content. I think it's inevitable that at the very least there will be a dedicated community, but how big it ends up and how long it lasts remains to be seen.

What you're talking about is no different than anyone struggling in Super Mario Bros.

 

[sangreal]

Care to name them, because I am from an alternative universe, one where those games in fact DID NOT exist.

I never played it, but doesn't Far Cry Instincts have this feature?

 

[Wollan]

FarCry Instincts on the Xbox 1 (and probably the following re packagings) had the best level editor of any console game (until they showed LBP obviously). There was one problem though and that was that you really couldn't change the theme much at all. Every user made level had a jungle island of some variation with some huts and sea surrounding it. But the level editor itself was very well made and it actually gets you pleasingly close to what you can do with real tools like a Unreal Editor (from a gamepad/userfriendly perspective). LBP is definitely the next step though and it supports cooperative level making, you can bring in whatever pictures/textures to totally differentiate the look from whatever other people are doing and the whole editor looks ultra smooth and really, really powerful.

 

[Confidence Man]

Care to name them, because I am from an alternative universe, one where those games in fact DID NOT exist.

Far Cry Instincts. It's a great editor, too.

 

[teiresias]

I thought those moments in the demo made it even more charming. This small, pitiful creature couldn't do something on its own, so the others had to chip in to help. I think the Co-Op aspect is one of the greatest positive marks on the checklist. With voice chat, you can coach someone who is having difficulty get through an obstacle, or just throw on a jet pack and help them yourself.

And if you're playing competitively, you'll want the other person to struggle a little.

It could also be argued, that with the community aspects that they're trying to promote that designed levels that successfully mitigate such instances, or possibly even integrate them properly into the level's flow, will rise to the top of the rankings.

 

[Wollan]

LBP is a platformer without enemies or death. How often do you see that.

 

[FrankT]

Lmao @Luke on saving 8 on Flow.

 

[Goreomedy]

LBP is a platformer without enemies or death. How often do you see that.

Wouldn't getting "stuck" be considered death in this game?

Wait, I just had an idea for my very first LBP creation!

Imagine a pit with an arrow pointing down into it. Characters will have no option but to jump inside and freefall for a near eternity before finally hitting bottom. Then they'll see, stamped on the wall behind them:

 

[etiolate]

1. The Wii port situation is a tricky one. I'm surprised that they admitted that theyt hink what the gamers have thought, that third parties put poor efforts out on Nintendo platforms. The whole problem is third parties going up against Nintendo titles, and the only thing Nintendo can do about that is give 3rd parties a launch window without a Nintendo title. It is also up to 3rd parties to much the quality of Nintendo titles. It is a simple competition problem. Major game makers suck up sales. If there were Final Fantasy games every month on a Sony platform, other 3rd parties would suffer and bail as well.

Simply offering 'moneyhats' is a bad direction for the industry to keep going.

2. "There are people who say they don't want stories in games and I think those people are part of the problem." (Not an exact quote)

Okay, let me tell you why some people don't want stories in their games.

A) Not all games are fitting vehicles for a story. You don't need a story in a puzzler, you don't really want a story in a platformer(this has ruined Sonic and hurt Mario Sunshine AND alienated the platform frenzied 16 bit generation). Companies are shoehorning stories in places where they don't belong.

B) Quite honestly, there is noone in the business that has shown the ability to craft a story in a game well enough for there to be an outcry for more stories in games. The stories in games are just not up to par, even the 'story based' games of Final Fantasy and Metal Gear leave me cringing and mashing the skip button. The devs need to show they can do it before I will say 'bring it on!"

B2) Story telling in games barely uses the media's format and advantages. People tell stories over the game, but not through the game. Too much interruption, not enough interaction(a la Super Metroid).

3. Physical weight being a detriment to enjoying Wii was a fine argument towards Gerstmann, but is a no-no in regards to Luke? Is this just because of remorse from the way people were with Gerstmann, or just because the forum hero worships the 1up guys and is no stranger to double standards? Let Luke defend himself, he dishes it out and I'm sure he can take it. I don't think it's why he dislikes Wii, but I had to roll my eyes at people's response to the argument.

