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[VGEsoterica]

Nintendo, being Nintendo...is that family friendly company on the exterior that inside seems to be a vicious and angry untrained dog ready to pounce and bite whenever it feels threatened...even if the threat isn't really there. But that doesn't mean they can't do some weird stuff that could end up having some bad effects down the line.

Dolphin MAYBE flew too close to the sun distributing keys and should have instead pointed to a file that users supplied with said keys, as if you own the hardware those keys are "inside" and you do have legal use to use them on non-target hardware per previous court cases. The DMCA entry they cite seems to both ALLOW and disallow what Dolphin did...which is not good when it comes to the law...giant chunks of ambiguity.

But its mostly Nintendo's stands that emulation stifles creativity and "allows for illegal use". Just because something COULD be used for nefarious purposes doesn't mean the legal use of emulation by end users should also be threatened. So it really doesn't seem to be about keys in their statement but the whole concept of legal emulation in the first place.

Nintendo gets a court case in a cherry picked jurisdiction with friendly judges who's last experience with technology was in the 60's....could be bad.

But its an interesting look at what Nintendo is up to these days

 

[RoboFu]

if it can be proved to be overwhelmingly used for nefarious purposes though then it can be concidered harmful.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

But its mostly Nintendo's stands that emulation stifles creativity and "allows for illegal use". Just because something COULD be used for nefarious purposes doesn't mean the legal use of emulation by end users should also be threatened.

This is exactly the reasoning for e.g. gun control in Europe. Yes, guns don't kill people, but people with guns kill people, so by taking the guns away you make it way harder for people to kill others. Plus as RoboFu mentioned - let's not beat around the bush, 99% of uses of Dolphin are from pirated software.

 

[ckaneo]

Yall need to stop testing the bear. A judge could easily overthrow precedent and side with Nintendo. You trust the current Supreme Court in the USA for example?

We don't need Dolphin on Steam

 

[Mr Moose]

What are you meant to do with an emulator? Don't they just play ROMs? Aren't those are illegal?

 

[ReBurn]

Does anyone actually believe that people only use emulators to play games they own? Or that most people using emulators dump their own roms from media they own?

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Rom's should be (completely, incl. distribution and free sharing) legal the moment the hardware it was initially released for isn't supported by the manufacturer anymore. If Nintendo wanted to suppress Mario64 Rom's being used, sell a N64 in 2023 (at most inflation adjusted) or get fucked.
If they sell a N64 in 2023, N64 Roms are illegal copies.

IMO 99% of Rom's and emulators are used by people not owning the games they play. That would be a fair deal.

 

[Guilty_AI]

This is exactly the reasoning for e.g. gun control in Europe. Yes, guns don't kill people, but people with guns kill people, so by taking the guns away you make it way harder for people to kill others. Plus as RoboFu mentioned - let's not beat around the bush, 99% of uses of Dolphin are from pirated software.

Except gun control is far from having any consensus, and a terrible comparison overall.

 

[DrFigs]

I don't think we should pretend like most people who emulate are doing it legally.

 

[BlackTron]

This really is dicey, could be a case that sets a new precedent

 

[Kataploom]

This is exactly the reasoning for e.g. gun control in Europe. Yes, guns don't kill people, but people with guns kill people, so by taking the guns away you make it way harder for people to kill others. Plus as RoboFu mentioned - let's not beat around the bush, 99% of uses of Dolphin are from pirated software.

I get the reasoning, but let's do this again:

Is it really considered piracy if the games are not being sold by Nintendo anymore?

Why would Nintendo be harmed by someone downloading an ISO of, say, Link's Crossbow Training instead of buying it?

What options do Nintendo provide for those that want to play that specific game that users are "bypassing"?

Also, IMO second hand market for old games is the same than emulating them from an old ROM/ISO, companies don't get any benefit from it, so it existing shouldn't harm them.

 

[Mephisto40]

What are you meant to do with an emulator? Don't they just play ROMs? Aren't those are illegal?

