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24 years later, which console is powerful graphically--Genesis or SNES?

Same for PS3 and Xbox360.

No.

X1 - PS4 = near identical architecture

360 - PS3 = totally alien architectures

You cannot say which one is more powerful because they excel in their own different way. Multiplats, in that instance, are a poor barometer as you are shoehorning a game into a "best fit" situation for each platform. In the end, neither will acquit themselves as well as they could when engineered to their strengths.
 
How many of those shadow cast lights overlapped? How many were in a single visible view? Probably 1 or 2 at most.
its been years since I have played kz2 but are you sure about this one ? I think there were more than 1 or 2 light sources visible
Also, Quincunx AA is not exactly a technical achievement, given its performance sapping nature and questionable quality. Deferred renderer or not.
how many games in 2009 were using deferred shading and MSAA at the same time? honest question
oh and I m still waiting for your Killzone shadow Fall vs Crysis 3 analysis
 
its been years since I have played kz2 but are you sure about this one ? I think there were more than 1 or 2 light sources visible

how many games in 2009 were using deferred shading and MSAA? honest question
oh and I m still waiting for your Killzone shadow Fall vs Crysis 3 analysis

OH MY GOD WHY REMIND ME OF MY FAILURES. :D

You can see tons of light sources in Kz2 (as you should be able to given their engine design), but the amount of shadow casting light sources per scene will be very low. Probably 1 to 2 at most (1 for the sun or some local source, and then probably one for the muzzleflash which KZ2 did quite well).

In terms of 2009 fully deferred engine games that used MSAA... definitely not many at all. Alan Wake? The problem with the QAA in KZ2, is that its coverage is really poor and the sample pattern lead to that intense blur whilst still eaving lots of aliasing. MSAA with deferred is cool, but only if it is done well (BF4 has horrible MSAA for example, while Crysis 3 has incredibly well done MSAA).
 
OH MY GOD WHY REMIND ME OF MY FAILURES. :D

You can see tons of light sources in Kz2 (as you should be able to given their engine design), but the amount of shadow casting light sources per scene will be very low. Probably 1 to 2 at most (1 for the sun or some local source, and then probably one for the muzzleflash which KZ2 did quite well).

Even to this day you rarely see more than 2-3 shadows cast by light sources.
 
Depends on whichgame you are playing. The metro games or the Crysis games on PC can have like 10 or more shadow casting lights per visible view... easily.

Oh sorry, I was thinking say a person is standing in a room and you see a shadow from one light source and another from a different lights source cast by the person.
 
I see a lot of people arguing about multiplat games in general looking better on 360, but I'm not seeing any actual proof. Where are the pics?

Allow me to relate my direct experiences in this matter, those are the games I had a chance to play on both consoles:

FF XIII - Looked ABSURDLY better on PS3, the difference of resolution between the two consoles is disgusting.

Mass Effect 2 - Looked the same graphically, the only small difference I felt was a slightly lower framerate (irrelevant, since the discussion here is "graphics").

Crysis 2 - Looked the same too, framerate felt just as bad as the 360 version.

Marvel vs Capcom 3 - pretty much the same thing on both consoles.


Then I got a PC upgrade and started playing multiplat games only there, but I still got the chance to try two games that used UE3 on PS3, never tried them on 360 though, so I don't know if they run differently:

Mortal Kombat had some weird particle effects, they looked very pixelated.

Bioshock 2 took years to start because of a mandatory hdd installation, when I finally got to play, looked like it was running on 320x240, but it wasn't even nostalgic, just disturbing. I had better things to play.
 
I see a lot of people arguing about multiplat games in general looking better on 360, but I'm not seeing any actual proof. Where are the pics?

Allow me to relate my direct experiences in this matter, those are the games I had a chance to play on both consoles:

FF XIII - Looked ABSURDLY better on PS3, the difference of resolution between the two consoles is disgusting.

