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343i Acknowledges Halo 5 Storytelling Mistake, Will Double Down on Master Chief Focus

Flipyap

Member
How many times did you play it? Have you tried a bunch of different approaches to the giant hangar room in the second mission? Did you make use of the huge variety of branching paths, multitiered areas, and hidden weapon caches? Have you tried loading up your team with heavy weapons, or telling them to snipe, or to cover you with turrets or vehicles? I wonder how much you really explored the options the campaign offered you.
Despite attempting it many times, I've only managed to finish it once specifically because those options only give you an illusion of choice or straight up make the game worse.

The branching paths don't mean much when the enemies you're sneaking up on aren't capable of surprising you because their AI and the tools at their disposal have been paired down dramatically compared to past Haloes. And that's in the best case scenario, where you're fighting the Covenant. There is absolutely nothing you could do to make fighting Prometheans feel fresh.
The hidden weapon caches break the game's balance. Theoretically "tankier" enemies are a joke if you're always given power weapons that melt them in seconds. You'll never have to do the traditional Halo dance around a Hunter (let alone an Elite, thanks to the forced single player co-op), and the less said about the new cardboard Prom Knights, the better.
Equipping the team with heavy weapons doesn't feel nearly as rewarding as babysitting your fragile marine squad. Both because of their invulnerability and because they never seem to know how to use their power weapons (now with limited ammo).

I really liked my first playthrough (and half of my second run which I had to abort because the Warden fights become the most tedious nightmare if you turn on even the most basic skulls), but ever since then more and more cracks began to show. Halo 5 was a step in the right direction, but they're still miles behind Bungie's design from over 15 years ago.
 
I'd love to see a MC:Origins game. The writing is already there from the books.


Just imagine the next halo reveal, halo:eek:rigins not halo 6... Would bring a new energy i reckon.
 

Ushay

Member
There were several reasons it didn't workl

- No focus on MC, team Osiris had no soul and personality (apart from Bucky)
- Blue team were WAY more interesting but virtually absent
- The buildup to this confrontation between Chief and Luke Cage was terrible, so was the actual fight.
- The Cortana plot wasn't executed very well, while I don't have any issue with the direction they took it needed a lot more depth
- The lore was done incorrectly, it was virtually absent from the actual game and instead littered in other formats
- Covenant took a back seat, also where are the brutes? They were a good enemy with real character. Remember when elites would kill MC and laugh at his corpse? Yeah, the new enemies don't have that kind of character at all

They got one thing right, and that was the multiplayer. It was amazing.
 
What I don't understand is why this needed to be realised.

What were all these people doing after Halo 2? I think it was made sufficiently clear people want to be chief with that, I get that arbiter and Locke are different and my main issue with Arby sections were that I had to use Covenant guns which I'm not a huge fan of and Locke didn't have that problem but I'm not sure why the focus away from Chief wasn't something they knew would annoy people?

It also wasn't the biggest problem going
 
For me, Halo 5's campaign suffered because it was just... there. It was fine, but it had nothing really memorable about it. Halo 3 remains my favourite FPS campaign because every level, every encounter had something unique. No Halo game has come close to recapturing the feeling of fighting the scarabs in Halo 3 for me. Halo 5 has some amazing core mechanics, but the levels themselves were quite bland. I'd like to see 343 take the approach Respawn did for Titanfall 2's campaign and build a whole bunch of fun scenarios and work them into the game.
It's so fucking bizarre hearing Frank/Stinkles say this considering how much he doubled down on the story and the removal of spilt screen especially here on GAF...

He's suspiciously starting to sound like Peter Molyneux

I'm sorry, but this is quite the reach.
While I'm not really sure what you mean by "doubling down on story,"
He posted this about splitscreen earlier this year, and here's a tweet from Frank about splitscreen:
uxxTk2L.jpg


Not sure how that is anything like Molyneux.
 

