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A Reality Check About 'Terrorism' in Europe/US & How To Properly Solve It

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Lime

Member
I think this recently published article in Foreign Policy outlines some of the truths people have to face when we talk about terrorism threats and all the fear and despair that make people panic and behave irrationally and agree to undercut their own liberal principles on democracy and security. I am going to post the whole article because it's behind an intrusive subscription wall, but click the link regardless and sign up if you want. (@mods: let me know if this is not okay)

I feel like a lot of people think that making walls and closing borders somehow will help, that mass surveillance by the state solves anything, that bombing some countries in the Middle East helps, or that any day they could be killed by terrorism when in fact they have a larger probability of their couch killing them. We need realistic solutions to the problem and not Fantasy Land ideas that only makes matters worse.

No. 1: We can’t keep the bad guys out.

Borders are permeable. The United States has more than 95,000 miles of shoreline. Greece has 6,000 islands and some 10,000 miles of coastline. You can walk from Iraq and Syria into Turkey and from Turkey into Bulgaria. Eight-hundred million people fly into U.S. airports each year, and 1.7 billion people fly into Europe’s airports. No wall can be long enough or high enough to keep out the truly desperate or determined, and there aren’t enough guards in the world to monitor every inch of coastline or border.

No. 2: Besides, the threat is already inside.

The 2005 terrorist attacks in London were carried out by British citizens, the Boston Marathon attack was perpetrated by a U.S. citizen and a U.S. permanent resident, and the Paris attacks appear to have been carried out mainly by French citizens. Every country on earth has its angry young men, and the Internet offers a dozen convenient ideologies to justify every kind of resentment. Adding more border guards — or keeping out refugees fleeing war and misery, as too many members of Congress seem eager to do — won’t help when the threat is already inside.

No. 3: More surveillance won’t get rid of terrorism, either.

As Edward Snowden’s 2013 leaks made clear, the United States is already surveilling the heck out of the entire planet and so are half the governments in Europe. The trouble is, the more data you collect — the more satellite imagery and drone footage and emails and phone calls and texts you monitor — the harder it gets to separate the signal from the noise. The U.S. National Security Agency intercepts billions of communications each day, according to a Washington Post investigation, but despite sophisticated computer programs designed to detect “suspicious” activity, not everything can be analyzed — and a lot of time gets wasted on false positives.

Sometimes, the authorities get lucky and stumble on a plot before it can be carried out. Data from electronic intercepts, surveillance cameras, and the like often end up being most useful after an attack, however: Once the authorities know who they’re looking for, they can backtrack to gain a better understanding of how an attack came about, and they can sometimes link attackers to previously unknown plotters. When attacks are thwarted before they can be carried out, it’s usually as a result of the same factors that keep ordinary crime rates from going through the roof: good investigative work, vigilant communities, and bad guys who often make dumb mistakes.

No. 4: Defeating the Islamic State won’t make terrorism go away.

Don’t kid yourself. The Islamic State isn’t even the most lethal terrorist group operating today: Nigeria’s Boko Haram wins that title. Regardless, before there was the Islamic State, there was al Qaeda, which brought us 9/11 and the Madrid and London bombings; before al Qaeda there was Hezbollah and Hamas; and before Hamas there was the Abu Nidal group, Black September, and various other PLO factions. Europe saw more terrorist attacks — and more deaths from terrorist attacks — in the 1970s and 1980s than it has seen since 9/11. The Islamic State may now be the flavor du jour for the world’s angry young men, but if every single Islamic State fighter in Syria and Iraq is obliterated, the Middle East will still seethe — and so will the banlieues of Paris.

And, no, it’s not just Islam. Right-wing extremists in the United States still kill more people than jihadis. The 2011 attacks in Norway — which left 77 people dead — were carried out by a single far-right terrorist, Anders Behring Breivik. Since 2006, more than half of all deaths in terrorist attacks in the West have been caused by non-Islamist “lone-wolf” attackers, most motivated by right-wing extremism or separatist sentiments. You can’t even count on Buddhists to be peaceful: On Oct. 23, 2012, for instance, Buddhist militants attacked the Burmese village of Yan Thei and massacred at least 70 people, including 28 children, most of whom were hacked to death.
No. 5: Terrorism still remains a relatively minor threat, statistically speaking.

