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[LiK]

They had 18 minutes though. I mean, they managed to pull the kids up and get them out in a fraction of that, and the vent that deposited them was right next to where they were watching her be trapped.

Yea, hard to say, I only remember that after he saved them, there was a lot of running and going up that spiral staircase. I'm sure that was a time consuming part if they had to run back.

I'll prolly need to revisit that scene again.

 

[Akselziys]

They had 18 minutes though. I mean, they managed to pull the kids up and get them out in a fraction of that, and the vent that deposited them was right next to where they were watching her be trapped.

I thought I remember Seven mentioning there was a reason as to why he couldn't use the shoot again ^^

 

[LiK]

I thought I remember Seven mentioning there was a reason as to why he couldn't use the shoot again ^^

Argh, wish I remembered. This is why marathoning a game with multiple endings and paths sucks. So many details are fuzzy. :lol

My best guess is something was locked down when the incinerator turned on.

 

[Akselziys]

Argh, wish I remembered. This is why marathoning a game with multiple endings and paths sucks. So many details are fuzzy. :lol

My best guess is something was locked down when the incinerator turned on.

I just took a look at the script and it seems that the vent shaft was like 20-30 ft high and when Gentarou was raging and chasing after Aoi, Seven pulled him up along with the bedsheet and closed the vent thus sealing away that exit from Akane

 

[LiK]

I just took a look at the script and it seems that the vent shaft was like 20-30 ft high and when Gentarou was raging and chasing after Aoi, Seven pulled him up along with the bedsheet and closed the vent thus sealing away that exit from Akane

Oh right, that was it. man, psycho Ace freaked me out. He was such a douche.

 

[Akselziys]

Oh right, that was it. man, psycho Ace freaked me out. He was such a douche.

Ace's crazy evil mastermind sprite/bust art (present time) reminded me of the Phoenix Wright reveals when the incognito villain comes out with their troll face :lol

 

[LiK]

Ace's crazy evil mastermind sprite/bust art (present time) reminded me of the Phoenix Wright reveals when the incognito villain comes out with their troll face :lol

Yea, the Normal ending when he revealed his true asshole face was sooooo Ace Attorney reveal 101 to me too. :lol

 

[jaxword]

Oh! Another thing. When Seven rescued the kids, he crawled through the ducts, lowered a bedsheet-rope, and the vent got them out past door 9.
But when Akane was trapped in the incinerator, they were all like "we can't get in there to save her" even though the vent was probably ten feet from them and the rope was probably still lying near the opening above the incinerator room.

Seven couldn't get back into his cell to crawl back through the vent, though, it was still locked.

And since they had just pulled up the last of the kids, there was no way to get it back down out of the vent to Akane.

 

[The Technomancer]

Well no, I'm saying that the vent that they took from the incinerator to outside of door 9 they should have been able to take from outside door 9 to the incinerator. Although now that I think about it do I recall them falling down inside the vent that they wouldn't be able to climb up in reverse...

 

[Lard]

I thought I remember Seven mentioning there was a reason as to why he couldn't use the shoot again ^^

I don't remember him saying that at all.

 

[jaxword]

Well no, I'm saying that the vent that they took from the incinerator to outside of door 9 they should have been able to take from outside door 9 to the incinerator. Although now that I think about it do I recall them falling down inside the vent that they wouldn't be able to climb up in reverse...

Yeah, the path they took OUT of the vent was vertical, so that wouldn't work.

 

[Akselziys]

I don't remember him saying that at all.

Yeah, I think I'm just remembering what Techno and the others are reiterating :lol

 

[LiK]

Yeah, the path they took OUT of the vent was vertical, so that wouldn't work.

THATS RIGHT!

 

[The Technomancer]

Wrote a review btw: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=25213987#post25213987

 

[Ri'Orius]

From the beginning I trusted Snake and Ace, was suspicious of Santa and Lotus because of some of the stuff they said, was suspicious of Akane merely by virtue of her being the cliche childhood love interest, and honestly wasn't sure what to think of Clover and Seven.

I saw through Ace as soon as the cast started talking about the idea that two people must have worked together to kill Snake. I figured, what if it was one guy with two watches? And once you're watching him carefully, Ace seems pretty sketchy throughout: he just gives off a vibe that when he's acting nice, he's really just playing you.

