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[Solid warrior]

I drew up a little chart comparing the 3DS specs to the PSP and iPhone 3GS (thanks for finding the slide, Karas!).

It's hard to draw a conclusion right now, since the specs they list are for 100 MHz clock speed. They say that it draws up to 1 mW per 1 MHz clock speed, so at 400 MHz, it is only drawing 400 mW.

I quickly tested my PSP-1000 to see how much power it draws in a top 3D game (MGS Peace Walker should suffice) and it it drawing up to 2100 mW during a 3D scene with the lowest screen brightness. Sitting in the main menu, it draws 1500 mW, so that tells us that the combination of 3D and audio is drawing 600 mW. It isn't unreasonable to assume most of that is going to 3D (certainly up to 400 mW) which puts it right in line with a 400 Mhz Pico 200 chip in the 3DS.

It's hard to draw a conclusion from 100 Mhz specs though, since fill rate may not scale directly with clock speed (vertex rate should though, I think)

Games will most likely end up looking less detailed than on a PSP or iPhone 3GS

 

[SkinnyPupp]

Are we comparing phony screenshots from canned non-playable demos to actual games now?

Anyway, I deleted the conclusion, since it's pretty much impossible right now. But I'll update the post as more info comes in

 

[Donnie]

dont get to excited nintendo loves to use custom technology so while this is the chip they're using who knows how they've dumbed it down for the 3DS.

until a developer shares final specs with us there's no reason to look into things too deeply.

I don't think Nintendo have ever done that, they always pick something and then have things added, not removed.

 

[EatChildren]

I wonder what games at E3 were the closest to its real world performance. MGS3DS looks amazing, but I almost dont want to count it due to the entire scenario being 100% scripted. I'm more interested in the games where everything, eg AI ad control, are running in real time.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Are we comparing phony screenshots from canned non-playable demos to actual games now?

Anyway, I deleted the conclusion, since it's pretty much impossible right now. But I'll update the post as more info comes in

There was a video of some guy walking around the enviorments in MGS3 so... Not entirely non-playable.

 

[Solid warrior]

Are we comparing phony screenshots from canned non-playable demos to actual games now?

Anyway, I deleted the conclusion, since it's pretty much impossible right now. But I'll update the post as more info comes in

not sure if serious.

The demo is running in realtime, and it shows just how detailed the 3DS visual capabilities can be. This is the first generation of 3DS software, and already it's impressive.

http://ds.ign.com/articles/109/1098713p1.html

they're probably talking about this demo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D92S9unF88

 

[SkinnyPupp]

Found some of the latest information on clock speeds and performance, so we should be able to draw a better conclusion now. Editing the article AGAIN

 

[M3d10n]

I have a question for the people who know the ins and outs of graphics tech RE: backward compatibility with the DS/DSi.

How did the DS / DSi handle graphics? I was under the impression that they were using twin ARM processors and no traditional GPU. What would the use of this chip mean for back-compatibility? Would it sit idle and let emulation be handled by the CPU?

The DS has a GPU. Software-rendering is not an option, since you need at least a Core2Duo to emulate a DS with software rendering at full speed.

And to anyone asking how this compare to TEV: the 3DS GPU has vertex shaders. This makes an enormous difference, and is the main reason the Xbox got Doom 3 and the GC didn't.

The Xbox didn't actually support pixel shaders, because pixel shader 1.1 is not programmable at all: it's still fixed function register combiners (which the TEV is). The 1.1 "shader language" was just a fancy way to setup the fixed register combiner stages. But the vertex shaders and cubemap support (which I hope the "position dependent reflections" in the DMP sheet means) made it far more flexible than the GC GPU.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Just port ZoE2 in 3D and I'll be happy.

I'm seeing a pattern here.

ZOE2 is mostly a particles-fest (lots of transparent particles IIRC) so, it is pure a fillrate limited scenario here IMHO.

PS2's GS targets a 60% greater resolution than 3DS in 3D mode, but has about 4x the untextured fill-rate per-clock (16 pixels per clock rendering untextured pixels, 8 pixels per clock in textured mode) and quite monstrous internal bandwidth. PS2 still has to be fully beaten on handhelds . We will see how 3DS's CPU will compare to the EE.

 

[Donnie]

You really think many games are going to have the cycles spare to run full 2x2 supersampling? Maybe if you want your games to look like they were built for the NDS. Supersampling is sloooooooooooooooooooow.