Roms are not illegal, you can legally download a rom of a game you own a physical copy of, because by law you are allowed to make a backup of any physical media you own

 

[VGEsoterica]

What are you meant to do with an emulator? Don't they just play ROMs? Aren't those are illegal?

If you own the game the rom is 100% legal. And generally just because something CAN be used in an illegal manner, at least in the US, we don’t stop the legal use for the potential illegal one

 

[Cyberpunkd]

I get the reasoning, but let's do this again:

Is it really considered piracy if the games are not being sold by Nintendo anymore?

Yes, if the game I question is still under copyright protection, which all games are. Even if - yes - copyright holder does nothing with the work.

 

[Senua]

Except gun control is far from having any consensus, and a terrible comparison overall.

nah it wored just fine in other countries. america is just too far gone for it to just work like australia or uk for example.

nintendo dont sue me!

 

[Guilty_AI]

nah it wored just fine in other countries. america is just too far gone for it to just work like australia or uk for example.

nintendo dont sue me!

Which remimds me, gun control doesn't necessarely imply porting guns is illegal. Again, terrible comparison.

 

[ArtHands]

Struggle to see the reason for the drag on over this non-story. You can easily download Dolphin as a standalone emulator all these years.

 

[SomeGit]

if it can be proved to be overwhelmingly used for nefarious purposes though then it can be concidered harmful.

That’s not really how it works otherwise MP3 players would have been outlawed decades ago. And the music industry tried hard for that.

 

[Kataploom]

Yes, if the game I question is still under copyright protection, which all games are. Even if - yes - copyright holder does nothing with the work.

What about the other questions?

 

[VGEsoterica]

That’s not really how it works otherwise MP3 players would have been outlawed decades ago. And the music industry tried hard for that.

The music industry did handily lose that argument for sure

 

[DemonGamerTTT]

if it can be proved to be overwhelmingly used for nefarious purposes though then it can be concidered harmful.

Which they clearly can't.

Because guess WHAT... 10000% of criminal digital activities are made on computers, should we ban them ????

Dumb logic is dumb, thank Hades we still have some people with common sense in this world.

 

[nkarafo]

Why did they have to release this on STEAM just to cater to the mainstream? As if it's so important for them to get every average joe on board?

There's no gain for emulation of all things, to go mainstream. Only problems like a horde of entitled kids filling all forums with nagging and complaints, or spamming the bug report pages with non-issues, wasting everyone's time. It's already bad enough with all the cheap android phone and pre-build Raspberry setup users.

So why did they have to provoke Nintendo like this?

I really hope Dolphin devs won't be the ones responsible for killing the emulation scene.

 

[The Stig]

Didn't bleem win this case decades ago?

 

[baphomet]

Yes, if the game I question is still under copyright protection, which all games are. Even if - yes - copyright holder does nothing with the work.

Yet you're here proudly displaying copyrighted material every time you post.

Both equally a non-issue.

 

[Kataploom]

Rom's should be (completely, incl. distribution and free sharing) legal the moment the hardware it was initially released for isn't supported by the manufacturer anymore. If Nintendo wanted to suppress Mario64 Rom's being used, sell a N64 in 2023 (at most inflation adjusted) or get fucked.
If they sell a N64 in 2023, N64 Roms are illegal copies.

IMO 99% of Rom's and emulators are used by people not owning the games they play. That would be a fair deal.

Well, don't go THAT far, if they re-release the game in a form people can play on their platforms as they did with NSO or SM3DSA, they should be safe. But they're not profiting from games and users literally have no way to play them legally, what will they do? Just not play it? Nobody is gonna accept that lol, law must follow common sense.

 

[SomeGit]

The music industry did handily lose that argument for sure

Yep, and the irony of this keys discourse is that the master key is only there to decrypt in runtime.

If the devs were to remove the master key, you can still emulate Wii just fine, you just need to use decrypted ROMs which any dumping tool can do easily.

The most common use case for the keys is to play original Wii DVDs straight from the disc. So removing them would likely mean that less “legal” methods would become more common.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Well, don't go THAT far, if they re-release the game in a form people can play on their platforms as they did with NSO or SM3DSA, they should be safe. But they're not profiting from games and users literally have no way to play them legally, what will they do? Just not play it? Nobody is gonna accept that lol, law must follow common sense.

