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[MattyG]

If this God is truly all powerful, all knowing, and benevolent, then why wouldn't it see to everyone's troubles and create a paradise for all? What is the point of having suffering? If it takes no effort on this God's behalf to make everyone happy, then to not do so is just plain cruelty.

Because one guy and his wife fucked up and didn't obey the great and powerful being that is Yahweh, and now all their descendants will pay for it by suffering for all their lives.

If that ain't benevolent enough, man, I don't know what is.

 

[riskVSreward]

Fry asks why bad thing happen to good people and why a god would do that? When in the Bible it explains why bad things happen to good people. To which people in this thread are saying, no god exists because he would never allow the world to have such evil, but religious people would just point to the bible... because it explains that God is aware of suffering and continues to let it happen.

Dude, how do dogs lack free will. Where in the bible does it address a dogs lack of free will. You just keep jumping around the arguments here, don't you realize this?

 

[RM8]

But it does. You can choose not to believe in it, but don't say things aren't in there when they clearly are.

If the book says "God allows bone cancer because ___________", it doesn't mean Stephen Fry (or anyone) can't still find it unacceptable and question it.

 

[Count Dookkake]

so maybe you haven't seen it... have a link:

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/feb/01/stephen-fry-god-evil-maniac-irish-tv

I think there was a thread on this but I want to speak to one specific moment in this interview that has piqued my curiousity. My atheist friends usually get riled up when I say something slightly contrary to their stance so I'm looking to you guys to have a decent conversation about this.

Somewhere in the middle of this interview Mr.Fry says something to the effect of "sure there are good things that happen also".

I hear pretty often from my atheist friends something along the lines of what was said in the interview "even if god exists I wouldn't want to believe because all of these shitty things happen"

which in my mind begs the question: what about all the inexplicable good things that happen in life?

if you are going to blame god for all the atrocities in life, isn't it a bit unfair to not blame god for all the good things in life as well?

I'm not trying to pick fights here or anything like that. I try to derive wisdom from all points of view so maybe atheistGAF can help explain the bolded to me.

I am going to rape you, but I'll be sure to hide some money in your sofa.

I'm pretty cool like that.

 

[PhantomHound]

Did you listen to what Fry said? He wasn't really asking "why?" He was saying that he would berate this supposedly all powerful, all knowing, and so-called benevolent God for being such a terribly fiend and tyrant who supposedly takes a great deal of glee in the suffering of his subjects.

Yes, but that's not what the people in this thread are arguing. They are arguing that god does not exist and how could god let this suffering go on.

The people in this thread have moved the argument to, "Believing in God is dumb"

 

[Deleted member 17706]

But it does. You can choose not to believe in it, but don't say things aren't in there when they clearly are.

It's not about belief. It may offer explanations for certain things, but many of those explanations fly in the face of what we know to be true. Offering a completely baseless explanation is worse than offering no explanation at all.

Yes, but that's not what the people in this thread are arguing. They are arguing that god does not exist and how could god let this suffering go on.

The people in this thread have moved the argument to, "Believing in God is dumb"

I'm seeing a lot of different discussions/arguments in this thread, honestly. Seems like some good ol' cherry picking to me.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

The people in this thread have moved the argument to, "Believing in God is dumb"

They have, really?

 

[riskVSreward]

Yes, but that's not what the people in this thread are arguing. They are arguing that god does not exist and how could god let this suffering go on.

The people in this thread have moved the argument to, "Believing in God is dumb"

Well, it is an unfalsifiable hypothesis...

 

[PhantomHound]

Dude, how do dogs lack free will. Where in the bible does it address a dogs lack of free will. You just keep jumping around the arguments here, don't you realize this?

Dogs do not posses the human qualities of rationalization. Go ahead tell me about all the debates dogs are having on morality and ethics. Name me all great scientific achievements that the dogs have created.

If you're saying dogs are on the same rationality level as humans... i don't think science or the bible agree with that.

 

[FloatOn]

Ok I want you to read this again and read it slow.

uh huh.. so basically they are mad at everything that they know OF god but somehow they are not actually mad at god.

got it.

 

[RM8]

Go ahead tell me about all the debates dogs are having on morality and ethics. Name me all great scientific achievements that the dogs have created.

So most people aren't rational, then? :x

 

[Deleted member 17706]

If you're saying dogs are on the same rationality level as humans... i don't think science or the bible agree with that.

You can see the goal posts being moved in real time with this one!

 

[PhantomHound]

They have, really?

Yes, I've defended against it for the bloody last parts of the thread. When I explain the bible it ultimately came to, "Do you believe in this flying space magic man, hahaha"

And that is very rude.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I believe that falls under instinct.