But if the 3DS does use the full 4 pixel pipeline chip at 200Mhz then it effectively has twice the fillrate of GC when you take the resolution difference into account (800x240 vs 640x480). Also GameCube/Wii's main problem with AA isn't fillrate but the fixed size of the memory that holds the frame/Z-buffers. So as long as 3DS has enough memory it may be capable of super sample AA where the likes of GC and Wii aren't.

 

[SkinnyPupp]

The DS has a GPU. Software-rendering is not an option, since you need at least a Core2Duo to emulate a DS with software rendering at full speed.

And to anyone asking how this compare to TEV: the 3DS GPU has vertex shaders. This makes an enormous difference, and is the main reason the Xbox got Doom 3 and the GC didn't.

The Xbox didn't actually support pixel shaders, because pixel shader 1.1 is not programmable at all: it's still fixed function register combiners (which the TEV is). The 1.1 "shader language" was just a fancy way to setup the fixed register combiner stages. But the vertex shaders and cubemap support (which I hope the "position dependent reflections" in the DMP sheet means) made it far more flexible than the GC GPU.

The DS had no GPU, its ARM9 did all the GPU work. So it is certain that the 3DS will include an ARM9 to maintain backwards compatibility of DS games. Whether they add to that, we're not sure.

BTW the DSi already has a faster ARM9 chip than the original DS and DS Lite (133 Mhz compared to 66 MHz). The clock speed is halved when playing DS games. The 3DS will probably do the same.

 

[Melville]

Peace Walker is an actual game.

PS: I hate your av

 

[spwolf]

so now graphics matter? ;-).

 

[curls]

Peace Walker is an actual game.

PS: I hate your av

I though this was an actual game?

 

[QuiteWhittle]

Peace Walker is an actual game.

PS: I hate your av

So is MGS: Snake Eater 3DS...?

 

[Panajev2001a]

so now graphics matter? ;-).

and magically... somehow... (and this is a pet peeve of mine ) creating PSP-level or better 3D content is now not a problem for game budgets anymore... .

 

[Panajev2001a]

The DS had no GPU

The DS has a GPU... and dedicated sprite related HW for 2D (evolved GBA sprite and BG handling block IIRC).

 

[Fafalada]

Also GameCube/Wii's main problem with AA isn't fillrate but the fixed size of the memory that holds the frame/Z-buffers.

It cut the fillrate in half for 3xAA. Whatever you call it, it was expensive, regardless of the memory requirements.

The DS had no GPU, its ARM9 did all the GPU work.

Yea, PS2 does all the rendering inside EE too.

 

[M3d10n]

The DS had no GPU, its ARM9 did all the GPU work. So it is certain that the 3DS will include an ARM9 to maintain backwards compatibility of DS games. Whether they add to that, we're not sure.

In what world you live where a 67MHz ARM9 can draw 2K triangles (clipped from a a larger scene) with texture perspective correction, alpha blending, stencil and edge anti-aliasing at 60fps?

Are you basing your statements on the lack of bilinear filtering? That was because the DS GPU was built around fixed point and not floating point, so there wasn't enough precision.

BTW, the NGage has a 100MHz ARM CPU and no GPU and are the graphics much worse and run slower than DS games.

 

[wsippel]

and magically... somehow... (and this is a pet peeve of mine ) creating PSP-level or better 3D content is now not a problem for game budgets anymore... .

It became obvious that developers prefer high budget, high performance to low budget, low performance, so who are we to complain?

 

[Panajev2001a]

It became obvious that developers prefer high budget, high performance to low budget, low performance, so who are we to complain?

GAF before 3DS was mentioned by Nintendo ?

 

[Panajev2001a]

It cut the fillrate in half for 3xAA. Whatever you call it, it was expensive, regardless of the memory requirements.

BTW, I cannot look at that specs sheet with a straight face anymore... that image on the bottom right well... :lol...

 

[SkinnyPupp]

In what world you live where a 67MHz ARM9 can draw 2K triangles (clipped from a a larger scene) with texture perspective correction, alpha blending, stencil and edge anti-aliasing at 60fps?

Are you basing your statements on the lack of bilinear filtering? That was because the DS GPU was built around fixed point and not floating point, so there wasn't enough precision.

BTW, the NGage has a 100MHz ARM CPU and no GPU and are the graphics much worse and run slower than DS games.

Sorry my brain must be scrambled today

 

[wsippel]

GAF before 3DS was mentioned by Nintendo ?

I gave up that line of thinking about one or two years after the Wii was released...

