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2009. The Year of the Smoker's Catch-22.

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Lost Fragment

Obsessed with 4chan
There's creating a sense of healthy disdain towards the habit, which I don't mind because I think it's deserved, and then there's being sort of a jerk about it. And really, hearing someone say that folks who are a bit misinformed over the facts of smoking are the "dredges of the scum barrel" just makes me not want to take that person seriously, even if I might agree with some of their views otherwise.

When I quit smoking, it'll be because I did it for myself, not because one sect of society or another turns their noses up at me. If anything, the existence of people who are so vocally and passionately anti-tobacco makes me want to continue smoking to piss them off. Not everyone is a slave to what society thinks of them, and smoking has been seen as "rebellious" since before most of us were born anyway.
 

Acid08

Banned
So I've been told by people in this thread that have never met me that I'm a prick and I'm the scum of society, while the smokers in this thread have all been pretty level headed and pleasant.
 
D

Deleted member 30609

Unconfirmed Member
I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I have this fear of dieing, you see, and I usually do all I can to keep the chances of me dieing earlier than I would otherwise to a bare minimum. and as such, I don't smoke.

whether others do or not is unimportant to me, I don't judge anybody's character based on whether or not they smoke.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Acid08 said:
So I've been told by people in this thread that have never met me that I'm a prick and I'm the scum of society, while the smokers in this thread have all been pretty level headed and pleasant.

Maybe because they're defending the vice that you're afflicted with? Reduces your load of cognitive dissonance?

To be fair, smokers aren't exactly child molesters. But still, they deserve a good ribbing over their filthy habits every so often, and if they're well adjusted, they should be able to laugh it off, not get butt hurt and start resorting to lame appeals to emotion (which is what you're doing with the crap I'm quoting).
 
D

Deleted member 30609

Unconfirmed Member
dude, you used the phrase "cognitive dissonance".

no one is taking you seriously anymore.
 

Acid08

Banned
Zaptruder said:
Maybe because they're defending the vice that you're afflicted with? Reduces your load of cognitive dissonance?

To be fair, smokers aren't exactly child molesters. But still, they deserve a good ribbing over their filthy habits every so often, and if they're well adjusted, they should be able to laugh it off, not get butt hurt and start resorting to lame appeals to emotion (which is what you're doing with the crap I'm quoting).
You continue to make yourself look like more of an asshole.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
Zaptruder said:
The fuck? Do you understand what the term means?
i think they understand what it means.. they were just pointing out once you start pulling the psych terminology people stop taking you seriously. My stopping point for taking you seriously was:
Zaptruder said:
To be fair, smokers aren't exactly child molesters.

:lol i appreciate you being fair btw
 

andthebeatgoeson

Junior Member
Kastro said:
yeah 1 pack a day is definitely not light. My throat would be killing me after that.

I try to limit myself to 5-6
People who smoke less take longer, more efficient drags. People who smoke more take a few puffs and put it out. It equals out.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Lost Fragment said:
When I quit smoking, it'll be because I did it for myself, not because one sect of society or another turns their noses up at me. If anything, the existence of people who are so vocally and passionately anti-tobacco makes me want to continue smoking to piss them off. Not everyone is a slave to what society thinks of them, and smoking has been seen as "rebellious" since before most of us were born anyway.

For something as monolithic as the problem of smoking, a multiprong strategy is required.

Its fair to say that some people will react negatively towards anti-smoking propoganda (reverse psychology and all that), but at the same time, there'll be plenty of people that will react positively towards such a strategy (feelings of shame, paranoia towards been mocked, whatever)... such that it justifies the use of the strategy.

Again; 1-2% of many millions of smokers is still hundreds of thousands of lives.

With reference to my 'dredge of the scum barrel' comment, it was somewhat joking, but more directed towards people that defend smoking (rather than smokers themselves)... who tend to fall into 2 categories; people who profit from smoking and people that smoke that try to reduce their cognitive dissonance* by reducing the perception of damage that they are inflicting on themselves through smoking... and end up defending/promoting a needless habit.

*you can ignore the argument on the basis of that term; doesn't change the validity of my argument.
 

