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[cgcg]

God doesn't step in because of free will.

So all those horrible biological diseases...because free will.

Hi-Five.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Seriously though, isn't Judeo Christianity rooted in the old religions where light and dark were basically two opposing forces of near equal strength?

No, Christianity is rooted in the belief that God is more powerful than anything else.

 

[CosmicQueso]

Read the bible. Animals do not have free will :/ Only humans are blessed with this ability.

Yeah, I go to the bible for science.

 

[Zomba13]

I think the thing is, how I see it at least, that if God was an all knowing, all seeing, all powerful being of pure love and grace then why do we have the horrible stuff? God is supposed to be kind and love us but why all the punishment? Supposing for the moment that God was real and we had him to thank for the miracle of life and all the good things that happen to us, he's also the one that lets our family die painful deaths, that let old men in positions of power rape children, that lets groups of people kill schools full of children because of their idea of what God wants.

It's just horrible shit that a kind and caring God wouldn't allow. Now, if youw ant to argue that God isn't all loving, all powerful, kind and caring and is in fact more like the Greek or Roman gods in that they were petty and had many flaws then fine, but that isn't the God people preach about.

 

[HappyBivouac]

I totally understand that there are atheists that have come to their own conclusions about god and lack thereof from their own education and understanding of the world. This is totally respectable.

I also understand that humans are emotional beings that make decisions illogically based on those emotions. I think it's not entirely ridiculous to think that a decent portion of the atheist populace didn't come from kids that grew up in the church that then realized they were deceived in some form or fashion, got angry or sad about it and then formulated whatever they could based off of those emotions to disprove the idea of god.

Except nobody has ever had to disprove the idea of god to begin with. It's not something that needs to be disproved, because there is literally not a scrap of evidence for it. When there's no evidence for something, it's on the people claiming its truth to find such evidence in order to prove the truth of their claims.

Sorry, but when an idea is based on faith, and faith alone, nobody has to disprove anything. Sure, plenty of atheists are sad or angry about religion, but that has nothing to do with a need to disprove god's existence. The need to do so simply doesn't exist. It is a logical contradiction.

 

[PhantomHound]

OK, you're gonna have to give a specific definition of what "free will" actually is, because for myself and a lot of other atheists the extent that dogs and other animals have control over their actions is the same as humans.

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

 

[FloatOn]

No one is saying this!

You're honestly using the argument from that "God is Not Dead" movie and it makes you come of as unbelievably naive.

Also, your attempts to justify meaningless suffering is offensive to those of us who have seen true pointless suffering.

I've never seen that movie. And I'm not attempting to justify meaningless suffering.

Did you not read the part where I said "I don't know how to answer that" with regards to the poster that asked me about babies that live in a pain for a short time and then die?

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

Yep, animals do that.

I mean you really don't think animals act on their own discretion? You have any cats?

 

[super-heated plasma]

If everything was a perfect happy paradise, then what would be the point of life? There would be nothing to strive for. Nothing to make us want to better ourselves. Nothing that would make each joyful moment that much more meaningful.

Through suffering, and through loss we learn to appreciate the good things in life that much more. If the world was just a hippys dream come true, why would we even need to exist in the first place? How would we learn to thank God for the things in life that do make us happy amidst all the shit? All we would know is everything is perfect. In fact there would probably be no death because 'oh a loving God would never make us die'. So now we are all just perfect immortal beings living in paradise without any real purpose to our existence other than just being there to pleasure ourselves and somehow never getting bored of not having obstacles to overcome.

But hey, I'm probably way off base here. I'm sure Stephen Fry and other atheists have it all truly figured out and can see the unfolding of the cosmos in its true form unlike the rest of us. They truly are the all knowing ones, which I guess makes them Gods in a way. Imagine that.

 

[RM8]

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

Kind of like when my dog decided to pee inside because it was raining and there's no way he would get his paws wet?

 

[riskVSreward]

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

Sounds like every living thing to me, unless you got more animal science in the bible...

