Support NeoGAF

[Kapura]

Probably would have helped if you read, you know, the whole thing.

I did read it. Those were bullshit arguments "WERE YOU EVER A CHILD?" what utter wank. That's not what they're talking about. We're talking about the people who took loans out to get through college, studied their ass off, never tried to cheat or piggyback on others work, busted their ass writing and handing out their resume and were rewarded for it. This is compared to people who always asked to see others' homework, had their parents paying for university, and they spent all of their time drinking and partying. After they get an easy bachelors, they then ask for jobs in places their friends work at, and slack off all day.

Neither example composes the entire side, but you need to acknowledge that there is SOME truth in it.

 

[Oblivion]

They said it's implied based on the "I worked hard" quotes.

It's not.. it's really reaching.

I read the "friggin article."

It's also extremely poorly constructed. They are a bit all over the place within each "point."

Fair enough, I suppose.

 

[Manager]

This article about Bill Gates was burried in there, I recommend it to anyone who is a student, IT interested or... well, anyone:
http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2011/05/paul-allen-201105

It's about the start of Microsoft, about all the hours they had to put in etc. A motivating read.

Bob Greenberg, a Harvard classmate of Bill’s whom we’d hired, once put in 81 hours in four days, Monday through Thursday, to finish part of the Texas Instruments BASIC. When Bill touched base toward the end of Bob’s marathon, he asked him, “What are you working on tomorrow?”

Bob said, “I was planning to take the day off.”

And Bill said, “Why would you want to do that?” He genuinely couldn’t understand it; he never seemed to need to recharge.

edit

Our company was still small in 1978, and Bill and I worked hand in glove as the decision-making team. My style was to absorb all the data I could to make the best-informed decision possible, sometimes to the point of over-analysis. Bill liked to hash things out in intense, one-on-one discussions; he thrived on conflict and wasn’t shy about instigating it. A few of us cringed at the way he’d demean people and force them to defend their positions. If what he heard displeased him, he’d shake his head and say sarcastically, “Oh, I suppose that means we’ll lose the contract, and then what?” When someone ran late on a job, he had a stock response: “I could code that in a weekend!”

And if you hadn’t thought through your position or Bill was just in a lousy mood, he’d resort to his classic put-down: “That’s the stupidest fucking thing I’ve ever heard!”

wow lol.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

I read a study that said most millionaires (more than half) are extremely frugal self made first generation millionaires that put they're career goals over family/friends/entertainment - in terms of hours of dedication.

I wish I could find it.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

I love how he asks his rich strawman if he is 6 yrs old then proceeds to spout a 6 yr old level of understanding on wealth, economics and the goals of redistributive tax policies.

This entire article is one childish and ignorant fallacy on top of another.

It is a fact that we live in an interdependent society, which is the basis for many of his arguments. It is a fact that there are forces outside of our control that partially determine the outcomes of our lives. Understanding this is neither childish nor ignorant.

I'm sure some of his arguments are weaker than others, but I was impressed overall with the way he integrated psychological and social facts into his arguments.

I read a study that said most millionaires (more than half) are extremely frugal self made first generation millionaires that put they're career goals over family/friends/entertainment - in terms of hours of dedication.

I wish I could find it.

The article doesn't argue against the idea that rich people have worked hard to get where they are. It argues that even the most "self-made" millionaire benefited from being part of society (as well as factors outside of their control) and should acknowledge that.

 

[jbbb]

 

[thekad]

But not all people bother to make the most of whatever "shit" they are given.

You're arguing against a strawman. No one has said that everyone who hasn't "made it" has only not done so due to external factors. We're merely stating that you cannot ignore these factors when talking about pulling yourself up by bootstraps handed down by your parents.

I did read it. Those were bullshit arguments "WERE YOU EVER A CHILD?" what utter wank. That's not what they're talking about. We're talking about the people who took loans out to get through college, studied their ass off, never tried to cheat or piggyback on others work, busted their ass writing and handing out their resume and were rewarded for it. This is compared to people who always asked to see others' homework, had their parents paying for university, and they spent all of their time drinking and partying. After they get an easy bachelors, they then ask for jobs in places their friends work at, and slack off all day.

Neither example composes the entire side, but you need to acknowledge that there is SOME truth in it.

Where did the money those banks loaned come from?

 

[nVidiot_Whore]

Fair enough, I suppose.

Honestly, re-read the section for the "I worked hard" quotes. They keep going on and on with all of these "implications" without showing any quotes that have anything to do with the implications.