You can have irrational instincts. It's some peoples instinct to run into a tornado to video tape it. It's a completely irrational instinct to have considering it highly raises your chances of dying, but it's still the instinct of some people to run into danger instead of running away from it.

Alternatively, a mother running into a burning building is spurred on by maternal instinct, but you're not going to convince many people that running into a building that's on fire is a rational thing to do.

 

[Lautaro]

But it does. You can choose not to believe in it, but don't say things aren't in there when they clearly are.

The book has many examples saying that God is good and loves us. Obviously someone is lying because the same book gives examples of God not being good and not loving us (at least not all of us).

That contradiction is the root of this debate.

 

[collige]

Yes, but that's not what the people in this thread are arguing. They are arguing that god does not exist and how could god let this suffering go on.

No, people in this thread are arguing that a very specific characterization of God (omniscient, omnibenevolent, onmipowerful) doesn't exist. See the SMBC comic posted earlier.

 

[Extra Sauce]

God made earth so people could have free will and dictate their own choices he plays no role in the events of the earth.

What if aliens decide to annihilate us with their superior technology? Would God step in then in order to protect Humanity's free will? Also did God create those aliens?

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Dogs do not posses the human qualities of rationalization. Go ahead tell me about all the debates dogs are having on morality and ethics. Name me all great scientific achievements that the dogs have created.

If you're saying dogs are on the same rationality level as humans... i don't think science or the bible agree with that.

Does a mentally ill individual have free will? How about someone with an exceptionally low IQ? Do exceptionally smart chimpanzees have free will? What level of rationality does someone need to have to possess free will?

 

[HappyBivouac]

Cyan didn't say "no one thinks this way" but several others did with regards to those atheists that get angry at god for certain bad things that exist. You're attempt at an insult is noted and kind of sad tbh... kind of lame that most conversations with atheists have tended to go this way.

I have no interest in insulting you or making any such conversation personal on that level. It's merely an observation that you've repeatedly twisted people's words and claims in this thread, whether intentionally or mistakenly. Your initial supposition that people are claiming "god allows evil THEREFORE I do not believe in him" when in fact, nobody claimed so, is an indication of this. I point this out in the interest of achieving constructive discussion. Nothing more.

 

[FloatOn]

All sorts of people exist, but there are actually educated atheists who base their beliefs on evidence and therefore lack a belief in gods.

I have said as much myself.

I totally understand that there are atheists that have come to their own conclusions about god and lack thereof from their own education and understanding of the world. This is totally respectable.

 

[riskVSreward]

Dogs do not posses the human qualities of rationalization. Go ahead tell me about all the debates dogs are having on morality and ethics. Name me all great scientific achievements that the dogs have created.

If you're saying dogs are on the same rationality level as humans... i don't think science or the bible agree with that.

What does rationality have to do with free will. IT DOESN'T EVEN FIT YOUR OWN DEFINITION OF FREE WILL!

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yes, I've defended against it for the bloody last parts of the thread. When I explain the bible it ultimately came to, "Do you believe in this flying space magic man, hahaha"

And that is very rude.

Is it really that rude? Do you give equal heed to any bit of nonsense that someone might spew, even if you know it to not be true?

 

[Cyan]

so - it's gone from "no one thinks this way" to there being enough atheists to have an angry archetype? interesting.

I kind of thought that I didn't imagine a bunch of pissed off atheists blaming god for shit.

...

I can't help but feel that you're deliberately misinterpreting my posts to suit your argument.

Here's what I've said so far in the thread:
-the "atheist who professes disbelief because he secretly hates God" is a nonsense strawman put forward by religious folks who are probably projecting.
-the problem of evil is a problem not because a God who allows evil is a jerk but because it is a contradiction with the way God is portrayed in most religions as all-powerful, all-knowing, and benevolent.
-"angry atheists"--that is, atheists who are rude to religious people, who are jerks about their disbelief--definitely exist. My theory is that they are angry not because they secretly believe in God, as you have claimed, but because they were raised to be religious and are angry that they were lied to. They are not "angry at God," they are angry at their family, friends, and church.

 

[Plywood]

If God can prevent evil. he could and does but when there are hungry people dying and God intervenes directly with sudden removal of all hunger for the hungry then the next time it happens, people wont fight for the rights of others, they will wait for God. then if disease strikes, no one will want to study medicine and cure diseases, they will wait for God to do it. evolution of man's ideas and knowledge will come to a standstill. Who caused the Holocaust? and who ultimately prevented it. How did smallpox spread? and who invented a vaccine for it? It is the free will of man who is moving in life between life and death and finds ways to help other through FREE WILL that Evil can occur due to free will and hunger can be removed with free will, be it evil in the form of disease or evil in the form of human inaction/action

Reminds me of this bit from Futurama.