 

[DataBot]

Looks like 3DS uses the Maestro extensions not only the GPU .

http://www.dmprof.com/en/en_maestrotechnology.html


Mapping Maestro and Shading Maestro and can be seen in the MGS Tech Demo

Shadow Maestro (Includes selfshadowing) can be seen in Street Fighter 4

Particle Maestro (Clouds) is used in Kid Icarus

Figure Maestro

I dont know whats a good example for it... feel free to add it when when quoting me.

 

[tinfoilhatman]

Let me know when they build it into a phone, I already carry enough crap with me on my commute.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

so now graphics matter? ;-).

They always have, it's just a case of what kind of a leap people find acceptable from gen to gen, and what they're prepared to sacrifice for that jump. For me - and having had the benefit of a few years with it now - I think the Wii could have been fine, if at the very low end of what I'd consider an acceptable jump, if it had been easier to produce more complex effects, and if third parties had been prepared to put in the time and money to build strong Wii engines. As it was, a handful of third parties and Nintendo really pushed the system in tech and artstyle and the rest bodged it and we ended up with games that often looked worse than their GC/PS2 counterparts, and the average game just doesn't look acceptable for 2010 (although games like Mario Galaxy 2, Sin and Punishment etc. all stand up fine).

The 3DS jump seems to be pretty much in the middle of what I thought might be possible - it's not overpowered at the expense of battery life, or underpowered for reasons of cost - and it looks like it should be a dream to work with. It looks like (pending further info, of course) a nice balance between attractive graphics, added features, power consumption and ease of use, with - hopefully - a reasonable price tag - the perfect next-gen handheld.

 

[EatChildren]

Let me know when they build it into a phone, I already carry enough crap with me on my commute.

Never.

 

[Donnie]

It cut the fillrate in half for 3xAA. Whatever you call it, it was expensive, regardless of the memory requirements.


Yea, PS2 does all the rendering inside EE too.

I didn't say it wasn't expensive, just not the biggest reason why supersampling wasn't used. Maybe it would have been unusable on GC anyway but in that case we can talk about Wii instead. Which had the same features, a higher fillrate but the same memory limit and also didn't use SSAA as far as I know. Really I'm only saying that as long as 3DS doesn't have the same memory limit then we can't rule out the possibility of SSAA being used (considering 3DS's fillrate could very well be comparatively higher then GC or Wii).

 

[big_z]

I don't think Nintendo have ever done that, they always pick something and then have things added, not removed.

no they've consistently dumbed down the chipsets they use in their hardware. they dont remove features but will lower clock speeds and the like. they've never added stuff.

Let me know when they build it into a phone, I already carry enough crap with me on my commute.

im surprised they dont go mobile, even if only in japan where doing so would make sense.

 

[Santiako]

3D cliff racers yes yes yes.

I can hear them! The nightmares are coming back! Cliff Racers everywhere! D:

 

[volmer]

it may be capable of super sample AA where the likes of GC and Wii aren't.

This is not correct. It's obviously not very efficient, but you can do SSAA on GCN/Wii. One way to archieve this is by rendering the geometry multiple times, each time with a slightly modified view frustum, and each time copying to texture. The final image is then produced by sampling and averaging these textures across a full-screen quad. The number of samples per-pixel is determined by the number of times you render the scene, and the sample pattern is determined by how you jitter the view frustum. For example, for 2x SSAA (2x2 grid) you'll need 4 geometry passes plus 1 pass for averaging. It's not practical, but it is possible.

 

[Eteric Rice]

no they've consistently dumbed down the chipsets they use in their hardware. they dont remove features but will lower clock speeds and the like. they've never added stuff.




im surprised they dont go mobile, even if only in japan where doing so would make sense.

Why do they lower the clock speeds? -_-

 

[Cdammen]

Why do they lower the clock speeds? -_-

To increase battery life?

 

[plagiarize]

Why do they lower the clock speeds? -_-

because they care about efficiency.

that translates into rock solid and reliable home consoles and better battery life for their portables.

it prevents RROD or PSP battery life type scenarios.

no bad thing if you ask me.

 

[Donnie]

no they've consistently dumbed down the chipsets they use in their hardware. they dont remove features but will lower clock speeds and the like. they've never added stuff.




im surprised they dont go mobile, even if only in japan where doing so would make sense.

For GC's CPU they took a PowerPC chip and added extra instructions to speed up certain tasks. Sorry but its just not true to say they never add anything. They take a part and customise it to do more of what they want it to do, that can mean lowering clock speed for lower power consumption or adding instructions to make it better at something they need to do.