Yes, some people do believe those things..but claiming you personally worked hard to get where you are should not be insulting to anyone who doesn't have a huge chip on their shoulder, and certainly shouldn't imply that you think all people making less money are losers.

 

[Houston3000]

I'm not rich, not at all... currently building myself out of a small debt actually.

Still, I understand there are at least two kind of rich people. There are rich people who were born into a wealthy family, who's parents had a college fund for them and bought them cars, who went to an Ivy League College after years of private tutoring, where they then graduated and got a job working for their dad's business partner starting at 5 figures and quickly moving into 6. There's also rich people who were born into low or middle class families, often times "nerds" or "jocks", who used their exceptional skills and/or smarts to excel in school without the financial help of their mom and dad, and get a job that paid them a lot of money when they grew older. I understand that even people who worked hard for their money are only rich because they were in the right place at the right time, performing a task that was considered more valuable (financially at least) despite it not always being more laborious. Unfortunately though I think both these sort of people get grouped together by the larger masses and it isn't fair. This article is great but I'm not liking the whole "hate on rich people" trend going around in general

 

[Bossun]

Stop raging because you're lazy. Work instead of complaining.

Seriously, some people succeeded on hard work, occasions and sacrifices. It is obviously not the ones who we hear about every time, but I hate to break it to you : they do exist...

 

[Kapura]

Where did the money those banks loaned come from?

The Fed?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I did read it. Those were bullshit arguments "WERE YOU EVER A CHILD?" what utter wank. That's not what they're talking about. We're talking about the people who took loans out to get through college, studied their ass off, never tried to cheat or piggyback on others work, busted their ass writing and handing out their resume and were rewarded for it. This is compared to people who always asked to see others' homework, had their parents paying for university, and they spent all of their time drinking and partying. After they get an easy bachelors, they then ask for jobs in places their friends work at, and slack off all day.

Neither example composes the entire side, but you need to acknowledge that there is SOME truth in it.

A couple of people are talking about this, and I think the point is slightly missed. I don't think he was hinting that everyone works as hard as everyone else, or that Marxism is the correct ideology, or anything along those lines. I don't necessarily think he was targeting people in an insular community wherein you can point out that Person A and Person B do the same thing at the same company. Person A is better and works harder, and is paid better. Is he calling this out as unfair? No.

He's targeting society at large. You might suggest that he's being a little disingenuous, but I think the scope of the article is being misunderstood. His point was pretty simple. There were suggestions that are pretty clear: there's not room for everyone at the top, and we need people to do the jobs that we think don't deserve handsome salaries. In that light, I think his point is clear and fair: it's not fair for an investment banker (for example) to act as though it's merely hard work that allows him to command such a high salary compared to -- say -- a nurse who might also work very long hours, or even lower in the food chain, a janitor working long hours.

Maybe the person did work harder, but they're not even really playing the same game at that point. The idea that every janitor has the same chance is insincere, and the implication that pay is linearly proportionate to hard work is insulting.

None of this really attempts to address what I suspect some think is being ignored: all other things equal, it's understandable why harder work would be rewarded with higher pay. That's true, sure. But the main crux of the issue is that not all other things are equal.

 

[jaxword]

Stop raging because you're lazy. Work instead of complaining.

Seriously, some people succeeded on hard work, occasions and sacrifices. It is obviously not the ones who we hear about every time, but I hate to break it to you : they do exist...

Yeah, hear that guys? Internet economics expert Bossun has cracked the code. You're all just lazy.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Stop raging because you're lazy. Work instead of complaining.

Seriously, some people succeeded on hard work, occasions and sacrifices. It is obviously not the ones who we hear about every time, but I hate to break it to you : they do exist...

No one ever denied this. Did you read the article? Its point is more nuanced than that.

 

[that1dude24]

I read it, and addressed what they said in that section, had you actually bothered to read my posts.

As I said before, and I'll elaborate:

They are reaching with their "implication".. someone pointing out that they worked hard to get to where they are shouldn't be insulting to anyone.. doesn't imply that plenty of other people work hard to no ends, etc.

you're correct - it shouldn't be insulting by itself, but using it as a rebuttal to furthering egalitarian policies in government (which is closer to the point of the article - and the driving reason he went for political or press quotations) is quite insulting

perhaps he should have clarified - or maybe he didn't think that far. i dunno.