My big question, though: what was going on in some of the bad endings? I mean, the sub ending involved some tenth person massacring everyone (and the only other person on the "boat" that I can think of is Cap), the knife ending had some unknown character killing Lotus and Junpei for no apparent reason... I didn't try replaying these endings after getting the true ending, but do they somehow make sense once you know what really was going down?

 

[LiK]

I saw through Ace as soon as the cast started talking about the idea that two people must have worked together to kill Snake. I figured, what if it was one guy with two watches? And once you're watching him carefully, Ace seems pretty sketchy throughout: he just gives off a vibe that when he's acting nice, he's really just playing you.

My big question, though: what was going on in some of the bad endings? I mean, the sub ending involved some tenth person massacring everyone (and the only other person on the "boat" that I can think of is Cap), the knife ending had some unknown character killing Lotus and Junpei for no apparent reason... I didn't try replaying these endings after getting the true ending, but do they somehow make sense once you know what really was going down?

I think Ace was playing dead when you ran by. He was the only one who had a knife from the various timelines.

 

[Nishastra]

Yeah, they only actually checked Clover to see if she was dead before continuing on. I just assume that Ace wasn't dead and followed you after you went on.

 

[jaxword]

Ace was the killer in the Sub and Knife endings. He was faking his death.

Junpei and Lotus are too panicked to check his pulse, if you watch closely. He kills Lotus for her watch in those endings.

The axe ending is the clue, as he and Lotus go off alone before Clover comes back.

 

[Nishastra]

The axe ending is the clue, as he and Lotus go off alone before Clover comes back.

Yeah, "something I want to show you". That's not suspicious at all. I half expected to get killed by Ace in that ending at first

 

[LiK]

Yeah, "something I want to show you". That's not suspicious at all. I half expected to get killed by Ace in that ending at first

Yea, getting Knife before Axe made that reveal way cooler.

I kinda suspected Ace way before any of the endings. Kinda thought he was acting odd when he wanted to stay behind and drugged himself. That was just weird.

 

[Hours Left]

I love all the moments of realization in the game. The sudden rush of details that make you see things in a whole new way.

When Clover mentioned Snake's left arm being prosthetic, I was like...

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@_@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[The Technomancer]

Yeah, "something I want to show you". That's not suspicious at all. I half expected to get killed by Ace in that ending at first

Oh yeah, I totally knew something was up there.

 

[Totakeke]

I'm not the only one that on my first playthrough, went to door 5 and immediately took note that the dead 9th man's watch wasn't deactivated at all am I? That was such an obvious clue that the instructions Snake read wasn't completely true.

Unfortunately that was largely brushed off and only mentioned in the normal ending in the true ending. I kept waiting for a path that would let me go back and grab that watch, Junpei is dumb.

 

[AniHawk]

So just to clarify: "Alice" was Akane in Egyptian clothing right?

Because any other explanation would make me mad and angry.

 

[Nishastra]

I'm not the only one that on my first playthrough, went to door 5 and immediately took note that the dead 9th man's watch wasn't deactivated at all am I? That was such an obvious clue that the instructions Snake read wasn't completely true.

Unfortunately that was largely brushed off and only mentioned in the normal ending in the true ending. I kept waiting for a path that would let me go back and grab that watch, Junpei is dumb.

I said somewhere in the other thread that the first time I played, I demanded to go in door 5 specifically because I wanted Junpei to pick up the 9 watch. Nothing implied he needed to be alive for it to work, but Junpei obviously didn't think of it.

 

[Totakeke]

I said somewhere in the other thread that the first time I played, I demanded to go in door 5 specifically because I wanted Junpei to pick up the 9 watch. Nothing implied he needed to be alive for it to work, but Junpei obviously didn't think of it.

The instructions Snake read said upon the user's death (or heartbeat reaching 0), the watch would deactivate automatically.

 

[Nishastra]

So just to clarify: "Alice" was Akane in Egyptian clothing right?

Because any other explanation would make me mad and angry.

Who knows? She didn't strike me as looking much like Akane, but even if Alice is real, why in hell would she be THERE?