 

[King_Moc]

But we don't dominate animals beyond having an unjustified and stupid sense of superiority over animals. You speak as if we could control them or something. I'm still pretty sure my cat will continue doing whatever he wants.

One of my cats just dragged his bed from the front hall to the hallway and is now sleeping there, by the front door. I have a friend whose cat can open the kitchen cupboard where the cat food is. It is definitely free will. I can understand talking about no free will when you mean amoebas and stuff, but no way all animals.

 

[Zomba13]

Except nobody has ever had to disprove the idea of god to begin with. It's not something that needs to be disproved, because there is literally not a scrap of evidence for it. When there's no evidence for something, it's on the people claiming its truth to find such evidence in order to prove the truth of their claims.

Sorry, but when an idea is based on faith, and faith alone, nobody has to disprove anything. Sure, plenty of atheists are sad or angry about religion, but that has nothing to do with a need to disprove god's existence. The need to do so simply doesn't exist. It is a logical contradiction.

Yeah. The burden of proof should be on the religious ones. I don't believe in a thing, I shouldn't have to prove that thing doesn't exist, people that believe in thing should prove that thing exists.

 

[Deleted member 20920]

Exactly. My two best friends are Christians, one of them being a youth pastor, and what I always tell them when they ask why I don't believe in God is this: I've looked at the evidence over my time growing up in Church, and its led me to the conclusion that there is no God. BUT even if their belief system is true and the Christian God is real and created everything, etc, I have no interest in "serving" him knowing how much of an asshole he is.

Anyone who creates an entire planet worth of creatures for the sole purpose of worshipping him all their lives, and then puts them with something that they can't eat but inevitably will, with a being who he knows will try to get them to eat it, and then punishes everyone for all of eternity for that one mistake, doesn't deserve to be praised. And that's only a small fraction of the stuff the Bible claims he's done.

I never understood the need for worship. At least with the many chinese deities that I'm familiar with, the general understanding that I have is that prayers and offerings are fairly much an exchange or sorts. People pray to the god of prosperity because they want more mone, to the goddess of fertility if they want children and to the goddess of the sea if they want more fish. Worship as an exchange and not as a ticket into heaven or hell.

 

[Cyan]

I also understand that humans are emotional beings that make decisions illogically based on those emotions. I think it's not entirely ridiculous to think that a decent portion of the atheist populace didn't come from kids that grew up in the church that then realized they were deceived in some form or fashion, got angry or sad about it and then formulated whatever they could based off of those emotions to disprove the idea of god.

My impression--and I may be off base here--is that the subset of atheist that you see on r/atheism, the stereotypical angry atheist who yells at religious people and talks about magical sky fairies and whatnot, that these are the people who grew up in strongly religious families, who were indoctrinated into some religion or another, and thus when they finally came to the conclusion that their religion wasn't true, they got angry. Not angry at God, but angry at their family, their friends, their church.

So yes, of course there are emotional atheists. But I think you're incorrect about where their emotion is directed.

 

[HappyBivouac]

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

And the next step is to provide proof--in the face of overwhelming evidence against such a claim--that dogs, cats, mice, and monkeys do not possess such a power.

 

[reckless]

If everything was a perfect happy paradise, then what would be the point of life? There would be nothing to strive for. Nothing to make us want to better ourselves. Nothing that would make each joyful moment that much more meaningful.

Through suffering, and through loss we learn to appreciate the good thing in life that much more. If the world was just a hippys dream come true, why would we even need to exist in the first place? How would we learn to thank God for the things in life that do make us happy amidst all the shit? All we would know is everything is perfect. In fact there would probably be no death because 'oh a loving God would never make us die'. So now we are all just perfect immortal beings living in paradise without any real purpose to our existence other than just being there to pleasure ourselves and somehow never getting bored of not having obstacles to overcome.

But hey, I'm probably way off base here. I'm sure Stephen Fry and other atheists have it all truly figure out and can see the unfolding of the cosmos in its true form unlike the rest of us. They truly are the all knowing ones, which I guess makes them Gods in a way. Pretty funny.

Don't all of those problems come up with heaven? But people still strive to get to heaven for their entire lives.