JayDubya

Banned
Zaptruder said:
Costs the government more in lost productivity and opportunity costs (lost productivity of the people sick off smoking and subsequent taxes, and the opportunity costs of the health workers servicing these sick people) alone than they make in taxes off cigarettes.

a) The government is not entitled to your future productivity. :lol What the hell? In that case, everyone should have a legal obligation to perform the highest paying task available to them with their education level... I suppose you could go further back and more fundamental than that as well...

b) If they're paying for themselves, it's between them and the hospital / health workers, not you.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
JayDubya said:
a) The government is not entitled to your future productivity. :lol What the hell? In that case, everyone should have a legal obligation to perform the highest paying task available to them with their education level... I suppose you could go further back and more fundamental than that as well...

b) If they're paying for themselves, it's between them and the hospital / health workers, not you.

a) I don't know how you extrapolated such a ridiculous argument. But if you're suggesting that it's wrong for the government to do a little projection and extrapolation of numbers (in order to better understand what kind of financial position they'll be in the future), then it's a good thing that you're not in charge of things.

b) If only money were the entire crux of the issue here. But it never is, and that's why as long as you keep framing issues as just been a market problem, you'll be wrong.
 

JayDubya

Banned
Zaptruder said:
a) I don't know how you extrapolated such a ridiculous argument.

You seem to think that the government should micromanage people's lives to the extent that rather than simply taxing the sale of goods or the receiving of income, there is an obligation to maximize that income beyond simple self-interest.

b) If only money were the entire crux of the issue here. But it never is, and that's why as long as you keep framing issues as just been a market problem, you'll be wrong.

The absurdist warning labels and extreme pigovian taxes being levied aren't aimed at controlling a market?
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
Zaptruder said:
With reference to my 'dredge of the scum barrel' comment, it was somewhat joking, but more directed towards people that defend smoking (rather than smokers themselves)... who tend to fall into 2 categories; people who profit from smoking and people that smoke that try to reduce their cognitive dissonance* by reducing the perception of damage that they are inflicting on themselves through smoking... and end up defending/promoting a needless habit.

So what if the habit is needless? Most habits are needless as far as i can tell. People on this very board waste countless of hours of their life and thousands upon thousands of dollars on playing video games. So what? What about watching sports? Or picking up a pack of chocolate covered pretzels at the corner store on the way to work? All of these things mean nothing except to the person indulging in them.

ive a serious question for you Zaptruder, im not being facetious.. what was it that caused you to be so vehemently anti-smoking?
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Number 2 said:
So what if the habit is needless? Most habits are needless as far as i can tell. People on this very board waste countless of hours of their life and thousands upon thousands of dollars on playing video games. So what? What about watching sports? Or picking up a pack of chocolate covered pretzels at the corner store on the way to work? All of these things mean nothing except to the person indulging in them.

ive a serious question for you Zaptruder, im not being facetious.. what was it that caused you to be so vehemently anti-smoking?

Ignoring your absurdist line of argument of equating smoking to a bag of chocolate covered pretzels or playing video games...

The question should really be; What has caused me to appear to be so vehemently anti-smoking?

Because I'm responding with long posts to multiple people ragging on me for ragging on them, without backing down.

I'm certainly not running up to smokers and ripping the cigs out of their hands while yelling: "Smoking is wrong!"

I simply dislike the idea of justifying smoking for the purposes of making smokers feel better about their filthy habit, despite all the progress we've made on the subject matter.

Anyway, I'm done here. I don't particularly feel the need to justify myself more than I already have.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
Zaptruder said:
Ignoring your absurdist line of argument of equating smoking to a bag of chocolate covered pretzels or playing video games...
i was speaking of the needless of the two. They are not necessary to living. And besides junk food and sweets can lead to obesity. Video games.. well there is a general attitude that they contribute to sedentary lifestyle, are prone to making people more violent, and like cigarette smoking in the 80s, are up on the chopping block as far as taxes go.

The question should really be; What has caused me to appear to be so vehemently anti-smoking? Because I'm responding with long posts to multiple people ragging on me for ragging on them, without backing down.
And you are surprised that people are reacting to you because you were ragging on them?

I'm certainly not running up to smokers and ripping the cigs out of their hands while yelling: "Smoking is wrong!" I simply dislike the idea of justifying smoking for the purposes of making smokers feel better about their filthy habit, despite all the progress we've made on the subject matter.
You think any sane person that smokes in the last 40 years doesnt know the dangers of smoking? If anyone ever says they didnt know they are most likely lying. im just of the attitude that smoking is one of the very few things i enjoy in life. And if smoking causes the end of my life.. oh well. Thats one of the best things about life.. it ends finally.