Were they so thorough in duplicating the Gigantic that they made another Alice?

The instructions Snake read said upon the user's death (or heartbeat reaching 0), the watch would deactivate automatically.

That was about -removing- the watch. It didn't actually say it would stop working, I don't think.

 

[Totakeke]

That was about -removing- the watch. It didn't actually say it would stop working, I don't think.

I thought it was implied that it would stop working, because otherwise, what's stopping people from killing each other in the beginning? At least, what's stopping people from thinking about it?

 

[The Technomancer]

If the game allowed you just a bit more freedom, maybe to do things like grab the 9 watch or take the gun from the coffin or just remove some of the moments where you scream "Junpei you idiot do this!" then it would go from great to truly fantastic in my eyes.

 

[AniHawk]

If the game allowed you just a bit more freedom, maybe to do things like grab the 9 watch or take the gun from the coffin or just remove some of the moments where you scream "Junpei you idiot do this!" then it would go from great to truly fantastic in my eyes.

Yeah. Even small differences to endings (so maybe there are 9 of them instead of 6) would have been nice.

Clover: LET'S BE CRAZY TOGETHER
Junpei: No thanks.

Junpei: Oh man, someone stabbed Lotus until she died from it. Good thing I have this gun.

Junpei: I'll just take this watch then because it's VERY OBVIOUSLY AN ADVANTAGE TO HAVE IT.

 

[Nishastra]

I thought it was implied that it would stop working, because otherwise, what's stopping people from killing each other in the beginning? At least, what's stopping people from thinking about it?

You were probably supposed to think that, but obviously that wasn't the case.

I imagine the only thing stopping people from killing each other is... common decency? Aside from Ace, no one really wants to kill anyone else. It's not like they NEED to kill each other if they cooperate.

Junpei obviously doesn't think of it, that's really all we know. Ace not only thinks of it, but acts on it, Akane (and by association Santa) expects him to act on it. Clover knows about it, as she takes the O watch. Really, it might only be Junpei who doesn't think about it at all.

Clover: LET'S BE CRAZY TOGETHER
Junpei: No thanks.

I doubt that would have helped

Anyway, I want the opposite. I want Junpei to join psycho-Clover without getting killed

 

[Totakeke]

You were probably supposed to think that, but obviously that wasn't the case.

I imagine the only thing stopping people from killing each other is... common decency? Aside from Ace, no one really wants to kill anyone else. It's not like they NEED to kill each other if they cooperate.

Junpei obviously doesn't think of it, that's really all we know. Ace not only thinks of it, but acts on it, Akane (and by association Santa) expects him to act on it. Clover knows about it, as she takes the O watch. Really, it might only be Junpei who doesn't think about it at all.

They do need to kill/remove each other from the game based on the information they know in the beginning. I could argue Clover only took the watch because she saw that it was still working. What if there was only one 9 door? If leaving people behind meant their death, it was pretty alike killing/removing other people from the game anyway, yet everyone acted like oh no! There's no other way! Plus the constant reminder of absolutely needing 3-5 people to pass a door. If they knew the watch would still be active after a person's death and that counts into the 3-5 people requirement, they would think to check 9th's and Snake's watch. etc. etc.



Plus what's with the stupid plan to switch Santa's and Akane's watches numbers anyway? That plan would completely arouse suspicion if for example, Snake and 9th hadn't "died" where they did. It was completely unnecessary.

 

[AniHawk]

I'm going to try and play this out:

Akane lived and had never been burned to death. The reports of a kid dying were things past-Akane or present-Akane had told everyone who was there in the Nonary Project on the Gigantic. Whether they were aware that it was a lie or not, the information had to be passed to Junpei, to get him in the state of mind that there was real danger of her/them not living through the incinerator event. That meant:

Snake: Knew that Akane had lived through the event, was in on the lie and told it to Junpei.
Seven: Knew that Akane had lived through the event, was also in on the lie and told it to Junpei. Never had amnesia.
Clover: Did not know that Akane had lived through the event. Thought she had died, and told it to Junpei.
Lotus: Did not know that Akane had lived through the event.
Ace: Knew that Akane had lived through the event. He doesn't reveal this information to keep from revealing his true identity, and Aoi removes him from the incinerator before he ever gets a chance to do so.

