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[onken]

That light bridge puzzle wasn't so bad. Right before the puzzle there's a linear path between 2 areas which showcases her bridge-summoning abilities.

In any case it was obvious you were supposed to take her up there because all your shenanigans on the top floors were just to turn off the water on the slope, leading you directly there.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

To be honest, in the context of the original post, this doesn't make a lick of sense.

It makes perfect sense.

ICO: September 24, 2001.
Portal 2: April 19, 2011.

10 years. 10 fucking years, on an inferior hardware, a smaller dev team, and completely different circumstances. Just cause it's been rereleased doesn't make it any different or better. You can't patch in or fix the updates either.

Not everyone out there is as philosophical about releasing when it's done as Valve, especially in a console studio in 2001.

You don't go around comparing FIFA '99 with FIFA '09. It's a logical understanding that a game released 10 years ago will never be as error-free as game released today.

The reason everyone is so "butt-hurt" is that this comparison is totally unjustified.

It's like saying "How Star Trek reboot is better than The Wrath of Khan". FUCK NO! FUCK NO, IT AIN'T! It can be technologically better, it can be visually better but considering the time it was released and under the circumstances and the technology available, you can never make such statement with a sane mind.

 

[Your Excellency]

I'd be interested to see if Portal 2 stirs up as much love and devotion amongst its fans 10 years after its release as ICO does now.

This post actually gets to the heart of the matter. The reason that everyone is acting offended right now is because Ico is currently up on it's pedestal as a True Classic. They treat Ico as it if was the Sistine Chapel of gaming. Thus, anyone who criticises Ico knows nothing about gaming.

But if you truly love gaming, then you'll know that gaming isn't like other art forms. Gaming is different to everything else because it's always been restricted to the technology of that generation. Goya wasn't limited by his tools when he painted Colossus, and if he was alive today he probably would have painted it exactly the same way. But gaming is different because if the designers of Ico had had the tools of the PS4 when they made Ico, it would have been a very different game. So let's stop ignoring the flaws of these games - which are partly borne from the technical restrictions of the time - and start judging these games a bit more accurately. Because if Ico is a 10/10 game, then what the fuck does that make Portal 2? 13/10?

A game which may have been a 10/10 game at the time of its release might not always be a 10/10 game. Gran Turismo was a 10/10 game when it first came out, but now it seems cartoonish and the cars don't feel quite right. Instead of pretending that it's an eternal classic, we need to accept that games don't work that way. Colossus will always be a masterpiece, but Shadow of the Colossus probably won't.

 

[Captain_Spanky]

They are.


In both games, you're in a room/series of rooms which you need to escape. There is only one way out, and it involves using your own tools and the elements of the room to figure out a way to reach+open the exit door. The 'gameplay' involved is figuring out how to do it.


It's the same way that COD and Medal of Honour are fundementally the same games, and how Daytona and Sega Rally are fundamentally the same games. By trying to deny it, you're only making yourself look incredibly foolish. But I enjoy watching you try, so that's cool.

If you're reductionist enough you can make anything similar.

Tetris and Mario are the same because they are, essentially, manoeuvring pieces the game gives you in to places you want them. Over time the piece changes and you have to adapt to the landscape of the game.

Chicken Korma and Coffee are the same because you add cream to both at the end.

And so on and so on.

 

[Your Excellency]

If you're reductionist enough you can make anything similar.

Tetris and Mario are the same because they are, essentially, manoeuvring pieces the game gives you in to places you want them. Over time the piece changes and you have to adapt to the landscape of the game.

Chicken Korma and Coffee are the same because you add cream to both at the end.

And so on and so on.

And the award for Worst Argument goes to...

 

[theDeeDubs]

I know the cult around ICO. I read the first post, and it raises some very valid points and criticisms.

Of course Gaf then proceeds to completely ignore everything that was said and instead ridicule the OP. The "delusional fanboy" who started this thread actually backed up his opinion in a coherent manner.

It's going to take a lot more than a coherent manner to convince me an inferior sequel to a Half-Life 2 puzzle mod makes a masterpiece seem terrible.

Few games hold up. Even some of my once all-time favorites like Deus Ex, I'll even admit don't hold up today. Ico holds up.

 

[Sealda]

Portal 2 got nothing on this

but yeah, ICO had some terrible and frustrating "puzzles". Such as the magic bridge and some terrible trial and error jumps etc.

 

[Captain_Spanky]

And the award for Worst Argument goes to...