Mass Effect 2 - Looked the same graphically, the only small difference I felt was a slightly lower framerate (irrelevant, since the discussion here is "graphics").

Crysis 2 - Looked the same too, framerate felt just as bad as the 360 version.

Marvel vs Capcom 3 - pretty much the same thing on both consoles.


Then I got a PC upgrade and started playing multiplat games only there, but I still got the chance to try two games that used UE3 on PS3, never tried them on 360 though, so I don't know if they run differently:

Mortal Kombat had some weird particle effects, they looked very pixelated.

Bioshock 2 took years to start because of a mandatory hdd installation, when I finally got to play, looked like it was running on 320x240, but it wasn't even nostalgic, just disturbing. I had better things to play.

Red Dead Redemption, many sports games, countless amount of games from the 2006- 2010 era. After that point, more engines started taking advantage of the SPus to off load some rendering functions.. giving the PS3 a more on par look.
 
I think it's just the past couple of years PS3 caught up to the 360, but even then there were small differences usually going the 360's way.
 
I think it's just the past couple of years PS3 caught up to the 360, but even then there were small differences usually going the 360's way.
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The PS4 by a fair margin. it's also the easier of the two to program for.

PS4, yeah. More powerful GPU + faster VRAM. I struck me that it's really the first time I can confidently say that about a PlayStation home console. To me, it's always been N64 > PS1, XB1 > GC > PS2, 360 <> PS3 > Wii, PS4 > XBO > Wii U. I was sort of expecting Microsoft to come out on top this time, but Sony made some smart/bold choices with their design and it paid off.
 
I

Mass Effect 2 - Looked the same graphically, the only small difference I felt was a slightly lower framerate (irrelevant, since the discussion here is "graphics").

let's extend this :
my slideshow 1fps game have double resolution ... it's better graphic but unplayable...it doesn't matter we speak only graphic...
it stays games
not having at least 30fps is a bad thing....and maybe one reason why nd games shine more than games with 30 lock and rock solid fps :)
 
Each had their strengths and weaknesses, in different areas, usually.

"Power" is far too simple a word to describe what you mean. Just as it was 8 years ago, or 18 years ago or 28 years ago.

Video games are a mix of hardware AND software, art AND code.

Everything is more complicated than you think it is.
 
I see a lot of people arguing about multiplat games in general looking better on 360, but I'm not seeing any actual proof. Where are the pics?

Allow me to relate my direct experiences in this matter, those are the games I had a chance to play on both consoles:

FF XIII - Looked ABSURDLY better on PS3, the difference of resolution between the two consoles is disgusting.

Mass Effect 2 - Looked the same graphically, the only small difference I felt was a slightly lower framerate (irrelevant, since the discussion here is "graphics").

Crysis 2 - Looked the same too, framerate felt just as bad as the 360 version.

Marvel vs Capcom 3 - pretty much the same thing on both consoles.


Then I got a PC upgrade and started playing multiplat games only there, but I still got the chance to try two games that used UE3 on PS3, never tried them on 360 though, so I don't know if they run differently:

Mortal Kombat had some weird particle effects, they looked very pixelated.

Bioshock 2 took years to start because of a mandatory hdd installation, when I finally got to play, looked like it was running on 320x240, but it wasn't even nostalgic, just disturbing. I had better things to play.
Yeah, really PS3 ports really depended on how much work the developer is willing to put in to optimize it.
Saints Row: The Third ran absurdly better than the 360 version, where v-sync was basically locked on in the ps3 version and ran at a stable 30 fps, where the 360 version had the option to turn it on but it ran horribly with it. Also the lighting and model quality was better on PS3. I would get pictures but I'm on my phone right now (I think there's a DF article about it).
Then Saints Row IV came and was sub-hd and ran worse than the 360 version. Lol.
 
Each had their strengths and weaknesses, in different areas, usually.

"Power" is far too simple a word to describe what you mean. Just as it was 8 year ago, or 18 years ago.