That’s no consolation to the victims or their loved ones, but it might offer some solace to the rest of us. Those scary statistics you sometimes see about the alleged vast increase in global terrorism include attacks occurring in regions wracked by ongoing armed conflicts, such as Syria, Iraq, Nigeria, and Afghanistan. According to the 2015 Global Terrorism Index, between 2000 and 2014, only 2.6 percent of victims of terrorism lived in Western countries. Stay away from active war zones, and the average American is far more likely to be struck by lightning than killed by a terrorist. And gun violence in the United States? I won’t even go there.

No matter how you look at it, those of us who live in the West have it pretty easy. Gun violence in the United States notwithstanding, we live longer, we’re less likely to die of preventable diseases, and we’re far less likely to die violently than those in non-Western countries. If you live in Iraq, Libya, or Syria — or Nigeria, Afghanistan, El Salvador, Honduras, or South Sudan — violent death is a constant possibility. If you live in Paris or Boston or Ottawa, relax.
No. 6: But don’t relax too much, because things will probably get worse before they get better.

From a historical perspective, the relative safety and security currently enjoyed by those in the Western world is anomalous. Until about 1850, life expectancy at birth hovered around 40 years in most of Europe; today, it’s over 80.

The history of the West is every bit as violent as the modern Middle East, with brief periods of relative peace punctuated by periods of bloody conflict.

Don’t count on this period of relative Western safety continuing. Someday, the political, ethnic, and religious turmoil roiling the Middle East may end, but that day probably won’t be soon — and probably won’t be hastened by a more aggressive Western military campaign against the Islamic State.

If anything, the world is likely to see an uptick in violent conflict in the coming decades, and the West is unlikely to be fully spared. The Syrian refugee crisis has given Europe a taste of what can happen when substantial populations flee one region and try to settle in another. European border controls, refugee assistance systems, and humanitarian instincts were quickly swamped by the sudden influx of more than 750,000 refugees, and though most of those refugees were exactly who they said they were, a handful were not. Imagine what will happen a few decades down the road, as climate change fuels new conflicts over resources and vast populations move in search of a better life. One recent study suggests that portions of the Middle East will become literally too hot for human habitation by century’s end. What then?

No. 7: Meanwhile, poorly planned Western actions can make things still worse.

So in the wake of the Paris attacks, the fat, happy, over-privileged West wants to turn away the hundreds of thousands of desperate Muslim families seeking shelter and peace, just because a tiny fraction of those refugees might be militants? Islamic militants couldn’t ask for a better recruiting gift.

The same goes for stepping up military action against the Islamic State. If we respond to the Paris attacks by sending a large number of ground combat troops into Syria and Iraq, we once again become foreign occupiers — and big fat targets. If we respond by bombing every Islamic State target we can find, odds are high we’ll end up bombing some people we never wanted or intended to bomb, and this won’t help us make new friends. Also, if we take out the Islamic State in Syria, we may just end up helping Syria’s other extremist rebels — or helping embattled Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, though it was Assad and other brutal regional leaders whose actions helped inspire and strengthen the Islamic State in the first place. Besides, what happens next in Syria, do we get rid of the Islamic State or Assad? As Iraq should remind us, nature abhors a vacuum.

Military force can play a role in preventing and responding to terrorist attacks, but when we don’t know who to target and we don’t fully understand the regional dynamics, that role should be small.
No. 8: Terrorism is a problem to be managed.