 

[Big-E]

3. Physical weight being a detriment to enjoying Wii was a fine argument towards Gerstmann, but is a no-no in regards to Luke? Is this just because of remorse from the way people were with Gerstmann, or just because the forum hero worships the 1up guys and is no stranger to double standards? Let Luke defend himself, he dishes it out and I'm sure he can take it. I don't think it's why he dislikes Wii, but I had to roll my eyes at people's response to the argument.

People here actually blame Gerstmann cause of his weight?

 

[Gigglepoo]

2. "There are people who say they don't want stories in games and I think those people are part of the problem." (Not an exact quote)

The point is, if developers are spending a fortune on every aspect of a game, why do we have to suffer through a piss poor story? I went to the Cliffy B discussion of Gears at GDC. I actually felt bad for him a few times. He said, "I'm glad we didn't have space aliens. Locusts come from underground." My buddy and I both looked surprise, even though we had played through the game twice. We had no idea they weren't from space.

Bad story telling doesn't make a game bad, but it certainly hurts. It just seems lazy to me. There are plenty of writers out there willing to create original content. If gamers accept crap like Gears we'll never seen improvement.

This is why I was overly harsh towards Hotel Dusk as well. Gamers deserve better and praising these subpar attempts makes one "part of the problem."

 

[Tiktaalik]

With regards to people who criticize the story of Gears of War:

Remember those parts of the game where you were walking around slowly while people talked about what was going on? Would you like more of that? Double that? Triple that? If you're like me the answer is no. I thought Gears of War had a good amount of story. It threw you right in the action. The point of the game was to fight bad guys. You knew there was more to the story, but you didn't get bogged down on it. You can tell there will be more revealed later. I thought it was perfect. The dialog could have been a lot better sure, but I think Gears of War had the right percentage devoted to story for the type of gameplay that they were going for. I've been fairly irritated at how much story developers are dumping into games recently, and I thought it was a breath of fresh air. Gears of War is telling the story of a group of guys going from point A to point B. It's not a grandiose epic.

 

[Gigglepoo]

I thought Gears of War had a good amount of story.

The amount of story was fine. The content was not.

 

[Tiktaalik]

The amount of story was fine. The content was not.

That's a good clarification to make, but I would argue that you couldn't make more of the story without increasing the time alloted to story elements. If we're arguing about poor dialogue, well then I agree with you there, it could have been better.

 

[Mr. Mister]

With regards to people who criticize the story of Gears of War:

Remember those parts of the game where you were walking around slowly while people talked about what was going on? Would you like more of that? Double that? Triple that? If you're like me the answer is no.

wow i thought it was rather obvious that the slow down walking and talking thing was just a clever way to disguise the loading of the next section.

 

[tokkun]

3. Physical weight being a detriment to enjoying Wii was a fine argument towards Gerstmann, but is a no-no in regards to Luke? Is this just because of remorse from the way people were with Gerstmann, or just because the forum hero worships the 1up guys and is no stranger to double standards? Let Luke defend himself, he dishes it out and I'm sure he can take it. I don't think it's why he dislikes Wii, but I had to roll my eyes at people's response to the argument.

It's an idiotic argument, no matter who it's leveled at. There are no Wii games that require physically-intensive play and only a handful that even encourage it.

 

[Muppet345]

So before I listen to this tomorrow on my car ride home, does it have any Mass Effect spoilers? I skipped the 1Up Yours on it and all of the previews from GDC.

edit: Actually, sounds like Luke is going on his monthly PMS about the Wii from the responses. I'll just listen to This American Life.

 

[sublime085]

So before I listen to this tomorrow on my car ride home, does it have any Mass Effect spoilers? I skipped the 1Up Yours on it and all of the previews from GDC.

edit: Actually, sounds like Luke is going on his monthly PMS about the Wii. I'll just listen to This American Life.