And of course, Santa knew she had lived through the event. There were only a couple people who did not know: Clover and Lotus, and it was probably necessary that they didn't know to create a believable story for Junpei.

Really, Lotus and Clover are the two biggest mysteries in the game. Clover I can understand being there, seeing as she was part of the project in that same building, but her being left in the dark is a mystery. Lotus's presence doesn't make much sense to me either. Her only connection was that her daughters had been kidnapped years ago.

But otherwise, Junpei was told exactly what he needed to hear to get the job done.

The only other option is that Akane contacting the future changed the past. That might explain Seven's headache, and if Snake wasn't aware that she was alive when the change to the past had been made, maybe it's why he didn't suffer a headache either (Santa was out of the room, so we couldn't see any sort of reaction). I kinda doubt it though, considering Snake seemed acutely aware of his surroundings and would have known she had made it through the experiment.

Only other question I have is how the hell Akane got out of the incinerator without anyone noticing. Although she was Zero so there was perhaps a chance that she had built some sort of way out.

Also: that was a real-ass incinerator she put everyone in.

 

[AniHawk]

Anyway, I want the opposite. I want Junpei to join psycho-Clover without getting killed

I would have liked him to at least take the fucking axe from her. Or dodge. It also didn't feel right that he suddenly fell in crazy with her (although she was 18 years old when he was 21 so it wasn't too weird I guess).

 

[Hylian7]

I'm going to try and play this out:

Akane lived and had never been burned to death. The reports of a kid dying were things past-Akane or present-Akane had told everyone who was there in the Nonary Project on the Gigantic. Whether they were aware that it was a lie or not, the information had to be passed to Junpei, to get him in the state of mind that there was real danger of her/them not living through the incinerator event. That meant:

Snake: Knew that Akane had lived through the event, was in on the lie and told it to Junpei.
Seven: Knew that Akane had lived through the event, was also in on the lie and told it to Junpei. Never had amnesia.
Clover: Did not know that Akane had lived through the event. Thought she had died, and told it to Junpei.
Lotus: Did not know that Akane had lived through the event.
Ace: Knew that Akane had lived through the event. He doesn't reveal this information to keep from revealing his true identity, and Aoi removes him from the incinerator before he ever gets a chance to do so.

And of course, Santa knew she had lived through the event. There were only a couple people who did not know: Clover and Lotus, and it was probably necessary that they didn't know to create a believable story for Junpei.

Really, Lotus and Clover are the two biggest mysteries in the game. Clover I can understand being there, seeing as she was part of the project in that same building, but her being left in the dark is a mystery. Lotus's presence doesn't make much sense to me either. Her only connection was that her daughters had been kidnapped years ago.

But otherwise, Junpei was told exactly what he needed to hear to get the job done.

The only other option is that Akane contacting the future changed the past. That might explain Seven's headache, and if Snake wasn't aware that she was alive when the change to the past had been made, maybe it's why he didn't suffer a headache either (Santa was out of the room, so we couldn't see any sort of reaction). I kinda doubt it though, considering Snake seemed acutely aware of his surroundings and would have known she had made it through the experiment.

Only other question I have is how the hell Akane got out of the incinerator without anyone noticing. Although she was Zero so there was perhaps a chance that she had built some sort of way out.

Also: that was a real-ass incinerator she put everyone in.

It seems to be implied that Seven lied about finding Akane's body to make sure the proper future happened. She did solve the puzzle with future Junpei's help, but if that didn't actually happen in the future, then she would disappear.

 

[Nishastra]

They do need to kill/remove each other from the game based on the information they know in the beginning.

What information is this? I don't remember anything suggesting this.

I could argue Clover only took the watch because she saw that it was still working.

In the Axe ending, she also takes four other watches. She kills Junpei specifically because she needs his watch. (And/or because she's gone psycho )

What if there was only one 9 door? If leaving people behind meant their death, it was pretty alike killing/removing other people from the game anyway, yet everyone acted like oh no! There's no other way! Plus the constant reminder of absolutely needing 3-5 people to pass a door. If they knew the watch would still be active after a person's death and that counts into the 3-5 people requirement, they would think to check 9th's and Snake's watch. etc. etc.