I can’t believe it’s still necessary to repeat this, but — no, Fox News, we can’t “win” a “war” against terrorism or terror or terrorists anymore than we can “win” a war on crime or drugs or poverty. But though we can’t eliminate all risk of terrorism, we can adopt sensible policies to reduce the risk and damage caused by terrorist attacks. We can fund moderate Muslim organizations that offer alternatives to extremist interpretations of Islam, for instance, increase law enforcement outreach in communities that are targeted by terrorist recruiters, and look for ways to increase community incentives to report suspicious activity — perhaps by exploring rehabilitation approaches to dealing with misguided teens who are attracted by violent ideologies but haven’t yet taken decisive steps to harm anyone. We can also look for reasonable ways to give additional tools to law enforcement officials, as long as we also add safeguards to prevent abuses. If we’re creative in our approaches, we can find ways to make terrorist attacks a little harder to carry out successfully and make successful attacks less rewarding to those who carry them out.

No. 9: To do this, however, we need to move beyond the political posturing that characterizes most public debates about counterterrorism and instead speak honestly about the costs and benefits of different approaches.

We can throw more border guards and bombs and police and TSA and NSA agents at the problem of terrorism, and some or all of these things may well buy down short-term risk, reducing the odds that terrorists will engage in successful attacks. But each of these approaches has costs, too, some financial and some human and some political. More police might mean more thwarted terrorist plots, but ham-handed policing might mean more potential recruits for the Islamic State or its successor. More police will certainly mean higher public safety budgets, which, in a world of finite resources, means less money for something else. The same is true for airport security, NSA programs, and airstrikes: If implemented poorly, they can cause a backlash, and even if implemented thoughtfully, they cost money and take resources away from something else.

Fourteen years after 9/11, we still have astonishingly little empirical evidence about which counterterrorism techniques are effective and which aren’t. In large part, this is because governments haven’t made it a priority to fund or conduct evidence-based counterterrorism research. This needs to change.

We need to be hardheaded and unsentimental about this, just as we’re hardheaded about the prevention of crime, disease, car accidents, and a thousand other more run-of-the-mill risks. How much do we think more police (or border guards or NSA programs or bombs) will make a difference, and at what point will we see diminishing marginal returns? At what point do we say: Yes, we could reduce the risk of successful terrorist attacks by another 5 percent if we added 5,000 more border guards, but the costs are just too high? Or even: We could reduce the risk by 85 percent if we turn France or the United States into police states, but we’d rather accept the added short-term risk than abandon the values that make our countries what they are?

No. 10: We need to stop rewarding terrorism.

We can change the cost-benefit calculus for would-be terrorists by reducing terrorism’s benefits as well as by reducing its costs. Terrorism is used by states and non-state actors alike both because it’s relatively cheap and easy — and because it works. From al Qaeda’s perspective, the 9/11 attacks were a spectacular success. The attacks cost the United States billions of dollars: We closed stock exchanges, halted air travel, and started expensive and inconclusive wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. From the Islamic State’s perspective, the Paris attacks are working, too: The anti-refugee backlash will aid Islamic State recruiting, and tourism is taking a hit even here in the United States, where fear alone has led schools to cancel class trips to Washington. The more the West flails around with talk of bombs and border guards and police, the happier the Islamic State becomes.

The cheapest and easiest way to reduce the benefits of terrorism is to stop overreacting. That 130 people were killed in the Paris attacks is a terrible tragedy and a vicious crime, but 16,000 people in the United States are murdered each year in “ordinary” homicides, 30,000 die in accidental falls, 35,000 die in car crashes, and 39,000 die of accidental poisoning. We should mourn each and every death, and we should take all reasonable steps to prevent more deaths from occurring and punish those responsible for intentionally inflicting harm.

But we need to stop viewing terrorism as unique and aberrational. The more we panic and posture and overreact, the more terrorism we’ll get

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/20...y-inside-uncomfortable-truths-terrorism-isis/
 
You could also try to get people of different faiths to interact with each other and encourage pluralism as much as possible. Terrorists involved in these events are young people, terrorism is what gives them purpose, so you have to displace that early on.
 
I feel a lot of these points are a bit useless. Sure, you can't keep everyone out. Doesn't mean you shouldn't at least put some checks in place.

More surveillance is not the complete answer, but it can certainly help. I think in the attacks in Belgium, they asked the NSA for help and based on that info got to the place the terrorists were. It ended in a shoot out and they escaped, but they found them.

