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[Fantasmo]

Alcohol has such an incredible diverse range of tastes and flavors and its casual consumption method has made it a social drug of choice. With alcohol there is the weight of the culture (and inertia thereof), weight of taste, and weight of acceptable consumption, for starters. Arguing any less than that is to miss a solid chunk of the bigger picture.

Also, enough with the "booze is bad, tastes bad" posts. There's never any substance involved when someone who's either a teetotaler or had a few sips of bad booze is making "objective" claims about the taste of alcohol.

Teetoler? I looooooooooooooooooove alcohol. So much that I became an alcoholic. Had it all mang, the cheap stuff and the good stuff. Had a rich buddy that used to pop open $200 bottles of wine twice a week. Same buddy would crack open really really expensive bottles of liquor for special occasions and always had a great bartender at the party. Another buddy that delivers high quality beers and gets cases for free. Hell I had three of those this past weekend (beers not cases). They were amazing for beer, but it was still beer. The additions made it taste not as much like any other regular beer. The only real difference between the good stuff and the bad stuff is the good stuff doesn't really taste like the bad stuff. Again, the higher the quality, the less the rocket fuel-y it is. I mean, fine, call me full of it if you really believe it, but it's the effect you're after, because you wouldn't touch it without the effects, alcohol is just good at making you gag.

In the sense that you might want a lighter drink or a different tasting drink fine (like milk vs oj vs soda vs water or whatever), but I can't be convinced anyone would drink any alcoholic beverage if it didn't get you drunk or buzzed.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

I mean, please do! This is a learning experience for me. It's obvious I know nothing about alcohol. That's why I'm here.

The problem is, to enjoy good beer, you really do need to get over the hump. Bitter isn't a taste you can just drink to. If you jump to an IPA, you would hate it.

My recommendation for a good beer to be introduced to: Boddington's. Creamy and not so much with the bitter. Either on draft in a bar or the pint cans, it should be good.

 

[Eusis]

Because way back when, alcohol was a necessity. St. Paul told one of the early churches to mix some wine into their water so the alcohol would kill the bacteria that was causing some nasty disease that was going around.

Yeah, alcohol was and is still very useful, even if we don't need it for disinfecting food as much it's still quite useful for cleaning or treating wounds.

 

[BigEvilTurtle]

The problem is, to enjoy good beer, you really do need to get over the hump. Bitter isn't a taste you can just drink to. If you jump to an IPA, you would hate it.

My recommendation for a good beer to be introduced to: Boddington's. Creamy and not so much with the bitter. Either on draft in a bar or the pint cans, it should be good.

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll have to try it sometime. Perhaps I'll like it!

 

[terribletwo]

Because got damn beer is good

 

[umop_3pisdn]

Eh, are we sure it is? It is currently because alcohol is legal and widespread and heroin and cocaine are not. If buying heroin was as easy and accessible as going to the liquor store...I dunno

They're difficult to compare, none of them are good for you. But the most significant mortal risk from using heroin has to do with the potential to accidentally overdose particularly because street drugs are of an uncertain potency. If heroin were legalized it would have a standardized potency which would essentially eliminate 'accidental' overdoses. It would also remove a person from the 'culture' of drug use (ie: shady shit) since they could get it through more legitimate means, and in the process it would increase their proximity to addictions services and counseling. I don't think a lot of people will necessarily jump at the idea of doing something fairly extreme just because it's legal.

 

[The Technomancer]

They're difficult to compare, none of them are good for you. But the most significant mortal risk from using heroin has to do with the potential to accidentally overdose particularly because street drugs are of an uncertain potency. If heroin were legalized it would have a standardized potency which would essentially eliminate 'accidental' overdoses. It would also remove a person from the 'culture' of drug use (ie: shady shit) since they could get it through more legitimate means, and in the process it would increase their proximity to addictions services and counseling.

I'm thinking more about how easy it is to develop a heroin addiction (and the associated withdrawal effects thereof) compared to alcoholism and what effect that might have socially. I'm for drug decriminalization (jailing users is stupid) and definitely for expanding our treatment infrastructure to help people battle addition, but legal distribution is another matter to me.