That’s why I said either make roms legal on the whole front as soon as the manufacturer abandoned his product and make it so people can play it. At that time the company wouldn’t make any money from the game regardless.

Or the manufacturer makes it possible to continue to use old cartridges and still support’s them on displays that are on the market today.

Booth ways are pro consumer and even give the companies a way to continue to make money from past games.

 

[DemonGamerTTT]

Didn't bleem win this case decades ago?

It's not the same case... Emulation is safe, but people are speculating that Nintendo can use this flaw on Dolphins architecture to start a new crusade against emulation as a whole.

 

[Drizzlehell]

I don't feel morally conflicted about pirating stuff from companies like Nintendo. I don't endorse it nor would I contribute or help spread it around, but I don't feel bad about taking advantage either. Nintendo is ruthless, consistently makes anti-consumer moves that make it unreasonably difficult to acquire and play their games, and they have more money then I would ever be able to count. If a company makes it easy for me to buy their game at a reasonable price then of course I will because I'm an adult with enough disposable income. But Nintendo keeps acting like it really wants me to go out of my way to interact with their stuff.

So fuck 'em.

 

[00_Zer0]

The key issue is what might sink future Dolphin development. If Nintendo wanted to they could force the Dolphin Teams hand and demand a C&D on all development based on that alone. All the talk of clean code and reverse engineering and now they could potentially get destroyed by Nintendo. Of course removing the keys after the fact would make the Dolphin Team look even more guilty. I mean Nintendo could try to sue for some monetary damages here and potentially lock out any future development based solely on this key issue. It looks bad for the Dolphin Team. Big bad Nintendo was waiting in the wings and finally found their "a-ha!" moment. I wish the Dolphin Team luck, but it doesn't look good.

 

[Sleepwalker]

Remember, companies are not your friends, if they could take all rights away from you they would.

The end goal is to make emulation AND right to repair illegal.

 

[AtomicStarving]

Meanwhile Sony is giving 2 shit about RPCS3 lol < where you can play original games or...

Preservation matters.

Fuck N!

 

[Drew1440]

Rom's should be (completely, incl. distribution and free sharing) legal the moment the hardware it was initially released for isn't supported by the manufacturer anymore. If Nintendo wanted to suppress Mario64 Rom's being used, sell a N64 in 2023 (at most inflation adjusted) or get fucked.
If they sell a N64 in 2023, N64 Roms are illegal copies.

IMO 99% of Rom's and emulators are used by people not owning the games they play. That would be a fair deal.

Nintendo's actions would make since if they offered all of their back catalogue through Virtual Console, but they don't and I think that will hurt them in the long run. I know a few friends that have emulated some of Nintendo's games, liked them and ended up purchasing one of their consoles because of it.

 

[Sleepwalker]

Meanwhile Sony is giving 2 shit about RPCS3 lol < where you can play original games or...

Preservation matters.

Fuck N!

Sony got their asses kicked by Bleem already so they won't try again.

They'll be happy to pile on if Nintendo get some traction, no doubt.

 

[FunkMiller]

The end goal is to make emulation AND right to repair illegal.

I feel like emulation and right to repair are two different things.

Right to repair is very much about stopping companies overcharging for repair, and being allowed to get away with built in obsolescence. It's entirely justified from a consumer standpoint.

But let's be brutally honest about it, emulation is mainly about playing pirate games for free. I get why companies like Nintendo want to crack down on it. Though they really only have themselves to blame for its prevalence.

 

[VGEsoterica]

I feel like emulation and right to repair are two different things.

Right to repair is very much about stopping companies overcharging for repair, and being allowed to get away with built in obsolescence. It's entirely justified from a consumer standpoint.

But let's be brutally honest about it, emulation is mainly about playing pirate games for free. I get why companies like Nintendo want to crack down on it. Though they really only have themselves to blame for its prevalence.

