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A call for empathy – please be nice to us

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So weird to read folks talk about how GAF "used to be" a big dog pile as they dog pile in this thread whose express purpose was asking for civility.
 
Civility and generosity to others are certainly prerequisites for meaningful discussion. It is challenging to maintain a sense of civility while delivering thundering moral denunciations directed at other members.
 
Hedge said:
W-what is this a reference to?
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Lime changes where they live like you and I change clothes.

That and the (usually) overly hostile nature of their posts has always given me troll warning signs. Just a bit too over the top for me.
 
Angelus Errare said:
So weird to read folks talk about how GAF "used to be" a big dog pile as they dog pile in this thread whose express purpose was asking for civility.
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I dont think thats happening in this thread. You have many people reacting to the OP, but thats expected, its his thread, and he seems to have left and isnt continuing the discussion. What happens in a lot of threads is one post within the thread gets picked up and quoted over and over and over again. Thats dog piling. For the most part it doesnt look like any poster in here has been quoted more than 3-4 times. That isnt dog piling, thats discussion.
 
If old gaf was years old personal grudges and passive aggressive snark against members regardless of what they have to say, its obviously still alive and well
 
Angelus Errare said:
If pointing out irony makes me the bad guy. Then I'll let it rock.
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Dude, you are the irony.

This whole thing is like a bunch of kids shitting up the sandbox, leaving it for another one and then coming back complaining how it's crap now after they left. I don't know if it's hilarious or sad.
 
I was intent on only watching the shitshow from afar and look at the place I go burst into flame.
Instead, the caretakers have gone, the good customers have left en masse and an infestation is slowly but surely making its lifework to destroy even the memory of this place.

For all the people rewriting history:
in old Gaf, everytime some classic GG type quality poster would come and claim he was unjustly banned, the mods would come post the reason he was banned with links that showed how bad a poster they were and swiftly make sure that this kind of shit not happen again.
Now? Since there's like what? 1 mod? who is far too busy trying to ban people who talk about that place where the quality customers went or avoid that this place actually burst in flame. They obviously can't set the record straight (and since the old mods aren't there anyway, it's not like they can't explain why someone who htought it was funny to consider transgender people as worthy of a good beating is a good idea).

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a forum is only as good as its moderation.
Now GAF is in an woefully inadequate state where any type of discussion is either irrelevant or impossible.
It's no wonder the vocal minority of the worst part of the place is taking so much space, after all any high content/high quality poster probably wouldn't want to be caught dead in this place as it is right now.
Best of luck to you Lime, Angelus, HStallion, you're gonna need it.
This place isn't going to be anything but YetAnotherGamefaqs forum until moderation step up with the rididuclous "you're just mad that saying some race of people should just drop dead" phase is over.
Of course you're going to be banned if you're arguing that gay people should get over their whole gay phase and join the rest of the straight people and not make a big deal when they're treated as the butt of tasteless jokes.
 
Lionel Richie said:
Nonsensical straw man like this is a very good representation of the old NeoGAF. You'd have people dogpiling the guy you quoted and he would probably be too banned to call you out on this bullshit, so you'd feel like you won the discussion even though your argument makes no fucking sense.

That's why you guys feel safe in a heavily moderated echo chamber. Not because it's "humanly decent" or respectful or anything like that, but because it's easy to beat opposing views.
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This echo chamber stuff is another internet reducto ad absurdum...Most people live in intellectual bubbles in the real world of various sizes. Political discourse has been incredibly volitile recently, which does reflect going on in the wider world, but the internet brings out the extreme rhetoric...
 
Nabbis said:
Dude, you are the irony.

This whole thing is like a bunch of kids shitting up the sandbox, leaving it for another one and then coming back complaining how it's crap now after they left. I don't know if it's hilarious or sad.
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People didn't leave because this place was so bad it needed a good purge.
People left because its owner made it impossible for them to stay.
Did you miss the whole weekend drama or something?
 
Shake Appeal said:
You keep framing this as some sort of reasonable debate between people who just have differing opinions. But one side has their identity and lived experience at stake, and the worst that can happen to the "other side" of this false dichomtomy is that someone might laugh at them and revoke their posting privileges on a web forum.

This isn't an academic forum or the floor of a debate. It's a private message board community where moderators can toss whomever they please for being too hurtful or too stupid to abide by community standards.

Apparently, many people here (predominantly young cishet white gamebros who "don't want to talk about politics all the time") never had the experience of being told their opinion isn't uniquely interesting or important. I'd hope that getting mocked on NeoGAF would be a good learning experience for them—maybe cause them to wonder about what it's like to be ignored and shunned all the time—but nope. Tears and impotent rage about "dogpiles" and "bullying." Way to self-actualize.
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I'm an immigrant minority immigrant who grew up in poverty with half my family from an Islamic background and I only need to say this because viewpoints like yours are precisely the wrongheaded narrative that people don't want.