Anyway, I'm done here. I don't particularly feel the need to justify myself more than I already have.
Okie.. thanks for answering my question though.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Number 2 said:
And you are surprised that people are reacting to you because you were ragging on them?

No. Although I did expect their to be one or two others from the anti-smoking team to give my rhetoric some backup :p
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Cigarettes have no value other than to poison. Your rhetoric has m vote. The world would be a better place and people would live longer, healthier laws if cigarettes didn't exist. Health Insurance premiums wouldn't be so jacked up either. Smoking = completely bad. Whatever can be done to prevent smoking to grow again is good by me. Put those labels all over packages like Canada. Those are sweet :)
 

whitehawk

Banned
The bigger warning labels are a great idea. Here's what we have in canada:

dumarier%20small.jpg


cigs.gif
 

Kastro

Banned
Zaptruder said:
Ignoring your absurdist line of argument of equating smoking to a bag of chocolate covered pretzels or playing video games...

The question should really be; What has caused me to appear to be so vehemently anti-smoking?

Because I'm responding with long posts to multiple people ragging on me for ragging on them, without backing down.

I'm certainly not running up to smokers and ripping the cigs out of their hands while yelling: "Smoking is wrong!"

I simply dislike the idea of justifying smoking for the purposes of making smokers feel better about their filthy habit, despite all the progress we've made on the subject matter.

Anyway, I'm done here. I don't particularly feel the need to justify myself more than I already have.

why are you so concerned about what other people do to their bodies? something tells me you're not as vehemently against shitty, greasy food.
 

Zeke

Member
AlteredBeast said:
Cigarettes have no value other than to poison. Your rhetoric has m vote. The world would be a better place and people would live longer, healthier laws if cigarettes didn't exist. Health Insurance premiums wouldn't be so jacked up either. Smoking = completely bad. Whatever can be done to prevent smoking to grow again is good by me. Put those labels all over packages like Canada. Those are sweet :)
hell yea then we can move on to booze and fast food! We'll start with putting bigger warning labels on all the packaging and putting more taxes on them. Forget 99 cent burgers with the new tax on it, it will be more like 5 dollar burger.
 

cntr

Banned
Acid08 said:
You really think people don't already know the dangers? REALLY?

*coughthepoorpoorshelteredkidscough*

Anyway, this has degenerated into gaming-side level of flame warring, I'll be on my way...
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
Zeke said:
hell yea then we can move on to booze and fast food! We'll start with putting bigger warning labels on all the packaging and putting more taxes on them. Forget 99 cent burgers with the new tax on it, it will be more like 5 dollar burger.

Forget trying to talk to the Carrie Nation Redux crowd like that. They are on a mission and immune to such things :lol
 
Zaptruder said:
Ignoring your absurdist line of argument of equating smoking to a bag of chocolate covered pretzels or playing video games...

The question should really be; What has caused me to appear to be so vehemently anti-smoking?

Because I'm responding with long posts to multiple people ragging on me for ragging on them, without backing down.

I'm certainly not running up to smokers and ripping the cigs out of their hands while yelling: "Smoking is wrong!"

I simply dislike the idea of justifying smoking for the purposes of making smokers feel better about their filthy habit, despite all the progress we've made on the subject matter.

Anyway, I'm done here. I don't particularly feel the need to justify myself more than I already have.

Truly, this is the response of someone who is butt-hurt, as he put it :lol

Listen, guy, stop claiming to have been "joking" or "not that serious" with your statements. You're only saying such because you're getting your ass gangraped by a group of people who you personally offended. Oh, and "nice" dodge on the question of why you're so anti-drug. Leave the "big" words and come back with some better arguments and a little more decency.
 

Walshicus

Member
SnakeswithLasers said:
And I bet at least one of the posters who is for this legislation is also in favor of legalizing pot.
You can be in favour of legalising cannibis while also being in favour of restricting what tobacco [and any future cannibis] companies are allowed to do.
 
Number 2 said:
lol @ all the holier-than-thou Puritans crying about how smoking stinks.
Well, it does stink, particularly if you're not accustomed to the smoke.