DocSeuss

Member

I stand by what I said. You don't hire people who don't want to work on Halo. Hire people who hate Halo? Well... that gave 'em Halo 4, a game that was so awful the population dropped like a rock.

A good Halo game. I'm nit picking at that because I can't in good conscious say their games aren't quality in many respects.

It's just not a justified change and their mark feels like desperate pandering with a dose of a "me too!" syndrome lol

A good Halo game would be among the best shooters ever made. You don't make a bad game but a good Halo game. That's not possible, unless Halo no longer stands for "best in class first person shooters."
 

Diamond

Member
They need to look deeper than master chief to realize what true fans want.

How about going back to the exploration based, iosolated, exotic sense of wonder that Halo 1 had?

The appeal really isn't about Chief and never was.

If anything, they need to tone down the story elements and enrich the world with mysterious lore.

That's exactly how I feel. After Combat Evolved they tried to shoehorn bigger plots and characters into the mix, and the series didn't need that. Actually the kind of cold, neutral tone of the first was one of the things I really enjoyed about it. Once you try to overwrite everything, well, everything becomes more obvious and less mysterious.

I wouldn't be so sure that that's what a majority of fans want, but I really think the series single-player quality would have been way better if they had taken that approach.
 
Double down? Having not played Halo in years, isn't MasterChef getting a bit stale?...

No, just like fans of super heros or other series with main characters.

It's not unreasonable, especially since Chief is a fun "static personality" type hero with an iconic voice and attitude. A character doesn't need to have an ocean of depth to be loved and appreciated. His simple and effective presentation just makes him a great player avatar.

Just look at Doom guy. He wants to kill demons. Lots of demons.

Chief wants to protect mankind and kick the ass of anyone trying to harm us.
 

Kysen

Member
They need to get rid of the trash promethians and their stupid weapons and go back to the covenant/flood. Fucking glowing dogs and shoot the body parts nonsense.
 
Drop Halo entirely. The series has too much nostalgia. Fans are never going to be happy with what you put out. Or maybe drop Chief entirely. Reboot the series. Let people know it's changing.
 

Yukinari

Member
Drop Halo entirely. The series has too much nostalgia. Fans are never going to be happy with what you put out. Or maybe drop Chief entirely. Reboot the series. Let people know it's changing.

Fans seemed pretty content with what Bungie put out multiple games into the series.
 
Frankie, that wasn't the problem. It wasn't a problem in H2 too. The problem here was bad script, bad storytelling and bad character development. If Locke was and interesting character with a deep backstory like Arbiter's, and playing him didn't feel like we were still playing Master Chief, people wouldn't have complained.
 
Frankie, that wasn't the problem. It wasn't a problem in H2 too. The problem here was bad script, bad storytelling and bad character development. If Locke was and interesting character with a deep backstory like Arbiter's, and playing him didn't feel like we were still playing Master Chief, people wouldn't have complained.

I think Halo 2 is a bad example anyways. It was the sequel to a megaton hit and people's expectations were understandably Chief focused. Halo 2 had pretty good writing with an easy to follow plot. Arbiter also played differently with the ability to camo. He was differentiated in gameplay. Some argue his levels weren't great (I liked them), but at least Bungie did something interesting with him.

Halo 5 came hot off the heels of Chief losing Cortana. We expected to see where his journey takes him. Instead Halo 5 opens up with a nonsensical Marvel hollywood action schlock and forces us to play as these unknown characters. They play exactly like Chief, which further makes the spartan generational differences even less apparent--gameplay wise and lore wise. Wouldn't it have been interesting if Chief and team didn't have those Spartan abilities and the fight between Chief and Locke demonstrated this with Chief still coming out on top as the definitive combat badass? Chief doesn't need those fancy tricks.

Halo 2 at least properly introduced Arby and gave us some solid background on him. We even empathize with him. Can't do that with Locke in the slightest. The only character we recognize is Buck, but it's immediately clear he's fan service and we have no idea how or why he's a spartan now. Halo 5's just a mess.
 