It does not exist in any real life environment outside of insular organizations the majority would label as extremist.

This victim based narrative bordering on outrage is nothing other than toxic, especially on a discussion forum, and while I can understand some people believe it is helpful, it may be a true barrier to the real supports a person requires.
 
Excellent post Lime. Simultaneously explaining the problem in a balanced non threatening and fair manner and then proving that thesis via the replies in this thread.
 
Megatron said:
I dont think thats happening in this thread. You have many people reacting to the OP, but thats expected, its his thread, and he seems to have left and isnt continuing the discussion. What happens in a lot of threads is one post within the thread gets picked up and quoted over and over and over again. Thats dog piling. For the most part it doesnt look like any poster in here has been quoted more than 3-4 times. That isnt dog piling, thats discussion.
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Half the thread is unsubtle, passive aggressive snipes at Lime.
 
Trey said:
Half the thread is unsubtle, passive aggressive snipes at Lime.
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Half is an exaggeration, but like I said its his thread, of course people are going to respond to him. He made a thread and he didnt stay around to have discussion, which is totally fine, but you cant have a two sided discussion when one side leaves.
 
Megatron said:
Half is an exaggeration, but like I said its his thread, of course people are going to respond to him. He made a thread and he didnt stay around to have discussion, which is totally fine, but you cant have a two sided discussion when one side leaves.
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I was going to quote the it all but I stopped around 30. The point doesn't need such a dramatic display in order to be made: it's plain as day what's happening here. It would only be uglier if Lime tried to respond to the avalanche personally, because there is no rational place to take a discussion when people come out the wood work to assualt you character, while completely overlooking the content of the post.
 
Angelus Errare said:
If pointing out irony makes me the bad guy. Then I'll let it rock.
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There's no irony here because having a few members say they disagree isn't dog-piling.
There's plenty of different opinions in this thread.
"Dog-piling" was how GAF was like before, where if you said anything relatively right-winged or even center, you'd be shunned and insulted by literally almost every poster in the thread and get banned from a mod on-sight. Or better yet, have someone message a mod to ban you because they can't tolerate opinions that differ from their own.
Just like GAF calling other people snowflakes, you guys can't figure out what the terms you try to counter and spew out actually means.
 
Angelus Errare said:
So weird to read folks talk about how GAF "used to be" a big dog pile as they dog pile in this thread whose express purpose was asking for civility.
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This is further proof of how out of touch some of you guys are, you were so used to mods banning any dissent that you now think that any disagreement is a pile on. So far the biggest insults in the thread are from people calling those who disagree or even offer a different perspective than Lime, things like

mouthbreathers

dipshit, right-wing cumstains

The "worst" comments about the OP are just making fun of Lime's propensity to change the location he supposedly lives to fit his narrative depending on the post.
 
Great post OP, totally agree.

Everyone deserves respect on NeoGAF. No matter your race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, or political viewpoint you should be treated with civility.

However respect does go both ways. I'm glad that GAF will now include IDEOLOGICAL DIVERSITY alongside the other important forms of diversity you list. People should not be banned for expressing a conservative opinion if they do so in a civil way. And that's that.
 
People need to be considerate and kind towards everyone (within the normal spectrum of course). Edit: by "normal" i mean in terms of manner and logic, dont misunderstand this into something ugly....)

This goes for all people of all beliefs/races/ethnicities/religions/etc around here.

You have to understand that some people will have a different opinion than you and jumping to conclusions over a few sentences or posts in an internet forum, about what kind of a person is, is just plain wrong and ugly.

GAF allowed certain groups to be merciless against others. I hated that. There will be times where people will be passionate over things they believe and I can understand that, but when fanaticism takes the place of passion and people are willing to treat others in a disgusting manner because they dont share the exact same views as them, that is the most disappointing and ugly thing.

We need to be better than this, and always remember that this is an internet board. In fact I am pretty sure that most hateful and harassed situations happening here on GAF these past few months, 90% of them wouldnt end up like this if it happened in real time, over a beer or a cup of coffee.

I have proven this to myself many times over the years. It is different to read words on your computer screen and debating with someone face to face.
 
Crossing Eden said:
Wow it must be SO difficult for you to see people pointing out how misogynistic Quiet is as a character, or for people to point out that you're being catered to all the time. You poor marginalized individual. /s You're a perfect example of the link below. I and many others don't have the advantage of expressing apathy when we aren't represented, nor are we "one of the good ones" who sit quiet and throw our hands up as if things can't improve. Look where we are, look at the past e3, the medium IS improving, because of people like Anita Sarkeesian who spoke up and then got harassed for doing so.