Most of them knew a hell of a lot more than they were letting on from the start, as everyone but Lotus and Seven had either organized the original game or been through it (Seven came in near the end), and two of them were organizing the current game. As Seven points out numerous times, it's designed to not separate them for long, and in the Safe ending Junpei is dismayed by the multiple 9 doors because it shows him that everyone could get through. It's a big point that it was never said that there was only one 9 door.

Fake-Snake (can't remember his real name) has a broken watch. Junpei does check it if you go through door 3.

Junpei does actually think of the 9th Man's watch as well in the Safe ending, but he's too late by that point.

The game isn't actually designed to kill people. It's designed to make people think they're going to die. Anyone actually dying shouldn't be intentional, although the threat needs to be real, and Ace seems more than a little psychotic in past-Akane's time.

I would have liked him to at least take the fucking axe from her. Or dodge. It also didn't feel right that he suddenly fell in crazy with her (although she was 18 years old when he was 21 so it wasn't too weird I guess).

I'm going to assume he didn't see it coming. She did kill him the very instant he moved, more or less

 

[Hours Left]

It seems to be implied that Seven lied about finding Akane's body to make sure the proper future happened. She did solve the puzzle with future Junpei's help, but if that didn't actually happen in the future, then she would disappear.

I think he meant in the present timeline, when she left with Aoi.

 

[AniHawk]

It seems to be implied that Seven lied about finding Akane's body to make sure the proper future happened. She did solve the puzzle with future Junpei's help, but if that didn't actually happen in the future, then she would disappear.

I'm talking about June/Zero-Akane, not past-Akane. If she suddenly disappeared, she should have suddenly reappeared upon Junpie/past-Akane solving the puzzle.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm talking about June/Zero-Akane, not past-Akane. If she suddenly disappeared, she should have suddenly reappeared upon Junpie/past-Akane solving the puzzle.

Yeah, I brought up this same point in the other thread because Junpei looks over in the corner of the incinerator as he cries her name, and she wasn't there anymore, and I was like "where did she go?"

 

[jaxword]

So just to clarify: "Alice" was Akane in Egyptian clothing right?

Because any other explanation would make me mad and angry.

Well, you could interpret it as just a complete joke, fitting the playful theme of the good ending.

Alternatively, you could make things ridiculously complicated and say that now that Akane lived and grew up, there needed to be another "June" walking around the whole game to direct Junpei. Hey, this Alice body needs a host and is well preserved, let's use that.

Of course, we don't want to get silly here.

 

[AniHawk]

Well, you could interpret it as just a complete joke, fitting the playful theme of the good ending.

Alternatively, you could make things ridiculously complicated and say that now that Akane lived and grew up, there needed to be another "June" walking around the whole game to direct Junpei. Hey, this Alice body needs a host and is well preserved, let's use that.

Of course, we don't want to get silly here.

All right. I'm just going to assume Akane was dressed as Alice then. Otherwise it ruins the ending.

Also, what was with the whole conversation with Ace about Snake and Clover not looking to be siblings of each other? That just went nowhere.

 

[Hours Left]

Also, what was with the whole conversation with Ace about Snake and Clover not looking to be siblings of each other? That just went nowhere.

Hint about June and Santa?

 

[jaxword]

All right. I'm just going to assume Akane was dressed as Alice then. Otherwise it ruins the ending.

Also, what was with the whole conversation with Ace about Snake and Clover not looking to be siblings of each other? That just went nowhere.

There's a simpler explanation to Alice, and that's just that the life-or-death experience they just experienced proved the morphogenic field and all of them are having a focused mass hallucination from talking about her for the past 9 hours.

As for the convo, it's a subtle hint about Santa and Akane not looking like siblings either.

 

[Hours Left]

Speaking of June & Santa being siblings, I thought is was really strange when I was initially playing the game that June was joking about Santa's "dead" sister when they were in the boiler room. Seemed totally out of character for her.

Now I obviously know why, but that seemed like a bit of careless moment for her. She was usually so careful throughout the whole game not to let anything on.

 

[someguyinahat]

Could someone explain why Santa wanted Clover to be on the staircase in the boiler room because "the angle was perfect"? Was this some kind of upskirt joke, or did I miss something?

