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[blu]

As I recall....

Dreamcast: 26 MB RAM total - 800 MB (0.8 GB)/sec

16MB main and 8MB video. Those extra 2MB of sound mem were nowhere near the characteristics of the other two pools.

PS2: 40 MB RAM total - 3.2 GB/sec + 48 GB/sec EDRAM
GameCube 43 MB RAM total - 2.6 GB/sec + 15-20 GB/sec 1T-SRAM

Again, you lump in the 16MB of sound ram, which were no match for the three 1T SRAM pools (that's right, all other ram in the cube was 1T SRAM, just in different organizations).

Xbox 64 MB/sec RAM total - 6.4 GB/sec

Note that in contrast to all others, xbox's was a very hapless UMA design. Sort of like N64 was a good 'negative example' in some architecture aspects.

 

[M3d10n]

I *think* NetFront licenses the browser source code while Opera was essentially a 3rd party application supplied by Opera themselves, so maybe this is why Nintendo went with it.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Both systems have far more than 32MB available.

They do? PSP-1000 has 32MB total and the Browser would only have access to 24MB?

 

[bluemax]

Psp had 32MB didn't it?

Yeah and in reality you weren't able to use all of that 32, you really could only use 24 if you were lucky. The number of hours I lost helping to trim the executable down

I believe the OS footprint was reduced from 8 MB to 6 MB at some point.

If it was then it was only after 2009. The last PSP title I worked on was in 2009 and we were definitely trying to keep things under 24MB.

 

[Throwaway123456789]

Would it be possible for the browser to render the websites in 3D?

For example, the text and images on top and the background on the back.

I imagine they could easily include a font that shows up as 3D.

Is there any way the 3DS could somehow write a save state of sorts of the game it's running to the internal storage space when opening the browser, letting it use the full 128MB, then load that state when the game is relaunched?

 

[frankie_baby]

I imagine they could easily include a font that shows up as 3D.

Is there any way the 3DS could somehow write a save state of sorts of the game it's running to the internal storage space when opening the browser, letting it use the full 128MB, then load that state when the game is relaunched?

the only way I could think would be to copy the RAM to the flash memory but methinks doing that would probably kill the flash memory eventually

 

[Throwaway123456789]

the only way I could think would be to copy the RAM to the flash memory but methinks doing that would probably kill the flash memory eventually

Couldn't it just be dumped to a file in the internal storage? After all, it's got 2GB sitting there.

Might be too slow though.

 

[frankie_baby]

Couldn't it just be dumped to a file in the internal storage? After all, it's got 2GB sitting there.

Might be too slow though.

that's exactly what I mean, I was just thinking if it did that every time it suspended a game it would wear out the flash, as they only have a limited amount of read/write cycles

 

[wsippel]

They do? PSP-1000 has 32MB total and the Browser would only have access to 24MB?

Yeah, sorry. I misread your post - PS3 instead of PSP.

 

[charsace]

Damn that's a low amount of memory. Thought this thing would have 256mb.

 

[AceBandage]

Damn that's a low amount of memory. Thought this thing would have 256mb.

For the resolution the 3DS displays at, 128MB is more than it'll need.

 

[Izayoi]

Damn that's a low amount of memory. Thought this thing would have 256mb.

What? Why? 128MB is more than enough.

 

[Donnie]

Damn that's a low amount of memory. Thought this thing would have 256mb.

What? Why? 128MB is more than enough.

He's probably comparing it to his smartphone. Of course the total RAM on a smartphone and a dedicated gaming device aren't directly comparable in the slightest. Firstly most smartphones use well over 100MB of ram for the OS and second the speed of the RAM is also quite stunted in comparison to a device like 3DS.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Mystery solved, I guess. CPU next?

 

[AceBandage]

Mystery solved, I guess. CPU next?

CPU and GPU are harder, since you can't tell clock speed just by looking at them.

 

[charsace]

For the resolution the 3DS displays at, 128MB is more than it'll need.

What about more ram for the game code? Its always good to have more ram, especially when 256mb of ram would be cheap.

The 4th gen ipod touch has only 256mb of ram and people were upset about that.