 

[Davidion]

Teetoler? Lol I looooooooooooooooooove alcohol. So much that I became a raging alcoholic. Had it all mang, the cheap stuff and the good stuff. Had a rich buddy that used to pop open $200 bottles of wine twice a week. Same buddy would crack open really really expensive bottles of liquor for special occasions and always had a great bartender at the party. Another buddy that delivers high quality beers and gets cases for free. Hell I had three of those this past weekend. They were amazing for beer, but it was still beer. The additions made it taste not as much like any other regular beer. The only real difference between the good stuff and the bad stuff is the good stuff doesn't really taste like the bad stuff. Again, the higher the quality, the less the rocket fuel-y it is. I mean, fine, call me full of it if you really believe it, but it's the effect you're after, because you wouldn't touch it without the effects, alcohol is just good at making you gag.

In the sense that you might want a lighter drink or a different tasting drink fine (like milk vs oj vs soda vs water or whatever), but I can't be convinced anyone would drink any alcoholic beverage if it didn't get you drunk or buzzed.

Nonsense. Dryness is a flavor profile that people go for, same as sweetness. Suggesting that the "expensive stuff" doesn't taste like rocket fuel would involve ignoring plenty of top shelf alcohol that tastes incredibly dry and completely indistinguishable from "rocket fuel" grade alcohol to those with unaccustomed taste buds. As for the buzz, I've had plenty of casual social drinks which didn't do a damn thing to generate even a light buzz, and I knew it as such going in.

The presence of alcohol imparts flavors that non-alcoholic drinks can almost never match. Nevermind the o'douls, find me a single non-alcoholic beverage that has the flavors of a flemish ale, nevermind the world of diverse alcoholic drinks out there; then we can talk.

Judging by everything you said you have absolutely no grasp of how complex the flavors of good alcohol is. You're obviously free to drink or not drink whatever, but don't act like drinking some good wines and good beers makes you an expert on taste. I'm sorry to hear that you were an alcoholic, but plenty of people don't drink to chase the high. If that were true, any cheap drink would do. It's like saying people only eat to get full.

 

[brianjones]

i dont even like the taste of (hard) alcohol i just drink it for the feels

some beers are pretty good tho

 

[umop_3pisdn]

I'm thinking more about how easy it is to develop a heroin addiction (and the associated withdrawal effects thereof) compared to alcoholism and what effect that might have socially.

I think addictions generally have to be treated as more of a mental health issue rather than a drug issue, and minimizing death caused by drug use generally seems like a more humane concern to me. Physical addictions are rough but a person gets to that point through the habitual use of a crutch which is a much wider problem.

 

[The Technomancer]

I think addictions generally have to be treated as more of a mental health issue rather than a drug issue, and minimizing death caused by drug use generally seems like a more humane concern to me. Physical addictions are rough but a person gets to that point through the habitual use of a crutch which is a much wider problem.

What do you mean? In the case of drugs like heroin and meth the addiction is very much a physiological reaction to the substance, and I'm assuming you know this, so I'm not sure what you mean here.

 

[Fantasmo]

Nonsense. Dryness is a flavor profile that people go for, same as sweetness. Suggesting that the "expensive stuff" doesn't taste like rocket fuel would involve ignoring plenty of top shelf alcohol that tastes incredibly dry and completely indistinguishable from "rocket fuel" grade alcohol to those with unaccustomed taste buds. As for the buzz, I've had plenty of casual social drinks which didn't do a damn thing to generate even a light buzz, and I knew it as such going in.

The presence of alcohol imparts flavors that non-alcoholic drinks can almost never match. Nevermind the o'douls, find me a single non-alcoholic beverage that has the flavors of a flemish ale, nevermind the world of diverse alcoholic drinks out there; then we can talk.

Judging by everything you said you have absolutely no grasp of how complex the flavors of good alcohol is. You're obviously free to drink or not drink whatever, but don't act like drinking some good wines and good beers makes you an expert on taste. I'm sorry to hear that you were an alcoholic, but plenty of people don't drink to chase the high. If that were true, any cheap drink would do.

I do but I'm not about to list hundreds of beers, wines, and liquors in a stupid attempt to say that people like to get drunk with variety. Variety exists, but for the purpose of changing the intake method of drunk. I can bet thousands of dollars that I've had more variety than you've ever even dreamed of. Oh and alcoholism is a progressive thing that took over fifteen years. If non alcoholic alcohol was good it would at least have some share of the market, like diet coke or pulpy orange juice. Where's that market?

 

[umop_3pisdn]

What do you mean? In the case of drugs like heroin and meth the addiction is very much a physiological reaction to the substance, and I'm assuming you know this, so I'm not sure what you mean here.