Terrorism is minor here compared to other countries. And there is gun violence in the US. How does acknowledging that fact change anything in France? Because other countries face larger or different issues doesn't mean you shouldn't solve yours.

We should mourn each and every death is a fine stance, but there is a big difference between having groups that want to actively kill you when they can and accidentally get hit by a car or illness.

Panicking doesn't solve anything, that is true. But I must say that I haven't seen much real panicking over the last years while there have been multiple attacks in Europe.
 

Lime

Member
I feel a lot of these points are a bit useless. Sure, you can't keep everyone out. Doesn't mean you shouldn't at least put some checks in place.

More surveillance is not the complete answer, but it can certainly help. I think in the attacks in Belgium, they asked the NSA for help and based on that info got to the place the terrorists were. It ended in a shoot out and they escaped, but they found them.

Terrorism is minor here compared to other countries. And there is gun violence in the US. How does acknowledging that fact change anything in France? Because other countries face larger or different issues doesn't mean you shouldn't solve yours.

We should mourn each and every death is a fine stance, but there is a big difference between having groups that want to actively kill you when they can and accidentally get hit by a car or illness.

Panicking doesn't solve anything, that is true. But I must say that I haven't seen much real panicking over the last years while there have been multiple attacks in Europe.

Throwing billions of Euro and dollars at measures that don't do a damn thing against an unsolvable problem while cutting costs of education, healthcare, social security and so on is just over-reaction and frankly braindead and irresponsible.

And that's just the economic argument. Other people think that closing borders is a feasible solution, that racial profiling will ensure safety and security from something that is so unlikely to happen, and that destroying the principles of a relatively free society will help matters.

The article's point also relates to France's own problems. There are bigger issues and more dangerous challenges that aren't terrorism, so panicking and enacting fascist measures because of 130 people were killed is just ridiculous.
 
I feel a lot of these points are a bit useless. Sure, you can't keep everyone out. Doesn't mean you shouldn't at least put some checks in place.

More surveillance is not the complete answer, but it can certainly help. I think in the attacks in Belgium, they asked the NSA for help and based on that info got to the place the terrorists were. It ended in a shoot out and they escaped, but they found them.

Terrorism is minor here compared to other countries. And there is gun violence in the US. How does acknowledging that fact change anything in France? Because other countries face larger or different issues doesn't mean you shouldn't solve yours.

We should mourn each and every death is a fine stance, but there is a big difference between having groups that want to actively kill you when they can and accidentally get hit by a car or illness.

Panicking doesn't solve anything, that is true. But I must say that I haven't seen much real panicking over the last years while there have been multiple attacks in Europe.

That ridiculous citizenship posturing last winter, the empty yet harmful Burkini posturing, or absurd digital surveillance laws are all things that happened in France and are very much a political version of panicking.
 

AlphaDump

Gold Member
The US has its issues, sure, buy i'd take the US over a Russian presence any day.

For all the terrorism and political disorder going on globally, i tend to look at who it benefits the most from the evil. Turkey is white hot with current examples, from shot down airlines, counter attacks toward Russian fighters, false coups, and instilling Marshall law. I'll eat my foot if Russia doesnt somehow benefit, if they havent already.
 
Throwing billions of Euro and dollars at measures that don't do a damn thing against an unsolvable problem while cutting costs of education, healthcare, social security and so on is just over-reaction.

And that's just the economic argument. Other people think that closing borders is a feasible solution, that racial profiling will ensure safety and security from something that is so unlikely to happen, and that destroying the principles of a relatively free society will help matters.
It's a matter of balance. The article reads a bit like this stuff is inevitable and measures are useless. I disagree with that. Border controls are needed to some extend. Surveillance is needed.

The article is also talking about things that just aren't happening. The response to the Paris attacks hasn't been sending a large amount of troops into Syria and Iraq - which is a good choice from France.

I just feel like writing off terrorism as inevitable and something we need to accept is not a good thing. Just like we shouldn't accept those car related deaths and accidental poisonings. But you can't just compare those things and use one to make light of the other.