 

[Gr1mLock]

Love it. I wonder how many filthy rich people think they'd be just as rich if they were born in some African tribe? Since it has nothing to do with society around you, luck or help. It's all about being born awesome and if you are poor, you just need to start being awesome.

Well DUUH. When they write articles about how hard life is for public workers the very first thing that flies out of people's mouths is 'well tough learn to live within your means', yet when the exact same article is written about investment bankers who make 5 mil a year, who complain about the rent on park ave, nanny services etc the first shit out of people's mouths is 'oh well it might SEEM like he has money but when you factor in his LIFESTYLE!'.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Honestly, re-read the section for the "I worked hard" quotes. They keep going on and on with all of these "implications" without showing any quotes that have anything to do with the implications.

Yes, some people do believe those things..but claiming you personally worked hard to get where you are should not be insulting to anyone who doesn't have a huge chip on their shoulder, and certainly shouldn't imply that you think all people making less money are losers.

Well that's how the world is today. It's a sad truthful fact. I'm of the mind that where you are in life largely depends on decisions that you yourself have made. Yes, other people effect you in ways, and certainly sometimes in unfortunate ways, but like birds or ships, while we can be blown off course, we mostly use that wind to help us get to where we consciously or subconsciously decide to go.

People these days are too self-conscious about their crappy position in life. I'm in a terribly crappy position but I know its largely due to my unhealthy habits/attitudes.

 

[The Technomancer]

Alright, a bit too subtle there...

 

[LyleLanley]

Honestly, re-read the section for the "I worked hard" quotes. They keep going on and on with all of these "implications" without showing any quotes that have anything to do with the implications.

Yes, some people do believe those things..but claiming you personally worked hard to get where you are should not be insulting to anyone who doesn't have a huge chip on their shoulder, and certainly shouldn't imply that you think all people making less money are losers.

I think the point is that saying "I worked hard" isn't telling the full story. Lots of people work hard and work lots of hours but most of them don't end up rich. Whether or not it's insulting isn't that important.

 

[Bossun]

To all of you my first sentence was ironic...

I'm just stating that hard working sometimes pays off. It's a multiplication of differents factor but nonetheless it can happens. My father is an example of succeeding through hard work and being at the right place at the right time.

 

[thezerofire]

Stop raging because you're lazy. Work instead of complaining.

Seriously, some people succeeded on hard work, occasions and sacrifices. It is obviously not the ones who we hear about every time, but I hate to break it to you : they do exist...

edit: too subtle for me haha

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

To all of you my first sentence was ironic...

It read quite coherently with the second part, so I could not tell.

I'm just stating that hard working sometimes pays off. It's a multiplication of differents factor but nonetheless it can happens. My father is an example of succeeding through hard work and being at the right place at the right time.

And that's exactly the point that's being missed by some.

I guess I'm not sure whether you were arguing for or against something or just clarifying one of the article's points.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Love it. I wonder how many filthy rich people think they'd be just as rich if they were born in some African tribe? Since it has nothing to do with society around you, luck or help. It's all about being born awesome and if you are poor, you just need to start being awesome.

http://www.thezimbabwemail.com/zimb...ominated-oprah-s-alltime-favourate-guest.html

Just sayin duude. It's not about being awesome. It's about having a dream and not giving up. Not letting others tell you its not possible, not your circumstances or anything else. This attitude feeds determination, drive, and ultimately is the catalyst for success.

 

[KHarvey16]

Honestly, re-read the section for the "I worked hard" quotes. They keep going on and on with all of these "implications" without showing any quotes that have anything to do with the implications.

Yes, some people do believe those things..but claiming you personally worked hard to get where you are should not be insulting to anyone who doesn't have a huge chip on their shoulder, and certainly shouldn't imply that you think all people making less money are losers.

Of course saying it implies something. If you say you worked hard to get what you have in the context of a discussion concerning the topic of the article, there is absolutely no reason to do that other than offering it as a distinguishing factor. When discussing who is rich and why, simply stating "I have what I have because I worked hard." clearly, obviously, explicitly implies that's all it took. That isn't some subjective interpretation, it's what the damn sentence means.

If their central thesis is that hard work is all you need to be successful, the inescapable logical result is that those who are not successful cannot have worked hard.

 

[The Technomancer]

"I deserve what I have because I worked hard to get it" either means that you think other people who work hard don't always get what they deserve or else that people who work hard get what they deserve and those who don't have as much as you don't work as hard.