They go hand in hand in the manner that companies want to stop consumers from doing what they want with what they purchased. Which is a bummer

 

[FeralEcho]

if it can be proved to be overwhelmingly used for nefarious purposes though then it can be concidered harmful.

As in piracy? Yeah? Well i have 3 things to tell Nintendo: "Zelda" "10 million" "3 days"

Their games are selling better than they ever have.That shit won't fly in court. "Our games are selling faster and better than ever but oh won't someone think of poor little Nintendo" who can't be half assed to announce a console thats not equivalent to a PS3 in fucking 2023 not that i don't love my Switch,Its one of my favourite consoles of all time in terms of library but lets not kid ourselves that this whole shit isnt just Nintendo swinging their big Dick around just cuz they can.People who emulate do so to escape the limitations of playing at fucking 15 fps in 2023 not to pirate a game.

 

[DGrayson]

Its a very interesting argument but I really fall on the side of what Steam said as its a pure delivery issue.

If media/content is availabel for a reasonable price the majority of people will not pirate.

See Spotify and Steam to some extent.

If these same goods are not available for a reasonable price then people will pirate. See all the retro gaming consoles and ecosystems that have popped up. If Nintendo wants to protect their IP the best thing they can do is make it available for sale for a reasonable price.

 

[DemonGamerTTT]

I feel like emulation and right to repair are two different things.

Right to repair is very much about stopping companies overcharging for repair, and being allowed to get away with built in obsolescence. It's entirely justified from a consumer standpoint.

But let's be brutally honest about it, emulation is mainly about playing pirate games for free. I get why companies like Nintendo want to crack down on it. Though they really only have themselves to blame for its prevalence.

Dude do you even have a clue about a emulator is?

I will guess no because of the things you said... I'll give you some clues about what emulators are..

• A software that simulates physical hardware.
• It allows people to run software(which software it's none of the emulator business, just like M$ doesn't stop you to use illegal software on windows).
• It's a new piece of thing that derivates NOTHING from the hardware it simulates.

What you're saying is the problem is kinda dumb to be honest... just think about it... it's exactly the same as saying that LG/Samsung are entitled to decide which type of content you run on your TV because there's a risk someone watches illegal content on it.

I'm baffled by how hard it is for some people to grasp this simple concept

 

[keefged4]

Dolphin using the wii keys is not a good look, however it shouldn't be too hard to remove that part of the code, then there is nothing for Nintendo to go after. It's clear though that Nintendo don't live in reality when it comes to things like this, so I expect an impending shitshow.

 

[VGEsoterica]

Dolphin using the wii keys is not a good look, however it shouldn't be too hard to remove that part of the code, then there is nothing for Nintendo to go after. It's clear though that Nintendo don't live in reality when it comes to things like this, so I expect an impending shitshow.

I’d certainly have made the end user supply the key had I been involved. Makes things a LOT easier

 

[Guilty_AI]

Remember, companies are not your friends, if they could take all rights away from you they would.

The end goal is to make emulation AND right to repair illegal.

AND sale of used games.

 

[Sorcerer]

Dolphin using the wii keys is not a good look, however it shouldn't be too hard to remove that part of the code, then there is nothing for Nintendo to go after. It's clear though that Nintendo don't live in reality when it comes to things like this, so I expect an impending shitshow.

But Dolphin is in Nintendo's sights now. Nintendo will keep trying to find a way to punish them like that pirate who just got out of jail most likely.
What happened with Bleem? They won but they ultimately lost because of the legal fees they encrued fighting Sony and went under. Is that correct? Even if you win you lose.

 

[SaintALia]

Roms are not illegal, you can legally download a rom of a game you own a physical copy of, because by law you are allowed to make a backup of any physical media you own

I think this is off.

You can't bypass copyright detection to make a backup, and downloading a rom would be illegal. You can make a backup of your own roms, providing you aren't bypassing protection measures, which would be a breach of DMCA. Hosting and making your own roms available to others to download would also be illegal.

Emulators aren't 100% legal either. Depends on the emu, but most are anyway, and as long as you aren't bundling roms or bios files in the download, it should be fine.