The cutting of costs of education and healthcare also hasn't that much to do with measures against terrorism. Looking at the costs, those things are in a whole other ballpark.

But I agree that totally closing borders and such are not possible and shouldn't be done. But that doesn't mean we can't take a better look at who is coming in and manage that better.
 

Lime

Member
It's a matter of balance. The article reads a bit like this stuff is inevitable and measures are useless. I disagree with that. Border controls are needed to some extend. Surveillance is needed.

The article is also talking about things that just aren't happening. The response to the Paris attacks hasn't been sending a large amount of troops into Syria and Iraq - which is a good choice from France.

The response to the Bataclan attacks have been to bomb Syria and declare war with ISIS. It has also resulted in Marshall Law and further popularity of racist and fascist party like Front National, along with ridiculous discrimination like burkinis recently.

I just feel like writing off terrorism as inevitable and something we need to accept is not a good thing. Just like we shouldn't accept those car related deaths and accidental poisonings. But you can't just compare those things and use one to make light of the other.

No one is saying to accept it and not do anything. The article is saying that just like we accept car deaths and accidental poisonings without going into full panic mode, so should we do the same with combating terrorism instead of throwing billions of euros at purposeless surveillance that governments use against their own citizens, instead of bombing innocent people who have nothing to do with terrorist attacks, instead of undercutting our democratic and justice ideals. Due to media coverage and fear-mongering, people go to such insane lengths to combat terrorism when it's something that isn't even that impactful and which has been much worse in the 70's and 80's. Did governments and states back in the 70's roll under and compromise on their own ideals due to these terrorist attacks? No. Same shit now, yet people are willing to take irresponsible measures.

The cutting of costs of education and healthcare also hasn't that much to do with measures against terrorism. Looking at the costs, those things are in a whole other ballpark.

Cuts are constantly being made in education and healthcare and social security, but somehow police, intelligence agencies, and military are receiving more funding without question or debate. At least in some countries.
 
The response to the Bataclan attacks have been to bomb Syria and declare war with ISIS. It has also resulted in Marshall Law and further popularity of racist and fascist party like Front National, along with ridiculous discrimination like burkinis recently.



No one is saying to accept it and not do anything. The article is saying that just like we accept car deaths and accidental poisonings without going into full panic mode, so should we do the same with combating terrorism instead of throwing billions of euros at purposeless surveillance that governments use against their own citizens, instead of bombing innocent people who have nothing to do with terrorist attacks, instead of undercutting our democratic and justice ideals. Due to media coverage and fear-mongering, people go to such insane lengths to combat terrorism when it's something that isn't even that impactful and which has been much worse in the 70's and 80's. Did governments and states back in the 70's roll under and compromise on their own ideals due to these terrorist attacks? No. Same shit now, yet people are willing to take irresponsible measures.



Cuts are constantly being made in education and healthcare and social security, but somehow police, intelligence agencies, and military are receiving more funding without question or debate. At least in some countries.
I agree with you partially about the panic. But I don't think people can be blamed for being scared of it and government for trying to provide a defense against it. The argument that issue X is worse or it was worse in time Y doesn't solve anything also. If people are afraid, they are afraid and the people at the top should provide answers. Those answers I think are still lacking from the traditional parties, which leads to the rise of the far right in Europe. I don't like it, but those other parties seriously need to get their messages out with an actual answer sometime to prevent worse.

The bombing thing I can go either way with. Not doing anything in Syria is also not a good answer, since IS and Assad are also doing terrible acts and just sitting back will be condemned also. That conflict has gotten to a point where there are no good solutions anymore.

Cuts are being made, but that can't be blamed on police, intelligence and military. Those sectors (at least police and military) have been underfunded also for ages, to the point they can't even do their jobs properly and are using outdated tech and have a real lack of personal. The rising costs of healthcare and educations have their roots in other places and are unrelated to that.
 

G.ZZZ

Member
Genericism and a whole lot of fantasy in there.