 

[AceBandage]

What about more ram for the game code? Its always good to have more ram, especially when 256mb of ram would be cheap.

The 4th gen ipod touch has only 256mb of ram and people were upset about that.

iPod=/=3DS
The iPod has a resource hog of an OS.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

CPU and GPU are harder, since you can't tell clock speed just by looking at them.

You can determine the external frequency externally at least. I'm sure some developer will spill the beans eventually. Possibly an SDK leak?

 

[Izayoi]

What about more ram for the game code? Its always good to have more ram, especially when 256mb of ram would be cheap.

The 4th gen ipod touch has only 256mb of ram and people were upset about that.

Not to be a dick, but it's pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

The RAM in the 3DS is very expensive, low-latency, high-throughput RAM designed for gaming applications.

The RAM in iDevices and many smart phones is slow general-purpose RAM.

There's a huge difference between the two of them. Not to mention the fact that smart phones are similar to PCs in that they have a bunch of shit running in the background, unlike the 3DS or any other dedicated gaming device.

You can determine the external frequency externally at least. I'm sure some developer will spill the beans eventually. Possibly an SDK leak?

It's a possibility. That's how we found out about the Wii's specs. (Did that leak ever get confirmed?)

 

[Emitan]

CPU and GPU are harder, since you can't tell clock speed just by looking at them.

I sense a challenge. My eyes are ready.

The 4th gen ipod touch has only 256mb of ram and people were upset about that.

The iPod Touch is not a dedicated gaming device and it runs a RAM hogging OS.

 

[SnakeXs]

What about more ram for the game code? Its always good to have more ram, especially when 256mb of ram would be cheap.

The 4th gen ipod touch has only 256mb of ram and people were upset about that.

You really have no clue what you're talking about, do you?

 

[Donnie]

What about more ram for the game code? Its always good to have more ram, especially when 256mb of ram would be cheap.

The 4th gen ipod touch has only 256mb of ram and people were upset about that.

The two memory pools aren't directly comparable at all. I also wouldn't be suprised if the Ipod Touch has a hard limit of about 64MB per app, if that.

 

[rpmurphy]

What about more ram for the game code? Its always good to have more ram, especially when 256mb of ram would be cheap.

The 4th gen ipod touch has only 256mb of ram and people were upset about that.

"More is better" does't work if it's not a major limiting factor of the system's performance capabilities. You have to look at the other components and the overall system. Hardware design is an art, where people aim to put together individual components that work together perfectly in harmony, while meeting the big picture constraints, desired functionalities and qualities. Not so simple unless you don't care about being sloppy.

 

[charsace]

most of you are just being dicks. Nothing was said about the ram being low latency. All that was said is that its 128mb of ram. Websites are saying the speed is double that of ddr2 so the speed of the ram is the equivalent of ddr3? I don't see the latency time and don't have enugh info to do the math and most likely never will so meh.

More ram is always better in regards to games. It means better textures, bigger worlds, etc.

 

[Luigiv]

I called it when that first leaked screenshot reported 96MBs. It would cost Nintendo more money to use two memory chips (64MB+32MB) than a single one, would made the assembly more complex and use valuable board space.

What I did not expect were such nice speeds. The 3DS probably doesn't have dedicated VRAM and having fast RAM was a necessity.

Actually it does have VRAM. That was already confirmed by one of the devs in those E3 interview videos Nintendo did. So I expect the VRAM to be even faster.

What about more ram for the game code? Its always good to have more ram, especially when 256mb of ram would be cheap.

The 4th gen ipod touch has only 256mb of ram and people were upset about that.

Whilst the Touch does have 256MB total, only ~100MB of that is actually available to individual applications. On top of that the RAM in iDevices (LPDDR2) is much slower* and much cheaper per MB as a result.

*I don't have any hard numbers, but Google seems to suggest ~0.4GB/s.

 

[AceBandage]

most of you are just being dicks. Nothing was said about the ram being low latency. All that was said is that its 128mb of ram. Websites are saying the speed is double that of ddr2 so the speed of the ram is the equivalent of ddr3? I don't see the latency time and don't have enugh info to do the math and most likely never will so meh.