Every time my neighbor wafts second-hand smoke into my open window, I cheer for anti-smoking legislation.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
jiji said:
Well, it does stink, particularly if you're not accustomed to the smoke.

Every time my neighbor wafts second-hand smoke into my open window, I cheer for anti-smoking legislation.

Wow.. how close is your neighbor to your window?
 
It's a duplex, so... maybe about three yards, when she's in her backyard.

I'm not gonna say that she can't smoke in her own backyard, but it still drives me up the wall to be enjoying a summer evening and suddenly have my room choked with the stuff.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
jiji said:
It's a duplex, so... maybe about three yards, when she's in her backyard.

I'm not gonna say that she can't smoke in her own backyard, but it still drives me up the wall to be enjoying a summer evening and suddenly have my room choked with the stuff.

:lol Please tell me its not illegal where you live for her to smoke inside. In some places you cannot smoke inside a duplex or an apartment due to anti-smoking legislation.
 
i admit i've been on the cancer sticks for awhile but ... is the smoke really that bad? i mean i could understand not wanting to be in a restaurant or what have you next to somebody puffing away. but if you have qualms with being a few feet away from cigarette smoke you must have some sort of olfactory sensitivity or you're exaggerating.

if it really was that putrid and vile then virtually nobody would smoke.
 
Tyrone Slothrop said:
i admit i've been on the cancer sticks for awhile but ... is the smoke really that bad? i mean i could understand not wanting to be in a restaurant or what have you next to somebody puffing away. but if you have qualms with being a few feet away from cigarette smoke you must have some sort of olfactory sensitivity or you're exaggerating.

if it really was that putrid and vile then virtually nobody would smoke.

It is putrid and vile. It just happens to be extremely addictive which makes people willing to look past those facts. Smokers don't notice the smell because they're used to being covered in it.

The smell of it is really the least important issue, though.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
WickedAngel said:
It is putrid and vile. It just happens to be extremely addictive which makes people willing to look past those facts. Smokers don't notice the smell because they're used to being covered in it.

The smell of it is really the least important issue, though.

i didnt start smoking until late in life and before i started smoking the smell of cigarette smoke didnt bother me. The only time smoke had mildly annoyed me was cigar smoke because of how dense and strong some of it was. Still nothing that i ever cried about. Each person has different tolerances i suppose though.
 
Number 2 said:
i didnt start smoking until late in life and before i started smoking the smell of cigarette smoke didnt bother me. The only time smoke had mildly annoyed me was cigar smoke because of how dense and strong some of it was. Still nothing that i ever cried about. Each person has different tolerances i suppose though.

It doesn't matter when you started smoking; you started smoking and got used to being covered in the smell. It doesn't matter if you're 15 or 40; your sense of smell still adjusts.

AlteredBeast said:
I love the smell of Cigar and Pipe smoke. Cigarette smoke is the dreck of the tobacco world though.

Agreed.
 

Schrade

Member
Tyrone Slothrop said:
i admit i've been on the cancer sticks for awhile but ... is the smoke really that bad? i mean i could understand not wanting to be in a restaurant or what have you next to somebody puffing away. but if you have qualms with being a few feet away from cigarette smoke you must have some sort of olfactory sensitivity or you're exaggerating.

if it really was that putrid and vile then virtually nobody would smoke.
It can make me physically ill if I get just a tiny whiff. This happens driving to work (people near my car at stoplights with their windows open while smoking), this happens at work (when the breeze wafts through the warehouse's open door into our inner doors and someone is smoking outside) and also happens as I walk into stores (people outside in the parking or just outside the door smoking).

Many smokers don't understand this because their sense of smell to smoke has been deadened by being around it constantly. It's like they just don't realize how foul and invasive it is. It's so bad for me that I can get cigarette smell "flashbacks" throughout the day when I've smelled it just once. It's not very pleasant.

AlteredBeast said:
I love the smell of Cigar and Pipe smoke. Cigarette smoke is the dreck of the tobacco world though.
Cigar smoke is worse than cigarette smoke sometimes. It's really foul. Now pipe smoke, that I can handle. It's totally not as bad as cigar/cigarette smoke and actually can smell quite pleasant. Why is that? Why don't they use pipe tobacco in cigarettes?
 