Everything is more complicated than you think it is.
He asked to support your claim with direct screens. What definition of "power " do you think he was referring to?

chloe-o.gif

Lmao needed an excuse to use this
 
let's extend this :
my slideshow 1fps game have double resolution ... it's better graphic but unplayable...it doesn't matter we speak only graphic...
it stays games
not having at least 30fps is a bad thing....and maybe one reason why nd games shine more than games with 30 lock and rock solid fps :)

It was not a big difference, I felt a bit more of frame drops during the action sequences, but since you teased me I actually got to search a bit:

Digital foundry analysis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBlCNVShLzc

Seems like my framerate problem was a case of bad luck, probably a problem with the disc or HDD (that was always so damn slow), since Digital Foundry experience differs a bit from mine. The game seems to be running more consistently on PS3 some times, and looking side by side, the 360 textures on the characters look a little bit better, specially the details on Sheppard's face.

Edit:
Ok, at the very last part of the video, the framerate seems to be dropping more on PS3, even though the drops are relatively small (2~4frames), during the shooting sequence, like what happened to me.
 
The irony of this thread is that even though Cell gave them the edge, if they'd taken the money they spent on Cell R&D and per unit cost and spent it on the GPU instead, they might well have been able to get an 8800 variant, and then PS3 would have been more straightforward to work with and the difference between PS3 and 360 would have been absolutely huge.
 
The irony of this thread is that even though Cell gave them the edge, if they'd taken the money they spent on Cell R&D and per unit cost and spent it on the GPU instead, they might well have been able to get an 8800 variant, and then PS3 would have been more straightforward to work with and the difference between PS3 and 360 would have been absolutely huge.

The problem there was that NVIDIA massively overpromised and underdelivered on what the RSX could do.

Microsoft, having been burned by nvidia with the OG Xbox went with a different company and didn't have this problem.

You'll notice that none of the big three went with NVIDIA this time despite how dominant they are in the PC gpu space. This isn't an accident.
 
The irony of this thread is that even though Cell gave them the edge, if they'd taken the money they spent on Cell R&D and per unit cost and spent it on the GPU instead, they might well have been able to get an 8800 variant, and then PS3 would have been more straightforward to work with and the difference between PS3 and 360 would have been absolutely huge.
Yeah, I think they've learned that lesson.
 
PS3. It had more games that impressed me the most and all of them were from their first party studios (Surprise surprise) and this is coming from a guy who's main console of choice was 360.
 
The problem there was that NVIDIA massively overpromised and underdelivered on what the RSX could do.

Microsoft, having been burned by nvidia with the OG Xbox went with a different company and didn't have this problem.

You'll notice that none of the big three went with NVIDIA this time despite how dominant they are in the PC gpu space. This isn't an accident.

Not this old chestnut again. Sony knew exactly what they were buying. They're not idiots. They might have been stiffed by nVidia on contractual stuff but it was nothing to do with nVidia overpromising.

The problem is that Sony had no money left to give nVidia. They'd spent everything on Cell, assuming that they could pair it with a weak GPU (a la GS in PS2) and they'd be fine.

They realised very late in the day that this setup wouldn't cut the mustard, so they had to go to nVidia, and with their time and budget constraints all they could afford was an off-the-shelf part.

What I'm saying is that if they'd not farted around with Cell for however long, and spent so much money on it (of course, they had other ambitions with Cell), they probably could have gone to nVidia (or ATi) much earlier, with much more money, and gotten a part that was a year more mature than the 360.

The reason, incidentally, why neither Sony or MS are going with nVidia this time around is because AMDs APUs give them much more bang for their buck and are easier to cut costs with further down the line.
 
The irony of this thread is that even though Cell gave them the edge, if they'd taken the money they spent on Cell R&D and per unit cost and spent it on the GPU instead, they might well have been able to get an 8800 variant, and then PS3 would have been more straightforward to work with and the difference between PS3 and 360 would have been absolutely huge.
Launching a year later with a $200 higher price, and still loosing much more money per unit sold shows you how inept were Sony when developing it's console; even if they had stuck with DVDs; they still would have lost more money per unit sold. I don't know what stream of REALLY bad decisions led them to build the PS3, but it wasn't pretty.