People who have persistent issues with addictions are often treating other problems, their drug of choice is just their chosen medicine to alleviate their symptoms. So seeing drug use as the problem isn't often very accurate. Having an addiction is not an easy way to live, for a particularly 'sane' person the natural inertia is more to fall out of addiction because it is so miserable. To really address addiction we have to address the underlying issues they're trying to alleviate.

 

[The Technomancer]

People who have persistent issues with addictions are often treating other problems, their drug of choice is just their chosen medicine to alleviate their symptoms. So seeing drug use as the problem isn't often very accurate. Having an addiction is not an easy way to live, for a particularly 'sane' person the natural inertia is more to fall out of addiction because it is so miserable. To really address addiction we have to address the underlying issues they're trying to treat.

Ah, see, I don't think that if distribution becomes legal and the drugs increase in accessibility users will be limited to people with other issues that force them to a crutch. Hell, look at cigarettes. People seem to have no problem developing cigarette addictions, and those both don't have as great of a high and (I believe) aren't as rapidly addicting

 

[triplestation]

dmt makes great for party snacks

 

[dark_chris]

Because thats the way it is?
Alcohol has been around for years and people who take drugs (get high, get stupid) has been shunned cause of the people who use it and make it look like crap.

A typical drinker can be seen as anyone like a college person, a businessman or a man who fancies a drink. These kinds of things can be controlled where a person can be drinking in smaller amounts.

A typical drug user could be annoying, look like Lindsay Lohan, and/or cause more crap around them.

Thats my two cents. I dealt with people who are on drugs more than drinkers.

 

[FyreWulff]

Never saw the attraction to drinking. It tastes like bitter ass and smart people become blathering idiots for hours.

Can't stand being in relationships with people that drink for this reason. I don't want to talk to Jack Daniels for the rest of the night.

Also, it's strange how it's legal, yet it's one of the few things that will actually kill you if you stop cold turkey if you're addicted to it and constantly drinking.


To answer the OP, mostly because lobbying and people carrying the battleflags of long dead politicians

 

[Dipper145]

I'd get far too much work done if cocaine were legal and probably significantly cheaper.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

Ah, see, I don't think that if distribution becomes legal and the drugs increase in accessibility users will be limited to people with other issues that force them to a crutch. Hell, look at cigarettes. People seem to have no problem developing cigarette addictions, and those both don't have as great of a high and (I believe) aren't as rapidly addicting

The thing is that the reason the highs are so powerful is why people use them as a crutch, and also important is that there aren't just highs, there are corresponding 'lows' that are just as important for the broad picture. It could be a crash, dissociative effects and blunted emotionality, or through tolerance the drug just stops working, etc. These things make these sorts of drugs effectively impractical for a person that doesn't need them. The highs are so powerful that one can't live a balanced life while under their influence, and the lows and watching your life pass you by in the time that you were absent make you pay. Smoking is comparatively innocuous, not from a general health perspective, but it's not really a very effective avenue for temporarily escaping your despair.

 

[Amalthea]

A society seems to need at least one legal drug.
And it happens to be alcohol.

 

[freenudemacusers]

dmt makes great for party snacks

Can I come over

 

[The Technomancer]

The thing is that the reason the highs are so powerful is why people use them as a crutch, and also important is that there aren't just highs, there are corresponding 'lows' that are just as important. It could be a crash, dissociative effects and blunted emotionality, or through tolerance the drug just stops working, etc. Smoking is comparatively innocuous, not from a general health perspective, but it's not really a very effective avenue for temporarily escaping your despair.

I guess I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying here. But I also don't believe that accessible powerful drugs will only be used by these kinds of people. And even if you're right and most "normal" people burn out and try to quit, we as society will still probably lend them a hand. And we should. But I'd like to head things off at the pass, preventative instead of reactive action.

 

[Davidion]

I do but I'm not about to list hundreds of beers, wines, and liquors in a stupid attempt to say that people like to get drunk with variety. Variety exists, but for the purpose of changing the intake method of drunk. I can bet thousands of dollars that I've had more variety than you've ever even dreamed of. Oh and alcoholism is a progressive thing, it doesn't happen in one day, one week, or even one year. I've had countless one drink extravaganzas before it went downhill.

I'd love to make that bet. Sorry, if you're that experienced with alcohol, then you already know how often people don't drink just to chase drunkenness, unless you constantly hang around with people who don't know how to drink otherwise.

