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2011 US Open Thread of Pushin' it to the Limit

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Diprosalic said:
well i'm a big fan and i watch every federer match. can't get enough of federer trashing but you're probably right most matches would be more entertaining. :)

i'm watching monfils now too.

I remember I almost grew to hate him when I could only watch one match as I only had one Eurosport channel and his matches were the most complete borefest :lol I love watching him play though. And I like him too. I still hate his 1st week matches on grand slams though!


Edit: No, that's just one of his many, many great shots. It was 5 minutes ago. Incredible stuff.
 
Monfils was also inches away from hitting a diving backhand winner ten feet behind the baseline.

Good win for Haas, winnable match against Monaco in the next round hopefully setting up a clash with Federer.
 
Ferrero takes the 4th set. These two guys have been playing for 4 hours. I want the veteran to win, but I have a feeling Monfils is going to take this last set.
 
MIMIC said:
Have you guys ever noticed how Federer is always on Djokovic's half of the draw and how Murray is on Nadal's half of the draw? A lot of people are screaming "fixed" and a lot of other people claim that THOSE people are nuts and it's just the luck of the draw.

So I took it upon myself to analyze 3 past eras with 4 guys of similar consistency (aka mostly grouped near the top of the ranks), compare them with THIS era (Federer-Nadal-Djokovic-Murray) and see how frequently the men are paired with each other ("paired" in this sense meaning whether they land on the same half of the draw together)

I'm not done analyzing the data, but here's a sneak peak:

McEnroe-Lendl-Connors-Wilander Era (1983-1985)
-number of times of a POTENTIAL "McEnroe-Connors" pairing: 7
-actual pairings: 4 times (57%)

-number of times of a POTENTIAL "Lendl-Wilander" pairing: 11 times
-actual pairings: 5 times (45%), with 3 consecutive pairings



Seems fair, right? They're both near 50% (as I've found with most of the previous era data) which reflects the supposedly 50/50 chance of being paired together. Now, here's where the fun starts:


Federer-Nadal-Djokovic-Murray Era (2008-present)
-number of times of a POTENTIAL "Nadal-Murray" pairing: 14 times
-actual pairings: 13 times (93%), with a PRESENT streak of 8 consecutive times

-number of times of a POTENTIAL "Federer-Murray" pairing: 12 times
-actual pairings: 1 time (8%)

-number of times of a POTENTIAL "Federer-Djokovic" pairing: 15 times
-actual pairing: 13 times (87%), with 7 consecutive pairings

Yeah....ummm....
I do not follow tennis very regulary, but I always though the number one ranked player meets the forth ranked player in the semi finals, and 2 and 3 meets in the other one. And since federer and nadal has almost always been ranked one and two, they never met in the semi finals. Don't know how they are seeded now, and how that relates to what I have written...
 
Ristlager said:
I do not follow tennis very regulary, but I always though the number one ranked player meets the forth ranked player in the semi finals, and 2 and 3 meets in the other one. And since federer and nadal has almost always been ranked one and two, they never met in the semi finals. Don't know how they are seeded now, and how that relates to what I have written...

Nah. When it comes to seeding rules, the only rule is that 1 can't meet 2, 3 can't meet 4, 5 can't meet 6, and so forth.....all the way to 32. So the No. 1 seed can meet anyone other than the No. 2 seed in the semi-finals (such as possibly the 3rd seed, 4th seed, 5th seed, etc.) Example:

2008 Australian Open: No. 1 seed Federer met No. 3 seed Djokovic in the semi-finals.

and then....

2009 U.S. Open: No. 1 seed Federer met No. 4 seed Djokovic in the semi-finals. The only time it would be impossible for them to meet would be if they were ranked 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, etc.

I'm glad that you commented about this because I've since found some OTHER suspicious draw behavior. Will post it in a few.
 
For anyone who bothers to read this, lol. I posted this on another forum.

Fans have voiced complaints about how regularly Federer & Djokovic land on the same half, as well as how often Nadal and Murray land on the same half. And for good reason. I analyzed 3 other eras and not a single one displayed the glaring irregularities that we have come to expect in the Federer-Djokovic-Nadal-Murray era.

