That's why I like indies on console. It's like a "best of" list from the indie scene.
That's why I like indies on console. It's like a "best of" list from the indie scene.
So you quit what you loved doing because you weren't payed enough? Maybe you never really loved it?
So you quit what you loved doing because you weren't payed enough? Maybe you never really loved it?
I'm so happy I got out of this industry (games, animation, vfx) Loved creating art but wages were just dogshit :/
So you quit what you loved doing because you weren't payed enough? Maybe you never really loved it?
There's no actual way to poll anything like this but this is my gut feeling as well.I'd like to see what percentage of those that earned less than $500 are actually any good.
Yes, precisely.Could the true results be even worse overall, though? From the pdf--
We also excluded cases in which the compensation was given as less than $10,000 USD
That implies there could be a whole lot of tilt/variation and/or jobs that ultimately ended up being part-time work (or total busts) that were simply filtered out despite being a primary or only source of income for people.
Let me play a bit of devil's advocate: I'd like to see what percentage of those that earned above 200K were good.I'd like to see what percentage of those that earned less than $500 are actually any good.
So you quit what you loved doing because you weren't payed enough? Maybe you never really loved it?
Are those from the main arcade section or from the ghetto section of the 360? The 360 opening up part of the console for hobbyists to make games isn't exactly what I was referring to.
Are you able to compile a similar list of shitty games on PS3, XBO, Vita, Wii-U, or PS4?
I don't own a PS3 or PS4 or Vita, but I'm sure there's some shit up on the store as well.
There's always some good with the bad, just pointing out that there isn't just good on console indie markets.
So you quit what you loved doing because you weren't payed enough? Maybe you never really loved it?
I see this as a positive. The earlier the indie bubble bursts the better for actualy talented people who make good games. Ther's just way too much trash on app stores, steam etc. due to this gold rush, making it harder and harder for good games to get noticed in this ocean of shit.
I see the bubble bursting, but I don't know if what you considered "talented people who make good games" will still be around. As pointed out before in another article about indie bubble, there were 104 indie titles, in one PAX. If you consider this set of games as curated "good games", I wonder if anyone would like to follow up on how these games are, how these people are doing, and whether they are still sticking to making indie happen for them. My gut feeling is that if 50% of them are still around and still churning out games, you should consider that a success.The earlier the indie bubble bursts the better for actualy talented people who make good games.
I see this as a positive. The earlier the indie bubble bursts the better for actualy talented people who make good games. Ther's just way too much trash on app stores, steam etc. due to this gold rush, making it harder and harder for good games to get noticed in this ocean of shit.
I hope the bubble continues to grow. Discoverability problems won't change with what you call a burst of the indie bubble but availability will improve if it keeps growing. And independent developers will never disappear, they always existed. Their notability and importance is much more visible now, but that is incidental to the current industry environment.
I definitely sympathize, but the issue is that people have such a huge amount to play nowadays that there's not much value in adding yet another game to their backlogs. Like, you can get plenty of big, well-received, lengthy, recent-ish AAA games for super-cheap. Once you have dozens of unplayed, probably-great games on your Steam account, why buy stuff at any price other than dirt cheap? If it's something really unusual that you need to play immediately, sure, buy it. If it's $5 or less, sure, buy it. Otherwise, why not wait?Game valuation for indie/PC games is getting pretty nuts. It concerns me that people are willing to pay 8 dollars for a cup of coffee that takes 2 minutes and little skill to make, vs a game that takes multiple people YEARS to make and a multitude of technical skills that are not easy to acquire.
Not every 2D platformer made in someone's basement is successful. Shocker.
I definitely sympathize, but the issue is that people have such a huge amount to play nowadays that there's not much value in adding yet another game to their backlogs. Like, you can get plenty of big, well-received, lengthy, recent-ish AAA games for super-cheap. Once you have dozens of unplayed, probably-great games on your Steam account, why buy stuff at any price other than dirt cheap? If it's something really unusual that you need to play immediately, sure, buy it. If it's $5 or less, sure, buy it. Otherwise, why not wait?
Game valuation for indie/PC games is getting pretty nuts. It concerns me that people are willing to pay 8 dollars for a cup of coffee that takes 2 minutes and little skill to make, vs a game that takes multiple people YEARS to make and a multitude of technical skills that are not easy to acquire.
Mind you I'm talking about quality games, not shovel ware flappy bird crap.
Thanks for sharing your insights. I've felt very similarly upon the issue of game valuation and how many just do not seem to realize how much it costs to make a game, and then have a problem spending anything over $10 (yet they'll spend tons on stuff like coffee and beer, but go figure), with some even going as far to start spouting "greedy devs" otherwise. Devs are not making a lot of money, and as noted, in places like San Francisco, you won't get very far on that income comparative to other industries.As an indie with a full time job:
I think times are getting harder for indies. Expectations are sky high and the money people want to pay for them is getting smaller and smaller. Having a full time job and doing indie dev in my spare time, having a wife and a dog (no kids yet) is really hard. Your relationships suffer, your social life suffers, because your spare time is no longer spare time, its another job.