And you don't need suffering for there to be joy or happiness.

 

[riskVSreward]

But hey, I'm probably way off base here. I'm sure Stephen Fry and other atheists have it all truly figure out and can see the unfolding of the cosmos in its true form unlike the rest of us. They truly are the all knowing ones, which I guess makes them Gods in a way. Pretty funny.

No, we just base our beliefs on evidence and not wild assed assertions from ancient books written by uneducated desert dwellers.

 

[FloatOn]

Except nobody has ever had to disprove the idea of god to begin with. It's not something that needs to be disproved, because there is literally not a scrap of evidence for it. When there's no evidence for something, it's on the people claiming its truth to find such evidence in order to prove the truth of their claims.

Sorry, but when an idea is based on faith, and faith alone, nobody has to disprove anything. Sure, plenty of atheists are sad or angry about religion, but that has nothing to do with a need to disprove god's existence. The need to do so simply doesn't exist. It is a logical contradiction.

I don't suppose you've ever seen a debate between a person of faith vs a person that doesn't have faith?

My impression--and I may be off base here--is that the subset of atheist that you see on r/atheism, the stereotypical angry atheist who yells at religious people and talks about magical sky fairies and whatnot, that these are the people who grew up in strongly religious families, who were indoctrinated into some religion or another, and thus when they finally came to the conclusion that their religion wasn't true, they got angry. Not angry at God, but angry at their family, their friends, their church.

So yes, of course there are emotional atheists. But I think you're incorrect about where their emotion is directed.

I don't frequent 4chan and it's slightly insulting for you to think that I would base my impressions on a particular worldview would come from a message board.

everyone knows the internet isn't real life

believe it or not, I've actually encountered this particular subset in real life.

 

[Jackpot]

It's not a balancing act. "1 life saved cancels out 1 murder". There are things that are unforgivable and no amount of duck-billed platypuses will make up for it.

It's like if your most revered historical figure once tortured a random person on a whim. Doesn't matter what deeds they did. That atrocity tarnishes them forever.

 

[poppabk]

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

Even if presume that animals lack this, if having free is so important why will it be taken away from us when we get to heaven?

 

[karasu]

The problem is when there is an all powerful and benevolent god.

Ok, but if you're talking about a biblical god it kind of explains why shit is the way it is. Paradise failed and humans were cursed.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

No, Christianity is rooted in the belief that God is more powerful than anything else.

Well, yes and no. Christianity in its current inception, yes. But the abrahemic religions stem from the Canaanite polytheistic (or in the early case of what would become Judaism monolatric) religions, in which Yahweh was the war god. I think Baal may have been the most powerful. But I'll be honest and say I don't know a lot about the early religions so I may be wrong.

 

[King_Moc]

If everything was a perfect happy paradise, then what would be the point of life? There would be nothing to strive for. Nothing to make us want to better ourselves. Nothing that would make each joyful moment that much more meaningful.

Through suffering, and through loss we learn to appreciate the good things in life that much more. If the world was just a hippys dream come true, why would we even need to exist in the first place? How would we learn to thank God for the things in life that do make us happy amidst all the shit? All we would know is everything is perfect. In fact there would probably be no death because 'oh a loving God would never make us die'. So now we are all just perfect immortal beings living in paradise without any real purpose to our existence other than just being there to pleasure ourselves and somehow never getting bored of not having obstacles to overcome.

But hey, I'm probably way off base here. I'm sure Stephen Fry and other atheists have it all truly figured out and can see the unfolding of the cosmos in its true form unlike the rest of us. They truly are the all knowing ones, which I guess makes them Gods in a way. Imagine that.

There isn't one. Well, you can pass your genes on, but human knowledge has got to the point that we know it's ultimately a fruitless endeavor. A lot of people are just too self important to believe that their life really does mean nothing though.

 

[MattyG]

I never understood the need for worship. At least with the many chinese deities that I'm familiar with, the general understanding that I have is that prayers and offerings are fairly much an exchange or sorts. People pray to the god of prosperity because they want more mone, to the goddess of fertility if they want children and to the goddess of the sea if they want more fish. Worship as an exchange and not as a ticket into heaven or hell.

