Your Excellency
Banned
daxter01 said:
Pretty sure this argument has been resolutely destroyed, but thanks for reminding us.
-
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After playing Portal 2, Ico seems really rather terrible.
- Thread starter Your Excellency
- Start date
Pretty sure this argument has been resolutely destroyed, but thanks for reminding us.
staticneuron
Member
Your Excellency said:
No they aren't.
stu clears up a bit for you here
StuBurns said:
First of all comparing the two is broken as they obviously have different budgets and team ico is 30 people strong. How many people worked on portal 2? That does away with all the "little" things because they take time and resources, which team ico probably didn't have.
Another thing, ico was a PS2 game. Portal 2 is a current gen game. This should explain so much it isn't even funny.
Portal needs to explain about its environment, because HL needs to explain, both games take place on earth in an alternate future so questions obviously need to be asked about how the events and locals came to be. The world in ICO (which is presumably the same one in SoTC and the upcoming TLG) is an entirely "fictional" world. The do their job by putting you in the shoes of ico and it is a journey to figure out what the deal is in the game. Not knowing is apart of putting you in the shoes of ico. That is their way of immersing the player as they did something similar in SotC and most likely will do in their next game.
These games have nothing really to do with each other because ICO is a fantasy setting and considered an third person action adventure game and Portal 2 is a Sci Fi first person puzzle-platformer.
EDIT: To clarify ico has puzzles but it is simple because it is primarily an AA game not a puzzle game. That is like saying because you can level up in Gears3 that gears is an RPG. Then follow that up by making a thread about how Fallout 3 makes Gears 3 look terrible because Fallout handles the RPG elements better.
Ico is only over called a "puzzle platformer" for lack of ability to find a better classification. Difficult puzzle solving, or really any puzzle solving was never really the focus of the experience. All those objects which are just there that you interactive with are truly just that, set pieces for you to manipulate in order to enhance the game's feeling of an interactive world, not much different from the Yorda hand holding mechanic.
Right after playing Portal 2, you were probably looking for a very mechanical puzzle game with clearly defined rules. Play something more like Catherine. If you want to better appreciate a game like Ico, prepare by playing Myst.
Right after playing Portal 2, you were probably looking for a very mechanical puzzle game with clearly defined rules. Play something more like Catherine. If you want to better appreciate a game like Ico, prepare by playing Myst.
Your Excellency
Banned
MikeTyson said:
I'd agree with this. And now that the gaming landscape has changed since Portal 2, people are slowly coming to realise it and they're not afraid to say it.
Your Excellency
Banned
StuBurns said:
Then explain to me why it is that you think Ico is a better game than Portal 2. Not why you prefer it, but why you think it is an objectively better game. Give some reasoning, Stuburns.
To Far Away Times
Member
On top of that, Ico started out as a PS1 game, and was brought over to the PS2 before the big games hit like Metal Gear Solid 2 and Final Fantasy X.staticneuron said:
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
Wow. Just, Wow.
immortal-joe
Member
Portal 2 got boring for me - it reached a point after you recover the "potato" where I was going "come on please let this end", and then I was bombarded with puzzle after puzzle after puzzle.
Voice acting and story were top notch no doubt, but game needed some cutting.
Voice acting and story were top notch no doubt, but game needed some cutting.
theDeeDubs
Member
StuBurns said:
It's a great opinion though. Portal 2, while good, is overrated.
Just to add: After playing Dark Souls, Portal 2 seems really rather terrible.
walking fiend
Member
Darkkn said:
After playing Portal 2, Metroid Prime seems really rather terrible.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
So I've recently played Battlefield 3 beta on PC, and it goes without saying that it's a complete masterpiece, and pretty much one of the greatest works of man since Bernini's The Rape of Proserpina. Now I've been playing DOOM (in iPhone), which I've never played before..
And let me say this: having bathed in the glory of Battlefield 3, DOOM's flaws are major:
1. Why do all these intricate weapons even exist?
What Battlefield 3 did is explain why all the gadgets exist in their universe. It's because they were military weapons, designed to allow humans to battle out the enemies and to do things they couldn't before. We don't know EVERYTHING about the intentions behind the weapon caliber, but we know enough for it to make sense. The rest of the attachments are open enough to allow us to find out little details about it as we rank along.
In Doom, we're to presume that SOMEBODY spent loads of money and time pointlessly building this fortress full of scattered weapons. The game always feels completely and utterly artificial as a result.