 

[remnant]

External factors were involved in someone being wealthy. So the fuck what. A 30 year old 'rich" person was born into the same marketplace as the 30 "poor" person. i don't buy this argument that external factors are so weighted in this scenario that it's only thing that is important.

We could have all been born in Bangladesh. We weren't. It's irrelevant

it's not fair for an investment banker (for example) to act as though it's merely hard work that allows him to command such a hard salary compared to -- say -- a nurse who might also work very long hours, or even lower in the food chain, a janitor working long hours.

Investment bankers are not paid the way they are because they work long hours(despite the fact they do.) It's because they can do something people are willing to pay far more money for than a janitor can.

Why compare an investment banker to a nurse? Wouldn't a doctor make more sense? It's almost like the article is poorly written on purpose to guide the reader to a certain PoV.

 

[jenov4]

This article about Bill Gates was burried in there, I recommend it to anyone who is a student, IT interested or... well, anyone:
http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2011/05/paul-allen-201105

It's about the start of Microsoft, about all the hours they had to put in etc. A motivating read.



edit


wow lol.

Awesome read. Thanks for posting.

 

[Bossun]

"I deserve what I have because I worked hard to get it" either means that you think other people who work hard don't always get what they deserve or else that people who work hard get what they deserve and those who don't have as much as you don't work as hard.

Or it can mean you don't think that you are stealing what you deserve and you shouldn't feel bad about it.

 

[remnant]

"I deserve what I have because I worked hard to get it" either means that you think other people who work hard don't always get what they deserve or else that people who work hard get what they deserve and those who don't have as much as you don't work as hard.

Show me the middle class or even poor people who are willing to give up the things they have worked, saved and bought.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

External factors were involved in someone being wealthy. So the fuck what. A 30 year old 'rich" person was born into the same marketplace as the 30 "poor" person. i don't buy this argument that external factors are so weighted in this scenario that it's only thing that is important.

We could have all been born in Bangladesh. We weren't. It's irrelevant

Investment bankers are not paid the way they are because they work long hours(despite the fact they do.) It's because they can do something people are willing to pay far more money for than a janitor can.

Why compare an investment banker to a nurse? Wouldn't a doctor make more sense? It's almost like the article is poorly written on purpose to guide the reader to a certain PoV.

You don't have to buy it because nobody made that argument. It seems like your post was poorly written on purpose to guide the reader to a certain PoV.

 

[thekad]

remnant's post jesus christ...

 

[dave is ok]

External factors were involved in someone being wealthy. So the fuck what. A 30 year old 'rich" person was born into the same marketplace as the 30 "poor" person. i don't buy this argument that external factors are so weighted in this scenario that it's only thing that is important.

Oh god

 

[The Technomancer]

Or it can mean you don't think that you are stealing what you deserve and you shouldn't feel bad about it.

That doesn't work as a contradiction to either of the positions I proposed. Its fine to think that you deserve what you have because of hard work. But I don't see how you can claim that and not hold either of those positions. I hold the first: that people who work hard don't always get what they deserve. And I think that that's wrong, that is to say something we as a society should consider one of our areas to improve on.

 

[that1dude24]

Show me the middle class or even poor people who are willing to give up the things they have worked, saved and bought.

they do it when they pay their bills

 

[Omegasquash]

Show me the middle class or even poor people who are willing to give up the things they have worked, saved and bought.

rockclapping.gif

 

[Vermillion]

Whoa, why was sunflower banned?

EDIT:

Also, this is a really good article.

 

[nVidiot_Whore]

you're correct - it shouldn't be insulting by itself, but using it as a rebuttal to furthering egalitarian policies in government (which is closer to the point of the article - and the driving reason he went for political or press quotations) is quite insulting

Which is why I added my own caveat, that I don't whine about taxes. I support pre-Bush tax brackets despite the fact it would lower my take home pay by several thousand dollars, etc.

I don't think the article did a good job of defining a real point. They wanted to be a "list of dumb things to say" article, and then didn't do a good job of defining what context the statements they listed are actually offensive. And most of what they claim is offensive are completely different statements than the ones listed, based on loosely claiming the original statement "implies" all of the offensive blurbs.

They even added a little blurb about "well this is where people will stop reading and complain without reading further"... and then.. just continued to claim all of these "insinuations" without any explanation for them.

Of course saying it implies something. If you say you worked hard to get what you have in the context of a discussion concerning the topic of the article, there is absolutely no reason to do that other than offering it as a distinguishing factor. When discussing who is rich and why, simply stating "I have what I have because I worked hard." clearly, obviously, explicitly implies that's all it took. That isn't some subjective interpretation, it's what the damn sentence means.