It's a very strange and egotistical facet of the Christian God (though I'm sure other religions have similar beliefs about worship) that I've always found incredibly strange. And the funniest thing is that, at least the church I grew up in, believed that heaven is one eternal worship session. I hated sitting through 10 minutes of that when I did believe. You're telling me that if I kept up with your doctrine and belief systems, I'd be rewarded with an eternity of that? No thanks.

 

[Lautaro]

If everything was a perfect happy paradise, then what would be the point of life? There would be nothing to strive for. Nothing to make us want to better ourselves. Nothing that would make each joyful moment that much more meaningful.

Through suffering, and through loss we learn to appreciate the good thing in life that much more. If the world was just a hippys dream come true, why would we even need to exist in the first place? How would we learn to thank God for the things in life that do make us happy amidst all the shit? All we would know is everything is perfect. In fact there would probably be no death because 'oh a loving God would never make us die'. So now we are all just perfect immortal beings living in paradise without any real purpose to our existence other than just being there to pleasure ourselves and somehow never getting bored of not having obstacles to overcome.

That sounds like the justification of a beaten wife or a hostage with stockholm syndrome, "he hits me because he loves me". Why not make us perfect from the beginning then?

All these justifications lead to mental gimnastics that are worse and worse when accepting that God is made up answers so many questions.

But hey, I'm probably way off base here. I'm sure Stephen Fry and other atheists have it all truly figure out and can see the unfolding of the cosmos in its true form unlike the rest of us. They truly are the all knowing ones, which I guess makes them Gods in a way. Pretty funny.

Pfff, what a pathetic attempt, try again. He was asked a hypothetical question and he answered, period. The atheist are not the ones claiming to speak for a god or pretending to know the purpose of life, that arrogance only belongs to theists.

 

[cgcg]

If everything was a perfect happy paradise, then what would be the point of life? There would be nothing to strive for. Nothing to make us want to better ourselves. Nothing that would make each joyful moment that much more meaningful.

Through suffering, and through loss we learn to appreciate the good things in life that much more. If the world was just a hippys dream come true, why would we even need to exist in the first place? How would we learn to thank God for the things in life that do make us happy amidst all the shit? All we would know is everything is perfect. In fact there would probably be no death because 'oh a loving God would never make us die'. So now we are all just perfect immortal beings living in paradise without any real purpose to our existence other than just being there to pleasure ourselves and somehow never getting bored of not having obstacles to overcome.

But hey, I'm probably way off base here. I'm sure Stephen Fry and other atheists have it all truly figured out and can see the unfolding of the cosmos in its true form unlike the rest of us. They truly are the all knowing ones, which I guess makes them Gods in a way. Imagine that.

So you are saying the almighty God who is living in a perfect paradise has no point for his life, nothing to strive for, nothing to better himself. Basically no purpose for his existence. Got ya.

 

[Bizazedo]

Through suffering, and through loss we learn to appreciate the good things in life that much more. If the world was just a hippys dream come true, why would we even need to exist in the first place? How would we learn to thank God for the things in life that do make us happy amidst all the shit? All we would know is everything is perfect. In fact there would probably be no death because 'oh a loving God would never make us die'. So now we are all just perfect immortal beings living in paradise without any real purpose to our existence other than just being there to pleasure ourselves and somehow never getting bored of not having obstacles to overcome.

But hey, I'm probably way off base here. I'm sure Stephen Fry and other atheists have it all truly figured out and can see the unfolding of the cosmos in its true form unlike the rest of us. They truly are the all knowing ones, which I guess makes them Gods in a way. Imagine that.

And that brings us back, again, to the situations like the babies dying before they're even days old, some from horrific natural causes.

Of the tsunamis that devastate coastlines. Earthquakes which shatter towns and villages. Tornadoes that destroy trailer parks by the dozen. All of those people as "lessons" is what you're saying.

Or that my friends who had diseases that bound them to chairs or beds until they died. They were born, suffered, and wasted away to nothing.