Great post Lime. No one deserves to be harassed because they bother to speak up about aspects of video games like representation. This is one of the greatest threads in the history of this forum because of how true it is.
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"You're a perfect example of the link below"
Okay Crossing Eden, way to literally prove what some people in this thread are saying 100% correct. Way to be a "perfect example"! See how being passive aggressive makes you not a total douche?
Not to derail the thread, but how the fuck is Quiet a misogynistic character? In a series where you spend a solid 20 minutes completely butt-naked (bare ass and all) as the player character (a white male, if you are really so racist to care about that so much), and also having the ability to play through an entire game (in fact, in the same game as Quiet!) in swim trunks (yet again, as both a male and female), her outfit literally means nothing. Is it the fact that she can't talk? The game does a good job of giving that aspect of her development, which actually leads to the best side-story ending in the entire game.

Actually, I'll take a third option here: you don't play games (hence why you bitch about Quiet: you haven't played MGS at all). You go on an internet gaming forum to bitch about diversity while at the same time making you a double-standard racist, while only trying out games marketed with a huge diversity push so you don't appear to be on here to stir shit all day. Not so different to Anita Sarkeesian, actually.

I'm no racist. I openly condemn serious racism and any form of supremacy. I'm all for having cool characters of many different backgrounds (Overwatch does a pretty good job of this), but incessantly bitching about how Mario should be hispanic or how Link should be a woman and to stop having white male protagonists simply because "fuck white people, fuck Drumpf" (which is exactly what you imply from your prior posts) is wrong. It's just as racist as the so called "hate mail" you guys seem to complain about from the online communities (hint hint: it's called ignore them. Put them on mute. Have a spine and learn that people are always going to be like that, so just turn the other cheek and keep doing your thing. Complaining about them only feeds them.). Make a character matter because of their character, not their race. This is why people like Black Panther; he's a genuinely cool character with a great costume, and he has far more depth than just being a black superhero. Race shouldn't be a priority for any character, just a little something to add to their background. Black, Asian, White... it doesn't matter.

It's also amazing how once the tables have turned on this website and the far-left maniacs have become sparse, you guys resort to groveling and begging for kindness, because after acting like a massive piece of shit for years, you guys are seeing that the rest of the world doesn't take being insulted and being called racist/sexist (for pretty much the pettiest/most uninformed shit I could imagine) all the time kindly. This is karma.
 
Mahadev said:
Lime, since you're very respectful in your post I'll try to be as respectful as possible too but I'll have to mention some hard truths also. People like you are the reason we can't have nice things, you were constantly word policing and derailing every discussion with your agenda.

It has become less about diversity nowadays and more about forcing your ideology to others and shoving identity in every issue, especially gaming. It's not a discussion, it's a demand, that's the problem.
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That is the same logic as questioning why a black athlete cannot take a knee. For many, especially minorities, women, en gays, the notion of ‘Know your place and do not disturb us’ is a painful reminder that you are not seen as an equal. This invisible glass ceiling and oppressive stance has quietly been festering in the dark right in front of us for years, that is why racial profiling, sexual assault, and racism has been rampant because people have been abusing their positions and it been quietly accepted. When somebody stands up and says no more, they are labeled as ‘ungrateful’ and often threatened by degrading them, ‘go back to the kitchen’, ‘go back to your country’, ‘keep you gay believes to yourself’ all the while trampling on their rights to speak, protest, and question the status quo.

This all bleeds into representation in video games, television, or any form of media. Like the crowd that says ‘know you place’, that thought process has silently also been in depiction of lesser groups--they are represented in the eyes of somebody that has no clue as to their problems. Their problems are secondary and they are almost then not saved because ‘they have been thought to know their place’. When people started to question that ideology, it meant that the people that peddle that rhetoric were meant to take some responsibility of the falsehood and are asked to justify as to why groups have been depicted that way. When it comes to responsibility and acknowledgement of these problems, is when it goes off the rails--they didn’t have to do it for centuries and taking that responsibility means having to muster up sympathy.

For centuries minority groups have been thought to be mindful and respectful when conversing, all the while the opposition can show no remorse, trample on basic rights, do heinous acts of violence, and still be dubbed patriots. Minority groups have been groomed to show sympathy from the birth, ‘be better’, ‘you represent us’, ‘be kind, even if the other party is not’. All the while, they are spewed about the freedoms they have but still have to fight to actually use them. People are fed up with taking the passive route for even the basic right to question. All of this has been spilling out because people are not going to stand there and take it anymore, centuries of holding back is coming out in full force. It has always been there, but people were forced to hold their tongue.