God Entity: Bender, being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you. And if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch, like a safecracker or a pickpocket.

Bender: Or a guy who burns down a bar for the insurance money.

God Entity: Yes, if you make it look like an electrical thing. When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

 

[PhantomHound]

Is it really that rude? Do you give equal heed to any bit of nonsense that someone might spew, even if you know it to not be true?

Yes, i let people believe in their own origins of creation even if I may disagree with them.

 

[RM8]

Yes, i let people believe in their own origins of creation even if I may disagree with them.

...and who is not doing this in here?

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Yes, I've defended against it for the bloody last parts of the thread. When I explain the bible it ultimately came to, "Do you believe in this flying space magic man, hahaha"

And that is very rude.

How is it rude to attempt to draw a comparison between two like propositions?

Oh, because you believe one and not the other...I see.

Yes, i let people believe in their own origins of creation even if I may disagree with them.

Who is stopping you from believing what you want?

 

[PhantomHound]

What if aliens decide to annihilate us with their superior technology? Would God step in then in order to protect Humanity's free will? Also did God create those aliens?

Can you prove aliens?

 

[riskVSreward]

Can you prove aliens?

Can you define free will again?

 

[karasu]

Cosmically, each and every human life is meaningless. In the grandness of space and time, we are a blip. Completely incapable of changing a modicum of the direction of the Universe at large. Eventually, every thing that has ever lived will grow old, die, and be forgotten. It is meaningless.

That is such a strange barometer for meaning.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yes, i let people believe in their own origins of creation even if I may disagree with them.

Telling someone that what they choose to believe in is a bunch of nonsense (based on all of the evidence we have available, of course) is very different from prohibiting them from believing in it, or punishing them for expressing their beliefs.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Can you prove aliens?

Nope. See how easy that is?

Do you have a difficulty in understanding/entertaining an idea that you do not actually believe in? We have the ability to discuss ideas and concepts without actually believing they exist. What is a thought experiment for 1000, Alex.

 

[Stereogatari]

If he's so strong why doesn't he just come down and say hi. Like a few years ago I was pretty beat up over a girl that broke off contact with me without saying anything, why didn't God come down and reassure me, maybe bring along some free stuff to cheer me up.

Instead he just stays up there or wherever not coming down to help. What kind of God is that?

 

[riskVSreward]

If he's so strong why doesn't he just come down and say hi. Like a few years ago I was pretty beat up over a girl that broke off contact with me without saying anything, why didn't God come down and reassure me, maybe bring along some free stuff to cheer me up.

Instead he just stays up there or wherever not coming down to help. What kind of God is that?

Nah, sounds like he loves you dude.

 

[Lautaro]

If he's so strong why doesn't he just come down and say hi. Like a few years ago I was pretty beat up over a girl that broke off contact with me without saying anything, why didn't God come down and reassure me, maybe bring along some free stuff to cheer me up.

Instead he just stays up there or wherever not coming down to help. What kind of God is that?

God pls respond...

 

[King_Moc]

Dogs do not posses the human qualities of rationalization. Go ahead tell me about all the debates dogs are having on morality and ethics. Name me all great scientific achievements that the dogs have created.

If you're saying dogs are on the same rationality level as humans... i don't think science or the bible agree with that.

So unless dogs (other than Laika, of course) fly into space or something then they don't have freewill? Are you for real?

 

[PhantomHound]

So unless dogs (other than Laika, of course) fly into space or something then they don't have freewill? Are you for real?

Does any animal share the same mental capacity as a human? Can you say that any animal comes close to our complexity?

 

[Stereogatari]

Nah, sounds like he loves you dude.

Well he made her in the first place, and then made the events which led to our meeting.

He sure is a strange fellow.

 

[riskVSreward]

So unless dogs (other than Laika, of course) fly into space or something then they don't have freewill? Are you for real?

I'm thinking he's a troll, you can go back a page or two to read his definition of free will and it fits all living things equally.

 

[kiunchbb]

There's only one defining characteristic of an atheist, they lack a belief in gods.

You mean atheist believe there are no god or any higher being. "Lack of belief in god" can mean there is a god, but just not believe in it. I think most atheist here argues that God doesn't exist.

I am curious, do atheists think human is the most powerful being, since they don't believe in existent of god or any higher being. What if there are alien powerful enough to be consider a god in our point of view?

 

[Necromanti]

To which people in this thread are saying, no god exists because he would never allow the world to have such evil, but religious people would just point to the bible... because it explains that God is aware of suffering and continues to let it happen.