Basically, from what I udnerstand, Any physical copy of a game you own, you own the license to use it and make a backup of it if you aren't bypassing protection and thus in breach of DMCA, but you don't aren't actually entitled to download it from other sources, as even that original source would be in breach in the first place and the license you bought only extends to one person.

I remember multiple persons in a resetera thread who gave far more information about it that explained it better, but that's what I got.

 

[SaintALia]

But Dolphin is in Nintendo's sights now. Nintendo will keep trying to find a way to punish them like that pirate who just got out of jail most likely.
What happened with Bleem? They won but they ultimately lost because of the legal fees they encrued fighting Sony and went under. Is that correct? Even if you win you lose.

Yeah you got it right. BLEEM went under and Sony bought CVGS. SOny lost both cases pretty much.

Don't know why people liked BLEEM so much though, it was fairly crap imo. The only good thing about it was it smoothing out the graphics and saying goodbye to affine texture warping.

CVGS was FAR superior. Better compatbility, sound emulation was also better, yeah it had no real graphical enhancements, but if you wanted to play your PS game in the most compatible environment, CVGS was it. I kept using it for years till some of my discs started to rot and expse started having decent sound emulation for Vagrant Story without software mode.

 

[Kagoshima_Luke]

Maybe if Nintendo got off their asses and added more than 3 new NES games every two months to their subscription service, people would have a legal avenue to pay for these games.

 

[feynoob]

Rule n1:
Never admit your crimes or show them as they can be used as evidence against you in the court.
Rookie mistake people.

 

[FunkMiller]

Dude do you even have a clue about a emulator is?

I will guess no because of the things you said... I'll give you some clues about what emulators are..

• A software that simulates physical hardware.
• It allows people to run software(which software it's none of the emulator business, just like M$ doesn't stop you to use illegal software on windows).
• It's a new piece of thing that derivates NOTHING from the hardware it simulates.

What you're saying is the problem is kinda dumb to be honest... just think about it... it's exactly the same as saying that LG/Samsung are entitled to decide which type of content you run on your TV because there's a risk someone watches illegal content on it.

I'm baffled by how hard it is for some people to grasp this simple concept

Yea, mate. Emulator use is above board, and absolutely not primarily a way to play pirated games….

Did you just get off the boat?

I don’t necessarily agree with Nintendo’s litigious nature, but I can understand why they pursue emulators and want them stopped.

 

[ReBurn]

I get the reasoning, but let's do this again:

Is it really considered piracy if the games are not being sold by Nintendo anymore?

Why would Nintendo be harmed by someone downloading an ISO of, say, Link's Crossbow Training instead of buying it?

What options do Nintendo provide for those that want to play that specific game that users are "bypassing"?

Also, IMO second hand market for old games is the same than emulating them from an old ROM/ISO, companies don't get any benefit from it, so it existing shouldn't harm them.

The fact that something isn't for sale any more doesn't mean that the creator loses their rights to it. Companies aren't required to continue to offer you everything they've ever made just because you want it.

Nintendo is a terrible example of what you're saying. I absolutely hate that acquiring some of the stuff I used to love to play is out of reach for me when the hardware stops functioning or the media stops working. But the whole "Nintendo won't sell me a copy so I'm entitled to one for free" argument is a bit weird. When it comes to Nintendo more often than not you can still acquire what you're looking to play. Used Wii consoles and copies of Link's Crossbow Training are easy to get on the secondhand market. It's a method to obtain a copy that Nintendo presumably earned revenue from, whereas a copy of a ROM from a torrent is not that.

The lines will always be blurry though. The MAME project saved thousands of old arcade games, many created by companies that no longer exist, from disappearing forever. Emulation has saved games from obscure 80's and 90's console snd home computer platforms that weren't able to survive. So the scene serves a great purpose in helping to archive and preserve creative works. But that work is overshadowed by people who feel entitled to access to every game ever created for free, and most recently people whi just want to play free Switch games on their Steam Deck.

 

[00_Zer0]

Edit-Please delete/ignore post-responded to wrong person.