More ram is always better in regards to games. It means better textures, bigger worlds, etc.

Yeah... on a PC...
This is a handheld. Are you really expecting Just Cause 2 on this thing?

 

[slidewinder]

Not to be a dick, but it's pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

The RAM in the 3DS is very expensive, low-latency, high-throughput RAM designed for gaming applications.

The RAM in iDevices and many smart phones is slow general-purpose RAM.

Where are you guys getting this from? This stuff is indeed meant to be an *almost* drop-in replacement for the RAM conventionally used in... guess it now... mobile phones.

The Fujitsu chart referenced in the ifixit article is irrelevant; it's for the "Consumer FCRAM" (part numbers beginning 'MB81E') series of chips, which are meant to be used in place of conventional DDR modules in consumer electronics devices: HDTVs, DVRs, etc. Things you plug into a wall, or at least things with very large batteries.

This memory is part of the "Mobile FCRAM" series (part numbers beginning 'MB82D'), that are meant to replace the usual low power SRAM chips in phones and other portable, handheld devices.

If this stuff LOOKS awesome at first glance, it's because people are mistaking it for the (relatively) high-power draw home electronics parts. And even then that chart is a bit deceptive in that it's only the highest-density 512 MBit modules that have that DDR2-doubling performance, and that's because THOSE chips can be had with a 64-bit bus width while the rest have only 32-bit.

Which is the one ray of hope here. It seems unlikely that the 3DS has that 3.2 GB/s of memory bandwidth you all are hoping for, but it DOES seem quite possible that the 512 MBit mobile parts here could ALSO have a bus width twice what the smaller modules do. Unfortunately, Fujitsu doesn't have a datasheet posted on their website for this particular part, but maybe some more research around that documentation area in those links I posted will reveal something.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Yeah... on a PC...
This is a handheld. Are you really expecting Just Cause 2 on this thing?

Yes?

 

[AceBandage]

Yes?

I mean, as awesome as it would be, there's just no way it's possible on any current or upcoming handheld without having the zones separated.

 

[charsace]

Where are you guys getting this from? This stuff is indeed meant to be an *almost* drop-in replacement for the RAM conventionally used in... guess it now... mobile phones.

The Fujitsu chart referenced in the ifixit article is irrelevant; it's for the "Consumer FCRAM" (part numbers beginning 'MB81E') series of chips, which are meant to be used in place of conventional DDR modules in consumer electronics devices: HDTVs, DVRs, etc. Things you plug into a wall, or at least things with very large batteries.

This memory is part of the "Mobile FCRAM" series (part numbers beginning 'MB82D'), that are meant to replace the usual low power SRAM chips in phones and other portable, handheld devices.

If this stuff LOOKS awesome at first glance, it's because people are mistaking it for the (relatively) high-power draw home electronics parts. And even then that chart is a bit deceptive in that it's only the highest-density 512 MBit modules that have that DDR2-doubling performance, and that's because THOSE chips can be had with a 64-bit bus width while the rest have only 32-bit.

Which is the one ray of hope here. It seems unlikely that the 3DS has that 3.2 GB/s of memory bandwidth you all are hoping for, but it DOES seem quite possible that the 512 MBit mobile parts here could ALSO have a bus width twice what the smaller modules do. Unfortunately, Fujitsu doesn't have a datasheet posted on their website for this particular part, but maybe some more research around that documentation area in those links I posted will reveal something.

So the bus in this thing isn't 64bit? The bus in the vid chip is 128mb I am guessing.

 

[From The Dust]

I mean, as awesome as it would be, there's just no way it's possible on any current or upcoming handheld without having the zones separated.

NGP!

Spoiler

MAKE.

BELIEVE!

 

[rpmurphy]

most of you are just being dicks. Nothing was said about the ram being low latency. All that was said is that its 128mb of ram. Websites are saying the speed is double that of ddr2 so the speed of the ram is the equivalent of ddr3? I don't see the latency time and don't have enugh info to do the math and most likely never will so meh.

More ram is always better in regards to games. It means better textures, bigger worlds, etc.