 

[big_z]

To increase battery life?

that, reduce heat, reduce cost, etc.

For GC's CPU they took a PowerPC chip and added extra instructions to speed up certain tasks. Sorry but its just not true to say they never add anything. They take a part and customise it to do more of what they want it to do, that can mean lowering clock speed for lower power consumption or adding instructions to make it better at something they need to do.

the powerPC chip they were originaly using was gimped before nintendo gave final specs. ign ran multiple stories on it back in the day. they also crippled the n64 heavily before launch.

 

[plagiarize]

Are we comparing phony screenshots from canned non-playable demos to actual games now?

i think it's fair to point out that tech demoes put together in a few months, even none playable ones, tend to be surpassed by actual playable games later on, even if not in the first software generation.

look at pretty much any real time tech demo shown on a console prior to it's launch in the past.

playable or not, the 3DS will achieve this level of graphics in a playable game and it'll more than likely surpass them.

 

[Donnie]

This is not correct. It's obviously not very efficient, but you can do SSAA on GCN/Wii. One way to archieve this is by rendering the geometry multiple times, each time with a slightly modified view frustum, and each time copying to texture. The final image is then produced by sampling and averaging these textures across a full-screen quad. The number of samples per-pixel is determined by the number of times you render the scene, and the sample pattern is determined by how you jitter the view frustum. For example, for 2x SSAA (2x2 grid) you'll need 4 geometry passes plus 1 pass for averaging. It's not practical, but it is possible.

That line of my post is out of context. I know SSAA on GC and Wii was technically possible. I'm talking about what GC was capable on in games.

 

[Donnie]

that, reduce heat, reduce cost, etc.



the powerPC chip they were originaly using was gimped before nintendo gave final specs. ign ran multiple stories on it back in the day. they also crippled the n64 heavily before launch.

They took a PowerPC 750CXe, which was a chip already created by IBM, and then added instructions to it to speed up certain tasks. How is that dumbing it down through customization?

 

[Luigiv]

I'm pretty sure the 3DS's final specs will be fine. I mean we've already seen the thing in action and it looks great, so really having a few more numbers means nothing.

You guys do realise the chip set has itself improve since 2006 right? I mean look at the difference between the 2006 spec sheet and the 2008 spec sheet. in those 2 years the poly count quintupled and the max speed doubled and that was just at 65nm. If the chip set has been adapted to 45nm then expect it's maximum capabilities to be even better. Sure Nintendo won't be using the maximum capabilities but does that really matter? Nintendo does have manufacturing costs and battery life to worry about, and the best solution will be the one that strikes the right balance between the 3, not the most power.

 

[GDGF]

Reading about the samurai techdemo is rather interesting. The floor for example is not a texture and uses no RAM or bandwidth. The pattern is generated on the fly by the GPU.

That's pretty freaking sweet right there. Procedural texturing, I assume?

 

[Casual Gamera]

....I will shit bricks. Looks soooo good in 3D <3

:\

 

[wsippel]

That's pretty freaking sweet right there. Procedural texturing, I assume?

Exactly. Memory efficiency and bandwidth reduction seem to be two of the defining features of this GPU, that's why they built in dedicated logic to generate procedural textures and tesselate geometry. A lot of stuff can be done without any actual assets - you just pass a couple of parameters to the GPU and it generates what you need on the fly.

 

[Datschge]

im surprised they dont go mobile, even if only in japan where doing so would make sense.

Shows how much you know about the Japanese mobile market.

 

[EVH]

:\

What is this? Looks like a turd.

 

[camineet]

Is this a good GPU? How does it compare to Flipper in Gamecube / Hollywood in Wii ?

 

[Vilix]

I'm not a handheld fan. But, I honestly believe I'm going to have to get this. Even if it's just to see F-Zero 3D.

 

[Lonely1]

so now graphics matter? ;-).

Can we leave away this crap from tech threads, plz?

 

[Kunan]

2006

2008


Anyone else notice that greatly improved poly performance is between these 2 revisions? It went from 15 million triangles a second @ 200MHz to 40 million triangles a second @ 100 MHz. Who knows what the performance will be of the 3DS's chip .

Also the power usage is insanely small. At 400 MHz the thing would only consume between 0.2 and 0.4 Watts. And that's how things were 2 years ago.

Damn if it's using the 2008 one that's a much bigger deal!