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Frankie, that wasn't the problem. It wasn't a problem in H2 too. The problem here was bad script, bad storytelling and bad character development. If Locke was and interesting character with a deep backstory like Arbiter's, and playing him didn't feel like we were still playing Master Chief, people wouldn't have complained.

You're misremembering, just like 343 collectively misremembered.

The uproar about playing a chunk of the game as the Arbiter after Halo 2 was just as bad. Hence why he was relegated to an NPC companion in Halo 3.

Which is why I found it remarkable they chose to make the same mistake.
 

iFirez

Member
Halo 5 was one of the biggest misfires in recent gaming narrative for me.

Here's a super brief outline of the direction I would have liked 5 to take after 4:
Chief is sent to investigate Forerunner tech coming alive all over the galaxy, he bumps into Blue team for whatever reason and we get a kind of heart warming reunion for book readers and a cool new group of spartans for game players only (heck I could do without Blue team too but lets say they're here). They all discover that the Forerunner tech thats activating is all military focused and the covenant are also trying to take control of it. This introduces us to a building new threat while also doubling down on the three way battles from 4 which have us battling against Prometheans and Covenant. Over the course of the game we visit other forerunner tech while a new covenant leader taunts us in fleeting battles (similar to Atriox and Decimus in Halo Wars 2) and we even visit another Halo after learning all other rings in the array are on stand by again; this could introduce some cool moments between chief and blue team as it will be their first time ever seeing a Halo. At the end of the game we learn that all the tech has been reactivating and coming alive to defend against a coming enemy from outside the galaxy -- this is the big reveal for the end of the game as a new fight is just about to begin it leaves us wanting more, harkening back to Halo 2's ending but on a much more galactic scale.

So basically, No Cortana, No Guardians and No Osiris. Focus on Chief and the character development of Blue Team on a galactic quest to find out whats going on while being taunted by a new more tyrannical leader of the covenant (splinter faction). Heck 031 Exuberant Witness could have even been the monitor on the new Halo they visited if they wanted. I feel like we need to be on Halo or around/involved in the story of these huge ring worlds in some way and we haven't even set foot on one in 2 games now. It doesn't have to be a cliche either it can be used as a really cool story device for Chief making a small quip to the rest of blue team who are in awe of this thing -- which means Chief is the old school Halo player while blue team are all those new to the franchise. The fact that every Forerunner structure and complex that's activating and awakening isn't just another Guardian gives it more mystery and surprise when you explore it or see it coming alive. Maybe get rid of the Warden too or make him just an end game one fight.

tldr; Halo 5 should have focused on Chief and a galactic story of discovery. Not Cortana or these Guardians.
 

Waaghals

Member
I had several problems with H5's campaign:

1. AI controlled teammates always ruins games for me. They are useless, but at the same time they are always there, messing up and breaking the immersion.

2. The game is essentially about a ONI Spec ops team fighting in a covenant civil war.
It is a means to and end, but that is what you are doing for most of the game.

So we are playing as people we do not know fighting battles we don't care about.

I also found the levels to be boring, but I can't quite put the finger on what is wrong. I am willing to give the game another shake.
 

Newlove

Member
I didn't mind playing as Locke. The gameplay in the campaign was also good, but I do believe the story as a whole was one of the weakest in the series. To me, I think the introduction of the separate teams to accompany Chief and Locke done nothing for me and didn't have me caring for their presence. I also think they should have played up the rivalry between Locke and Chief more, where Locke genuinely believes for a while that Chief is the enemy.
 

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
I was expecting 5 to follow the story of the Chief finding something that hinted Cortana was still "alive", and spending the game trying to find her. Perhaps with some added "she holds information that is needed to save humanity" plot.
 

jmartoine

Member
You're misremembering, just like 343 collectively misremembered.

The uproar about playing a chunk of the game as the Arbiter after Halo 2 was just as bad. Hence why he was relegated to an NPC companion in Halo 3.

Which is why I found it remarkable they chose to make the same mistake.