 

[Hours Left]

Could someone explain why Santa wanted Clover to be on the staircase in the boiler room because "the angle was perfect"? Was this some kind of upskirt joke, or did I miss something?

.

 

[Totakeke]

What information is this? I don't remember anything suggesting this.

The information card Snake read. You can imply everyone except Junpei and Ace and maybe Lotus is in the plot and already knew almost everything in the game, but it doesn't explain the bad endings. So they're okay with being killed because they're confident they'll live in some parallel world?

In the Axe ending, she also takes four other watches. She kills Junpei specifically because she needs his watch. (And/or because she's gone psycho )

Doesn't change anything that she could have only the information after noticing the 0 watch. Again, I'm inferring to what they know in the beginning, not as the game progresses.

Most of them knew a hell of a lot more than they were letting on from the start, as everyone but Lotus and Seven had either organized the original game or been through it (Seven came in near the end), and two of them were organizing the current game. As Seven points out numerous times, it's designed to not separate them for long, and in the Safe ending Junpei is dismayed by the multiple 9 doors because it shows him that everyone could get through. It's a big point that it was never said that there was only one 9 door.

Again, you're saying that people with so much knowledge are willingly getting killed and ignoring obvious points. Why does none of them check for the 9th's watch except Ace? Because there's a plan to get the perfect parallel world ending?

Fake-Snake (can't remember his real name) has a broken watch. Junpei does check it if you go through door 3.

Junpei does actually think of the 9th Man's watch as well in the Safe ending, but he's too late by that point.

The game isn't actually designed to kill people. It's designed to make people think they're going to die. Anyone actually dying shouldn't be intentional, although the threat needs to be real, and Ace seems more than a little psychotic in past-Akane's time.

Again, it's a matter of assuming numerous people were in the plot in the very beginning vs. most people discovering more as the game went on. Junpei missing the 9th watch may be him being oblivious/dumb, but if so many other people were in the plot, why didn't they check the watch? What reason could there be? I see none unless you assume that they're simply willing to die to entertain the numerous bad endings.


The key argument here is whether people knew that the watch could be used after the user is incapacitated in the very beginning before people went in any doors. My argument is no, that people do not know that the watch can be used and recognized as a person after the user dies. There's just so many holes otherwise unless people are just willing to die for the game.

 

[The Technomancer]

As far as I know the only three who are explicitly in on the plot are Seven, June, and Santa. Snake may have known that Akane survived, but he and Clover weren't in on the game at all, and Lotus had no clue what the hell was going on.

 

[Totakeke]

As far as I know the only three who are explicitly in on the plot are Seven, June, and Santa. Snake may have known that Akane survived, but he and Clover weren't in on the game at all, and Lotus had no clue what the hell was going on.

Yeah, well I should have rephrased it. I don't mean people who knew the whole plot but rather know how the game works. Having a second watch is a huge advantage and that if people already knew in the very beginning, makes no sense to not pursue that option unless they're just dumb. So then my conclusion is most people didn't know that they could use a dead user's watch in the very beginning. And if they were aware that someone else has already taken the watch when they were attempting to do so themselves, why did no one raise that out to attempt to catch the culprit? Simple as that.

 

[Hours Left]

The information card Snake read. You can imply everyone except Junpei and Ace and maybe Lotus is in the plot and already knew almost everything in the game, but it doesn't explain the bad endings. So they're okay with being killed because they're confident they'll live in some parallel world?

I'm pretty positive that Clover isn't in on anything. Also, I don't think any of them are okay with dying. It's my personal belief that the "bad endings" never happen/ed. Akane can see all the different outcomes and orchestrates the one that results in her closing the loop.

The main thing that influences what the outcome is are Junpei's choices. He's always the last one to pick which door to enter and his interactions with the characters are what shape their moods (Clover) and what information is discussed. The only other people that genuinely press for info are Clover and Lotus, the two characters the most removed from the plan.

And considering Akane's connection with Junpei, it had to be that way. She was guiding him through the whole game, and she knew how each person would react depending on what situations occur. So in essence, the fact that some people acted suspiciously in regards to the rules of the game didn't really matter, because initiating the one timeline that closed the loop was the only objective.