You? I was just doing what you were doing. Thread over?

 

[To Far Away Times]

This post actually gets to the heart of the matter. The reason that everyone is acting offended right now is because Ico is currently up on it's pedestal as a True Classic. They treat Ico as it if was the Sistine Chapel of gaming. Thus, anyone who criticises Ico knows nothing about gaming.

But if you truly love gaming, then you'll know that gaming isn't like other art forms. Gaming is different to everything else because it's always been restricted to the technology of that generation. Goya wasn't limited by his tools when he painted Colossus, and if he was alive today he probably would have painted it exactly the same way. But gaming is different because if the designers of Ico had had the tools of the PS4 when they made Ico, it would have been a very different game. So let's stop ignoring the flaws of these games - which are partly borne from the technical restrictions of the time - and start judging these games a bit more accurately. Because if Ico is a 10/10 game, then what the fuck does that make Portal 2? 13/10?

A game which may have been a 10/10 game at the time of its release might not always be a 10/10 game. Gran Turismo was a 10/10 game when it first came out, but now it seems cartoonish and the cars don't feel quite right. Instead of pretending that it's an eternal classic, we need to accept that games don't work that way. Colossus will always be a masterpiece, but Shadow of the Colossus probably won't.

The gameplay of Ico is somewhat dated but the emotional connection that Ico establishes for many players is just as strong in 2011 as it was in 2001.

 

[lastendconductor]

Why are you even comparing these two games? anyway, I thought Portal 2 was fun, but after 1 the novelty was just not there, it was repetitive even with all the new gimmicks.
As for ICO, ICO is awesome.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

This post actually gets to the heart of the matter. The reason that everyone is acting offended right now is because Ico is currently up on it's pedestal as a True Classic. They treat Ico as it if was the Sistine Chapel of gaming. Thus, anyone who criticises Ico knows nothing about gaming.

But if you truly love gaming, then you'll know that gaming isn't like other art forms. Gaming is different to everything else because it's always been restricted to the technology of that generation. Goya wasn't limited by his tools when he painted Colossus, and if he was alive today he probably would have painted it exactly the same way. But gaming is different because if the designers of Ico had had the tools of the PS4 when they made Ico, it would have been a very different game. So let's stop ignoring the flaws of these games - which are partly borne from the technical restrictions of the time - and start judging these games a bit more accurately. Because if Ico is a 10/10 game, then what the fuck does that make Portal 2? 13/10?

A game which may have been a 10/10 game at the time of its release might not always be a 10/10 game. Gran Turismo was a 10/10 game when it first came out, but now it seems cartoonish and the cars don't feel quite right. Instead of pretending that it's an eternal classic, we need to accept that games don't work that way. Colossus will always be a masterpiece, but Shadow of the Colossus probably won't.

Uh, classical art is very much a product of its time. Also, nobody rates paintings and sculptures on a 10 point scale, so that point is entirely moot. Movies that broke ground in special effects don't look as hot after ten years, but we still remember them as products of their time with excellent handiwork -of the period-.

Also, Goya was absolutely limited by his tools. Classical painters didn't have access to layers, saving their artwork, scanning copies, and many other comforts artists have today. Art is always a product of what people have available to them, whether or not they choose to use older materials or methods.

 

[Your Excellency]

Exactly. And if you really need somewhat a logical explanation, there's always the fact that the castle is essentially a prison for horned boys who aren't supposed to, y'know, exit at their own leisure in the event they somehow manage to escape those sarcophagi (sarcophaguses?) they're put in in the first place.

Same goes for

Spoiler

Yorda, who is locked up in a cage at the beginning and we're explicitly told by the Queen she is not to leave the castle under any circumstance

. Of course it's going to be hard to traverse. Videogame logic, but logic nevertheless.

I can't make heads or tails of this comparison anyway.

If it's a prison, then why did they design an intricate way of escape, via levers and floor-buttons?

 

[The_Endgamer]

Ico was shit. Such a boring letdown of a game.
Got about 30mins in and just didn't care at all during my time with it.
*adds oil*

Still awaiting the day to play Portal 2 tho.

 

[Yusaku]

I can see it now, Ico 2, with The Queen playing the part of GLaDOS. GOTY 2012. Thanks op.

 

[Majmun]

But if you truly love gaming, then you'll know that gaming isn't like other art forms. Gaming is different to everything else because it's always been restricted to the technology of that generation.

So you don't really love gaming? Because you are comparing a 10 year old game with a recently released one..