2. There is no genuine 'movement' in Doom.
This is how you move in Doom: look for a key that you can do something with: i.e. W. Then press that key in the nearby finger. It helps because there is only one forward button to press it in, so essentially you can't get it wrong. One button, one keyboard. It's about as linear as movement gets, and so much of the game is like this.
If you see a stair, you climb up it, which takes you to a platform. At this point, there's no lateral thinking involved to get to the next platform, it's simply a case of pulling a lever/climbing a foothold. There's never a choice between a lever and a foothold, as the game is so simplistic and linear that it's practically on rails, and it pretty much directs you where to go itself.
In comparison, with Battlefield 3 you have to use your MOUSE to look around on how to shoot the jet. It's not a case of 'I need to push this W-key, oh obviously I do it with the keyboard that is sitting 2 inches away', it's a case of 'HOW do I keep these four I/O devices pushed down when there is only one screen, and even that button is pressed every time I try to bring it across the hands, and to make it worse I have to do it whilst avoiding the stinger missle. But I have at my disposal a joystick and some pedals which allows me to turn regular dogfight into HNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGG. Essentially, you can't just sleepwalk through Battlefield 3. You have to use the ironsight. Not sleepwalk through the jungle.
3. When you get stuck in Battlefield 3, it's your own stupid fault playing a beta. When you get stuck in DOOM, it's the iPhone's shitty controls' fault.
Here's an example: there is a bit halfway through Operation Metro where you have gotten to a low platform in a crater. You need to attack two M-COM Stations on the opposite side of the field to progress. There's no way across. You spend half an hour looking over every inch of that field for the medics/snipers/campers that you forgot to spot. You don't find anyone, so you then you try using your knife to slice everything in the field. Doesn't work. THEN you finally figure out the retarded solution: you were supposed to hold E to plant the M-COM Station, and go under the crater to glitch under the map and take down enemies while you glitch. Now let me begin by saying this is the dumbest most retarded shit I have ever seen in my life. If DICE can fucking magically ban the servers, then why the fuck don't they just fix the crater glitch, leading me straight out of the entire ground? Also, where in the game was I supposed to find out that I'll get banned from beta for joining Caspian Border? This isn't lateral thinking, it's complete making-it-up-as-we-go-along. It's literally as if the level designers couldn't be bothered to think of a solution, so they pulled a "OH IT'S A BETA!". There's a few other examples of this in the game too.
4. All the other little things.
With Battlefield 3, it seems like they thought about EVERYTHING, to make it a perfect game. What no one ever mentions about Battlefield 3 is those amazing battlelog where you try and join the server but do it wrong, and DICE or EA laugh at you for your stupidity. It feels incredibly organic and genuine, and really brings you into the game. It literally feels like they're watching you the whole time. Like when EA says 'Quick Match', and you go the opposite way. In Bad Company 2, DICE would wait until you clicked in the search. In Battlefield 3, DICE's Community Manager made an annoyed comment about how you're ungrateful and need to grow up. The dialogue/AI in this game is just on a whole other level to other computer games. I love it when they say "Be Advised!". Doom is so utterly bland in comparison.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx2hpuuVEd8
Conclusion: Battlefield 3 is so good that it makes other shooters seem really rather terrible.
Question: Will there be another shooter in ten years time which makes Battlefield 3 seem really rather terrible?
Answer: No.
And let me say this: having bathed in the glory of Battlefield 3, DOOM's flaws are major:
1. Why do all these intricate weapons even exist?
What Battlefield 3 did is explain why all the gadgets exist in their universe. It's because they were military weapons, designed to allow humans to battle out the enemies and to do things they couldn't before. We don't know EVERYTHING about the intentions behind the weapon caliber, but we know enough for it to make sense. The rest of the attachments are open enough to allow us to find out little details about it as we rank along.
In Doom, we're to presume that SOMEBODY spent loads of money and time pointlessly building this fortress full of scattered weapons. The game always feels completely and utterly artificial as a result.
2. There is no genuine 'movement' in Doom.
This is how you move in Doom: look for a key that you can do something with: i.e. W. Then press that key in the nearby finger. It helps because there is only one forward button to press it in, so essentially you can't get it wrong. One button, one keyboard. It's about as linear as movement gets, and so much of the game is like this.