Xbox 360 was not that much better though; if you bought one near launch, then you knew it would fail at some point, basically a time bomb.

My read of it all is that the PS2 generation should have lasted at least a year longer, but since the original Xbox had a big momentum with Halo and Halo 2, and the whole online thing; Microsoft rushed their next console and forced Sony's hand. It worked for them, and Sony was found with their pants down, to put it elegantly.
 
Beyond, The Last of Us, and even Uncharted 2 and 3 are just way above what the 360 can handle.

But GTA V looked pretty damn great for a multiplat game on 360.
 
He asked to support your claim with direct screens. What definition of "power " do you think he was referring to?

chloe-o.gif

Lmao needed an excuse to use this

Your post, and those like it, are very nearly almost precisely and completely what I am referring to.

Well done for using that rather lame gif, I suppose!
 
What developers have been able to squeeze from the 360, and PS3 is incredible. When I think of games like TLOU, and The Halo series, it makes me really excited for what's in store for us over the next 5 years or so. I don't think the graphics are going to be where we see our biggest leaps this gen. It's going to be in areas like story. Immersion. Mechanics. As far as this last gen is concerned I give PS3 the edge but my experience with the 360 console is very limited.
 
Beyond, The Last of Us, and even Uncharted 2 and 3 are just way above what the 360 can handle.

But GTA V looked pretty damn great for a multiplat game on 360.

IMO, if you put a lot of the SPU effects on the 360 GPU, it could and would do things of similar quality.

I mean, many effects in the ND games are baked into the environmental textures or just done by hand placed probes or animation playbacks. Hard to imagine how that would be hard to do on a 360... just a matter of time.
 
Beyond, The Last of Us, and even Uncharted 2 and 3 are just way above what the 360 can handle.

But GTA V looked pretty damn great for a multiplat game on 360.

What do you base this on? Curious to know because everything done in those games technologically can be achieved on the 360 and was surpassed by multiplatform games.
 
To me it was Ps3. But to be honest having both consoles I can tell you that these systems are so close that this is all not even worth talking about.
 
PS4 = better multiplats so it is more powerful.

X360 = better multiplats so it is more powerful.

Rather:

PS4: better looking exclusives, so more powerful
PS3: better looking exclusives, so more powerful

Yeah, sure, PS4 has better looking multiplats too, but they tend to be less optimised for the hardware than exclusives.
 
No.

X1 - PS4 = near identical architecture

360 - PS3 = totally alien architectures

You cannot say which one is more powerful because they excel in their own different way. Multiplats, in that instance, are a poor barometer as you are shoehorning a game into a "best fit" situation for each platform. In the end, neither will acquit themselves as well as they could when engineered to their strengths.

The question, "Which is more powerful?" is actually the question, "Which console produced the best graphics?"
 
Oh sorry, I was thinking say a person is standing in a room and you see a shadow from one light source and another from a different lights source cast by the person.

Yeah, its pretty hard problem to solve, because of shadow gradients and occlusion of shadow maps.

I've done some tests in C2 months ago
http://i1.minus.com/iNcVAdTwRbJeQ.png
http://i6.minus.com/iqIzFSXVFBSVf.png

From what i've seen they improved shadow map overlap in Ryse's version of engine.
Crysis 3 had some 3 lights overlapping [You cant move lights like in C2 unfortunately], but i dont think i shots for that, it was better than C2, but still not optimal.
 
I see a lot of people arguing about multiplat games in general looking better on 360, but I'm not seeing any actual proof. Where are the pics?

Allow me to relate my direct experiences in this matter, those are the games I had a chance to play on both consoles:

Mass Effect 2 - Looked the same graphically, the only small difference I felt was a slightly lower framerate (irrelevant, since the discussion here is "graphics").