So think about this: Some people, like me, will continue making games because they love to do it. But it will take years and years (I'm going on 3 now) to release their games because everyone is part time. The investment of money, let alone time, put into these games is definitely not even close to breaking even.
Personally, I'll be happy to make my own money back and maybe get a bit of cash to put on the next project so I don't need to go into my savings anymore. But that said, "getting my money back" doesn't account for 99% of what I'm giving up, which is: Years of my life spent on a project, time I could be spending with my wife, friends and relaxing. Years I could be working on the side as a contractor and making a TON of cash.
So will lots of indies continue to pop up if the market caves in? I don't think so. Look at the modding scene a few years ago. It's picking up now a lot, but why? Because games like TF2 and DOTA 2 are letting people earn money from it. If they stopped earning money, what then? It gets significantly smaller, and the quality of MOST mods/games becomes lower, because fewer people are willing to make the time/money investments for such little returns.
Game valuation for indie/PC games is getting pretty nuts. It concerns me that people are willing to pay 8 dollars for a cup of coffee that takes 2 minutes and little skill to make, vs a game that takes multiple people YEARS to make and a multitude of technical skills that are not easy to acquire.
Mind you I'm talking about quality games, not shovel ware flappy bird crap.
Stupid, knee-jerk response.
Go into one of Toma's indie game threads and look at the games.
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I'm not saying I don't understand it, I totally do, I'm a gamer too, despite how little time I have to play nowadays.
I think the problem is that people are shifting from the feeling of "oh cool, I can get THIS great game for 5 bucks! What a steal!" to "Hey this game just released and its 15 dollars. What a ripoff, I bought X AAA game that's 2 years old for the same price last week and this is nowhere near as good"
People come to expect to get the same quality for equal or less than other games. The thing people seem to forget is that these same AAA games that are now 5 dollars were 60 dollars on release and already made their money, and are now picking up the scraps they can before fading away.
The problem this presents to indies is that these AAA games going for such low prices increase gamer expectations in respect to value for their money (this indie has worse graphics and costs the same) and while as a consumer this is a reasonable behavior, the end result will be developers quitting and not bothering trying to match the quality.
It's a big race to the bottom and what bugs me is that *we already know where it leads*. This exact same thing happened to the mobile market, started out with more expensive, paid games/apps. Race to the bottom and fast forward a few years and we end up with a market full of shovel ware crap and a couple of paid games a year that can command only 2 or 3 dollars per sale.
I think money talks. If as consumers we want to pay less, then developers, not just indies, will say "ok, but now you get this thing instead of this other thing instead".
I'm personally not ok with that. I'd rather pay a reasonable price for a good game, than a dollar for App Store garbage. This is why I don't play any mobile games :-/
Thanks for sharing -- I think this is a pretty reasonable assessment.I'm not saying I don't understand it, I totally do, I'm a gamer too, despite how little time I have to play nowadays.
I think the problem is that people are shifting from the feeling of "oh cool, I can get THIS great game for 5 bucks! What a steal!" to "Hey this game just released and its 15 dollars. What a ripoff, I bought X AAA game that's 2 years old for the same price last week and this is nowhere near as good"
People come to expect to get the same quality for equal or less than other games. The thing people seem to forget is that these same AAA games that are now 5 dollars were 60 dollars on release and already made their money, and are now picking up the scraps they can before fading away.
The problem this presents to indies is that these AAA games going for such low prices increase gamer expectations in respect to value for their money (this indie has worse graphics and costs the same) and while as a consumer this is a reasonable behavior, the end result will be developers quitting and not bothering trying to match the quality.
It's a big race to the bottom and what bugs me is that *we already know where it leads*. This exact same thing happened to the mobile market, started out with more expensive, paid games/apps. Race to the bottom and fast forward a few years and we end up with a market full of shovel ware crap and a couple of paid games a year that can command only 2 or 3 dollars per sale.
I think money talks. If as consumers we want to pay less, then developers, not just indies, will say "ok, but now you get this thing instead of this other thing instead".
I'm personally not ok with that. I'd rather pay a reasonable price for a good game, than a dollar for App Store garbage. This is why I don't play any mobile games :-/
That is the reality of the market though. $15 indie games have to compete against older, larger, games for the same dollar.
If I have the option of Shovel Knight or Black Flag... I'm taking Black Flag. That sucks for indie developers, but that is the free market at work.
So you quit what you loved doing because you weren't payed enough? Maybe you never really loved it?
That's why I like indies on console. It's like a "best of" list from the indie scene.
I wonder what's up with the complaints about low salaries, though (for non-indies, I assume). Is $83,000 actually low compared to other industries doing the same kind of work (programming, art, etc.)?
So you quit what you loved doing because you weren't payed enough? Maybe you never really loved it?