With all of that allowed to happen.....what Fry is saying (to keep it on topic), is that with all of that....why should we respect the person that allows it to happen?

 

[PhantomHound]

Sounds like every living thing to me, unless you got more animal science in the bible...

God created man as a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions

Animals are not rational beings

 

[riskVSreward]

It's a very strange and egotistical facet of the Christian God that I've always found incredibly strange. And the funniest thing is that, at least the church I grew up in, believed that heaven is one eternal worship session. I hated sitting through 10 minutes of that when I did believe. You're telling me that if I kept up with your doctrine and belief systems, I'd be rewarded with an eternity of that? No thanks.

You guys ever think Christians are lying about hell and there's actually video games and weed down there?

 

[TimeEffect]

My impression--and I may be off base here--is that the subset of atheist that you see on r/atheism, the stereotypical angry atheist who yells at religious people and talks about magical sky fairies and whatnot, that these are the people who grew up in strongly religious families, who were indoctrinated into some religion or another, and thus when they finally came to the conclusion that their religion wasn't true, they got angry. Not angry at God, but angry at their family, their friends, their church.

So yes, of course there are emotional atheists. But I think you're incorrect about where their emotion is directed.

It honestly feels like this sort of thinking comes from the "God's Not Dead" line of reasoning.

"Chill out atheists, why are you so angry with God, you are just a teenager who doesn't understand apologetics". It's a mentality that is not uncommon, and one that tries to undermine and misrepresent these kinds of atheists as inherently flawed and malicious in their skepticism and positions

 

[karasu]

There isn't one. Well, you can pass your genes on, but human knowledge has got to the point that we know it's ultimately a fruitless endeavor. A lot of people are just too self important to believe that their life really does mean nothing though.

I hate this type of thinking. Why do we need a god for our lives to have meaning?

 

[collige]

Ok, but if you're talking about a biblical god it kind of explains why shit is the way it is. Paradise failed and humans were cursed.

Well, I would assume we're talking about the metaphorical/reconciliatory interpretation of Christianity that doesn't deny the Big Bang or Evolution that most Christians adhere to today.

If you're operating under the assumption that the Garden of Eden story is a literal historical event that directly led to the physical world that we live in then sure that works, but that's fucking wrong and that God would still be an asshole.

 

[HappyBivouac]

Ok, but if you're talking about a biblical god it kind of explains why shit is the way it is. Paradise failed and humans were cursed.

So an omnipotent, omnibenevolent god could have, and would have (y'know, benevolence and all) undid that curse.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

God created man as a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions

Animals are not rational beings

What standards for rationality are you using here?

 

[mantidor]

And the next step is to provide proof--in the face of overwhelming evidence against such a claim--that dogs, cats, mice, and monkeys do not possess such a power.

Discussion about free will in this manner is a dead end. We are basically trying to apply scientific thought to what is a philosophical concept. You cannot prove (or disprove) animals have or don't have free will, it's like trying to prove they have a soul.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

God created man as a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions

Animals are not rational beings

Being rational has nothing to do with 'free will'.

 

[riskVSreward]

God created man as a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions

Animals are not rational beings

Your second sentence doesn't follow the first. Earlier you defined free will and made no mention of rationality.

Also, until you validate the bible, I couldn't care less.

 

[ibyea]

God created man as a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions

Animals are not rational beings

Humans are rational? That could not be further from the truth.

 

[reckless]

Ok, but if you're talking about a biblical god it kind of explains why shit is the way it is. Paradise failed and humans were cursed.

Well its a pretty bad explanation and makes god look like a dick.

North Korea is/was into the punishing generations of a family for one person's breaking of the law and they get called monsters for only doing it for 3 generations. God does it for infinite generations and gets called great.

 

[Deleted member 20920]

It's a very strange and egotistical facet of the Christian God that I've always found incredibly strange. And the funniest thing is that, at least the church I grew up in, believed that heaven is one eternal worship session. I hated sitting through 10 minutes of that when I did believe. You're telling me that if I kept up with your doctrine and belief systems, I'd be rewarded with an eternity of that? No thanks.