There's a whole world of drinkers who aren't constantly chasing highs. The idea that people only drink just to get drunk, or that they "fool themselves" into thinking that alcohol taste good is total unsubstantiated bullshit.

 

[victreeb3l]

Beats me. You are literally paying to get poisoned. Its not even like the induced feelings are natural either, there have been studies showing that cigs only feel good because of the nicotine dependency that they've created. The "relaxation" is just in response to the tension of the nicotine craving.

I fucking hate cigarettes. One of the most despicable legal industries on the planet IMO

indeed. theres also the whole thing about how alcohol marketed everywhere but you cant advertise cigarettes. such a clusterfuck and i feel like it pretty much boils down to which industry has more money to throw around

 

[umop_3pisdn]

I guess I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying here. But I also don't believe that accessible powerful drugs will only be used by these kinds of people. And even if you're right and most "normal" people burn out and try to quit, we as society will still probably lend them a hand. And we should. But I'd like to head things off at the pass, preventative instead of reactive action.

I think that's wise. If there are people that we can discourage from doing these things, it is arguably our responsibility as a society concerned with human welfare to do so. But I think that usually comes down to just sending the right message. The reason morals generally have power over people is because they see the value in them for themselves, so this seems to me like it will be an issue of education. And where the education fails for whatever reason, there will always be people willing to take this kind of risk.

 

[Fantasmo]

I'd love to make that bet. Sorry, if you're that experienced with alcohol, then you already know how often people don't drink just to chase drunkenness, unless you constantly hang around with people who don't know how to drink otherwise.

There's a whole world of drinkers who aren't constantly chasing highs. The idea that people only drink just to get drunk, or that they "fool themselves" into thinking that alcohol taste good is total unsubstantiated bullshit.

I can also list tens of different variations of what a hit of ecstasy feels like or different cigarettes or different flavored cigarettes or cigars taste like. Its still all pretty samey when you get down to it. Whatever I guess being an alcohol conoisseur is your hobby. Sorry to simplify an important topic of yours.

 

[Poimandres]

In the sense that you might want a lighter drink or a different tasting drink fine (like milk vs oj vs soda vs water or whatever), but I can't be convinced anyone would drink any alcoholic beverage if it didn't get you drunk or buzzed.

As someone who loves beer, I disagree.

After a long day out in the sun, a beer is extremelly refreshing. More so than any other drink, except arguably water. Under circumstances like those, it's entirely possible to drink for refreshment with no inclination towards getting drunk or buzzed.

 

[Kad5]

I think a good progressive first step would be to make our drug laws more like Portugal in regards to drug addiction.

They have something like 40% less addicts now.

 

[coldvein]

all drugs should be legal including alcohol. because fuck it thats why.

 

[Fantasmo]

As someone who loves beer, I disagree.

After a long day out in the sun, a beer is extremelly refreshing. More so than any other drink, except arguably water. Under circumstances like those, it's entirely possible to drink for refreshment with no inclination towards getting drunk or buzzed.

Sure, I've done that very same thing. What's funny about what you say is that if I play dumb, people will try to convince me and be nice. If I make an honest statement like "hey that beer may be refreshing because of the carbonation and liquid when it hits your mouth, but you know its actually dehydrating you right? Like the refreshment lasts until right before you're actually the complete opposite of refreshed, and in fact not refreshed at all which means now you're having another and now the buzz kicks in and whatever" and I get different responses.

Whatever, bed time for me.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

An acquired taste? That's stupid. Why would someone want to "acquire" a taste for something that tastes gross and damages your body? I suppose it makes sense if you enjoy getting drunk or buzzed, but I don't see the point otherwise.

Because even in a world where everything in the supermarket is laden with sugar (or HFCS if you're American), some people still don't want to be coddled like children by their food and drink. Chilli is toxic and painful, yet people acquire a taste for it and derive great enjoyment from spicy foods. Your point applies to people who drown their spirits with soft drink, but people can acquire tastes for alcoholic drinks because of their flavours and textures and not their intoxicating effects. Not all alcohol is vodka and there isn't really such a thing as an 'alcohol taste' that various drinks merely try to muffle or hide. Instead, the strength of a drink interacts with its constituent parts and creates new sensations. I don't want to imagine what a good single malt would taste like without alcohol, though I have a feeling it would be just as bad as one mixed with something like coke in order to try and supress the alcohol.