So did this happen in the past? I wanted to find out. My method was simple: try and find 3 other eras that were similar in nature to the current "Big 4" era. And those similarities included 1) an era with 4 CONSISTENT players, 2) they had to maintain that consistency simultaneously for at least a few years, and 3) they had to be seeded near the top of the rankings (No. 1 - 5, for example) more often than not.

It was a little difficult trying to pin down a group of 4 players that closely mirrored today's top guys but I found 3:

1. McEnroe-Lendl-Connors-Wilander ERA (1983-1985)
2. Endberg-Becker-Lendl-Agassi ERA (1988-1991)
3. Edberg-Courier-Becker-Sampras ERA (1991-1994)


....and they would be compared to:

4. Federer-Nadal-Djokovic-Murray ERA (2008-present)

Fortunately, there was a lot of behavior in these eras that had characteristics similar to that of today's era, such as top guys that seemed to ALWAYS be seeded 1st and 2nd (a la Federer and Nadal) and guys that came in and crashed the party (a la Djokovic), etc. So theoretically, the draw based on the seeding would behave similarly, right? Right? :)

Well, here are the stats for the first era:

KEY:
1) number of times it was possible to be paired on the same side of the draw (not being seeded 1st and 2nd, 3rd and 4th, etc.)
2) number of times they were actually paired

McEnroe-Lendl-Connors-Wilander ERA (1983-1985)

MCENROE-LENDL
1) 2 times
2) 1 time (50%)

MCENROE-CONNORS
1) 7 times
2) 4 times (57%), 2 consecutive times

MCENROE-WILANDER
1) 11 times
2) 7 times (63%), 3 consecutive times

LENDL-CONNORS
1) 9 times
2) 4 times (44%), 2 consecutive times

LENDL-WILANDER
1) 11 times
2) 5 times (45%), 3 consecutive times

CONNORS-WILANDER
1) 3 times
2) 0 times

Nothing jumps out. Seems that the 50/50 draw was in full effect here. And it's perfectly reasonable for Connors and Wilander to have not drawn each other out of a mere 3 times of potentially being paired.

Also, there are no ridiculously high numbers when it comes to consecutive times of being paired (we'll revisit this later, lol)

On to the next era:

Endberg-Becker-Lendl-Agassi ERA (1988-1991)

EDBERG-BECKER
1) 6 times
2) 3 times (50%), 0 consecutive times

EDBERG-LENDL
1) 10 times
2) 6 times (60%), 3 consecutive times

EDBERG-AGASSI
1) 7 times
2) 2 times (29%), 2 consecutive times

BECKER-LENDL
1) 6 times
2) 2 times (33%), 0 consecutive times

BECKER-AGASSI
1) 8 times
2) 4 times (50%), 4 consecutive times

LENDL-AGASSI
1) 5 times
2) 4 times (80%), 3 consecutive times

At first glance, because of the high standard set by the first era, the Lendl-Agassi pairing looks suspicious. Their number of potential pairings is relatively low at 5 because Agassi didn't play the Australian Open and Wimbledon at times, as well as Lendl missing some. 4 out of 5 times COULD be seen as high but honestly, a pool of 5 isn't that big.

Next:

Edberg-Courier-Becker-Sampras ERA

EDBERG-COURIER
1) 6 times
2) 3 times (50%), 2 consecutive times

EDBERG-BECKER
1) 5 times
2) 2 times (40%), 0 consecutive times

EDBERG-SAMPRAS
1) 10 times
2) 6 times (60%), 2 consecutive times

COURIER-BECKER
1) 9 times
2) 5 times (56%), 2 consecutive times

COURLER-SAMPRAS
1) 9 times
2) 6 times (67%), 4 consecutive times

BECKER-SAMPRAS
1) 8 times
2) 2 times (25%), 0 consecutive times

Not much to see here. The Becker-Sampras pairing might be a little low given its potential pairing of 8, but since the OTHER pairings are pretty equal, it's probably safe to assume that this is just one of those statistical anomalies (assuming you think 25% even merits attention at all).