Maybe that's what Fry was getting at with his argument. It was less a criticism against a god he doesn't believe in, but rather one aimed at the followers who would be able to respect such a being regardless of its actions (or lack thereof). Perhaps that's where part of the "angry atheist" trope comes from as well; they are people angry with believers who they feel justify atrocities with, from their perspective, a very shaky foundation of reasoning.

Can you say that any animal comes close to our complexity?

"Complexity" is subjective, relative, and isn't limited to just cognition.

 

[ibyea]

Does any animal share the same mental capacity as a human? Can you say that any animal comes close to our complexity?

Which again is irrelevant to the question of whether they have "free will" or not.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Does any animal share the same mental capacity as a human? Can you say that any animal comes close to our complexity?

I don't know. How does mental capacity have anything to do with 'free will'.

Why do you keep ignoring substantial criticism?

Do mentally ill, individuals with deformed brains, lower IQ's, etc. have the same mental capacity as other humans? Do they all have free will? Does a chimpanzee with a substantially higher IQ and mental capacity have free will when compared to the aforementioned examples?

 

[King_Moc]

Does any animal share the same mental capacity as a human? Can you say that any animal comes close to our complexity?

No, but it's also completely irrelevant to the concept of freewill. Not all humans are of the same intelligence. Do I have no freewill because i'm not as intelligent as Stephen Hawking?

 

[FloatOn]

...

I can't help but feel that you're deliberately misinterpreting my posts to suit your argument.

Here's what I've said so far in the thread:
-the "atheist who professes disbelief because he secretly hates God" is a nonsense strawman put forward by religious folks who are probably projecting.
-the problem of evil is a problem not because a God who allows evil is a jerk but because it is a contradiction with the way God is portrayed in most religions as all-powerful, all-knowing, and benevolent.
-"angry atheists"--that is, atheists who are rude to religious people, who are jerks about their disbelief--definitely exist. My theory is that they are angry not because they secretly believe in God, as you have claimed, but because they were raised to be religious and are angry that they were lied to. They are not "angry at God," they are angry at their family, friends, and church.

yes, I get that. From what I've encountered those things serve as the catalyst for the angry atheist to build their case against the idea of a god/gods.

if the idea of god was such a nonpoint it would seem to me the stances from these angry atheists would be far less "god doesn't exist because A), B) or C) reason" and instead be "of course god doesn't exist, my life is about _____ instead"

I suspect to some degree Stephen Fry is very upset about the idea of god otherwise he wouldn't be so impassioned about all the atrocities this creator perpetrated against humanity.

 

[riskVSreward]

Does any animal share the same mental capacity as a human? Can you say that any animal comes close to our complexity?

WHAT DOES FREE WILL HAVE TO DO WITH COMPLEXITY?

Not only do you move the goal posts off the field, but you try to kick a soccer ball through a basketball hoop. Your theology is thoroughly unimpressive and when brought to this level of discussion hinges on you being able to run from your previous statements.

 

[PhantomHound]

I'm thinking he's a troll, you can go back a page or two to read his definition of free will and it fits all living things equally.

I am not a troll.

I gave the definition of free will based on our dictionary. What it means to me, would be a little different, and some people would argue that the complete notion of free will is a complete fabrication.

 

[Ingueferroque]

I cant comprehend being able to rationalize the existence of a god like being.

Unless you are afraid of the cold, finality of death. I think people are driven to faith mostly for selfish/self preserving reasons. Which is fine.. I dont want to sound judgemental.

I just do not understand how I could get away in making myself believe.

Life can have meaning without there being a higher power.

 

[Lautaro]

You mean atheist believe there are no god or any higher being. "Lack of belief in god" can mean there is a god, but just not believe in it. I think most atheist here argues that God doesn't exist.

I am curious, do atheists think human is the most powerful being, since they don't believe in existent of god or any higher being. What if there are alien powerful enough to be consider a god in our point of view?

I don't have the graphic, let me remember:

Atheist agnostic don't believe that gods exist but don't claim to know for sure they don't exist.

Atheist gnostic don't believe in gods and claims to know they don't exist.

And well I don't speak for all atheists (we don't have a dogma or authority) but if there are powerful aliens out there I wouldn't consider them gods because a god is a supernatural concept born from human ignorance and fear that in my opinion can't exist, these super

Spoiler

saiyan

aliens would just be that: powerful.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

I am not a troll.

I gave the definition of free will based on our dictionary. What it means to me, would be a little different, and some people would argue that the complete notion of free will is a complete fabrication.

You're displaying trollish behavior because you are refusing to engage in an actual discussion. You are straight up ignoring significant counterpoints. That is trollish behavior based on our dictionary.