I think your view is skewed by the consumer perspective, whereas building real-world products has to be also viewed from the design perspective. Questions like "How do I choose a processor?" or "How much RAM should I get?" have quite different reasonings behind them for the two worlds. Nintendo isn't out to create a hobbyist's dream mini-PC here.

 

[slidewinder]

So the bus in this thing isn't 64bit?

No, it could be, as I said.

 

[Igor Antunov]

I mean, as awesome as it would be, there's just no way it's possible on any current or upcoming handheld without having the zones separated.

GTA's on PSP proved that streaming large environments works. The DS's much faster RAM and cartridge (rather than discs) will mean better streaming.

It 'could' be done.

 

[Luigiv]

Actually it does have VRAM. That was already confirmed by one of the devs in those E3 interview videos Nintendo did. So I expect the VRAM to be even faster.

Self Quote, It was our very own Jackson.

 

[AceBandage]

GTA's on PSP proved that streaming large environments works. The DS's much faster RAM and cartridge (rather than discs) will mean better streaming.

It 'could' be done.

Yes, but GTA PSP isn't even close to the size or complexity of JC2.

Self Quote, It was our very own Jackson.

I wonder if dev specs are still under NDA.

 

[wsippel]

most of you are just being dicks. Nothing was said about the ram being low latency. All that was said is that its 128mb of ram. Websites are saying the speed is double that of ddr2 so the speed of the ram is the equivalent of ddr3? I don't see the latency time and don't have enugh info to do the math and most likely never will so meh.

More ram is always better in regards to games. It means better textures, bigger worlds, etc.

Here you go: http://www.fujitsu.com/emea/services/microelectronics/fcram/

 

[Emitan]

Self Quote, It was our very own Jackson.

He looks nothing like Conan. Liar.

 

[TUROK]

8 GB's for 3DS carts? Are we sure this measurement is in bytes, not bits?

 

[AceBandage]

8 GB's for 3DS carts? Are we sure this measurement is in bytes, not bits?

It's bytes.
Launch games are already filling 2GB cards.

 

[Lonely1]

Where are you guys getting this from? This stuff is indeed meant to be an *almost* drop-in replacement for the RAM conventionally used in... guess it now... mobile phones.

The Fujitsu chart referenced in the ifixit article is irrelevant; it's for the "Consumer FCRAM" (part numbers beginning 'MB81E') series of chips, which are meant to be used in place of conventional DDR modules in consumer electronics devices: HDTVs, DVRs, etc. Things you plug into a wall, or at least things with very large batteries.

This memory is part of the "Mobile FCRAM" series (part numbers beginning 'MB82D'), that are meant to replace the usual low power SRAM chips in phones and other portable, handheld devices.

If this stuff LOOKS awesome at first glance, it's because people are mistaking it for the (relatively) high-power draw home electronics parts. And even then that chart is a bit deceptive in that it's only the highest-density 512 MBit modules that have that DDR2-doubling performance, and that's because THOSE chips can be had with a 64-bit bus width while the rest have only 32-bit.

Which is the one ray of hope here. It seems unlikely that the 3DS has that 3.2 GB/s of memory bandwidth you all are hoping for, but it DOES seem quite possible that the 512 MBit mobile parts here could ALSO have a bus width twice what the smaller modules do. Unfortunately, Fujitsu doesn't have a datasheet posted on their website for this particular part, but maybe some more research around that documentation area in those links I posted will reveal something.

People link to that 512mb chart because that's closer to what the scan found. And, besides the max throughput of the memory, the FCRAM has a lot lower access time (specially in burst mode) than LPDDR1/2.

 

[Truth101]

8 GB's for 3DS carts? Are we sure this measurement is in bytes, not bits?

It is bytes.

The Max capacity is 2GB right now but the carts support up to 8GB, so in the future we will see an increase in size.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Why is everyone concluding that the OS using a whopping 32mbs of ram.

Like many have mentioned, the 360 OS also uses 32mbs of ram, only it outputs everything at 1080p and does so much more with the ram.