Now here's where the fun begins

Federer-Nadal-Djokovic-Murray ERA (2008-present)

FEDERER-NADAL
1) 3 times
2) 0 times

FEDERER-DJOKOVIC
1) 15 times
2) 13 times (87%), 7 consecutive times

FEDERER-MURRAY
1) 12 times
2) 1 time (8%)

NADAL DJOKOVIC
1) 11 times
2) 2 times (18%), 0 consecutive times

NADAL-MURRAY
1) 14 times
2) 13 times (93%), 8 consecutive times *PRESENT STREAK*

DJOKOVIC-MURRAY
1) 9 times
2) 1 time (11%)

Where do you even begin with something so ridiculous and unprecedented? Either the percentage is under 20% or over 85%...in every single pairing! (if you exclude Federer-Nadal).

And 8 consecutive, on-going pairings between Nadal and Murray? wtf The highest in the other era was 4 and Nadal-Murray has doubled that and likely to continue. And if it weren't for the 2010 French Open, Djokovic and Federer would be on a current streak of 12! @_@

And if these numbers are any indication, expect to NEVER see a Federer-Nadal semi-final in a slam (as long as they stay relevant).

Given all this data and how they bare NO resemblance to past draws, I think it's fair to suggest that the slam draws these days are rigged.

Also, if anyone wants to see all of the seeding data (or just look at it to make any corrections), you can download it here: http://www.mediafire.com/?x1j2ngft97j3l4c




AND




********************************

I hypothesized that when Djokovic and Murray were nobodies (and before the Federer-Nadal rivalry became what it is today) that their pairings were SUBSTANTIALLY more balanced. And I was fucking right:

This is BEFORE Djokovic became relevant (and before the present Federer-Nadal rivalry):

Federer-Nadal-Djokovic-Murray pre-ERA (2005-2007)

FEDERER-NADAL
1) 3 times
2) 1 time (33%)

FEDERER-DJOKOVIC
1) 12 times
2) 5 times (42%), 2 consecutive times

FEDERER-MURRAY
1) 8 times
2) 5 time (63%), 2 consecutive times

NADAL DJOKOVIC
1) 11 times
2) 6 times (55%), 3 consecutive times

NADAL-MURRAY
1) 7 times
2) 3 times (43%), 0 consecutive times

DJOKOVIC-MURRAY
1) 8 times
2) 3 time (38%), 3 consecutive times


TL;DR version: Shit is fixed.
 
Sports are a form of entertainment. People want to see the best players compete against each other.

As long as the matches themselves aren't rigged, I don't really care who they schedule to play.
 
Smellycat said:
Wonderful work MIMIC, and it is clear that the current draws are rigged for potential Federer Nadal finals.
The thing is though, no-one cares.

They want the Fed-Nadal final. I cant blame them either.
 
MIMIC said:


TL;DR version: Shit is fixed.


Here is a different spin on it. If you look at the draws from a seedings point of view, you get:

1-3 & 2-4: 8 times
1-4 & 2-3: 8 times

(I hope I've not miscounted)

So there's a completely even split in terms of semifinal draws -- which is what you'd expect. The one issue that clouds your numbers, is that seedings have switched quite a bit between players in the past few years. From 2008-2011:

Federer: #1 7x, #2 6x, #3 3x
Nadal: #1 8x, #2 7x, #3 1x
Djokovic: #1 1x, #2 2x, #3 10x, #4 3x
Murray #2 1x, #3 2x, #4 7x, >#4 6x

For instance, in Wimbledon 2010 Federer (1) was scheduled to play Djokovic (3), while they were also scheduled to play the US OPen 2010, but this time Federer was 2nd seed. So while it all looks very suspicious, it can be just a case of chance. Based on the semifinals matchups alone, there is really no reason to think otherwise.
 
KajunW said:
Here is a different spin on it. If you look at the draws from a seedings point of view, you get:

1-3 & 2-4: 8 times
1-4 & 2-3: 8 times

(I hope I've not miscounted)

So there's a completely even split in terms of semifinal draws -- which is what you'd expect. The one issue that clouds your numbers, is that seedings have switched quite a bit between players in the past few years. From 2008-2011:

Federer: #1 8x, #2 5x, #3 3x
Nadal: #1 8x, #2 7x, #3 1x
Djokovic: #1 1x, #2 2x, #3 10x, #4 3x
Murray #2 1x, #3 2x, #4 7x, >#4 6x

For instance, in Wimbledon 2010 Federer (1) was scheduled to play Djokovic (3), while they were also scheduled to play the US OPen 2010, but this time Federer was 2nd seed. So while it all looks very suspicious, it can be just a case of chance. Based on the semifinals matchups alone, there is really no reason to think otherwise.