OT I know, but I just saw the first episode of the TV show on Showtime on demand. They had an early premiere. It's really well done.

 

[Bauer Action Hour]

This podcast had no mention of Mass Effect, which disappointed me.

 

[Muppet345]

OT I know, but I just saw the first episode of the TV show on Showtime on demand. They had an early premiere. It's really well done.

thanks for the heads up. I'm looking forward to the show. no showtime, but yeah, should be on iTunes for $2.

thanks bauer. I guess I'll listen after all. Luke can't be that bad :O

 

[Reilly]

I loved that session. Once I am no longer hungover from all of the work from this week, I want to write about it on 1UP, either as a news story or a blog entry. It was a fascinating, if sometimes a bit obvious, discussion of the evolution of console cycles.

You don't check your PM's

 

[Brak]

What you're talking about is no different than anyone struggling in Super Mario Bros.

Yeah but I don't have to wait for the jackass who can't jump onto the platform in Super Mario Bros.

I don't think it will really be a big problem but there is potential for headaches.

 

[tokkun]

Yeah but I don't have to wait for the jackass who can't jump onto the platform in Super Mario Bros.

I don't think it will really be a big problem but there is potential for headaches.

Have you ever played LoZ: Four Swords? Co-op with four players does run into this problem regularly. It can be a bit annoying, but if the majority of the gameplay is fun, it's not a big deal. I'd rather play in a co-op environment that allows for collaborative puzzle-solving, even if you occasionally have to wait while your friend struggles with a jump.

 

[Brak]

Have you ever played LoZ: Four Swords? Co-op with four players does run into this problem regularly. It can be a bit annoying, but if the majority of the gameplay is fun, it's not a big deal. I'd rather play in a co-op environment that allows for collaborative puzzle-solving, even if you occasionally have to wait while your friend struggles with a jump.

I totally agree, but playing online is somewhat different than playing with people in the same room. It will prolly boil down to playing with people you know, so as to avoid griefers.

 

[FartOfWar]

With regards to people who criticize the story of Gears of War:

Remember those parts of the game where you were walking around slowly while people talked about what was going on? Would you like more of that? Double that? Triple that? If you're like me the answer is no. I thought Gears of War had a good amount of story. It threw you right in the action. The point of the game was to fight bad guys. You knew there was more to the story, but you didn't get bogged down on it. You can tell there will be more revealed later. I thought it was perfect. The dialog could have been a lot better sure, but I think Gears of War had the right percentage devoted to story for the type of gameplay that they were going for. I've been fairly irritated at how much story developers are dumping into games recently, and I thought it was a breath of fresh air. Gears of War is telling the story of a group of guys going from point A to point B. It's not a grandiose epic.

I do not accept your either/or fallacy.

 

[mckmas8808]

N'Gai was great. That guy needs to be on this podcast EVERY WEEK!!!!

His intellegence combined with Luke's jokes and wit, combined with Shane's view on videogames is untouchable.

The normal 1Up crew + N'Gai is the best videogame podcast in life!

 

[Wollan]

There will most likely be singleplayer levels as well in LBP. Probably sortable I would hope.

 

[Tieno]

N'Gai was great. That guy needs to be on this podcast EVERY WEEK!!!!

His intellegence combined with Luke's jokes and wit, combined with Shane's view on videogames is untouchable.

The normal 1Up crew + N'Gai is the best videogame podcast in life!

Needs more ALLCAPS and !!! for true mckmas enthusiasm.

 

[ant1532]

So was there no 1UP show this week or anything special?

 

[Wollan]

So was there no 1UP show this week or anything special?

This whole week was a 1up show.

 

[BrokenSymmetry]

I thought N'Gai was great as well. It's just that at times he's in danger of becoming a name-dropper. There was a little bit too much of "When I interviewed Shigeru", "when I was in Jamil's suite", "when I talked to Phil", etc.