You can't change human nature. People will always overreact to plane crashes and terrorist attacks compared to car accidents even though car accidents are the first cause of death for young people in the western world. All risk management system keep that biological wiring into account. People WILL percieve risk differently if:

- it's caused by factors in our control or outside our control
- it's temporally dilated or concentrated in rare but big events (biologically speaking the first pose no risk to the survival of the species, the second do)

You talk about giving perspective? Good luck bro. You're talking about reprogramming our biological instincts to something more rationalized and utilitarist. I'm not sure that's possible even in theory.
 

Erevador

Member
So in the wake of the Paris attacks, the fat, happy, over-privileged West wants to turn away the hundreds of thousands of desperate Muslim families seeking shelter and peace, just because a tiny fraction of those refugees might be militants? Islamic militants couldn’t ask for a better recruiting gift.
Everything about this conclusion is highly debatable.

This article was written in November 2015.

I am more or less certain the writer would find it somewhat harder to express that sentiment today.
 

Jenov

Member
"Right-wing extremists in the United States still kill more people than jihadis"

? ??

There have been more way more deaths from 9/11, and stuff like San Bernardino than abortion clinic killings and Oklahoma city bombing?
 

Kthulhu

Member
"Right-wing extremists in the United States still kill more people than jihadis"

? ??

There have been more way more deaths from 9/11, and stuff like San Bernardino than abortion clinic killings and Oklahoma city bombing?

I believe it is referring to post 9/11. I've seen the statistic before and it's referring to after 9/11.
 
I don't remember the 'way more people die from X' being brought up with other terror attacks that were far less serious.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/06/25...st-terror-dylann-roof-anders-behring-breivik/


The New Face of Global White Nationalist Terror
The Charleston shooter, like Anders Breivik, shows how the radical white right has become ever more unhinged and dangerous.

This is the new face of global white nationalist terror.

To the extent that the white nationalism poses a significant threat, it is not coming from the movement’s official organizations or celebrity figureheads but rather from anonymous Internet readers obliged to nobody but themselves. And as the movement becomes increasingly flexible and decentralized, its community of followers will grow larger and more diverse in its grievances and desired solutions. Combating this emerging trend is a daunting task. Not only are white nationalist terrorists likely to fit the lone wolf profile, but few can predict how they will interpret the call to revolution and just who they will target with their acts of violence.

No mentions of normal gun violence, car accidents or falls. Or how any attempt to stop this kind of terrorism is futile and counter productive.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
I feel a lot of these points are a bit useless. Sure, you can't keep everyone out. Doesn't mean you shouldn't at least put some checks in place.

More surveillance is not the complete answer, but it can certainly help. I think in the attacks in Belgium, they asked the NSA for help and based on that info got to the place the terrorists were. It ended in a shoot out and they escaped, but they found them.

Terrorism is minor here compared to other countries. And there is gun violence in the US. How does acknowledging that fact change anything in France? Because other countries face larger or different issues doesn't mean you shouldn't solve yours.

We should mourn each and every death is a fine stance, but there is a big difference between having groups that want to actively kill you when they can and accidentally get hit by a car or illness.

Panicking doesn't solve anything, that is true. But I must say that I haven't seen much real panicking over the last years while there have been multiple attacks in Europe.

Yep. It's a pretty trash article. Some terrorists are citizens but the 911 hijackers weren't. Also what the fuck does Buddhist terrorism in Burma have to do with anything?
 

Plywood

NeoGAF's smiling token!
Yep. It's a pretty trash article. Some terrorists are citizens but the 911 hijackers weren't. Also what the fuck does Buddhist terrorism in Burma have to do with anything?
A long time ago, I was in Burma. My friends and I were working for the local government. They were trying to buy the loyalty of tribal leaders by bribing them with precious stones. But their caravans were being raided in a forest north of Rangoon by a bandit. So, we went looking for the stones. But in six months, we never met anybody who traded with him. One day, I saw a child playing with a ruby the size of a tangerine. The bandit had been throwing them away.
 