Well that's the basis of my theory: you have to ignore the NUMBER and look at the NAME.

I took this very question into account and came up with this hypothetical scenario:

1 Federer 3 Djokovic
2 Federer 3 Djokovic
1 Federer 4 Djokovic
1 Federer 3 Djokovic
1 Djokovic 4 Federer
1 Djokovic 3 Federer
3 Federer 2 Djokovic
2 Federer 4 Djokovic
1 Djokovic 4 Djokovic
3 Federer 1 Djokovic
1 Federer 3 Djokovic
1 Federer 4 Djokovic
2 Djokovic 4 Djokovic
2 Federer 3 Djokovic
2 Federer 4 Djokovic
2 Federer 4 Djokovic
1 Djokovic 3 Federer
2 Djokovic 3 Federer
1 Federer 3 Djokovic
1 Federer 4 Djokovic
2 Djokovic 3 Federer


In this scenario, Federer and Djokovic are on the same side of the draw 21 straight times, 100% of the time.

But if you only look at the seeds:

1 can meet 3 or 4
-meeting 3: 7 times (58%)
-meeting 4: 5 times (42%)

2 can meet 3 or 4
-meeting 3: 5 times (55%)
-meeting 4: 4 times (445)

and so forth.

Seeds: balanced.
Names (attached to the seeds): absurd

So while the seed pairings seem to be balanced, the number of times the NAMES were paired on the same side of the draw is lopsided as fuck.

The fact that ranks/seeds of Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray all fluctuated allows for the rigging to be obscured if you look at it purely from a seed standpoint. But the crux of my argument is that the NAMES are the important factor. That's why I analyzed the pairings of previous eras. McEnroe, Lendl, Connors, and Wilander all fluctuated in the rankings as well and both the seeds AND the names were balanced.
 
Well I'm looking forward to actually being able to see my first Grand Slam triple bagel live.


You gotta root for it.
 
I always thought it was 1 meets 3 and 2 meets 4. But it is really weird how Nadal and Federer are NEVER on the same half. If they think they're going to get another Wimbledon final they're sorely mistaken imo.

Djokovic is annihilating this guy, I feel bad for him. but he's playing my favorite player:(
 
Jay Sosa said:
You guys are the most negative and depressing bunch ever...geez

Are we supposed to root for this pathetic, ineffectual player? How many guys are sitting at home because this clown made it into the tournament?
 
You know Djoker is feeling himself when he hits a successful tweener. ^_^

If this match wasn't a message to the rest of the field, I don't know what is.
 
MIMIC said:
You know Djoker is feeling himself when he hits a successful tweener. ^_^

If this match wasn't a message to the rest of the field, I don't know what is.

Meh, every time Fed did a successful tweener at a GS, he lost. Just sayin'.
 
zero_suit said:
Meh, every time Fed did a successful tweener at a GS, he lost. Just sayin'.

Djokovic hit a tweener against Federer back in 2008 at the Australian Open and eventually won the tournament :)

but Djokovic lost that particular point, lol
 
Speevy said:
Are we supposed to root for this pathetic, ineffectual player? How many guys are sitting at home because this clown made it into the tournament?
The other people sitting at home couldn't qin in the qualies nor could they win a first round match. Berlocq's spot is earned like it or not.
 
how long was the djokovic match? i went to bed thinking that it would be a trashing anyway but that must have been epic.

edit: if the USO stats are correct he did it in 90 minutes, federer was 13 minutes faster lol.
 
Anyone watching the Wawrinka / Young match? Great tennis so far, I'd love to see Young keep this one competitive throughout. It's at 5/5 in the first set so far.

I'm also excited to see how Jack Sock will do against Andy Roddick today. Out with the old, in with the new?

EDIT: Young just won the first set in a tie-break! Great match so far.
 
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