If you see a stair, you climb up it, which takes you to a platform. At this point, there's no lateral thinking involved to get to the next platform, it's simply a case of pulling a lever/climbing a foothold. There's never a choice between a lever and a foothold, as the game is so simplistic and linear that it's practically on rails, and it pretty much directs you where to go itself.
In comparison, with Battlefield 3 you have to use your MOUSE to look around on how to shoot the jet. It's not a case of 'I need to push this W-key, oh obviously I do it with the keyboard that is sitting 2 inches away', it's a case of 'HOW do I keep these four I/O devices pushed down when there is only one screen, and even that button is pressed every time I try to bring it across the hands, and to make it worse I have to do it whilst avoiding the stinger missle. But I have at my disposal a joystick and some pedals which allows me to turn regular dogfight into HNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGG. Essentially, you can't just sleepwalk through Battlefield 3. You have to use the ironsight. Not sleepwalk through the jungle.
3. When you get stuck in Battlefield 3, it's your own stupid fault playing a beta. When you get stuck in DOOM, it's the iPhone's shitty controls' fault.
Here's an example: there is a bit halfway through Operation Metro where you have gotten to a low platform in a crater. You need to attack two M-COM Stations on the opposite side of the field to progress. There's no way across. You spend half an hour looking over every inch of that field for the medics/snipers/campers that you forgot to spot. You don't find anyone, so you then you try using your knife to slice everything in the field. Doesn't work. THEN you finally figure out the retarded solution: you were supposed to hold E to plant the M-COM Station, and go under the crater to glitch under the map and take down enemies while you glitch. Now let me begin by saying this is the dumbest most retarded shit I have ever seen in my life. If DICE can fucking magically ban the servers, then why the fuck don't they just fix the crater glitch, leading me straight out of the entire ground? Also, where in the game was I supposed to find out that I'll get banned from beta for joining Caspian Border? This isn't lateral thinking, it's complete making-it-up-as-we-go-along. It's literally as if the level designers couldn't be bothered to think of a solution, so they pulled a "OH IT'S A BETA!". There's a few other examples of this in the game too.
4. All the other little things.
With Battlefield 3, it seems like they thought about EVERYTHING, to make it a perfect game. What no one ever mentions about Battlefield 3 is those amazing battlelog where you try and join the server but do it wrong, and DICE or EA laugh at you for your stupidity. It feels incredibly organic and genuine, and really brings you into the game. It literally feels like they're watching you the whole time. Like when EA says 'Quick Match', and you go the opposite way. In Bad Company 2, DICE would wait until you clicked in the search. In Battlefield 3, DICE's Community Manager made an annoyed comment about how you're ungrateful and need to grow up. The dialogue/AI in this game is just on a whole other level to other computer games. I love it when they say "Be Advised!". Doom is so utterly bland in comparison.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx2hpuuVEd8
Conclusion: Battlefield 3 is so good that it makes other shooters seem really rather terrible.
Question: Will there be another shooter in ten years time which makes Battlefield 3 seem really rather terrible?
Answer: No.
Your Excellency
Banned
Saiyar said:
How so? Portal is a great game. Portal 2 expands it, making it better in every single way. It gives you more freedom with your tools and so makes it less linear (eg the gel which allows you to put portals anywhere, the repulsion gels etc), it's funnier, the AI of the characters is astounding, the graphics are fantastic, it's paced brilliantly. The main things Portal 1 has going for it are the original premise and Still Alive. Even though the ending to Portal 2 is amazing.
NullPointer
Member
I've honestly asked that question about every dungeon I've ever traipsed through in a video game. None of them ever make a lick of sense.Your Excellency said:
I've always had a soft spot for games that explain their gaminess in ways that fit their fiction.
Your Excellency
Banned
Corky said:
You're comparing apples with oranges.
I'm comparing Granny Smiths with Red Delicious.
like a dragon
Banned
Your Excellency said:
Portal 2 isn't even in the same league as Ico. 10 years from now people will still be talking about Ico while the same thing cant be said about portal 2 or portal 1 for that matter.
Stephen Stills
Member
Bitch those be fighting words.dwu8991 said:
theDeeDubs
Member
dwu8991 said:
I'd like to know how much money my family and I spent on this game. Actually scratch that, I don't.