 

[toythatkills]

1. Why do all these intricate dungeon puzzles even exist?

Because it's a videogame


2. There is no genuine 'puzzle solving' in Ico.

Yes there is. You're comparing the simplest most basic puzzle in Ico to a complex one in Portal 2. Portal has its fair share of "put the block on the button and the door opens" puzzles, and they're often not much harder to solve than finding the right place to put a Portal. The only puzzles I ever got stuck on in P2 were the ones where I had to look off in the distance to find a place for a Portal.


When you get stuck in Portal 2, it's your own stupid fault. When you get stuck in ICO, it's the game's fault.

"There's no genuine 'puzzle solving' in Ico, so here's a puzzle I got stuck on and because I couldn't solve it I'm going to blame the game for it instead."


4. All the other little things.

You're comparing completely different experiences. Ico is a game that's focussed on the atmosphere, Portal is a comedy. It's ridiculous. Would you like Ico more if it called you an idiot at every turn? It would ruin the game.


Conclusion: Your points are so ill-thought out that they make Paris Hilton look like one of the great thinkers of our time.

Question: Will there be another thread in ten years time which makes this one seem really rather good?

Answer: No.

 

[Seth Balmore]

If it's a prison, then why did they design an intricate way of escape, via levers and floor-buttons?

Because if there isn't a way of escaping, there'd be no premise and therefore no videogame.

Why does GLaDOS act completely out of character and

Spoiler

kick Chell out of Aperture at the end of Portal 2 despite her only desire being having a human to test with until said human expires

? Because if there isn't a way of escaping at the end, there'd be no motivation (storyline wise) and therefore no engaging, "deep" videogame. It'd just be a collection of brain-teasers.

If that's not satisfying enough for you, then I'll go ahead with the (silly, but plausible) in-game justification: people need to enter and traverse this prison somehow to incarcerate the horned boys and leave after that. There's your reason for the levers and floor panels.

 

[Yusaku]

After playing Portal 2 I realize that I love both Portal 2 and Ico and that we all live in a harmonious universe of awesomeness.

 

[Your Excellency]

Also, Goya was absolutely limited by his tools. Classical painters didn't have access to layers, saving their artwork, scanning copies, and many other comforts artists have today. Art is always a product of what people have available to them, whether or not they choose to use older materials or methods.

I'm not comparing classical art to the sort of modern art made in Photoshop, I'm comparing classical paintings to contemporary painting. Essentially it's the same processes, tools and paints.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

If it's a prison, then why did they design an intricate way of escape, via levers and floor-buttons?

Because it's a fucking video game. Believe it or not, video games don't need to be airtight representations of reality.

I'm not comparing classical art to the sort of modern art made in Photoshop, I'm comparing classical paintings to contemporary painting. Essentially it's the same processes, tools and paints.

Still very different. Modern painters don't have to mix their own paint. They're also restricting themselves to an old and established medium of art. It's akin to that guy who put out a Genesis game last year.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Because if there isn't a way of escaping, there'd be no premise and therefore no videogame.

Dude, you need to justify nowadays why a video game exists.

Didn't you hear? Super Mario Bros. is the WORST game out there. What's with the pipes? Why does a plumber kill all those creatures. Why is Bowser capturing princess? Why is mushroom making you bigger.

Fucking Nintendo are such hacks...

 

[To Far Away Times]

I'm not comparing classical art to the sort of modern art made in Photoshop, I'm comparing classical paintings to contemporary painting. Essentially it's the same processes, tools and paints.

If a painting can get a strong emotion out of you, it is a good painting, regardless of the era.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

If a painting can get a strong emotion out of you, it is a good painting, regardless of the era.

Pfft. Mona Lisa is shit compared to Banksy.

 

[Yusaku]

Question for the OP: so you loved Ico and that it was specifically only Portal 2 that made you realize that it was a piece of trash? Or can you admit that this thread only exists as troll bait?

 

[Mush]

Thanks. Neogaf is all about the groupthink. You need to convince one person at a time, til you reach the tipping point at which everyone agrees that Portal 2 brings out the flaws in Ico.

So obviously all the critics and "game journalists" are wrong too, right? ICO isn't just praised here, it's has been cherished for many years by gamers and industry watchdogs everywhere, and I'm sure that it will continue to be regarded as a "classic".

You're not a fan of ICO? That's cool, but you don't need to come in here and attempt to convince us that somehow ICO is now a mediocre game simply because a newer one has been released.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Pfft. Mona Lisa is shit compared to Banksy.