I especially appreciated N'Gai's opinion that something's dangeroulsy wrong if almost all games developers have to sign away the right to their IP to the publisher. At least music composers and lyricists have an institution like ASCAP that protects the rights of the original creators of a piece of music. Maybe the games world needs an institution like that?

 

[RumFore]

Great podcast as usual but I thought N'Gai, though interesting, would often bring the conversation to a screeching halt with his slow way of saying whatever he was trying to say. Sheez hurry up. Its like he slowed time down while talking. Also whats this big hype about Little Big Planet? Looks interesting but there making it out to be earth shattering or atleast John is.

 

[TTP]

Great podcast as usual but I thought N'Gai, though interesting, would often bring the conversation to a screeching halt with his slow way of saying whatever he was trying to say. Sheez hurry up. Its like he slowed time down while talking. Also whats this big hype about Little Big Planet? Looks interesting but there making it out to be earth shattering or atleast John is.

You didnt see the Sony keynote did you? If you did and still cant see why people are hyped then it's your problem not theirs.

 

[Kittonwy]

Great podcast as usual but I thought N'Gai, though interesting, would often bring the conversation to a screeching halt with his slow way of saying whatever he was trying to say. Sheez hurry up. Its like he slowed time down while talking. Also whats this big hype about Little Big Planet? Looks interesting but there making it out to be earth shattering or atleast John is.

Because this is the first time where a game that allows for user-created content seems to be so easy and accessible, not to mention this is the first time something like that is made the highlight of a keynote which ended up more of a press event. The bottomline is that LBP is incredibly endearing in its presentation and design, and that's a huge selling point. Level editors are not new but Rockman Rockman PSP never received anywhere nearly as much hype as this game. It highlights Game 3.0 as more of a Sony initiative rather than just an extra feature in a game.

 

[Haunted]

There will most likely be singleplayer levels as well in LBP. Probably sortable I would hope.

Developer-made levels > User-created levels. I really hope LBP will be a solid single-player title with a number of different levels and on top of that you'll have the ability to play levels other users created. Every other game with a level editor (Racing, FPS or Puzzler) did not make me spend as much playtime on the user-created levels than the ones that were included at release, made by the professionals.

I realise that this might be different for others, but I really hope media Molecule incorporates lots of proper pre-made levels into the game. I don't want to only play user-created stuff.

 

[FartOfWar]

Because this is the first time where a game that allows for user-created content seems to be so easy and accessible, not to mention this is the first time something like that is made the highlight of a keynote which ended up more of a press event. The bottomline is that LBP is incredibly endearing in its presentation and design, and that's a huge selling point. Level editors are not new but Rockman Rockman PSP never received anywhere nearly as much hype as this game. It highlights Game 3.0 as more of a Sony initiative rather than just an extra feature in a game.

No joke, I had a video of a 300 meter-long working/animated squid made from trash attacking people in real time in Garry's Mod as I read your post.

 

[jwj442]

I really don't think LBP is going to be the big seller people expect it to be. It' do better than Viva Pinata, but not by a huge margin - I'll be surprised if it ends up being a major killer app.

Also, please don't use "Game 3.0" as if it's a widely accepted industry standard and not just a Sony marketing term. It doesn't deserve any more dignity than "Blast Processing."

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Needs more ALLCAPS and !!! for true mckmas enthusiasm.

Think about that!

 

[Y2Kev]

Developer-made levels > User-created levels. I really hope LBP will be a solid single-player title with a number of different levels and on top of that you'll have the ability to play levels other users created. Every other game with a level editor (Racing, FPS or Puzzler) did not make me spend as much playtime on the user-created levels than the ones that were included at release, made by the professionals.

I realise that this might be different for others, but I really hope media Molecule incorporates lots of proper pre-made levels into the game. I don't want to only play user-created stuff.

I think this is true in most cases, largely because developers can create anything they want while users can only create what they have the tools to create (which is usually some significantly "dumbed-down" subset of what the developers have used). There's still some amazing user mods and things out there...