Your Excellency
Banned
NullPointer said:
Agreed. And so when you played Portal and Portal 2, didn't you think it was kinda fucking awesome how all the dungeons and intricate puzzles did actually make some kind of sense? It's one of the highlights of this game in comparison to others in the genre.
Massive Nights
Member
You're getting some butt-hurt types in here, but you made some good points, well said.
To Far Away Times
Member
The originality, humor, and quick packing of Portal 1 place it slightly above portal 2 for me, though I like both games a lot.Your Excellency said:
Your Excellency
Banned
Massive Nights said:
Thanks. Neogaf is all about the groupthink. You need to convince one person at a time, til you reach the tipping point at which everyone agrees that Portal 2 brings out the flaws in Ico.
NullPointer
Member
I never thought about it until now, which is a compliment to Valve. Just another well reasoned design consideration that I accepted whole cloth without realizing it.Your Excellency said:
They're good at that ;P
Alex Connolly
Member
I personally think tone and perhaps a dash of authorial intent goes a long way to define each game mentioned in the OP as their own thing with their own goals and established atmospheres.
If you break it down to sheer mechanics, you're going to come to perhaps good objective conclusions, but be way off base at the same time.
Maybe I'm missing something, or perhaps I'm in the wrong mood for the OP to read as a profound critique. It comes off merely as a well-written oddball piece. Interesting, though.
If you break it down to sheer mechanics, you're going to come to perhaps good objective conclusions, but be way off base at the same time.
Maybe I'm missing something, or perhaps I'm in the wrong mood for the OP to read as a profound critique. It comes off merely as a well-written oddball piece. Interesting, though.
Your Excellency said:
You still haven't quite grasped that ICO is an adventure game, and Portal 2 a puzzle game, have you?
Also, I think you're overlooking the fact that ICO is held in high regard because of the emotional impact it had/has on players.
Many factors influence this: atmosphere, sound-design, interaction, animation, exploration, themes, characters.
It's not just about the puzzles, though personally I loved the puzzles as well.
You blow up a bridge in ICO to create a way to cross a gap, help Yorda over obstacles (some more natural, some man-made) she couldn't get over by herself by manipulating various different objects in the environments etc. etc. It's not all just pushing blocks and pulling levers.
Also, I think the castle in ICO is as much for keeping people from entering the castle as it is to keep them from escaping it.
Also, I think the castle in ICO is as much for keeping people from entering the castle as it is to keep them from escaping it.
vodka-bull
Member
After playing Bayonetta, God of War 3 seemed really rather terrible.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Your Excellency said:
I...
Joke character, right? We're having a laugh here, right? "An older good game is bad because a new mostly different game is also good."
Risk Breaker
Member
vodka-bull said:
It's more like... after playing God of War 3, Bayonetta seems really fucking fantastic and superior to everything.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
Your Excellency said:
After playing GTA 4, GTA 2 seems really rather terrible. (Which is a shorter time-gap than Ico and Portal 2)
XANDER CAGE
Member
Your Excellency said:
The explanation in Portal 2 is "things are wacky and gamey because Aperture was fucking insane"
That's not really a deep explanation. It's tongue-in-cheek lampshading.
shagg_187 said:
I know the cult around ICO. I read the first post, and it raises some very valid points and criticisms.Haunted said:
Of course Gaf then proceeds to completely ignore everything that was said and instead ridicule the OP. The "delusional fanboy" who started this thread actually backed up his opinion in a coherent manner.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
amdnv said:
I actually backed up my opinion in a coherent manner too. I did not ignore a single thing in the OP and read it at least twice to make sure what I'm reading is making sense. Not only that but I decided to add more to my post but showing how ridiculous this comparison is.
Risk Breaker
Member
Your Excellency said:
How many games have you actually played? Because explaining and making sense of the game world and mechanics happens quite often.
XANDER CAGE
Member
amdnv said:
Not really. For one thing, Ico not explaining any of its own conventions is part of the tone of the game. Likewise, Portal 2's lampshading of conventions is cleverly tied into the tone and script of the game. They're striving for different things entirely.
Massive Nights
Member
shagg_187 said:
To be honest, in the context of the original post, this doesn't make a lick of sense.
Dark Machine
Member
amdnv said:
Just because he was coherent doesn't mean he isn't a massive troll.
Mao Zedong was coherent. He was still a massive troll.
To Far Away Times
Member
After playing Ninja Gaiden Black, all other action games just aren't the same anymore.Risk Breaker said: