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[Hoo-doo]

No, u mad?

You're lifting this discussion to a great level here. Thanks.

 

[eznark]

I mean, there's nothing inherently "flawed" about this study. The goals are pretty clear, they are testing for CTE in "165 individuals who, before their deaths, played football either professionally, semi-professionally, in college or in high school," and 79% of those football players had CTE.

The only thing that is flawed is the sweeping condemnation of football because of this study and others like it. As others have already said, it's a condition that we still know little about and can't even clinically diagnose it. It's obvious that playing football long-term will fuck your shit up, though, and the more these studies garner attention the more the worst league in professional sports will be forced to keep paying attention to it.

It's flawed because the people who donated their brains did so because they thought they were suffering from the disease. You can't draw any conclusions on the sport as a whole from this study.

 

[CountAntonius]

I personally would not let a child play football anymore after all this stuff is coming out. Best case scenario they go somewhere big with the sport and are pretty much guaranteed brain disease someday. Not worth it.

 

[onadesertedisland]

I wonder if other sports have similar issues with CTE? I mean hockey players highlight-hit each other given the opportunity.

 

[Simply Sarah]

The fact that the study is fundamentally flawed and completely non-actionable renders it essentially useless as a measure of how dangerous football is.

I'm sure they learned tons of other super useful stuff though, so I'm not saying it wasn't worthwhile.

Well, in regards to hard statistics, yes, it's fairly useless. But given what they found it clearly indicates that more study is needed and when you look at all the facts of this study and other CTE related information there is enough to at least suggest some level of correlation between football and CTE. By that I mean:
- We have a self-selected sample of people that played football and reported symptoms of what is included under CTE.
- We find that the vast majority of them demonstrate CTE when examined after death.
- We know that a CTE is different than a "normal" brain.
- We know that rate of people reporting the symptoms these former players reported appear to be notably higher in people that have played higher level football than in the general population.

None of the above proves anything but it does seem to support at least a weak hypothesis that playing higher level football is correlated with some level of higher CTE rates.

 

[BFIB]

The players know the risks nowadays. Heck, wide receivers would probably rather get hit helmet to helmet, than at the knees in case they tear an ACL.

Its a full contact sport, what do people expect?

 

[onadesertedisland]

It's flawed because the people who donated their brains did so because they thought they were suffering from the disease. You can't draw any conclusions on the sport as a whole from this study.

The conclusion is that there is a definite link to playing the sport and the debilitating disease. It doesn't have to mean every player gets it. It's a big risk to take for parents of kids wanting to play the sport.

 

[Basileus777]

I wonder if other sports have similar issues with CTE? I mean hockey players highlight-hit each other given the opportunity.

Most research suggests that it's not the big hits, but the accumulation of lesser sub-concussive blows. Hockey players don't get as many regular hits to the head as a NFL linemen who is banging his head in the trenches.

 

[Elfforkusu]

I wonder if other sports have similar issues with CTE? I mean hockey players highlight-hit each other given the opportunity.

Seems likely to me. Though I doubt it's to the same extent as with gridiron football.

As the poster above noted, they've found severe cte in guys who were never diagnosed with a concussion during their career. The possibilities are then:
1. Player/team ignored it (a definitive possibility...)
2. It was accumulated damage from smaller hits

While #1 is plausible on a case by case basis, the amount of guys who end up with the condition strongly implies #2.

 

[MikeyB]

Get rid of the helmets and the pads.

 

[HariKari]

I wonder if other sports have similar issues with CTE? I mean hockey players highlight-hit each other given the opportunity.

There have been some career ending concussions (Savard), so the league has been paranoid about concussions for awhile. If trainers even suspect that a player took a serious knock, they'll take them out of the game and make them go through the concussion protocol.

Enforcers definitely had CTE, but not your average player.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

No, u mad?

you know you're not in the NFL community thread, right?

 

[eznark]

The conclusion is that there is a definite link to playing the sport and the debilitating disease. It doesn't have to mean every player gets it. It's a big risk to take for parents of kids wanting to play the sport.

Unfortunately, no it doesn't. We don't know how prevalent it is in non-players to form any intelligent comparison.

Also, all of these guys were pre-disposed to "fail" the study. It doesn't prove anything tenuously, much less definitively.

What it will prove is that the NFL is awful, as I'm sure they'll ignore the entire study out of hand.

 

[Simply Sarah]

Most research suggests that it's not the big hits, but the accumulation of lesser sub-concussive blows. Hockey players don't get as many regular hits to the head as a NFL linemen who is banging his head in the trenches.

It doesn't need to be the head taking the blow directly. The force of contact elsewhere on the body can still cause brain trauma.

 

[Madness]

I wonder if other sports have similar issues with CTE? I mean hockey players highlight-hit each other given the opportunity.

Definitely. Never had a concussion once before hockey. It's gotten better though, to the point where you are not allowed back after a major hit if you're showing concussion symptoms. You need to be cleared by your teams medical guy. Plus they're trying to make hits safer in peewees and minors. Some are banning fighting outright.

It's simple, your body and brain was not meant to be hit this hard repetitively day in and day out for years. Each sport has its issues. Try and find any soccer player you know that doesn't have some kind of knee problem (torn acl/mcl) etc. Difference is though, contact sports definitely contribute to impaired brain function as the years wear on. I'm just glad more attention is being given. Hopefully the NFL embraces studies and reports like this.

 

[Basileus777]

It doesn't need to be the head taking the blow directly. The force of contact elsewhere on the body can still cause brain trauma.

This is true. I wish we could research this without an autopsy so we could know more without having a bunch of deceased hockey players donating their bodies.

 

[onadesertedisland]

Unfortunately, no it doesn't. We don't know how prevalent it is in non-players to form any intelligent comparison.

Also, all of these guys were pre-disposed to "fail" the study. It doesn't prove anything tenuously, much less definitively.

What it will prove is that the NFL is awful, as I'm sure they'll ignore the entire study out of hand.

Well I think it is easy to link the repetitive concussions and head trauma from football to CTE, and thus derive that link. We don't currently have the technology to recognize the disease in living people, but we do know what appears to cause it, getting hit in the head repeatedly. Denial because of absolute data is sort of like conservatives clinging to denying climate change because we don't have absolute proof.

 

[kingocfs]

It's flawed because the people who donated their brains did so because they thought they were suffering from the disease. You can't draw any conclusions on the sport as a whole from this study.

I get that the narrative of the study is flawed, but the study itself set out to confirm CTE in suspected cases from a population of football players and that's what it did.

We'll never be able to draw definitive conclusions when they keep doing intentionally biased studies and comparing them to other bias studies in a bubble. I don't understand why the NFL keeps side-stepping this stuff, though, when literally the only thing they can and should do is educate people about it. Especially their players.

 

[AP90]

I don't think that matters. Bashing your head and body against other huge human beings, often at high rates of speed, is not good for the brain, like not even once.

I have spoken to a chiropractor who used to treat football injuries. The players bodies get constantly destroyed. Pretty much by mid to end season, there bodies are bruised and the bruising does not disappear untill a while after the season ends.

The body has trouble repairing itself game after game week after week.... As a result you have essentially old blood that pools in your tissue longer than it should and repeatedly.

The next best thong would be probably larger team sizes in which they rotate players for each game, or the players play 2 games every month with a week of resting the body for a week after every game.

 

[eznark]

Well I think it is easy to link the repetitive concussions and head trauma from football to CTE, and thus derive that link. We don't currently have the technology to recognize the disease in living people, but we do know what appears to cause it, getting hit in the head repeatedly. Denial because of absolute data is sort of like conservatives clinging to denying climate change because we don't have absolute proof.

I'm not denying anything.

I get that the narrative of the study is flawed, but the study itself set out to confirm CTE in suspected cases from a population of football players and that's what it did.

We'll never be able to draw definitive conclusions when they keep doing intentionally biased studies and comparing them to other bias studies in a bubble. I don't understand why the NFL keeps side-stepping this stuff, though, when literally the only thing they can and should do is educate people about it. Especially their players.

If the NFL were serious they would set up a research endowment that paid players x amount to donate their brains post death. Make it enough that you can get a definitive sample size. Also use the endowment to fund similar research on random non-football players to create a baseline.

I think this is an issue, a major one. I think the NFL has been completely derelict in their treatment of it.

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

How common is CTE for us regular folk?

 

[poppabk]

The conclusion is that there is a definite link to playing the sport and the debilitating disease. It doesn't have to mean every player gets it. It's a big risk to take for parents of kids wanting to play the sport.

You can't conclude that from this study. If you took 100 football players who thought they had lung cancer and found the majority did have lung cancer it wouldn't demonstrate a link between football and lung cancer.

 

[Garlador]

How common is CTE for us regular folk?

Most report that it's incredible rare, though additional study is needed.

You can't conclude that from this study. If you took 100 football players who thought they had lung cancer and found the majority did have lung cancer it wouldn't demonstrate a link between football and lung cancer.

But lung cancer isn't caused by blunt trauma to the head.

 

[Mimosa97]

oh no what ever will the billion dollar business do?!!!?!??!?!?

im so glad you're here to defend them. they need all the help they can get.

Will someone think about of those poor billionaire franchise owners ???

Do you want people to lose their jeeeerbs ??? Are you a moslem ???

 

[kirblar]

Remember when they used to do weigh ins in public at the combine? Bunch of people waiting to make offers for guys in underwear. Totally doesn't bring to mind anything similar from history. Nope, not at all...

 

[ThankYouDaletech]

I hope they find a way to help these guys who receive deferential treatment their whole lives, roll through college for free, and get a shot to make six figures minimum.

 

[Hankodank]

I hope they find a way to help these guys who receive deferential treatment their whole lives, roll through college for free, and get a shot to make six figures minimum.

I played at a D3 college - so no scholarship for me. I wasn't talented enough to make it to the NFL - so no shot at making six figures for me. Still, I suffered several diagnosed concussions throughout high school and college - and probably many more un-diagnosed ones...

I did not "roll through college" nor did I receive deferential treatment my whole life.

Get off your high horse and take your bullshit sarcasm with you...

 

[jstripes]

I played at a D3 college - so no scholarship for me. I wasn't talented enough to make it to the NFL - so no shot at making six figures for me. Still, I suffered several diagnosed concussions throughout high school and college - and probably many more un-diagnosed ones...

I did not "roll through college" nor did I receive deferential treatment my whole life.

Get off your high horse and take your bullshit sarcasm with you...

Spoiler

So sorry. I don't mean to make light of it, but the avatar is perfect.

 

[Skellig Gra]

I hope they find a way to help these guys who receive deferential treatment their whole lives, roll through college for free, and get a shot to make six figures minimum.

How is it their whole lives? Most of these guys are out of work permanently by age 25. In terms of their six figures, that has to last them their entire life so it doesn't go very far when they lose half of it up front to taxes and have to give their agents a cut.

 

[Hankodank]

Spoiler

So sorry. I don't mean to make light of it, but the avatar is perfect.

That's awesome - I know my avatar would come in handy someday!

 

[ThankYouDaletech]

How is it their whole lives? Most of these guys are out of work permanently by age 25. In terms of their six figures, that has to last them their entire life so it doesn't go very far when they lose half of it up front to taxes and have to give their agents a cut.

If you're playing high school football in Texas or Alabama or whatever, everyone surrounding you is going to dickride you, especially if you're being scouted.

It doesn't have to last their whole lives if they major in something useful and don't declare for the draft their junior year.

 

[a916]

It makes it all the more frustrating that Concussion will go soft on the NFL.

It's a hollywood movie trying to make money... I could be wrong, but don't they need the cooperation of the NFL to use it's logo and stuff to even put the movie out to begin with?

 

[Instro]

I can't remember, but hasnt this condition also been found in soccer players due heading balls, etc? Would fall in line with the idea that repeated small hits are worse.

 

[Sibylus]

May as well reinstate gladiator fights. At least we wouldn't be lying about the risks.

 

[OuterLimits]

Have studies been done with other sports as well? Especially boxing, hockey, rugby. Or even soccer? Would be cool to compare.

 

[Meier]

This is a solved problem guys. Equipment is better, there are rules and protocols to keep concussed players off the field, and the players themselves know all the risks which is why many are choosing to retire early. The NFL has even paid for their past transgressions on this issue, to the tune a $1 billion+. What else do you want? The league isn't going away, young kids will still grow up playing it, and it's not going to become flag football.

I thought this post started out as sarcasm in the vein of Baghdad Bob until I realized you were serious, haha.

 

[poppabk]

Most report that it's incredible rare, though additional study is needed.


But lung cancer isn't caused by blunt trauma to the head.