After looking at Starry Night, ancient cave paintings seem really rather terrible.

 

[amdnv]

I actually backed up my opinion in a coherent manner too.

You did not. In an attempt to closely mirror the sentence structure of the OP, you came up with many rather ridiculous points.
Doom is a classic. But there is not blind cult following that puts the game above most everything else. If you asked 100 Gafers to choose between Battlefield 3 and Doom, I'd be surprised if more than 10% picked Doom.

 

[areal]

But if you truly love gaming, then you'll know that gaming isn't like other art forms. Gaming is different to everything else because it's always been restricted to the technology of that generation.

This doesn't make sense. What art form isn't "restricted to the technology of that generation"?

 

[XANDER CAGE]

You did not. In an attempt to closely mirror the sentence structure of the OP, you came up with many rather ridiculous points.
Doom is a classic. But there is not blind cult following that puts the game above most everything else. If you asked 100 Gafers to choose between Battlefield 3 and Doom, I'd be surprised if more than 10% picked Doom.

I dunno, after that beta...

 

[toythatkills]

This doesn't make sense. What art form isn't "restricted to the technology of that generation"?

Beethoven would totally have written the fifth on electric guitar if he could have.

 

[Alex Connolly]

This doesn't make sense. What art form isn't "restricted to the technology of that generation"?

Get your hands off that Vectrex!

 

[Goldmund]

[...]

1. Why do all these intricate dungeon puzzles even exist?

What Portal 2 did is explain why all the clever puzzles exist in their universe. It's because they were test chambers, designed to allow humans to test out these new scientific advances to do things they couldn't before. We don't know EVERYTHING about the intentions behind the makers, but we know enough for it to make sense. The rest of the mystery is open enough to allow us to find out little details about it as we go along.

In Ico, we're to presume that SOMEBODY spent loads of money and time pointlessly building this fortress full of puzzles. The game always feels completely and utterly artificial as a result.
[...]

You make it seem as if the enigma surrounding the characters and locales in Ico wasn't a deliberate narrative choice. Ico is mimesis, Portal 2 diegesis. If you prefer the latter, that doesn't make the prior inferior. Ico doesn't ask you to presume anything, that's the beauty of it. I personally feel the world in Ico is more believable, because there are no explanations for every little thing. It treats what raises the most questions as self-evident. That's neither lazy nor will it ever come out-of-vogue. It's a very elegant and effective trick.

 

[vodka-bull]

It's more like... after playing God of War 3, Bayonetta seems really fucking fantastic and superior to everything.

Unfortunately, I chose to play Bayonetta first...

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

And the award for Worst Argument goes to...

You?

 

[Combichristoffersen]

You did not. In an attempt to closely mirror the sentence structure of the OP, you came up with many rather ridiculous points.
Doom is a classic. But there is not blind cult following that puts the game above most everything else. If you asked 100 Gafers to choose between Battlefield 3 and Doom, I'd be surprised if more than 10% picked Doom.

I'd take OG Doom over the entire BF series any day

 

[Dyni Crippler]

Now, I haven't played Ico (at least not much), but I can say two things:
1) Portal 2 and Ico are as similiar as Dark Souls is similiar to Ninja Gaiden;
2) After playing Formula 1 2010, I have to say Monkey Island looks reaaaaally bad. What were they thinking?

 

[Ushojax]

After playing A Little Bit of Dr Kawashima's Brain Training: Maths Editon, El Shaddai: Ascension of the Metatron seems really rather terrible. It's almost as if they are two different games, developed by different people with a decade in between.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

You did not. In an attempt to closely mirror the sentence structure of the OP, you came up with many rather ridiculous points.
Doom is a classic. But there is not blind cult following that puts the game above most everything else. If you asked 100 Gafers to choose between Battlefield 3 and Doom, I'd be surprised if more than 10% picked Doom.

Oh boy... Here we go. Let the voting commence! Doom vs. Battlefield 3.

My vote goes to Doom.

 

[To Far Away Times]

I'd take OG Doom over the entire BF series any day

Ditto. You could actually throw the entire military FPS genre in there while your at it.

 

[Gravijah]

alright op, i'll be playing ico for the first time in the coming weeks. i played portal 2 earlier this year. we shall see which is better!

 

[amdnv]

Because if there isn't a way of escaping, there'd be no premise and therefore no videogame.

Because it's a fucking video game.

And that's the "explanation" right there. Roger Ebert was right all along it seems.