The problem in Mass Effect 2 was "graphics" based. The PS3 version is weak at dealing with transparent alpha effects in direct comparison with the 360, and Mass Effect 2's atmospherics can smother the entire screen with alpha, sapping performance.

Crysis 2 - Looked the same too, framerate felt just as bad as the 360 version.

Crysis 2 runs at 1152x720 resolution on the 360, PS3 operates at 1024x720. Both had inconsistent problems though.

Marvel vs Capcom 3 - pretty much the same thing on both consoles.

Pretty even, you're right there. However, if you're a hardcore/pro fighter you want the 360 version, especially in tag-team. The PS3 version's timing is off due to frame drops.

Then I got a PC upgrade and started playing multiplat games only there, but I still got the chance to try two games that used UE3 on PS3, never tried them on 360 though, so I don't know if they run differently:

Mortal Kombat had some weird particle effects, they looked very pixelated.

Very close visually, the texture work on Reptile looks very odd on PS3.

Texture filtering is better on the 360, sporting higher levels of anisotropic filtering (AF), whilst the alpha buffers - smoke, fire and so on - are rendered in quarter resolution on the PS3 . As you mentioned, only some effects are filtered so you get those "pixelated effects" you mentioned.

Other projectile effects/specials feature a lighter upscale on the PS3, thus looking almost identical to the ones on the 360. There is also a difference in the way lighting is handled across both formats. The intensity of the lighting given off by certain special moves is noticeably lower on the PS3. It almost looks as if projectile attacks aren't bespoke light sources, when they in fact are.


Bioshock 2 took years to start because of a mandatory hdd installation, when I finally got to play, looked like it was running on 320x240, but it wasn't even nostalgic, just disturbing. I had better things to play.

Again, on the PS3, transparent alpha textures cause some problems and there are graphics "glitches" due to this. They attempted to go the Killzone route where they render at like a quarter resolution vs the 360s higher res render allowed by its RAM (Killzone 2 does this(not sure about 3)), which results in some funky stuff.

Some "technical" stuffs.

The question, "Which is more powerful?" is actually the question, "Which console produced the best graphics?"

Yeah, but are we talking technically, or just "I think this looks better". A game can have great lighting or great textures or great animations, and not be doing nearly the level of system stressing things of a less visually pleasing game.

The question is "most POWERFUL graphically" not "game with prettiest artwork/scenery".

PS3 has better looking games. Hence, being more powerful.

This instantly tells those who understand all the things going on in games today, that a person has no clue when it comes to understanding the subject at hand.
 
I don't see how anyone can argue in favour of PS3 for most multiplats.

360 was technically more proficient in almost every case.

I will agree that some of PS3's exclusives pulled off better visuals, but that's what 5 or 6 games at most?
 
Xbox 360 and PS3 are hard to compare. There's no definitive answer to "most powerful graphically".

Xbox 360 had a solid GPU and "good-enough" CPU. Other developers probably have a different experience but it took us until our last game of the gen before we really felt like we were squeezing for CPU power. If there was a major weakness to the 360 it was the size of EDRAM.

PS3 had a mediocre GPU, a mediocre main CPU core, and the split memory was a bad decision. The only good thing about PS3 relative to the 360 were the SPUs, but it's really difficult to get across why SPU programming is annoying and challenging. I think people just kind of hear "SPUs are hard" and don't really get what people mean by that... but it doesn't matter for this specific thread. Again it wasn't really til our last game of the generation that we felt that we had finally gotten enough running on SPU to out-do 360, and it wasn't like our previous games used SPU lightly.

So for "graphical power", which console comes out ahead is not always clear. If your render targets fit into EDRAM, from what I've seen the 360's GPU will smoke the PS3's every time. Part of this deficit is software, but still the 360 hardware wins hands down. I've seen people claim it's "not that different" but I've spent half the console generation trying to get PS3 to catch up to 360 so I can't understand where they are coming from.