As an aside, I haven't smoked in months because I don't have any money, but Zaptruder finally motivated me to pick up a pack yesterday!

So thanks, Zaptruder. Your religious anti-smoking idealism motivated me to smoke more. And they were the most delicious cigarettes I've ever tasted.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
WickedAngel said:
It doesn't matter when you started smoking; you started smoking and got used to being covered in the smell. It doesn't matter if you're 15 or 40; your sense of smell still adjusts.
i think you missed what i was saying.

Schrade said:
It can make me physically ill if I get just a tiny whiff. This happens driving to work (people near my car at stoplights with their windows open while smoking), this happens at work (when the breeze wafts through the warehouse's open door into our inner doors and someone is smoking outside) and also happens as I walk into stores (people outside in the parking or just outside the door smoking).
Wow.. like how physically ill? Throwing up bad? And do you live in a city or a more rural area?
 

Holepunch

Member
Is there any studies that support these cigarette restrictions actually reduce cigarette smoking? As far as we know this could just be adding allure to the forbidden fruit.

Besides, even if it did reduce sales, why is the government getting involved? I didn't read this whole thread but the argument has been brought up that a lot of things are bad for you. I don't like the idea of government getting into our daily lives telling us what we can and cannot do with our free will. We have personal responsibility people. We shouldn't rely on the government to tell us how to live our lives.

Rah-rah I hate Governement Rah-rah
 
Holepunch said:
Is there any studies that support these cigarette restrictions actually reduce cigarette smoking? As far as we know this could just be adding allure to the forbidden fruit.
There are plenty of studies, so many that the Cochrane Database (a review system that aggregates multiple studies to see any net effect, and thus, oftentimes arguably has the final say) has released multiple reviews on smoking cessation. Here's one of many.

And here's a nice timeline of recent history between tobacco companies and government intervention. Tobacco companies even did their own internal research that understandably was not released to the public. Until someone on the inside copied the stuff and dropped it off at a university.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
hockeypuck said:
There are plenty of studies, so many that the Cochrane Database (a review system that aggregates multiple studies to see any net effect, and thus, oftentimes arguably has the final say) has released multiple reviews on smoking cessation. Here's one of many.

BACKGROUND: The workplace has potential as a setting through which large groups of people can be reached to encourage smoking cessation. OBJECTIVES: To categorize workplace interventions for smoking cessation tested in controlled studies and to determine the extent to which they help workers to stop smoking or to reduce tobacco consumption. SEARCH STRATEGY: We searched the Cochrane Tobacco Addiction Group Specialized Register in October 2004, MEDLINE (1966 - October 2004), EMBASE (1985 - October 2004) and PsycINFO (to October 2004). We searched abstracts from international conferences on tobacco and we checked the bibliographies of identified studies and reviews for additional references. SELECTION CRITERIA: We categorized interventions into two groups: a) Interventions aimed at the individual to promote smoking cessation and b) interventions aimed at the workplace as a whole. We applied different inclusion criteria for the different types of study. For interventions aimed at helping individuals to stop smoking, we included only randomized controlled trials allocating individuals, workplaces or companies to intervention or control conditions. For studies of smoking restrictions and bans in the workplace, we also included controlled trials with baseline and post-intervention outcomes and interrupted times series studies. DATA COLLECTION AND ANALYSIS: Information relating to the characteristics and content of all kinds of interventions, participants, outcomes and methods of the study was abstracted by one author and checked by two others. Because of heterogeneity in the design and content of the included studies, we did not attempt formal meta-analysis, and evaluated the studies using qualitative narrative synthesis. MAIN RESULTS: Workplace interventions aimed at helping individuals to stop smoking included ten studies of group therapy, seven studies of individual counselling, nine studies of self-help materials and five studies of nicotine replacement therapy. The results were consistent with those found in other settings. Group programmes, individual counselling and nicotine replacement therapy increased cessation rates in comparison to no treatment or minimal intervention controls. Self-help materials were less effective.Workplace interventions aimed at the workforce as a whole included 14 studies of tobacco bans, two studies of social support, four studies of environmental support, five studies of incentives, and eight studies of comprehensive (multi-component) programmes. Tobacco bans decreased cigarette consumption during the working day but their effect on total consumption was less certain. We failed to detect an increase in quit rates from adding social and environmental support to these programmes. There was a lack of evidence that comprehensive programmes reduced the prevalence of smoking. Competitions and incentives increased attempts to stop smoking, though there was less evidence that they increased the rate of actual quitting. AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS: We found: 1. Strong evidence that interventions directed towards individual smokers increase the likelihood of quitting smoking. These include advice from a health professional, individual and group counselling and pharmacological treatment to overcome nicotine addiction. Self-help interventions are less effective. All these interventions are effective whether offered in the workplace or elsewhere. Although people taking up these interventions are more likely to stop, the absolute numbers who quit are low. 2. Limited evidence that participation in programmes can be increased by competitions and incentives organized by the employer. 3. Consistent evidence that workplace tobacco policies and bans can decrease cigarette consumption during the working day by smokers and exposure of non-smoking employees to environmental tobacco smoke at work, but conflicting evidence about whether they decrease prevalence of smoking or overall consumption of tobacco by smokers. 4. A lack of evidence that comprehensive approaches reduce the prevalence of smoking, despite the strong theoretical rationale for their use. 5. A lack of evidence about the cost-effectiveness of workplace programmes.
So basically.. when a workplace has a smoking ban, people tend to not smoke at work but keep smoking elsewhere?
 