 

[Your Excellency]

I didn't even like Ico, and Portal 2 is my GotY, but this is a really silly point. If you applied this across the board you'd hate 99% of video games.

Puzzles exist in Ico because it's a video game based around puzzles.

Yes, exactly this. But Portal 2 is a game changer, because suddenly, the puzzles exist for a reason. It all comes together as a cohesive whole. They've managed to work the standard conventions of gaming into the storyline, by having the levels, the design, the solutions, the hints, all make sense. And what this does is make other games, which didn't explain that stuff, seem poorer as a result. That is the crux of this thread: after playing Portal 2, other puzzle games which don't make any logical sense now seem silly and senseless.


It's the same with the mechanics of Portal 2's puzzles. By having puzzles which you need to solve by thinking, rather than by 'put block a into hole b', it's revolutionised the puzzle genre.

It'll be interesting to see what Uncharted 3 plays like now, because I recall one of the few criticisms that gave received was that the platforming was too linear. There wasn't a whole wall you could climb to get to a certain platform, there was just a set a handholds, so it was completely basic and required no real thought. All you had to do was look for the handholds and climb them, because they would always take you to their destination. I'm hoping they play around with this for UC3 to require you to have to think about how to reach a balcony or whatever (but I guess that might create pacing issues if they're too hard).

 

[Dyni Crippler]

Oh boy... Here we go. Let the voting commence! Doom vs. Battlefield 3.

My vote goes to Doom.

That's an easy one. BF3 looks decent at best.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Ditto. You could actually throw the entire military FPS genre in there while your at it.

Agreed *brofist*

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

2. There is no genuine 'puzzle solving' in Ico.

This is how you solve a puzzle in Ico: look for an object that you can do something with: i.e. a block. Then put that block in the nearby floor-button. It helps because there is only one floor button to put it in, so essentially you can't get it wrong. One block, one floor button. It's about as linear as puzzle solving gets, and so much of the game is like this.

If you see a rope, you climb up it, which takes you to a platform. At this point, there's no lateral thinking involved to get to the next platform, it's simply a case of pulling a lever/climbing a foothold. There's never a choice between a lever and a foothold, as the game is so simplistic and linear that it's practically on rails, and it pretty much directs you where to go itself.

In comparison, with Portal 2 you have to use your HEAD to think about how to solve the puzzle. It's not a case of 'I need to push this floor-button, oh obviously I do it with the block that is sitting 2 feet away', it's a case of 'HOW do I keep these two buttons pushed down when there is only one block, and even that block disintegrates every time I try to bring it across the barrier, and to make it worse I have to do it whilst avoiding the gun turrets. But I have at my disposal a portal gun and some paint which allows me to turn regular walls into portal-walls'. Essentially, you can't just sleepwalk through Portal 2. You have to solve the puzzle. Not sleepwalk through the puzzle.

With Ico's block/switch puzzles, the real puzzle lies in not figuring out what you need to do, but rather deciphering how you get the block to that switch. Knowing instinctively what you have to do and where your end goal lies (while letting you figure out how to do it by yourself) is the hallmark of good puzzle design.

Shadow of the Colossus is much the same in that respect. You know where the boss' weakspot lies and what you need to do (climb and stab), but the real puzzle lies on figuring out how to climb up that colossus.

With Portal 2. A lot of its puzzles suffer from not clearly labelling where the end goal is and you end up spending a lot of time having to figure out where the exit or end goal state (the final element or switch that needs to be active) is, rather than actually solving the puzzle.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Yes, exactly this. But Portal 2 is a game changer, because suddenly, the puzzles exist for a reason.

Tell me why video game mechanics need to be contextualized.

 

[Seth Balmore]

And that's the "explanation" right there. Roger Ebert was right all along it seems.

If we reduce everything to absurdity, that's the explanation, yes. But I also did provide a simple contextualized explanation for people who aren't satisfied.

 

[Igo]

The gameplay of Ico is somewhat dated but the emotional connection that Ico establishes for many players is just as strong in 2011 as it was in 2001.

This is why i'll be replaying Ico for the 4th time when the HD collection is released, and why I haven't really touched Portal 1 since I beat it.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I've never played Ico so I can't talk about it but it's true that Portal 2, like any other great game, has shaped my opinion and my expectations I have for other games in the same vein. I don't see why there was a need to make a thread about this though.

 

[Gravijah]

also, the best part of portal 2 isn't the puzzles it's traversing through a gigantic science compound place thing.