But now we've come full circle and there are certain Halo fans that would love an Arbiter spin off.

At least in Halo 2 the split between the two characters was pretty much 50/50, I can't believe 343 made such an egregious decision to have Halo 5 split 70/30 towards Osiris.
 
O'Connor with more garbage PR talk, don't believe a word he says. Cannot believe how MS is allowing this studio to bury their biggest IP. Either 343 has to change or Halo needs to be put on hold until they can find a studio with some vision.
 
But now we've come full circle and there are certain Halo fans that would love an Arbiter spin off.

At least in Halo 2 the split between the two characters was pretty much 50/50, I can't believe 343 made such an egregious decision to have Halo 5 split 70/30 towards Osiris.

And the last chief mission is arguably the worst level in the series topped off with 3 Wardens at once when you as a player are super sick of him showing up.

It's kind of hilarious in a pathetic way lol
 

Newlove

Member
O'Connor with more garbage PR talk, don't believe a word he says. Cannot believe how MS is allowing this studio to bury their biggest IP. Either 343 has to change or Halo needs to be put on hold until they can find a studio with some vision.

You make it sound as if the game was critically panned.
 

Poster#1

Member
O'Connor with more garbage PR talk, don't believe a word he says. Cannot believe how MS is allowing this studio to bury their biggest IP. Either 343 has to change or Halo needs to be put on hold until they can find a studio with some vision.

I think Frankie is fine and whatever is happening in the franchise is beyond him. Though i agree MS have to find a better team/studio to handle the franchise. The Coalition handled Gears 4 million times better than 343i handled Halo.
 
Reboot Halo and have Chief take off his mask to show a full on hipster beard and have the story focus on the relationship with his young son and make it a rites of passage story.

Folk will lap that up.
 
I think Frankie is fine and whatever is happening in the franchise is beyond him. Though i agree MS have to find a better team/studio to handle the franchise. The Coalition handled Gears 4 million times better than 343i handled Halo.

Not that I want to paint Stinkles as a villain, but:

Frank O'Connor, also known as Frankie, is the Franchise Development Director for the Halo franchise at 343 Industries.

He's pretty integral and has a major influence in where the series has and is going.
 

Fraeon

Member
I think it was sort of stupid they even went back to Chief after 3. They had so many other possibilities that they could've explored, since the universe is really interesting but Master Chief is barely a character and now we're stuck with him for another trilogy.
 
You make it sound as if the game was critically panned.

I don't give a damn what critics on say, the response from the fan base should weigh heavier than that.

Just all marketing smoke and mirrrors going on at 343, this will be their 3rd AAA title and I don't have much hope for them. They are treated like the crown jewel in the MGS line up but every other studio has been out performing them.
 

Izuna

Banned
How many times did you play it? Have you tried a bunch of different approaches to the giant hangar room in the second mission? Did you make use of the huge variety of branching paths, multitiered areas, and hidden weapon caches? Have you tried loading up your team with heavy weapons, or telling them to snipe, or to cover you with turrets or vehicles? I wonder how much you really explored the options the campaign offered you.

I got all the campaign achievements and did solo legendary pre and post patch

So hush

Worst halo campaign Imo. Makes 4 feel fresh
 

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
I don't give a damn what critics on say, the response from the fan base should weigh heavier than that.

Just all marketing smoke and mirrrors going on at 343, this will be their 3rd AAA title and I don't have much hope for them. They are treated like the crown jewel in the MGS line up but every other studio has been out performing them.

You're talking about the vocal fanbase, though. I'm not saying they shouldn't listen, but when you've got great critical reviews and then noisy negative feedback from keyboard warriors, something is amiss and you have to feel less sympathetic towards the latter.

It's Halo. People will always bitch about it.
 

Lothars

Member
O'Connor with more garbage PR talk, don't believe a word he says. Cannot believe how MS is allowing this studio to bury their biggest IP. Either 343 has to change or Halo needs to be put on hold until they can find a studio with some vision.
They won't, Halo 6 will come out and probably be forgettable but hopefully not as meh as 5. I just have no faith in 343 as a Dev since I think halo 5 isn't that good.
 