So the question becomes... to what extent can the SPUs help PS3 make up the slack? SPUs, as it turns out, are very very good at a small specific subset of things and less good at most other things. Some of the places SPUs excel are with highly parallel tasks and streamable tasks. These happen to be a good fit for vertex and post-processing work.

In most games I have knowledge of, large portions of the SPU are dedicated to assisting the GPU. Whereas you generally don't need to do much of this on 360 at all because the GPU can handle itself. Even with all the GPU assist, PS3 still often comes out behind, but there's so much raw power in the SPUs that some work can be done in higher quality than would be reasonable on the 360.

If you're going over EDRAM limits with your render target, the PS3 might pull closer. I haven't played with this much so I'm not sure. I'm inclined to think that the 360 will still win in a lot of cases.

So for CPU, the PS3 wins if you're heavily utilizing SPU. Better graphics API is also a point for PS3 on the CPU side. For GPU the 360 wins every time. I didn't really mention this much but for RAM 360 wins. For higher resolutions, PS3 could perhaps have an advantage. Some effects can potentially be higher quality on PS3.

There's no clear answer, but every time I hear someone even at a well-respected studio claim that their game couldn't be done on the other console I laugh at them. For peak capabilities they're quite close and I think as an industry we did a much better job with parity last generation than hardware manufacturers probably deserved.

Great post, that's largely what I suspected when it came to the PS360's power.

The consoles are roughly equal with advantages and disadvantages on each side. Sony had a much bigger first party team that was forced to know every in and out of the PS3's hardware. Microsoft on the other hand never invested much into their own studios but were easily able to make games that looked "good enough". Sony was always pushing the PS3 to vindicate the Cell/$599USD while Microsoft seemingly never pushed the 360 hard until Halo 4. Multiplatform games made for 360 were generally better on 360, while multiplatform games made for PS3 were generally better on PS3.

The PS3 had the most graphically impressive exclusives, but I think that largely came down to investment and developer talent, rather than a large hardware advantage. Of course these are things we can never know for sure, but I'll take an actual developer's opinion over Uncharted 2 screenshots.

Thank you......by your own admission, you concur that PS3 has better looking games. Hence, being more powerful.

I don't think it works that way...
 
Some "technical" stuffs.

Interesting.

I'm glad Unreal lost it's dominion over the industry in this new generation, the devs are all better prepared to produce their games, everyone has their own engine, or at least have more options this time. The results so far, are very diverse, and very good.
It's better this way, even for the Unreal itself, Epic has been really taking their time to develop UE4, things should be less problematic this time around, and the engine may not get so overused. I'm curious to see how Tekken 7 will look like, and I'm curious to see how the new engine compares to the "old", since Rocksteady's modified version of UE3 (that is being used on Batman Arkham Knight) is still mind blowing.
 
Tough to say. PS3 was better in some ways, 360 better in others.

I dont think we can definitively say either way, as when it came down to multiplats where time and effort was put in the ps3 versions like Arkham Asylum the experience was almost identical with the 360 version getting the edge

It's not like this gen where the ps4 is a clear step above the Xbox one.

With the ps3/360 it was more they excelled in different aspects but were for the most part similar
 
Look, a bunch of people trying to rewrite history again.

Nope, 360 is easier to develop for because it is more powerful at mostly any metric. Period.
Sony throw a lot of money to the right studio, Naughtydog, to max PS3 capabilities. Microsoft throw that money to Kinect bullshit.

But no one, with a minimal of technical knowledge, would ever say PS3 is better, hardware wise, than 360. Because it isn't.

Get over it and play games.
 
Look, a bunch of people trying to rewrite history again.

Nope, 360 is easier to develop for because it is more powerful at mostly any metric. Period.
Sony throw a lot of money to the right studio, Naughtydog, to max PS3 capabilities. Microsoft throw that money to Kinect bullshit.

So much irony
 
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