That's sounds like a horrible way to live lol... I mean I enjoyed the singing (and most singing in general) in the occasional mass I had in my catholic secondary school but an eternity of me sitting there singing "praise be to god" in as many different songs as possible sounds like great material for a list of "Top 10 worst possible scenarios of what afterlife is".

 

[MattyG]

You guys ever think Christians are lying about hell and there's actually video games and weed down there?

Abaolutely. They're just trying to keep it all for themselves. They probably draw pentagrams while jerking off and listening to Slayer (all sins, amirite?) on their deathbed, "woohoo, Lord Satan, get read to pass the weed, here I come!"

 

[Zen_Arcade]

God created man as a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions

Animals are not rational beings

Yes they are. That's why they do things like run away from natural disasters. They know what is coming and are rational enough to move away from it.

 

[super-heated plasma]

There isn't one. Well, you can pass your genes on, but human knowledge has got to the point that we know it's ultimately a fruitless endeavor. A lot of people are just too self important to believe that their life really does mean nothing though.

But thats not true. Your life does mean something. It means alot to the people who love you. It means you have a reason to get up in the morning and do something than just layabout like pile of gelatinous matter that has no affect on the world around it for better or worse.

 

[Mecha]

There are no such thing as happiness, happiness is just a temporary relief from pain. You are not happy because you are healthy, you are happy because someone else is sick, and you are not.

If God does exist, and want to give us "happiness". All the pains and sufferings are mandatory. May be it is determined by dice roll? Karma? Who knows.

I believe that our true Self is happy, but this is clouded by desires, fears, and other various influences. We keep reaching for something new to feel complete (I can die happy if I get this new car), but our Self is already complete, we don't need a new car (or video game, or phone, or) to experience happiness. The cycle of desiring, thinking about those desires (not experiencing the present), possibly obtaining those desires, and then experiencing the brief feeling of being satisfied/whole is counterproductive.

As for pain, I don't have much to say about it. Many people experience happiness and personal growth while in pain. Some people meditate in pain as a learning opportunity, it's all how you view it.

Spoiler

Don't read this as me saying people don't need food or shelter to be happy, they often do. When I speak of desires I speak of longing for something that isn't necessary for our every day survival.

 

[Cyan]

I don't frequent 4chan and it's slightly insulting for you to think that I would base my impressions on a particular worldview would come from a message board.

When I say "the subset of atheist you see on r/atheism" (which is a subreddit, not a 4chan board), I'm referring to the archetype. The "angry atheist" who is rude and mocking about religion at every opportunity.

 

[killamajig]

You guys ever think Christians are lying about hell and there's actually video games and weed down there?

Who do I gotta pray to for that?

 

[PhantomHound]

Your second sentence doesn't follow the first. Earlier you defined free will and made no mention of rationality.

Also, until you validate the bible, I couldn't care less.

I can confirm the bible is an ancient religious text that explains all of these things brought up by fry's arguments. Have you read the bible?

 

[Plywood]

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" -Epicurus

etc, etc

fedora

m'lady

jenga

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Where in that interview did Fry blame all bad things on God?

Honestly though, this can just as easily be pushed into the other thread.

Fry didn't "blame" any god, because like the reasonable person he is, he sees that there is no god controlling things or working in mysterious ways. In the hypothetical situation that there is some kind of afterlife and that he were to encounter some kind of god in that realm, he just said that he would berate that god for allowing for such terrible things to happen.

Even if all of the good in the world could be attributed to a single entity known as God, then that still wouldn't excuse it in the slightest from all of the atrocities that are allowed to happen. This is under the assumption that said being is all knowing and all powerful.

When I say "the subset of atheist you see on r/atheism" (which is a subreddit, not a 4chan board), I'm referring to the archetype. The "angry atheist" who is rude and mocking about religion at every opportunity.

While going out of one's way to start trouble with people is typically never a good idea, what's wrong with mocking that which deserves to be mocked? You don't see many people on the Internet shedding tears when Scientology, Mormonism, or the variety of Buddhist cults out there are given the bashing they deserve.