Admodieus

Member
Lack of Chief was a problem but one that would be forgivable if Locke and crew were more interesting and didn't just feel like a carbon copy of Chief and Blue Team to me.

I thought the far more egregious issues were:

  • Continued reliance on extended universe (books, comics, movies, shows) to cover crucial plot points, like how Chief reunited with Blue Team, what's going on in the Covenant, how Buck became a Spartan, etc. 4 was guilty of this too
  • All of the good parts (Osiris first appearance, Locke vs Chief fights) were in cutscenes rather than things I did in game
  • Repeating Warden boss fight
  • Lack of any memorable setpiece. I can still recall finding the Flood for the first time in Halo 1, escaping from the Pillar of Autumn, the first time you fight a Scarab in Halo 2, and the entire levels of The Ark and The Covenant from Halo 3
 
You're talking about the vocal fanbase, though. I'm not saying they shouldn't listen, but when you've got great critical reviews and then noisy negative feedback from keyboard warriors, something is amiss and you have to feel less sympathetic towards the latter.

It's Halo. People will always bitch about it.

Their biggest IP, a multiplayer focused one at that.
Is not even in the TOP 20 most played games on Xbox Live. They should feel very sympathetic to the latter since they are the once keeping their studio afloat and not the "great critical reviews".
 
Please don't try to "humanize" him. Don't try to make him more "sympathetic" or any of that shit. We don't need to know what makes him tic.

Just put him in the middle of a story where he has to murder a shit ton of aliens to save the day.

Don't make it about him.
 

JaggedSac

Member
Their biggest IP, a multiplayer focused one at that.
Is not even in the TOP 20 most played games on Xbox Live. They should feel very sympathetic to the latter since they are the once keeping their studio afloat and not the "great critical reviews".

To be honest, they should fuck all Halo fans and try to make new ones. The Halo SP formula is stale. The MP formula, while I enjoy it, is not what people are looking for and is stale to most. They should do a major shakeup if they want the game to see long term usage.
 
Please don't try to "humanize" him. Don't try to make him more "sympathetic" or any of that shit. We don't need to know what makes him tic.

Just put him in the middle of a story where he has to murder a shit ton of aliens to save the day.

Don't make it about him.

I like you lol

I liked how in the Halo 1-3 days a passionate fan could get a closer look at Chief in the books if they desired. But even then, it was more about the setting/conflict.

I think it's weird that people feel they need some deep emotional narrative in a character. Whatever happened to appreciating a good old fashioned static hero? They are fun.

ID software took the right approach with Doom guy (The Doom Slayer).
 

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Their biggest IP, a multiplayer focused one at that.
Is not even in the TOP 20 most played games on Xbox Live. They should feel very sympathetic to the latter since they are the once keeping their studio afloat and not the "great critical reviews".

That's a different metric I'm not talking about, and is therefore irrelevant in the context of my comment. Although that is something they should be paying attention to, albeit considering this is a different time to 2008.
 

LiamR

Member
It's depressing to me how oblivious they are to the actual problems people had with it. Not the repetitive Warden battles? The weird choice to
bring Cortana back as a villain
? The completely wasted opportunity in Osiris? The story was a complete mess. At least Halo 4 had personal, interesting ideas and was brave enough to follow through on them (stuff like Cortana's rampancy being inspired by a real life experience with dementia).
 

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
It's depressing to me how oblivious they are to the actual problems people had with it. Not the repetitive Warden battles? The weird choice to
bring Cortana back as a villain
? The completely wasted opportunity in Osiris? The story was a complete mess. At least Halo 4 had personal, interesting ideas and was brave enough to follow through on them (stuff like Cortana's rampancy being inspired by a real life experience with dementia).

I'm sure they're well aware of those issues, but they're not going to bring up anything they can't spin in a positive light.
 
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