AYF 001

Member
Here's a crazy idea: How about global powers stop playing Dr. Frankenstein when it comes to foreign policy? That instead of manipulating third parties into fighting each other for our benefit, only for them to turn around and become our enemies, we empower their countries with the knowledge and expertise they need to become self-reliant, or at least able to function in a global marketplace in a manner that is mutually beneficial to all? That instead of creating the conditions that give rise to those groups and attempting to wash our hands of the consequences, we work to prevent those conditions, to take responsibility and help those affected, and to learn from the mistakes of those involved with such groups.

Oh, that's right. Because it requires admitting fault, exerting actual effort, and giving up the comfortable first-world lifestyle in order to help other. How silly of me to suggest such a thing.
 
Nope, xenophobia, racism and anti-establishment sentiments are the simple reason. What "the left" does doesn't matter in this regard

I see the EU left and this author mirroring the arguments of the pro-gun crowd in the US ("It's an intractable problem! It's too late to change it! Tons of people die every day from *other thing*! Do we really care about a few deaths here and there? Bu bu bu Mental Health!") only without the conviction, the wealthy lobbying arm, the intangible "fun factor", or the appeal to old-fashioned nationalism.

My initial reply was in response to a previous thread written by the OP, in which he lamented why the European right had made surges in the past 10 years. If the left's response to terrorism ranges from "deal with it" to "relax, it's not a big deal" to "Look over there!", they won't win support or elections. People want to believe that the government cares about organized murder of their citizenry. And yes, they're willing to embrace right-wing solutions when the left's solutions are well, whatever it is this is.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Seems like the author is arguing that we should treat terrorism like natural disasters. To be mitigated and planned for, then cleaned up.

Not prevention.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
 
If we put the same effort and resources to fight global warming and inequality I wonder what could be accomplished. I agree that terrorism needs to be attacked as the threat that represents. But I agree that people overreact and the terrorist actors count on that overreaction to further their goals in the long term.
 
Genericism and a whole lot of fantasy in there.

You can't change human nature. People will always overreact to plane crashes and terrorist attacks compared to car accidents even though car accidents are the first cause of death for young people in the western world. All risk management system keep that biological wiring into account. People WILL percieve risk differently if:

- it's caused by factors in our control or outside our control
- it's temporally dilated or concentrated in rare but big events (biologically speaking the first pose no risk to the survival of the species, the second do)

You talk about giving perspective? Good luck bro. You're talking about reprogramming our biological instincts to something more rationalized and utilitarist. I'm not sure that's possible even in theory.
That's why we need a better placebo.
 
I see the EU left and this author mirroring the arguments of the pro-gun crowd in the US ("It's an intractable problem! It's too late to change it! Tons of people die every day from *other thing*! Do we really care about a few deaths here and there? Bu bu bu Mental Health!") only without the conviction, the wealthy lobbying arm, the intangible "fun factor", or the appeal to old-fashioned nationalism.

My initial reply was in response to a previous thread written by the OP, in which he lamented why the European right had made surges in the past 10 years. If the left's response to terrorism ranges from "deal with it" to "relax, it's not a big deal" to "Look over there!", they won't win support or elections. People want to believe that the government cares about organized murder of their citizenry. And yes, they're willing to embrace right-wing solutions when the left's solutions are well, whatever it is this is.

So what should the left do. Be xenophobic too? Ban some muslim women's garbs? What? Do share
 

Betty

Banned
So what should the left do. Be xenophobic too? Ban some muslim women's garbs? What? Do share

The left should expect to continue to lose ground as long as these attacks happen and people get more worked up.

And according to the OP they will keep happening and even get much worse.

I mean I'm left leaning myself, but my country just decided to leave the EU because the majority are afraid of brown people, I don't see the left getting stronger any time soon unless a miracle occurs.
 
The left should expect to continue to lose ground as long as these attacks happen and people get more worked up.

And according to the OP they will keep happening and even get much worse.

I mean I'm left leaning myself, but my country just decided to leave the EU because the majority are afraid of brown people, I don't see the left getting stronger any time soon unless a miracle occurs.