OK, you just stated the bold.. and then didn't explain whatsoever how it implies anything.. you even went on to add "it's what the damn sentence means."

Yes, I have what I have because I worked hard means I have what I have because I worked hard.

Now why does that IMPLY anything other than a statement of fact about yourself? Obviously it's a really simple statement, that requires elaboration.. but it's not worth getting upset or offended over, or trying to claim some implication.

Sure.. someone might be better off qualifying their statement.. "One of the reasons I got to where I am today is because of how hard I worked."

But on the flip side, people shouldn't be so quick to get offended over simple unqualified statements.

If their central thesis is that hard work is all you need to be successful, the inescapable logical result is that those who are not successful cannot have worked hard.

Saying you got to where you are because YOU worked hard isn't the same as saying "hard work is all you need to be successful."

I guess people shouldn't work hard, the concept is offensive.

 

[Miggytronz]

in the right place at the right time

Most of my friends who are "Rich", this pretty much happened.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

they do it when they pay their bills

That REALLY went over your head. I mean. What he said is in orbit isn't it?

 

[remnant]

You don't have to buy it because nobody made that argument. It seems like your post was poorly written on purpose to guide the reader to a certain PoV.

Except the article this thread is based off of.

they do it when they pay their bills

Pay bills for services they use.

 

[that1dude24]

That REALLY went over your head. I mean. What he said is in orbit isn't it?

i don't get his post at all - help me out here

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Except the article this thread is based off of.

You mean "based on," and you are wrong, in any case. The article never denied that hard work and success are related. It denied that they are perfectly related to the exclusion of other factors - a claim which is incontrovertible.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I guess people shouldn't work hard, the concept is offensive.

That's not the point and I think you know that.

 

[Htown]

Pay bills for services they use.

Yeah, for services. They need to get off all this optional crap like running water, and electricity, and heating in the winter. Don't buy services you can't afford, jeez.

 

[dinazimmerman]

re: "hard work"

Laziness is a proximate cause for poverty in many cases. This is not a reason to give up on reducing poverty through policy, but ignoring this fact makes the fight against poverty more difficult. A priority in the fight against poverty should be to help poor children learn "soft" skills like a good work ethic, which is a necessary though not sufficient condition to improving one's economic status.

 

[TheSeks]

I always find this annoying as well
http://i.imgur.com/iFzWf.jpg

My brain is full of fuck.jpg

What the hell, please tell me Fakeny didn't really say that.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

i don't get it at all - help me out here

Not that I agree with his entire post, but he's saying no one wants to give up things they have saved for, worked for, or bought.

You're not giving up money per se when you pay your bills. These are services that you have agreed to pay for, i.e buy. People these days work TO buy.

 

[Bossun]

That doesn't work as a contradiction to either of the positions I proposed. Its fine to think that you deserve what you have because of hard work. But I don't see how you can claim that and not hold either of those positions. I hold the first: that people who work hard don't always get what they deserve. And I think that that's wrong, that is to say something we as a society should consider one of our areas to improve on.

I'm not saying that all rich people are rich because of hard work and I am well aware that some people work their ass off and still have difficulties making ends meet. That is unfair.

I'm just saying that it's a bit easy to say all rich people are rich because of help. It kind of insults my father and what he did to get where he is now.

 

[nVidiot_Whore]

That's not the point and I think you know that.

I know, it was facetious.. hopefully obviously so.

Here's my point: If someone actually tells you that you aren't wealthy because you didn't work hard.. sure, get offended if you want. But you shouldn't have to qualify every word out of your mouth for the sake of someone getting offended based on some imagined "implication."

There are plenty of wealthy assholes saying asshole things for asshole reasons.. they go well beyond the "quotes" they tried to base the article on, and that's where I think it's a bit poorly constructed.

In the end, I'm mostly just commenting on the article itself.. I wasn't blown away by it like some of you were, I found it fairly poorly constructed, and much of it is just rather obvious. These are things that have been discussed ad museum.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm not saying that all rich people are rich because of hard work and I am well aware that some people work their ass off and still have difficulties making ends meet. That is unfair.

I'm just saying that it's a bit easy to say all rich people are rich because of help. It kind of insults my father and what he did to get where he is now.

Sure, but disliking the phrase "I got where I am because of hard work" does not intrinsically carry the sentiment that you got where you are without hard work.