Given how sparse the 3DS's OS is, I think with a bit of optimization, there's absolutely no reason the OS has to take up more than 8mbs of ram, and leave the remaining 120mbs for developers.

If Nintendo hasn't already done that, they should with the next update. Both the PS3 and 360 reduced their OS ram foot print and freed up more ram for newer games with a firmware update.

 

[AceBandage]

Why is everyone concluding that the OS using a whopping 32mbs of ram.

Like many have mentioned, the 360 OS also uses 32mbs of ram, only it outputs everything at 1080p and does so much more with the ram.

Given how sparse the 3DS's OS is, I think with a bit of optimization, there's absolutely no reason the OS has to take up more than 8mbs of ram, and leave the remaining 120mbs for developers.

If Nintendo hasn't already done that, they should with the next update. Both the PS3 and 360 reduced their ram foot print and freed up more ram for newer games with a firmware update.

The only reason I can see it needing 32MB is because you can surf the internet while playing a game.

 

[Lonely1]

Why is everyone concluding that the OS using a whopping 32mbs of ram.

Like many have mentioned, the 360 OS also uses 32mbs of ram, only it outputs everything at 1080p and does so much more with the ram.

Given how sparse the 3DS's OS is, I think with a bit of optimization, there's absolutely no reason the OS has to take up more than 8mbs of ram, and leave the remaining 120mbs for developers.

If Nintendo hasn't already done that, they should with the next update. Both the PS3 and 360 reduced their OS ram foot print and freed up more ram for newer games with a firmware update.

The 360 doesn't let you open a browser mid game. That's why even 64MB dedicated to the OS shouldn't be discarded (although would be a case of misplaced priorities).

 

[Stephen Colbert]

The only reason I can see it needing 32MB is because you can surf the internet while playing a game.

I would gladly give up the ability to surf the internet with a crappy browser while in the middle of a game, to give games access to more ram.

I'm glad they let you do simple things like take notes while a game is suspended, and that should take up no more than 4-8mbs of ram. But it seems wasteful to eat up a bunch of the ram just so people can browse the internet without quitting the game. How many people would even use the internet browser midgame. Most people that dependent on looking things up online in the middle of a game, have smartphones for that.

 

[From The Dust]

I would gladly give up the ability to surf the internet with a crappy while in the middle of a game, to give games access to more ram.

They should let you do simple things like take notes while a game is suspending, which should take up no more than 4-8mbs of ram. But it seems wasteful to eat up a bunch of the ram just so people can browse the internet without quitting the game.

you can

 

[wsippel]

People link to that 512mb chart because that's closer to what the scan found.

That's the weird thing: There is no 512Mbit mobile FCRAM on Fujitsus website, but the model number Chipworks provided makes sense. MB82DBS0864 would be mobile FCRAM with a 8M x 64 configuration. "MB82" is mobile FCRAM, "0864" is the configuration.

 

[AceBandage]

The 360 doesn't let you open a browser mid game. That's why even 64MB dedicated to the OS shouldn't be discarded (although would be a case of misplaced priorities).

Since devs are able to fully port Wii engines over (and have them actually look better), I'd say it at least has 96MB of RAM.

That's the weird thing: There is no 512Mbit mobile FCRAM on Fujitsus website, but the model number Chipworks provided makes sense. MB82DBS0864 would be mobile FCRAM with a 8M x 64 configuration. "MB82" is mobile FCRAM, "0864" is the configuration.

A custom FCRAM wouldn't be out of the question. Most of the parts in the 3DS are slightly modified "shelf units" honestly.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

The 360 doesn't let you open a browser mid game. That's why even 64MB dedicated to the OS shouldn't be discarded (although would be a case of misplaced priorities).

Exactly. Wasting a ton of the systems ram solely for the purpose of letting people browse online while in the middle of a game, is stupid.

Make the in game OS footprint 4-8mbs of ram, give the remaining 120mbs to developers for their games, and make anyone that wants to browse the web have to quit out of their game in order to do so.

The web browser could also be far better since it would have access to the full 128mbs of ram rather than just 32mbs, since the game would be closed when it's running.

The 3DS is a gaming console first and foremost. It should prioritize the games.