Not wanting to discuss all of this is just a convenient way to avoid looking at another perspective, having some sympathy for your fellow human being, and taking some acknowledgement at the awfulness that has been okay for centuries. This has nothing to do with ‘I just want to play videogames’, this has all to do with multitude of groups finally having a say into their awful depiction, and they have every right to do so--whether you like it or not. We live in a different era, it is time that we stop tiptoeing around these crucial subjects.

-Odd
 
It can't be said enough: everyone lambasting Lime for their tone is being wholly disingenuous and/or callous and needs to take a moment to self-reflect, because you're completely missing the point.

The scale of things is entirely different here. Having one's entire identity marginalized because it's not the default is on an entirely different class of oppression from someone being... rude... to opinions that continue to marginalize said identity. This shouldn't be so difficult to understand, but obviously it is, or else you guys wouldn't keep posting such obvious BS.

I don't have anything nice to say to you people because you're not even trying. Not even trying! TRY HARDER, PEOPLE!

Croatoan said:
I think you mistake what people want to discuss.

What most peeps are talking about is this.

Person 1: Captain America should be black

Person 2: I disagree, make a new character that is black.

Moderater bans person 2 for racism

or

Person 1: Cammy's outfit is pure male gaze and designed for misogynists

Person 2: I think Cammy's outfit makes her look sexy and powerful and I like it.

Moderator bans person 2 for being a sexist.

That is what people are talking about when they say they want to discuss things, not obviously bigoted stuff like should gay people have rights, or why do we need more blacks in games.
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This never happens.

Stop making things up to support your agenda (oh hey, I can do that too)! Point to actual examples or just don't bother. It's really not helping your case when you resort to hyperbole like this to try to make things seem worse off than they really were.
 
Laiza said:
It can't be said enough: everyone lambasting Lime for their tone is being wholly disingenuous and/or callous and needs to take a moment to self-reflect, because you're completely missing the point.

The scale of things is entirely different here. Having one's entire identity marginalized because it's not the default is on an entirely different class of oppression from someone being... rude... to opinions that continue to marginalize said identity. This shouldn't be so difficult to understand, but obviously it is, or else you guys wouldn't keep posting such obvious BS.

I don't have anything nice to say to you people because you're not even trying. Not even trying! TRY HARDER, PEOPLE!


This never happens.

Stop making things up to support your agenda (oh hey, I can do that too)! Point to actual examples or just don't bother. It's really not helping your case when you resort to hyperbole like this to try to make things seem worse off than they really were.
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“Try Harder People!! You’re not meeting the standards I have set for you!!!” Oh please. Head off to the website you all created and leave GAF alone.
 
Carcetti said:
Which personal opinions of yours do you feel you were unable to say before? Like, go ahead now.
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I don't want to derail the thread by getting into controversial political topics, but in the past I was quickly banned for expressing moderately conservative opinions on issues like feminism. And I ALWAYS conduct myself with civility and kindness. It's something I take pride in.
 
What a deceptive thread title. In reality the OP is just a defense of GAF's social justice heyday wrapped in sanctimonious victimhood. In particular I found the argument that those who prefer to talk about games first are somehow part of the problem ludicrous but illuminating. It explains why SJW-GAF treats us games-first posters so poorly.
 
Lone Wolf said:
"Try Harder People!! You're not meeting the standards I have set for you!!!" Oh please. Head off to the website you all created and leave GAF alone.
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My standards aren't even particularly high. If you can't meet them, consider what that says about the level of discourse you're perpetuating here.
Moondrop said:
What a deceptive thread title. In reality the OP is just a defense of GAF's social justice heyday wrapped in sanctimonious victimhood. In particular I found the argument that those who prefer to talk about games first are somehow part of the problem ludicrous but illuminating. It explains why skeleton-GAF treats us games-first posters so poorly.
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But you are part of the problem. Attempting to shut down all discourse relating to the diversity of representation in video games by excluding it as non-gaming discussion is absolutely an unambiguous form of oppression. Why even pretend otherwise? Who are you fooling?

And do you guys really not understand why ad hominem is a logical fallacy? Really, is that all this thread is going to boil down to?
 
Carcetti said:
Which personal opinions of yours do you feel you were unable to say before? Like, go ahead now.
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This. If there were views they were unable to air it's probably because it was an opinion they knew people wouldn't like.

So rather than being introspective and looking at themselves saying "hmmm, why shouldn't I say that? Why do I think they that?" They default to "Why won't they let me say it! Wahh"
 
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