Ok and what's the solution get on that racist train too?
 
The left should expect to continue to lose ground as long as these attacks happen and people get more worked up.

And according to the OP they will keep happening and even get much worse.

I mean I'm left leaning myself, but my country just decided to leave the EU because the majority are afraid of brown people, I don't see the left getting stronger any time soon unless a miracle occurs.
You have incompetent politicians.
 
The article gets surveillance wrong.

Recently the FBI notified the RCMP about a radicalized young man, and the perp was intercepted by the agents in time

The "do nothing" attitude of the Fluffy Far-Left is unrealistic

Many plots and perps have been successfully thwarted due to intelligence sharing and law enforcement
 
The only individuals that know what it would take to stop violent terrorism without violence are violent terrorists. However that would take evidence based interactions with them and at the moment, deservedly so, we are more focused on blowing them to pieces. That method will only bear out their blood splatter pattern and sadly ours.
 

Jenov

Member
I believe it is referring to post 9/11. I've seen the statistic before and it's referring to after 9/11.

Even cherry picking to exclude 9/11, apparently that quote only registers as a half truth at best: http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...11-right-wing-extremists-killed-more-america/

tom-halftrue.gif
 

jelly

Member
I think people are generally quite calm about it all, the problem people really have is immigration and what they see as the world around them changing and they fear that change. Terrorism is a problem that needs to be fought but it's more of a scapegoat for get new people and other cultures out of their culture.
 

kirblar

Member
The article gets surveillance wrong.

Recently the FBI notified the RCMP about a radicalized young man, and the perp was intercepted by the agents in time

The "do nothing" attitude of the Fluffy Far-Left is unrealistic

Many plots and perps have been successfully thwarted due to intelligence sharing and law enforcement
I would argue not only is it unrealistic, it's also contributing to the rightward swing in the EU by failing to provide a reasonable alternative.
 

Pusherman

Member
I see the EU left and this author mirroring the arguments of the pro-gun crowd in the US ("It's an intractable problem! It's too late to change it! Tons of people die every day from *other thing*! Do we really care about a few deaths here and there? Bu bu bu Mental Health!") only without the conviction, the wealthy lobbying arm, the intangible "fun factor", or the appeal to old-fashioned nationalism.

My initial reply was in response to a previous thread written by the OP, in which he lamented why the European right had made surges in the past 10 years. If the left's response to terrorism ranges from "deal with it" to "relax, it's not a big deal" to "Look over there!", they won't win support or elections. People want to believe that the government cares about organized murder of their citizenry. And yes, they're willing to embrace right-wing solutions when the left's solutions are well, whatever it is this is.

But terrorism isn't a huge problem in most of the West. Treating it like it is because certain segments within politics portray it as such for their own benefit is just playing into the right's game. The Netherlands has not had an Islamic terrorist attack on its soil so far, unless you want to count the assassination of Theo van Gogh. And yet, our Trump, Geert Wilders, has released a pamphlet calling for the closing of all mosques and Islamic schools, a ban on the Quran, the outlawing of the hijab in public institutions and a swift return for all refugees. Pretending that these outrageously discriminatory demands are fueled by anything other than blatant racism would be disingenuous and ultimately just play into hands of the right. Terrorism has as much to do with the success of the PVV, the Front National and Ukip as it has to do with the success of Trump, i.e. very little. All of the aforementioned are racist nationalists and the left should always call them out on it, not pretend that they merely reached an actual point inelegantly. Articles like the one in the OP are very welcome. And I think Hillary and the Democratic Party have responded perfectly to Trump, never legitimizing his claims, always calling out his fascist tendencies and always taking the high ground in calling for more inclusivity. I wish our left-wing politicians fought back as intelligently and bravely as the Democrats have been doing. Contrary to what you seem to believe the right wing parties in Europe have in fact been the ones incapable of dealing with the issue of terrorism and Islam with any honesty or decency. Pretending that they're the ones at least doing 'something' is just legitimizing their racism.
 
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