Number 2 said:
So basically.. when a workplace has a smoking ban, people tend to not smoke at work but keep smoking elsewhere?
That evidence is conflicting, so some say yes, others say no. Better designed studies will need to be made.

But why didn't you bold the first and main conclusion?

"We found: 1. Strong evidence that interventions directed towards individual smokers increase the likelihood of quitting smoking."

Edit: I also included a graph on post #104 that showed smoking prevalence is overall trending downwards in the U.S., so something is working.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
hockeypuck said:
That evidence is conflicting, so some say yes, others say no. Better designed studies will need to be made.

But why didn't you bold the first and main conclusion?

Oh but i did.. it was just the part you didnt quote and the part i found most interesting of 1.

1. Strong evidence that interventions directed towards individual smokers increase the likelihood of quitting smoking. These include advice from a health professional, individual and group counselling and pharmacological treatment to overcome nicotine addiction. Self-help interventions are less effective. All these interventions are effective whether offered in the workplace or elsewhere. Although people taking up these interventions are more likely to stop, the absolute numbers who quit are low.

EDIT: i agree that something is working.. i myself quit smoking every couple months when i get flat ass broke and cant afford a pack.. so maybe its the crazy prices cigarettes are at now that is working.
 
Number 2 said:
Oh but i did.. it was just the part you didnt quote and the part i found most interesting of 1.
Which implies the addictive nature of cigarettes and thus argues that primary prevention is far more effective than secondary cessation, as shown by significant smoking prevalence charted by the Dept. of Human and Health Services.

Edit:
Number 2 said:
so maybe its the crazy prices cigarettes are at now that is working.
Probably the most effective but I still think workplace interventions and other cigarette restrictions shouldn't be discouraged, especially if (and hopefully) they are shown to be cost-effective.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
hockeypuck said:
Which implies the addictive nature of cigarettes and thus argues that primary prevention is far more effective than secondary cessation, as shown by significant smoking prevalence charted by the Dept. of Human and Health Services.

But why post that link when Holepunch asked about a study of the effectiveness of restrictions reducing smoking? i dont see anything that indicates the that restrictions reduce the rate of smoking. Although likelihood is thrown about in there, the study is indeterminate on the effectiveness of intervention programs in the workplace. The likelihood of someone not having an intervention quitting versus someone that gets help? And even then "the absolute numbers are low.".. doesnt really give me a whole lot of confidence of workplace restrictions stopping smoking. Well maybe it does in a roundabout way because they cant smoke at work because smoking is banned :lol

EDIT:
Manics said:
Can't wait until they ban trans fats, fried foods, chocolate bars, ice cream, chips and anything else those fucking fat unhealthy people can't stop eating. Fucking fat people.

And games too. They make fat people who murder! i wonder what the likelihood of those spree shooters also being an avid gamer is? Evil on a dvd those things.
 

Manics

Banned
Can't wait until they ban trans fats, fried foods, chocolate bars, ice cream, chips and anything else those fucking fat unhealthy people can't stop eating. Fucking fat people.
 
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