Okay let's say Parkinson disease instead. The point remains that this study does not establish a causal relationship, it does however demonstrate that the majority of football players that think they have CTE do have brain damage.

 

[The_Dama]

Nothing on ESPN about this

 

[Basileus777]

Have studies been done with other sports as well? Especially boxing, hockey, rugby. Or even soccer? Would be cool to compare.

There's been some stuff done with concussions, but I don't believe there have been any studies with CTE because that can't be diagnosed without an autopsy yet and the focus is on American football right now. Though athletes from other sports have had the disease. I imagine acquiring enough brains to do cross sport studies just isn't feasible.

 

[ThankYouDaletech]

Nothing on ESPN about this

And? How is ESPN going to make money giving the NFL negative press during the season? Johnny Manziel is starting, that's what Skip and Stephen A. are going to yell at each other about.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

It's a hollywood movie trying to make money... I could be wrong, but don't they need the cooperation of the NFL to use it's logo and stuff to even put the movie out to begin with?

parts of the movie were "edited" to go softer on the NFL due to the very real risk of the NFL suing the ever living shit out anyone associated in making the movie.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Nothing on ESPN about this

Of course not. It's ESPN.

 

[Eidan]

It's a hollywood movie trying to make money... I could be wrong, but don't they need the cooperation of the NFL to use it's logo and stuff to even put the movie out to begin with?

That raises something that I'm not entirely certain of. What are the limits of using logos, names, and other information associated with a company, if a company might not approve of the information in the film. What allowed Frontline to have its damning special on concussions that really laid into the NFL, but not a movie like Smith's? Are documentaries simply protected? I have no clue.

 

[entremet]

Not worth it. But the NFL continues to grow, so I don't see this making any dent.

You even have sportscasters saying these athletes know what they're signing up for when they choose to play the game.

I haven't watched a football game this season because of concerns with CTE.

 

[Zach]

It's solved to the greatest degree in which it can be solved by the NFL. Like I said, people aren't going to stop playing football and the NFL isn't going to become flag football.

You greatly underestimate the power of concerned mothers.

Also, no one understands what CTE is or what actually causes it.

Oh, never mind. I shouldn't even be addressing this guy.

 

[milanbaros]

Not worth it. But the NFL continues to grow, so I don't see this making any dent.

You even have sportscasters saying these athletes know what they're signing up for when they choose to play the game.

I haven't watched a football game this season because of concerns with CTE.

My head tells me that a dangerous sport will ultimately wilt, if from talent and not support. Parents will push for safe sports like soccer.

 

[jmizzal]

Will Smith will save us from Goddel lol

 

[djplaeskool]

No, you can't. You can only assure us that it's very popular right now.

It would literally take a wholesale change of ruleset or outright banning of the sport.
I can certainly see changes to rules, procedures, and equipment at the Pee-Wee/MS levels (We've already seen some major changes by way of programs like Heads Up Football, etc), but I just don't see that happening at a High School level without major organizational intervention. Maybe that's what happens...

 

[IISANDERII]

No, you're the one who sounds like someone with an ax to grind. CTE isn't a new thing, we've known about it for nearly a century, when it was associated primarily with boxing. Getting new samples from people who suspect they have it doesn't promote our scientific understanding of what causes it. It does however, promote the agenda of people who want to crucify the NFL.

The NFL has a concussion protocol, spent millions on research to improve equipment while collaborating with the military, and implemented rule changes which reduce the number of collisions per game. What have hockey, UFC, and NASCAR done? What has society at large done? Pinning CTE on one league from one sport does nothing to help diagnose it or limit it's impact.

None of those other sports have a high premature death rate like the NFL does.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I have spoken to a chiropractor who used to treat football injuries. The players bodies get constantly destroyed. Pretty much by mid to end season, there bodies are bruised and the bruising does not disappear untill a while after the season ends.

The body has trouble repairing itself game after game week after week.... As a result you have essentially old blood that pools in your tissue longer than it should and repeatedly.

The next best thong would be probably larger team sizes in which they rotate players for each game, or the players play 2 games every month with a week of resting the body for a week after every game.

You're talking about the physical nature of their injuries, I'm talking about their brains. One single brain impact is bad for you. CTE has been found as early as an 18 year old high schooler and even some college players. These are not guys that have gone through the rigors of a 10 year NFL career. Having a single concussion (something that used to be waived off as no big deal) is incredibly bad for you.